GWOT --> GPC

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youthathletics
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Re: GWOT --> GPC

Post by youthathletics »

Seacoaster(1) wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 3:00 pm
youthathletics wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:02 pm Hypothetical....What if, Zelenskyy is really playing the USA, is a puppet of Russia and will die in his grave having said nothing about it, and the end goal is to get China and Russia playing in the same sandbox to form an alliance, that ultimately supports the current GPC.

Prove that it is not an option.....
Just curious: was this tongue in cheek? Please tell me you were joking.
I like to think about what-ifs, and things that do not align with the pack. And in this instance, if we zoom out, the foretold storyline before all this transpired was a new GPC on the horizon. And, if you think like Putin the goal is to create chaos, just enough to draw in your competition.

I get it, in your world as an attorney, the law is the law, to protect honest people and penalize bad. People like Putin and Xi laugh at law and write it as they wish. That must be infuriating to you, it sure is to me. So, one goal for Putin was to find a way to flex and draw in China and the US, forcing them to come to him....meaning what? Yep, that he is in control....although recklessly, which is why we are all flailing around posturing how Putin takes the offramp from all this. IMO, he could care less.

So my initial 'hypothetical' questions the authenticity of Zelenskyy as an optional lane to take for better understanding. An actor, comedian, born a Russian, created a show so he could play president, and argued he would meet with Putin to resolve the conflict and tension. It is reminiscent of a small scale 'catfishing' ploy, that happens daily.

Again, it was for discussion purposes, and not that I believe it is full on true.


National Defense University Press


“China and Russia challenge American power, influence, and interests, attempting to erode American security and prosperity. They are determined to make economies less free and less fair, to grow their militaries, and to control information and data to repress their societies and expand their influence. . . . These competitions require the United States to rethink the policies of the past two decades—policies based on the assumption that engagement with rivals and their inclusion in international institutions and global commerce would turn them into benign actors and trustworthy partners. For the most part, this premise turned out to be false.”

—National Security Strategy of the United States of America,
December 2017
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy


“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Soren Kierkegaard
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: GWOT --> GPC

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

How about believe it is full on false and preposterous?

Infinitesimal probability.

I know, I Know, "So, you're saying there's a chance"?...

no, overwhelmingly no.

It is true, however, that Russia and China have a common interest in undermining western democracy and its leading player, America. And it's true that engagement will not make them "benign actors and trustworthy partners".

But I think the premise claimed is misleading, as the hope is not that they will become benign or trustworthy, but rather that they can be influenced by their own interests in maintaining such engagement. Perfection is not the goal, but reducing the likelihood of direct conflict, especially hot conflict, by providing counterbalancing interests is potentially achievable.

Whether those counterbalancing interests are sufficient is open to question, but the premise, as stated, is inaccurate and overstated.
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youthathletics
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Re: GWOT --> GPC

Post by youthathletics »

Not sure where to put this or even if there is value...
Salvage teams were unable to save a Chinese bulker that was damaged in a collision with heavy ice flows near the Russian port of Vanino.

https://www.maritime-executive.com/arti ... age-effort
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy


“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Soren Kierkegaard
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Kismet
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Re: GWOT --> GPC

Post by Kismet »

youthathletics wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 8:24 am Not sure where to put this or even if there is value...
Salvage teams were unable to save a Chinese bulker that was damaged in a collision with heavy ice flows near the Russian port of Vanino.

https://www.maritime-executive.com/arti ... age-effort
They should call Bob Ballard who is excellent at finding sunken ships that hit an iceberg. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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youthathletics
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Re: GWOT --> GPC

Post by youthathletics »

Chess pieces are moving....

Xi and Putin Have the Most Consequential Undeclared Alliance in the World

Neither leader has made a secret of his ambitions to end U.S. hegemony and create what Xi called on Monday a “new model of major-country relations.”...

...Since Xi and Putin are not just the current presidents of their two nations but leaders whose tenures effectively have no expiration dates, the United States will have to understand that it is confronting the most consequential undeclared alliance in the world.
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy


“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Soren Kierkegaard
PizzaSnake
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Re: GWOT --> GPC

Post by PizzaSnake »

youthathletics wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:15 am Chess pieces are moving....

Xi and Putin Have the Most Consequential Undeclared Alliance in the World

Neither leader has made a secret of his ambitions to end U.S. hegemony and create what Xi called on Monday a “new model of major-country relations.”...

...Since Xi and Putin are not just the current presidents of their two nations but leaders whose tenures effectively have no expiration dates, the United States will have to understand that it is confronting the most consequential undeclared alliance in the world.
Hmm. No shite, Sherlock.
"There is nothing more difficult and more dangerous to carry through than initiating changes. One makes enemies of those who prospered under the old order, and only lukewarm support from those who would prosper under the new."
Farfromgeneva
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Re: GWOT --> GPC

Post by Farfromgeneva »

PizzaSnake wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:15 pm
youthathletics wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:15 am Chess pieces are moving....

Xi and Putin Have the Most Consequential Undeclared Alliance in the World

Neither leader has made a secret of his ambitions to end U.S. hegemony and create what Xi called on Monday a “new model of major-country relations.”...

...Since Xi and Putin are not just the current presidents of their two nations but leaders whose tenures effectively have no expiration dates, the United States will have to understand that it is confronting the most consequential undeclared alliance in the world.
Hmm. No shite, Sherlock.
Yes my 10yr old son understands this already.
Now I love those cowboys, I love their gold
Love my uncle, God rest his soul
Taught me good, Lord, taught me all I know
Taught me so well, that I grabbed that gold
I left his dead ass there by the side of the road, yeah
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youthathletics
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Re: GWOT --> GPC

Post by youthathletics »

Worth the watch. Some shocking details/stats embedded within:

Nice to see Dems and R's collaborating on the common goal at the midpoint of video. Both ex military, one USNA grad.

A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy


“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Soren Kierkegaard
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old salt
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Re: Great Power Confrontation

Post by old salt »

The mutually escalating rhetoric & military moves between the US & China make me uneasy.

imo -- the diplomatic visits by Congress members to & with the Taiwanese are counterproductive, as is the increasing bellicose rhetoric.

I think we should stay quiet & let our actions speak for us. We should have splashed the spy balloon as it passed over the Aleutians & made no public mention of it. We should quietly maneuver our warships in WPac & continue adding small bases in the region.

Our public position should be that we continue to support the One China Policy so long as reunification is a voluntary choice by the Taiwanese.

Based on the actions & positioning of PLA warships, I fear a selective, test naval blockade of Taiwan could be the next move.

https://news.usni.org/2023/04/06/china- ... east-coast
a fan
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Re: Great Power Confrontation

Post by a fan »

old salt wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 5:06 pm The mutually escalating rhetoric & military moves between the US & China make me uneasy.

imo -- the diplomatic visits by Congress members to & with the Taiwanese are counterproductive, as is the increasing bellicose rhetoric.

I think we should stay quiet & let our actions speak for us. We should have splashed the spy balloon as it passed over the Aleutians & made no public mention of it.
What happened to posters not being allowed to Monday Morning Quarterback.....per Old Salts "posting rules for everyone but him"?

You're wasting bandwidth. Or so you told me.
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Re: Great Power Confrontation

Post by a fan »

old salt wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 5:06 pm We should quietly maneuver our warships in WPac & continue adding small bases in the region.
On an actually serious note: you say you're not a neo-con.

In what world is plopping MORE bases in China's immediate vacinity not a neo-con move?

MORE overseas bullying.

MORE sticking our nose in the Pac Rim area?

MORE "standing up to China", only this time, using our military to do it.


You railed against this, and called it "American arrogance" all of a week ago. What changed? Bad night's sleep?

Taiwan isn't an ally in the legal sense. We don't have a treaty with them.
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old salt
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Re: Great Power Confrontation

Post by old salt »

a fan wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 5:52 pm
old salt wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 5:06 pm The mutually escalating rhetoric & military moves between the US & China make me uneasy.

imo -- the diplomatic visits by Congress members to & with the Taiwanese are counterproductive, as is the increasing bellicose rhetoric.

I think we should stay quiet & let our actions speak for us. We should have splashed the spy balloon as it passed over the Aleutians & made no public mention of it.
What happened to posters not being allowed to Monday Morning Quarterback.....per Old Salts "posting rules for everyone but him"?

You're wasting bandwidth. Or so you told me.
a fan wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 6:05 pm
old salt wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 5:06 pm We should quietly maneuver our warships in WPac & continue adding small bases in the region.
On an actually serious note: you say you're not a neo-con.

In what world is plopping MORE bases in China's immediate vacinity not a neo-con move?

MORE overseas bullying.

MORE sticking our nose in the Pac Rim area?

MORE "standing up to China", only this time, using our military to do it.


You railed against this, and called it "American arrogance" all of a week ago. What changed? Bad night's sleep?

Taiwan isn't an ally in the legal sense. We don't have a treaty with them.
You're just an argumentative troll. FU.
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Re: Great Power Confrontation

Post by a fan »

old salt wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 6:07 pm
a fan wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 5:52 pm
old salt wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 5:06 pm The mutually escalating rhetoric & military moves between the US & China make me uneasy.

imo -- the diplomatic visits by Congress members to & with the Taiwanese are counterproductive, as is the increasing bellicose rhetoric.

I think we should stay quiet & let our actions speak for us. We should have splashed the spy balloon as it passed over the Aleutians & made no public mention of it.
What happened to posters not being allowed to Monday Morning Quarterback.....per Old Salts "posting rules for everyone but him"?

You're wasting bandwidth. Or so you told me.
a fan wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 6:05 pm
old salt wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 5:06 pm We should quietly maneuver our warships in WPac & continue adding small bases in the region.
On an actually serious note: you say you're not a neo-con.

In what world is plopping MORE bases in China's immediate vacinity not a neo-con move?

MORE overseas bullying.

MORE sticking our nose in the Pac Rim area?

MORE "standing up to China", only this time, using our military to do it.


You railed against this, and called it "American arrogance" all of a week ago. What changed? Bad night's sleep?

Taiwan isn't an ally in the legal sense. We don't have a treaty with them.
You're just an argumentative troll. FU.
Nope. You just got done telling me that I'm Monday Morning Quarterbacking, and that that's bad.

When you do it? It's awesome, and you're giving your opinion.

And then you yell at me for being "argumentative" for daring to question anything you post.

You think your opinions are the word of G8d, all because you served. What's worse, is that you think everyone else's opinion is lesser.....and that's why you think I'm "arguing" for daring to ask questions on a forum that's literally designed for back and forth discussions.

No. I'm giving my opinion. Just like you. When you do it? It's awesome. When I do it? It's trolling.

You just finished lecturing us about American Arrogance, and pushing around other nations. Ten seconds later? You're telling us that we should open MORE bases all over the Pac Rim. And then acting like you just can't figure out why I'm telling you that these ideas contradict one another.

So you claim I'm trolling.
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old salt
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Re: Great Power Confrontation

Post by old salt »

a fan wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 6:18 pm
And then you yell at me for being "argumentative" for daring to question anything you post.

You think your opinions are the word of G8d, all because you served. What's worse, is that you think everyone else's opinion is lesser.....and that's why you think I'm "arguing" for daring to ask questions on a forum that's literally designed for back and forth discussions.
Grow up. Get over it. Agree to disagree (as you say).
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Re: Great Power Confrontation

Post by a fan »

old salt wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 6:27 pm
a fan wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 6:18 pm
And then you yell at me for being "argumentative" for daring to question anything you post.

You think your opinions are the word of G8d, all because you served. What's worse, is that you think everyone else's opinion is lesser.....and that's why you think I'm "arguing" for daring to ask questions on a forum that's literally designed for back and forth discussions.
Grow up. Get over it. Agree to disagree (as you say).
:lol: No, my friend. That's on YOU. Don't lecture me about "Monday Morning Quarterbacking"....and then turn around and do it yourself!

The "get over it"......is to stop telling your fellow posters what to do. Especially when you know doggone well you do it yourself.


So sure, let's open more bases in the PacRim. More isolationism at the point of a gun. I must be insane to dare to question this idea. Or worse, argumentative.
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Re: GWOT --> GPC

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

well, putting aside the getting PO'd at one another, seems to me that the rhetoric and showboating of support for Taiwan is not helpful to accomplishing our real objectives, which should be to out compete China (and all authoritarian regimes) without provoking a hot war between us, or any of our allies (including Taiwan), with China.

That's a tough tightrope without excessive rhetoric.

Serious actions like the Chips Act and other steps we can take to compete technologically, while continuing trade relationships that foster some mutual appreciation for the benefits of peace, as well as making sure our allies are well equipped to deal with military challenges should they arise (and deterring such likelihood) make a ton more sense. That needn't be bellicose. But real action.

So, I'd agree with Salty that the ever hotter rhetoric isn't helpful, the visits showboating visits by Pelosi and now McCarthy are really unhelpful, while at the same time we can understand that Ukraine's success against Russia militarily may be the best form of deterrence to China's more 'hot' ambitions.

I don't like the hand wringing about AI as you can bet that China is doubling down as we hand wring. Sure, we should be looking hard at ethical challenges, but we should want to lead this arena, not be caught napping and kvetching.

There was an interesting piece on NPR I think about a brand new form of chip, super conductor, that will be transformative in the next decades...we should invest in leadership in this arena...and apparently there are some rare materials necessary...ok, that calls for serious industrial policy...

But back to the competition with China, we need to remember that they have a horrible demographic problem, with no clear answer...rapidly aging population. whereas, we have a cultural openness to immigration and diversity, they're all about ethnic unity and conformity...big advantages for us.

Frankly, we really don't want them to get desperate nor isolated. And we need them to develop their middle class, as all sorts of awareness of environmental damages become increasingly important as people lift their heads up...and we need them to be way more environmentally helpful...
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old salt
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Re: Great Power Confrontation

Post by old salt »

a fan wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 6:34 pm So sure, let's open more bases in the PacRim. More isolationism at the point of a gun. I must be insane to dare to question this idea. Or worse, argumentative.
Isolationism does not mean withdrawing from global commerce & not defending our interests over the horizion,
...unless you favored paying tribute to the Barbary pirates.

Guam & American Samoa are US territory.

Small Pacific lily pad bases, where invited by treaty allies.
https://warontherocks.com/2021/02/acces ... ted-world/
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: Great Power Confrontation

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

old salt wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 7:01 pm
a fan wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 6:34 pm So sure, let's open more bases in the PacRim. More isolationism at the point of a gun. I must be insane to dare to question this idea. Or worse, argumentative.
Isolationism does not mean withdrawing from global commerce & not defending our interests over the horizion,
...unless you favored paying tribute to the Barbary pirates.

Guam & American Samoa are US territory.

Small Pacific lily pad bases, where invited by treaty allies.
https://warontherocks.com/2021/02/acces ... ted-world/
Actually, that's exactly what "isolationism" means.

Which is why I ain't isolationist, and you really aren't either.
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Re: Great Power Confrontation

Post by a fan »

old salt wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 7:01 pm
a fan wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 6:34 pm So sure, let's open more bases in the PacRim. More isolationism at the point of a gun. I must be insane to dare to question this idea. Or worse, argumentative.
Isolationism does not mean withdrawing from global commerce & not defending our interests over the horizion,
...unless you favored paying tribute to the Barbary pirates.

Guam & American Samoa are US territory.

Small Pacific lily pad bases, where invited by treaty allies.
https://warontherocks.com/2021/02/acces ... ted-world/
Ok....so now opening even MORE military bases overseas counts as isolationism?

And cut me some slack---you have to be intellectually honest here and admit that calling increasing our military presence...by opening brand new military bases......in an entirely different hemisphere is, to put it politely, a stretch of the definition of the word "isolationism".

Is there anything we could do that ISN'T isolationism in your eyes?
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Re: Great Power Confrontation

Post by a fan »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 7:06 pm
old salt wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 7:01 pm
a fan wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 6:34 pm So sure, let's open more bases in the PacRim. More isolationism at the point of a gun. I must be insane to dare to question this idea. Or worse, argumentative.
Isolationism does not mean withdrawing from global commerce & not defending our interests over the horizion,
...unless you favored paying tribute to the Barbary pirates.

Guam & American Samoa are US territory.

Small Pacific lily pad bases, where invited by treaty allies.
https://warontherocks.com/2021/02/acces ... ted-world/
Actually, that's exactly what "isolationism" means.
Thank you. I'm not being argumentative. I'm using a dictionary.
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