Tewaaraton Finalist

[Finster]

Is the award determined after Memorial Day or do voters need to make decisions before the post season has wrapped. We can all get bogged down on PPG and SOS, I would love to see Kirst get more love for his disruptiveness on the ride. But if we were giving more weight to intangibles and stats other than Goals/Assists then Adler would run away with it

EDIT: regarding the Fr D at Lehigh... looks like an impact player. His GB total is helped by being a FO wing on a team with a dominant FOGO. Valuable contribution to be sure, but to throw that out there in comparison to Adler who rarely is a wing is misleading

Looks to me like O' Neill is the leader at this point, but any early exit by any team, likely dooms their candidate. By the same token, someone, not now considered as likely, who has a hot tournament could win the thing unexpectedly. They vote after the tournament, so forget it, if you have an early exit. Who has Cornell beaten/played in the top 5 and the top 10? They may be really good, but their players haven't gotten their points against the same caliber of defenses that O' Neill and several others have. We will learn a lot about some of these non Big 10/ACC squads and players at the tournament one way or another.

^^agreed on all points here by blue Angel

[joewillie78]

Ok,the stats have been updated and Kirst has a fairly substantial in both goals per game .38, and even more separation in points per game at .43.

These stats show that he is a great scorer, great feeder, but what they dont show also are his impressive GB, and CTO stats, which is impressive for an attackman, which many times occurr with his impressive ride skills. He is simply just an all around great lax player and just not a scorer..

Gobigred
Joewillie78

[Gobigred]

They may be really good, but their players haven't gotten their points against the same caliber of defenses that O' Neill and several others have.

Like Bellarmine, High Point, Air Force and Merrimack?

[Finster]

They may be really good, but their players haven't gotten their points against the same caliber of defenses that O' Neill and several others have.

Like Bellarmine, High Point, Air Force and Merrimack?

I give Cornell a ton of credit on their schedule. No real creampuffs at all. The only teams where they assumed they’d win were Albany and Hobart. Outside those two (and even they weren’t bad), that’s a tough schedule.

One more on Dukes supposed softies in Joe’s post ^^. None of those teams have losing records.

[another fan]

I think the fact that there are three UVA attackman having big years who have an argument to win the Tewy (and the team hardly misses a beat when one of them is out/banged up) means that none of them should win the award. They've all got eachother to lean on and pick up the slack when necessary.

O'Neill and Kirst have more on their shoulders and not as talented of a support cast, IMO. That's not necessarily the criteria for the award — it should go to the best player, period — but for me that carries a lot of weight in a year when there is no clear-cut favorite like a Lyle Thompson or a Pat Spencer.

Going to respectfully disagree about Duke. They’ve got 7 players with more than 20 points. That doesn’t even include Schelling, who for my money is a phenomenal lacrosse player.

Agree

Very true for Kirst, though. Cornell has less offensive firepower, and everybody game plans to stop Kirst.

^^I’m of two minds about this post.

Yes I agree that defenses game plan for Kirst, and so it’s maybe not as easy to put points on the board when you’re the primary focus of a defense. I’d say all three primary Tewey candidates fall in this category: Kirst, Shellenberger, O’Neill.

But also, if you’re surrounded by a lot of other offensive talent all of whom are also looking to score (Duke, UVA), it can be even more difficult to rise above that crowd. You REALLY have to stand out.

I can argue both sides.

But the pie is bigger for Duke and UVA-- have not checked the numbers but I believe they both average significantly more points per game than Cornell.
I think O'Neill is the front runner with Kirst next. Both great players, and I agree the next couple games could decide the winner. One small aside. Both really want to get to their left hand and can often do it with their size, speed and skill. I admire what Kirst has done to work on his right hand and become much more of a threat going right as well.

[HopFan16]

I think the fact that there are three UVA attackman having big years who have an argument to win the Tewy (and the team hardly misses a beat when one of them is out/banged up) means that none of them should win the award. They've all got eachother to lean on and pick up the slack when necessary.

O'Neill and Kirst have more on their shoulders and not as talented of a support cast, IMO. That's not necessarily the criteria for the award — it should go to the best player, period — but for me that carries a lot of weight in a year when there is no clear-cut favorite like a Lyle Thompson or a Pat Spencer.

Going to respectfully disagree about Duke. They’ve got 7 players with more than 20 points. That doesn’t even include Schelling, who for my money is a phenomenal lacrosse player.

Virginia also has 7 players with more than 20 points.

Cormier and Dyson Williams are similar players so we'll call that a wash. The huge difference is Shellenberger has Dickson and Dickson has Shellenberger. O'Neill doesn't have a player like that. McAdorey is a solid attackman (49 pts, less than all three of the UVA guys), but he is not on that elite level. Virginia's higher end is significantly better than Duke's, IMO. Doesn't mean O'Neill is playing with scrubs or anything — obviously they have good players. But he has to do more heavy-lifting than any of the three UVA guys have to do individually.

PS: When Duke and UVA went head to head this year, O'Neill had 12 pts (9 in the first meeting, an absolutely dominating performance) and Duke won both games. Cormier had 10, Dickson had 8, Shellenberger had 6. And considering he sees defenses' top pole every game, it's even more impressive. Cormier and Dickson have both been intentionally shorted this year. Dumb strategy, but it's happened. Nobody in their right mind would ever consider shorting O'Neill.

[blue angels]

They may be really good, but their players haven't gotten their points against the same caliber of defenses that O' Neill and several others have.

Like Bellarmine, High Point, Air Force and Merrimack?

I am anything but a Duke or O’Neill fan, but recognize skill when I see it. That kid has it. I know Duke has played and beaten Virginia twice and also played Notre Dame, Cuse and UNC which are all top 10 type games. Cornell fans haven’t played anything close to the caliber of competition in 3 of those games that I can see. They get their insecure nose out of joint if anyone questions their team instead of responding how many top 5 or top 10 wins/losses they have and against whom.

[Lager]

That’s not the case with Cornell.

I think both Duke and UVA have far more depth than Cornell. The offensive statistics bear that out. If you are able to lock down Coyle and Kirst (granted, no small feat), are you really worried about the rest?

Umm what? Coyle had a nice start to the season but has been relatively quiet for awhile. Wirtheim, Kelleher, Long and maybe Blake are bigger threats than he is right now. Cornell has plenty of weapons on offense. Also, are we just assuming Duke is much better than Cornell? Don't they have one common opponent, Penn? Duke squeaked by, Cornell dominated.

[The Orfling]

Brennan O'Neill has been the best and most consistently dominant offensive player in the country, adjusted for level of competition. Kirst would be a close #2 for me. I think it goes to whichever of those two has the better NCAA tournament/whose team goes further.

Agreed. In a year where there's not a consensus winner (such as Pat Spencer or Dylan Molloy, both of whose teams lost in the quarterfinals), history tells us that the offensive finalist (if you're a FOGO or d-man, being a finalist seems to be regarded as your prize) whose team goes the furthest will be the winner, because the recency of the tournament run will carry the day. If UVA wins I think it goes to Shelley. With as great a year as Dickson and Cormier are having, Shellenberger is the #1 (Jerry Rice to the other guys' John Taylor).

[laxfan1313]

That’s not the case with Cornell.

I think both Duke and UVA have far more depth than Cornell. The offensive statistics bear that out. If you are able to lock down Coyle and Kirst (granted, no small feat), are you really worried about the rest?

Umm what? Coyle had a nice start to the season but has been relatively quiet for awhile. Wirtheim, Kelleher, Long and maybe Blake are bigger threats than he is right now. Cornell has plenty of weapons on offense. Also, are we just assuming Duke is much better than Cornell? Don't they have one common opponent, Penn? Duke squeaked by, Cornell dominated.

Coyle was called upon to score more when Long was out injured. The balanced scoring now existing is an advantage. Coyle remains second leading scorer on the team with 51 points and is the most balanced scorer with 25 goals and 26 assists. Being a scoring and feeding threat makes Billy extremely valuable. Someone pointed out that Virginia has 7 players with at least 20 points. Well, the Big Red has 7 players with at least 19 points. Cornell has two consensus first team All Americans strongly in the running for the Turnbull & Schmeisser awards respectively. Jack Cascadden has given Cornell more than its share of faceoff wins and is out groundballing its opponents by an average of 9 per game, with a season high of 49 vs Princeton.

[BigTom5]

Brennan O'Neill has been the best and most consistently dominant offensive player in the country, adjusted for level of competition. Kirst would be a close #2 for me. I think it goes to whichever of those two has the better NCAA tournament/whose team goes further.

Agreed. In a year where there's not a consensus winner (such as Pat Spencer or Dylan Molloy, both of whose teams lost in the quarterfinals), history tells us that the offensive finalist (if you're a FOGO or d-man, being a finalist seems to be regarded as your prize) whose team goes the furthest will be the winner, because the recency of the tournament run will carry the day. If UVA wins I think it goes to Shelley. With as great a year as Dickson and Cormier are having, Shellenberger is the #1 (Jerry Rice to the other guys' John Taylor).

Molloy lost in the semi’s in OT…

[keno in reno]

Brennan O'Neill has been the best and most consistently dominant offensive player in the country, adjusted for level of competition. Kirst would be a close #2 for me. I think it goes to whichever of those two has the better NCAA tournament/whose team goes further.

Agreed. In a year where there's not a consensus winner (such as Pat Spencer or Dylan Molloy, both of whose teams lost in the quarterfinals), history tells us that the offensive finalist (if you're a FOGO or d-man, being a finalist seems to be regarded as your prize) whose team goes the furthest will be the winner, because the recency of the tournament run will carry the day. If UVA wins I think it goes to Shelley. With as great a year as Dickson and Cormier are having, Shellenberger is the #1 (Jerry Rice to the other guys' John Taylor).

Shellenberger hasn't come close to O'Neill's level of domination this year. That is not an insult to CS, he is a great player leading a team full of great players. But O'Neill and Kirst are way ahead of #3, whoever that may be. Somebody from UVA certainly deserves to be nominated for the top 5, maybe even 2 Hoos deserve the top 5 if you want to limit it to offensive players. But getting a bunch of assists on this UVA team loaded with offensive talent is not the same as what O'Neill and Kirst are doing, at least as far as individual awards go. This late in the season, it should take more than "just" winning the national championship for CS to beat out the top 2 (and even his own teammate below that).

[The Orfling]

Brennan O'Neill has been the best and most consistently dominant offensive player in the country, adjusted for level of competition. Kirst would be a close #2 for me. I think it goes to whichever of those two has the better NCAA tournament/whose team goes further.

Agreed. In a year where there's not a consensus winner (such as Pat Spencer or Dylan Molloy, both of whose teams lost in the quarterfinals), history tells us that the offensive finalist (if you're a FOGO or d-man, being a finalist seems to be regarded as your prize) whose team goes the furthest will be the winner, because the recency of the tournament run will carry the day. If UVA wins I think it goes to Shelley. With as great a year as Dickson and Cormier are having, Shellenberger is the #1 (Jerry Rice to the other guys' John Taylor).

Shellenberger hasn't come close to O'Neill's level of domination this year. That is not an insult to CS, he is a great player leading a team full of great players. But O'Neill and Kirst are way ahead of #3, whoever that may be. Somebody from UVA certainly deserves to be nominated for the top 5, maybe even 2 Hoos deserve the top 5 if you want to limit it to offensive players. But getting a bunch of assists on this UVA team loaded with offensive talent is not the same as what O'Neill and Kirst are doing, at least as far as individual awards go. This late in the season, it should take more than "just" winning the national championship for CS to beat out the top 2 (and even his own teammate below that).

I hear you, and for what it's worth I agree with your ranking of #1 and #2 going into the tournament. Maybe the selectors will feel that either O'Neill or Kirst has put enough daylight between them and the other 3 so that it's a 2-horse race no matter what happens in the tournament. But I will still bet that,given the importance of tournament results year to year (a) 2022 Tewaaraton finalist Shellenberger repeats as a finalist in 2023; and (b) that if UVA wins the national championship Shellenberger gets the Tewaaraton. (That "if" is doing a lot of work I know.)

[faircornell]

I agree that Cornell will need to play and beat at least one top 5 team for Kirst to be a credible candidate. I assume that Cornell will have such a match-up, at some point, in the NCAA Tournament. Last year the Big Red played to their top potential in the NCAA tournament, and were remarkable. If they achieve that same level of play this year, and achieve a Top 5 win (or two), Kirst has a shot at the Trophy. CJ Kirst is not only an exceptional lacrosse player, he is an exceptional young man. He would be a great ambassador for the sport were he to win.

[Laxfanatic2022]

I agree that Cornell will need to play and beat at least one top 5 team for Kirst to be a credible candidate. I assume that Cornell will have such a match-up, at some point, in the NCAA Tournament. Last year the Big Red played to their top potential in the NCAA tournament, and were remarkable. If they achieve that same level of play this year, and achieve a Top 5 win (or two), Kirst has a shot at the Trophy. CJ Kirst is not only an exceptional lacrosse player, he is an exceptional young man. He would be a great ambassador for the sport were he to win.

If Cornell runs into UVA, ND, Duke let’s say 2/3 of them and Adler erases these other finalist while having a massive game it’s very possible he could run away with the award or share it with Kirst. If there’s a year for it to happen it’s this year and he’s put himself in the running. A lot would have to happen match up wise but it’s really not that crazy in the grand scheme of it. He certainly helps Kirst’s case a lot, but his dominance can not be ignored for those who have seen the Cornell games.

[Cornell95]

They may be really good, but their players haven't gotten their points against the same caliber of defenses that O' Neill and several others have.

Like Bellarmine, High Point, Air Force and Merrimack?

I am anything but a Duke or O’Neill fan, but recognize skill when I see it. That kid has it. I know Duke has played and beaten Virginia twice and also played Notre Dame, Cuse and UNC which are all top 10 type games. Cornell fans haven’t played anything close to the caliber of competition in 3 of those games that I can see. They get their insecure nose out of joint if anyone questions their team instead of responding how many top 5 or top 10 wins/losses they have and against whom.

Well now we are getting somewhere in this discussion... if I assume that UNC and Syracuse are 'top 10 type' games despite having RPIs of 14/21 and poll rankings of 17/18, then it is much easier to see your position on O'Neill being the clear frontrunner.

[lorin]

They may be really good, but their players haven't gotten their points against the same caliber of defenses that O' Neill and several others have.

Like Bellarmine, High Point, Air Force and Merrimack?

I am anything but a Duke or O’Neill fan, but recognize skill when I see it. That kid has it. I know Duke has played and beaten Virginia twice and also played Notre Dame, Cuse and UNC which are all top 10 type games. Cornell fans haven’t played anything close to the caliber of competition in 3 of those games that I can see. They get their insecure nose out of joint if anyone questions their team instead of responding how many top 5 or top 10 wins/losses they have and against whom.

Well now we are getting somewhere in this discussion... if I assume that UNC and Syracuse are 'top 10 type' games despite having RPIs of 14/21 and poll rankings of 17/18, then it is much easier to see your position on O'Neill being the clear frontrunner.

Scoring Defense, UNC rank 14th Cuse 42nd

[tech37]

They may be really good, but their players haven't gotten their points against the same caliber of defenses that O' Neill and several others have.

Like Bellarmine, High Point, Air Force and Merrimack?

I am anything but a Duke or O’Neill fan, but recognize skill when I see it. That kid has it. I know Duke has played and beaten Virginia twice and also played Notre Dame, Cuse and UNC which are all top 10 type games. Cornell fans haven’t played anything close to the caliber of competition in 3 of those games that I can see. They get their insecure nose out of joint if anyone questions their team instead of responding how many top 5 or top 10 wins/losses they have and against whom.

Well now we are getting somewhere in this discussion... if I assume that UNC and Syracuse are 'top 10 type' games despite having RPIs of 14/21 and poll rankings of 17/18, then it is much easier to see your position on O'Neill being the clear frontrunner.

Scoring Defense, UNC rank 14th Cuse 42nd

Not sure what this has to do with the conversation...the RPI and rankings are the issue.

SU is not a fast break team but not due to lack of ability (which is where I assume lorin is coming from). Gait has them pulling up to set up the half-field offense. Not my idea of exciting lacrosse but when you're a team that needed to rely on every possession, due to low FO %s and/or average clearing #s, it makes sense.

[rasheed]

Brennan O'Neill has been the best and most consistently dominant offensive player in the country, adjusted for level of competition. Kirst would be a close #2 for me. I think it goes to whichever of those two has the better NCAA tournament/whose team goes further.

Agreed. In a year where there's not a consensus winner (such as Pat Spencer or Dylan Molloy, both of whose teams lost in the quarterfinals), history tells us that the offensive finalist (if you're a FOGO or d-man, being a finalist seems to be regarded as your prize) whose team goes the furthest will be the winner, because the recency of the tournament run will carry the day. If UVA wins I think it goes to Shelley. With as great a year as Dickson and Cormier are having, Shellenberger is the #1 (Jerry Rice to the other guys' John Taylor).

Shellenberger hasn't come close to O'Neill's level of domination this year. That is not an insult to CS, he is a great player leading a team full of great players. But O'Neill and Kirst are way ahead of #3, whoever that may be. Somebody from UVA certainly deserves to be nominated for the top 5, maybe even 2 Hoos deserve the top 5 if you want to limit it to offensive players. But getting a bunch of assists on this UVA team loaded with offensive talent is not the same as what O'Neill and Kirst are doing, at least as far as individual awards go. This late in the season, it should take more than "just" winning the national championship for CS to beat out the top 2 (and even his own teammate below that).

I agree with this and I hate Duke with passion of a thousand Al qaeda in a Jewish synagogue. If Duke makes it to the Final 4, there’s no way in God’s green earth that O’Neil doesn’t bring home the Tewey. Of course, that’s fine so long as the Hoos win the Naty.

[Finster]

Brennan O'Neill has been the best and most consistently dominant offensive player in the country, adjusted for level of competition. Kirst would be a close #2 for me. I think it goes to whichever of those two has the better NCAA tournament/whose team goes further.

Agreed. In a year where there's not a consensus winner (such as Pat Spencer or Dylan Molloy, both of whose teams lost in the quarterfinals), history tells us that the offensive finalist (if you're a FOGO or d-man, being a finalist seems to be regarded as your prize) whose team goes the furthest will be the winner, because the recency of the tournament run will carry the day. If UVA wins I think it goes to Shelley. With as great a year as Dickson and Cormier are having, Shellenberger is the #1 (Jerry Rice to the other guys' John Taylor).

Shellenberger hasn't come close to O'Neill's level of domination this year. That is not an insult to CS, he is a great player leading a team full of great players. But O'Neill and Kirst are way ahead of #3, whoever that may be. Somebody from UVA certainly deserves to be nominated for the top 5, maybe even 2 Hoos deserve the top 5 if you want to limit it to offensive players. But getting a bunch of assists on this UVA team loaded with offensive talent is not the same as what O'Neill and Kirst are doing, at least as far as individual awards go. This late in the season, it should take more than "just" winning the national championship for CS to beat out the top 2 (and even his own teammate below that).

I agree with this and I hate Duke with passion of a thousand Al qaeda in a Jewish synagogue. If Duke makes it to the Final 4, there’s no way in God’s green earth that O’Neil doesn’t bring home the Tewey. Of course, that’s fine so long as the Hoos win the Naty.

^^^gonna add my ditto to your guys’ posts.