The Hate Directed at the LGBTQ+

[Typical Lax Dad]

But a serious question that I’ve wondered is how does one know enough to reject their biological gender at 12? I’m for exploring our humanity as children growing up in all its forms and fashions (despite individualism having gone too far, broadly speaking, IMO). But by declaring one is transgender at that age they are implicitly (or explicitly) rejecting the other right. So I’m against these restrictions but kind of wonder if it’s a mistake to take medical actions at a younger age. Are we going to see multiple surgeries at some point back and forth by/before age 30 in the future? Does it matter? I have to think more surgery is not good physiologically.

I’m sure folks on both sides or whatever will win with this and avoid/refuse having a serious conversation here but as a parent, and I have ones who seem pretty set in what they are but still young, I don’t want to indulge the impulses of my kids with long term consequences just support them exploring what makes them confident standing on their own two feet and knowing they are always supported and loved and that feels like maybe saying “umm yeah, no Daughter, I’m not doing hormone blocking procedures at age 9-10 for you”.

Thought exercise: were you confident in your gender at age 12? Did you even think about it, or was being a dude just "normal"? Did you reject the possibility of being the opposite biological gender at age 12? Most of the human race does that automatically.

IMHO this is something that's so fundamental to one's being. If something's off, they're gonna know sooner or later. And it's not gonna go away like an idiotic hairstyle trend (broccoli cut needs to die). It's there for nearly every moment of every day for the rest of their life.

Another thought exercise: if we could somehow transplant your brain into a woman's body, would you think nothing of it and live the rest of your life in that body? Or would you think something's off? And if you knew you could be (mostly) a man again, do you think you'd try to transition?

Sure there's always attention-seekers out there wanting to be different. A few will hop on the bandwagon and off again. The stats don't seem to show much de-transitioning or going back and forth at all. And most that do de-transition are doing it for social reasons (can't pass, get harrassed, etc), not because they realize they were wrong.

I'd hope most parents would seek the appropriate guided care for their kids. I don't think you jump straight to hormone blockers. Thought it was a fairly drawn out process including therapy and more.

Either way, not looking forward to when our kids hit puberty...

Understood but then in my age and cohort I recall a lot of semester or sophomore year lesbians who got into Sarah McLaughlin, indigo girls and ani deifranco only to get back into guys like me to their chagrin 6-9 months later.

I’ve been waiting to test my son for adhd here even though I suspect he has a little bit of it so feel like meds altering puberty or more long term/permanent feel risky without a very very high degree of certainty. I definitely don’t tell other parents what to do except as their lax coach occasionally but for myself I feel very circumspect about medical actions before like mid teenage years (or later-TBD)

FFG, I was following your train of thought, or at least thought I was, until this last post that's more about questioning/experimenting with one's sexual preference and not questioning of one's gender.

Taking about judgement of people’s understanding of themselves. Hell I didn’t trust my own judgement into my 30s.

Gender and sexual orientation are two different things.

[Farfromgeneva]

But a serious question that I’ve wondered is how does one know enough to reject their biological gender at 12? I’m for exploring our humanity as children growing up in all its forms and fashions (despite individualism having gone too far, broadly speaking, IMO). But by declaring one is transgender at that age they are implicitly (or explicitly) rejecting the other right. So I’m against these restrictions but kind of wonder if it’s a mistake to take medical actions at a younger age. Are we going to see multiple surgeries at some point back and forth by/before age 30 in the future? Does it matter? I have to think more surgery is not good physiologically.

I’m sure folks on both sides or whatever will win with this and avoid/refuse having a serious conversation here but as a parent, and I have ones who seem pretty set in what they are but still young, I don’t want to indulge the impulses of my kids with long term consequences just support them exploring what makes them confident standing on their own two feet and knowing they are always supported and loved and that feels like maybe saying “umm yeah, no Daughter, I’m not doing hormone blocking procedures at age 9-10 for you”.

Thought exercise: were you confident in your gender at age 12? Did you even think about it, or was being a dude just "normal"? Did you reject the possibility of being the opposite biological gender at age 12? Most of the human race does that automatically.

IMHO this is something that's so fundamental to one's being. If something's off, they're gonna know sooner or later. And it's not gonna go away like an idiotic hairstyle trend (broccoli cut needs to die). It's there for nearly every moment of every day for the rest of their life.

Another thought exercise: if we could somehow transplant your brain into a woman's body, would you think nothing of it and live the rest of your life in that body? Or would you think something's off? And if you knew you could be (mostly) a man again, do you think you'd try to transition?

Sure there's always attention-seekers out there wanting to be different. A few will hop on the bandwagon and off again. The stats don't seem to show much de-transitioning or going back and forth at all. And most that do de-transition are doing it for social reasons (can't pass, get harrassed, etc), not because they realize they were wrong.

I'd hope most parents would seek the appropriate guided care for their kids. I don't think you jump straight to hormone blockers. Thought it was a fairly drawn out process including therapy and more.

Either way, not looking forward to when our kids hit puberty...

Understood but then in my age and cohort I recall a lot of semester or sophomore year lesbians who got into Sarah McLaughlin, indigo girls and ani deifranco only to get back into guys like me to their chagrin 6-9 months later.

I’ve been waiting to test my son for adhd here even though I suspect he has a little bit of it so feel like meds altering puberty or more long term/permanent feel risky without a very very high degree of certainty. I definitely don’t tell other parents what to do except as their lax coach occasionally but for myself I feel very circumspect about medical actions before like mid teenage years (or later-TBD)

FFG, I was following your train of thought, or at least thought I was, until this last post that's more about questioning/experimenting with one's sexual preference and not questioning of one's gender.

Taking about judgement of people’s understanding of themselves. Hell I didn’t trust my own judgement into my 30s.

Gender and sexual orientation are two different things.

I understand. We’re talking about gender being specifically biological then and only exclusively biological? If that’s the case should we not be able to test at an early age and have definitive answers?

[Typical Lax Dad]

But a serious question that I’ve wondered is how does one know enough to reject their biological gender at 12? I’m for exploring our humanity as children growing up in all its forms and fashions (despite individualism having gone too far, broadly speaking, IMO). But by declaring one is transgender at that age they are implicitly (or explicitly) rejecting the other right. So I’m against these restrictions but kind of wonder if it’s a mistake to take medical actions at a younger age. Are we going to see multiple surgeries at some point back and forth by/before age 30 in the future? Does it matter? I have to think more surgery is not good physiologically.

I’m sure folks on both sides or whatever will win with this and avoid/refuse having a serious conversation here but as a parent, and I have ones who seem pretty set in what they are but still young, I don’t want to indulge the impulses of my kids with long term consequences just support them exploring what makes them confident standing on their own two feet and knowing they are always supported and loved and that feels like maybe saying “umm yeah, no Daughter, I’m not doing hormone blocking procedures at age 9-10 for you”.

Thought exercise: were you confident in your gender at age 12? Did you even think about it, or was being a dude just "normal"? Did you reject the possibility of being the opposite biological gender at age 12? Most of the human race does that automatically.

IMHO this is something that's so fundamental to one's being. If something's off, they're gonna know sooner or later. And it's not gonna go away like an idiotic hairstyle trend (broccoli cut needs to die). It's there for nearly every moment of every day for the rest of their life.

Another thought exercise: if we could somehow transplant your brain into a woman's body, would you think nothing of it and live the rest of your life in that body? Or would you think something's off? And if you knew you could be (mostly) a man again, do you think you'd try to transition?

Sure there's always attention-seekers out there wanting to be different. A few will hop on the bandwagon and off again. The stats don't seem to show much de-transitioning or going back and forth at all. And most that do de-transition are doing it for social reasons (can't pass, get harrassed, etc), not because they realize they were wrong.

I'd hope most parents would seek the appropriate guided care for their kids. I don't think you jump straight to hormone blockers. Thought it was a fairly drawn out process including therapy and more.

Either way, not looking forward to when our kids hit puberty...

Understood but then in my age and cohort I recall a lot of semester or sophomore year lesbians who got into Sarah McLaughlin, indigo girls and ani deifranco only to get back into guys like me to their chagrin 6-9 months later.

I’ve been waiting to test my son for adhd here even though I suspect he has a little bit of it so feel like meds altering puberty or more long term/permanent feel risky without a very very high degree of certainty. I definitely don’t tell other parents what to do except as their lax coach occasionally but for myself I feel very circumspect about medical actions before like mid teenage years (or later-TBD)

FFG, I was following your train of thought, or at least thought I was, until this last post that's more about questioning/experimenting with one's sexual preference and not questioning of one's gender.

Taking about judgement of people’s understanding of themselves. Hell I didn’t trust my own judgement into my 30s.

Gender and sexual orientation are two different things.

I understand. We’re talking about gender being specifically biological then and only exclusively biological? If that’s the case should we not be able to test at an early age and have definitive answers?

I don't know...but don't believe it to be that simple.... My guess would be to listen to your kids and seek some counsel. Ignoring it and hoping it goes away might not work. It's not teeth!

[Typical Lax Dad]

[NattyBohChamps04]

Ehh, I don't know. When I was 12, it was 1993. I wasn't online all day seeing all the ways that people were different than me. It seems like these days a lot of people are trying out different genders, pronouns, non-binary, gender non-conforming, etc. It doesn't seem like they're SURE about it. Something might feel off, or they might just be going through childhood and have questions about themselves like kids have for a long time.

Yeah, we've come a long way from 1993 for LGBT issues. A lot of good and a some bad. It's nice kids get to see representation in online media. Learning it's ok to be themselves and test out different things if they want. Because repressing who you really are leads to lots more issues down the road than not.

Wearing boys clothes if you're a girl and trying out new pronouns? Go for it! Wanna go further with medical intervention? Sure, let's get some professionals involved to get a better handle on the proper issues going on. And respond with proper intervention. Just like any other medical issue.

Most of the ones asking for serious medical intervention are indeed very SURE about it. A small percentage aren't. Life's messy. Especially in middle school & high school.

Thinking back to my gay great aunt and her "roommate" in the midwest. Passed away in her 90's a few years back. I have another family member who doesn't have to hide their spouse behind the "roommate" moniker any more. A lot of changes from 1993 to 2023 as more gay people came out and the rest of America realized their gay friends and family are just normal people born a certain way.

I mean who would honestly choose to be gay in the 90's or earlier, or trans even nowadays? So much of society was and is hell bent on canceling them, or even killing them. Imagine growing up in a religious school where you're told your very existence is a sin against society or god and you deserve to go to hell. Forcing you to be someone you aren't...

[JoeMauer89]

Ehh, I don't know. When I was 12, it was 1993. I wasn't online all day seeing all the ways that people were different than me. It seems like these days a lot of people are trying out different genders, pronouns, non-binary, gender non-conforming, etc. It doesn't seem like they're SURE about it. Something might feel off, or they might just be going through childhood and have questions about themselves like kids have for a long time.

Yeah, we've come a long way from 1993 for LGBT issues. A lot of good and a some bad. It's nice kids get to see representation in online media. Learning it's ok to be themselves and test out different things if they want. Because repressing who you really are leads to lots more issues down the road than not.

Wearing boys clothes if you're a girl and trying out new pronouns? Go for it! Wanna go further with medical intervention? Sure, let's get some professionals involved to get a better handle on the proper issues going on. And respond with proper intervention. Just like any other medical issue.

Most of the ones asking for serious medical intervention are indeed very SURE about it. A small percentage aren't. Life's messy. Especially in middle school & high school.

Thinking back to my gay great aunt and her "roommate" in the midwest. Passed away in her 90's a few years back. I have another family member who doesn't have to hide their spouse behind the "roommate" moniker any more. A lot of changes from 1993 to 2023 as more gay people came out and the rest of America realized their gay friends and family are just normal people born a certain way.

I mean who would honestly choose to be gay in the 90's or earlier, or trans even nowadays? So much of society was and is hell bent on canceling them, or even killing them. Imagine growing up in a religious school where you're told your very existence is a sin against society or god and you deserve to go to hell. Forcing you to be someone you aren't...

Natty,

The first 98% your post is quite valid. PLEASE do not tell me that last part is intended to serve as justification/validation for 7 innocent people's lives being taken the other day. Maybe I'm reading it the wrong way, but there are thousands of other ways to have handled the situation. Each and every one of them a BETTER outcome than what actually occurred.

Joe

[NattyBohChamps04]

Ehh, I don't know. When I was 12, it was 1993. I wasn't online all day seeing all the ways that people were different than me. It seems like these days a lot of people are trying out different genders, pronouns, non-binary, gender non-conforming, etc. It doesn't seem like they're SURE about it. Something might feel off, or they might just be going through childhood and have questions about themselves like kids have for a long time.

Yeah, we've come a long way from 1993 for LGBT issues. A lot of good and a some bad. It's nice kids get to see representation in online media. Learning it's ok to be themselves and test out different things if they want. Because repressing who you really are leads to lots more issues down the road than not.

Wearing boys clothes if you're a girl and trying out new pronouns? Go for it! Wanna go further with medical intervention? Sure, let's get some professionals involved to get a better handle on the proper issues going on. And respond with proper intervention. Just like any other medical issue.

Most of the ones asking for serious medical intervention are indeed very SURE about it. A small percentage aren't. Life's messy. Especially in middle school & high school.

Thinking back to my gay great aunt and her "roommate" in the midwest. Passed away in her 90's a few years back. I have another family member who doesn't have to hide their spouse behind the "roommate" moniker any more. A lot of changes from 1993 to 2023 as more gay people came out and the rest of America realized their gay friends and family are just normal people born a certain way.

I mean who would honestly choose to be gay in the 90's or earlier, or trans even nowadays? So much of society was and is hell bent on canceling them, or even killing them. Imagine growing up in a religious school where you're told your very existence is a sin against society or god and you deserve to go to hell. Forcing you to be someone you aren't...

Natty,

The first 98% your post is quite valid. PLEASE do not tell me that last part is intended to serve as justification/validation for 7 innocent people's lives being taken the other day. Maybe I'm reading it the wrong way, but there are thousands of other ways to have handled the situation. Each and every one of them a BETTER outcome than what actually occurred.

Joe

Welcome back!

You're indeed reading it the wrong way.

My kids go through active shooter drills on the regular. That's not my America.

[cradleandshoot]

Ehh, I don't know. When I was 12, it was 1993. I wasn't online all day seeing all the ways that people were different than me. It seems like these days a lot of people are trying out different genders, pronouns, non-binary, gender non-conforming, etc. It doesn't seem like they're SURE about it. Something might feel off, or they might just be going through childhood and have questions about themselves like kids have for a long time.

Yeah, we've come a long way from 1993 for LGBT issues. A lot of good and a some bad. It's nice kids get to see representation in online media. Learning it's ok to be themselves and test out different things if they want. Because repressing who you really are leads to lots more issues down the road than not.

Wearing boys clothes if you're a girl and trying out new pronouns? Go for it! Wanna go further with medical intervention? Sure, let's get some professionals involved to get a better handle on the proper issues going on. And respond with proper intervention. Just like any other medical issue.

Most of the ones asking for serious medical intervention are indeed very SURE about it. A small percentage aren't. Life's messy. Especially in middle school & high school.

Thinking back to my gay great aunt and her "roommate" in the midwest. Passed away in her 90's a few years back. I have another family member who doesn't have to hide their spouse behind the "roommate" moniker any more. A lot of changes from 1993 to 2023 as more gay people came out and the rest of America realized their gay friends and family are just normal people born a certain way.

I mean who would honestly choose to be gay in the 90's or earlier, or trans even nowadays? So much of society was and is hell bent on canceling them, or even killing them. Imagine growing up in a religious school where you're told your very existence is a sin against society or god and you deserve to go to hell. Forcing you to be someone you aren't...

Natty,

The first 98% your post is quite valid. PLEASE do not tell me that last part is intended to serve as justification/validation for 7 innocent people's lives being taken the other day. Maybe I'm reading it the wrong way, but there are thousands of other ways to have handled the situation. Each and every one of them a BETTER outcome than what actually occurred.

Joe

Welcome back!

You're indeed reading it the wrong way.

My kids go through active shooter drills on the regular. That's not my America.

You bring up a valid point. Are you even concerned about why our children are forced to learn in schools that now resemble minimum security prisons? What is your America my friend?? What you fail to address is why a new generation of young people, or at least a disturbing minority of them, want to kill innocent children before they commit suicide by cop.

[Farfromgeneva]

But a serious question that I’ve wondered is how does one know enough to reject their biological gender at 12? I’m for exploring our humanity as children growing up in all its forms and fashions (despite individualism having gone too far, broadly speaking, IMO). But by declaring one is transgender at that age they are implicitly (or explicitly) rejecting the other right. So I’m against these restrictions but kind of wonder if it’s a mistake to take medical actions at a younger age. Are we going to see multiple surgeries at some point back and forth by/before age 30 in the future? Does it matter? I have to think more surgery is not good physiologically.

I’m sure folks on both sides or whatever will win with this and avoid/refuse having a serious conversation here but as a parent, and I have ones who seem pretty set in what they are but still young, I don’t want to indulge the impulses of my kids with long term consequences just support them exploring what makes them confident standing on their own two feet and knowing they are always supported and loved and that feels like maybe saying “umm yeah, no Daughter, I’m not doing hormone blocking procedures at age 9-10 for you”.

Thought exercise: were you confident in your gender at age 12? Did you even think about it, or was being a dude just "normal"? Did you reject the possibility of being the opposite biological gender at age 12? Most of the human race does that automatically.

IMHO this is something that's so fundamental to one's being. If something's off, they're gonna know sooner or later. And it's not gonna go away like an idiotic hairstyle trend (broccoli cut needs to die). It's there for nearly every moment of every day for the rest of their life.

Another thought exercise: if we could somehow transplant your brain into a woman's body, would you think nothing of it and live the rest of your life in that body? Or would you think something's off? And if you knew you could be (mostly) a man again, do you think you'd try to transition?

Sure there's always attention-seekers out there wanting to be different. A few will hop on the bandwagon and off again. The stats don't seem to show much de-transitioning or going back and forth at all. And most that do de-transition are doing it for social reasons (can't pass, get harrassed, etc), not because they realize they were wrong.

I'd hope most parents would seek the appropriate guided care for their kids. I don't think you jump straight to hormone blockers. Thought it was a fairly drawn out process including therapy and more.

Either way, not looking forward to when our kids hit puberty...

Understood but then in my age and cohort I recall a lot of semester or sophomore year lesbians who got into Sarah McLaughlin, indigo girls and ani deifranco only to get back into guys like me to their chagrin 6-9 months later.

I’ve been waiting to test my son for adhd here even though I suspect he has a little bit of it so feel like meds altering puberty or more long term/permanent feel risky without a very very high degree of certainty. I definitely don’t tell other parents what to do except as their lax coach occasionally but for myself I feel very circumspect about medical actions before like mid teenage years (or later-TBD)

FFG, I was following your train of thought, or at least thought I was, until this last post that's more about questioning/experimenting with one's sexual preference and not questioning of one's gender.

Taking about judgement of people’s understanding of themselves. Hell I didn’t trust my own judgement into my 30s.

Gender and sexual orientation are two different things.

I understand. We’re talking about gender being specifically biological then and only exclusively biological? If that’s the case should we not be able to test at an early age and have definitive answers?

I don't know...but don't believe it to be that simple.... My guess would be to listen to your kids and seek some counsel. Ignoring it and hoping it goes away might not work. It's not teeth!

Ok understood. Then my point if it’s more/not exclusively than biological wasn’t unreasonable then. I certainly wouldn’t ignore it, but I could see a few parents run to the doctor the first time a kid suggests something as well. This isn’t to make any case it’s simply to better understand. But then my metaphor about judgement isn’t unreasonable and it was a metaphor. If one would prefer I could point to kids going to Jeffers at 15 but a metaphor is just that and I like lesbians so I’m sticking with my original one to make the point that a decision like this needs seasoning and thought and so it doesn’t strike me as potentially a tough if not odd decision to go the medical route at an age like 12 and appreciating the bullying/suicide risk there’s still a counterbalancing risk of “oh s**t my kid was wrong”. I mean mine are 8&10 so in theory I’m supposed to be making these decisions soon the way some are presenting it.

[Farfromgeneva]

Ehh, I don't know. When I was 12, it was 1993. I wasn't online all day seeing all the ways that people were different than me. It seems like these days a lot of people are trying out different genders, pronouns, non-binary, gender non-conforming, etc. It doesn't seem like they're SURE about it. Something might feel off, or they might just be going through childhood and have questions about themselves like kids have for a long time.

Yeah, we've come a long way from 1993 for LGBT issues. A lot of good and a some bad. It's nice kids get to see representation in online media. Learning it's ok to be themselves and test out different things if they want. Because repressing who you really are leads to lots more issues down the road than not.

Wearing boys clothes if you're a girl and trying out new pronouns? Go for it! Wanna go further with medical intervention? Sure, let's get some professionals involved to get a better handle on the proper issues going on. And respond with proper intervention. Just like any other medical issue.

Most of the ones asking for serious medical intervention are indeed very SURE about it. A small percentage aren't. Life's messy. Especially in middle school & high school.

Thinking back to my gay great aunt and her "roommate" in the midwest. Passed away in her 90's a few years back. I have another family member who doesn't have to hide their spouse behind the "roommate" moniker any more. A lot of changes from 1993 to 2023 as more gay people came out and the rest of America realized their gay friends and family are just normal people born a certain way.

I mean who would honestly choose to be gay in the 90's or earlier, or trans even nowadays? So much of society was and is hell bent on canceling them, or even killing them. Imagine growing up in a religious school where you're told your very existence is a sin against society or god and you deserve to go to hell. Forcing you to be someone you aren't...

I wore girls clothes for a number of ladies nights at a bar in Geneva! While the ruse wasn’t that effective they appreciated the ploy enough to let me and a couple of friends in on the scam drink for free.

[Farfromgeneva]

Ehh, I don't know. When I was 12, it was 1993. I wasn't online all day seeing all the ways that people were different than me. It seems like these days a lot of people are trying out different genders, pronouns, non-binary, gender non-conforming, etc. It doesn't seem like they're SURE about it. Something might feel off, or they might just be going through childhood and have questions about themselves like kids have for a long time.

Yeah, we've come a long way from 1993 for LGBT issues. A lot of good and a some bad. It's nice kids get to see representation in online media. Learning it's ok to be themselves and test out different things if they want. Because repressing who you really are leads to lots more issues down the road than not.

Wearing boys clothes if you're a girl and trying out new pronouns? Go for it! Wanna go further with medical intervention? Sure, let's get some professionals involved to get a better handle on the proper issues going on. And respond with proper intervention. Just like any other medical issue.

Most of the ones asking for serious medical intervention are indeed very SURE about it. A small percentage aren't. Life's messy. Especially in middle school & high school.

Thinking back to my gay great aunt and her "roommate" in the midwest. Passed away in her 90's a few years back. I have another family member who doesn't have to hide their spouse behind the "roommate" moniker any more. A lot of changes from 1993 to 2023 as more gay people came out and the rest of America realized their gay friends and family are just normal people born a certain way.

I mean who would honestly choose to be gay in the 90's or earlier, or trans even nowadays? So much of society was and is hell bent on canceling them, or even killing them. Imagine growing up in a religious school where you're told your very existence is a sin against society or god and you deserve to go to hell. Forcing you to be someone you aren't...

Think this is the key. Hell it lead to my depression as an adult as I figured out too late that when you wear a mask long enough you become it for better or worse.

[cradleandshoot]

Ehh, I don't know. When I was 12, it was 1993. I wasn't online all day seeing all the ways that people were different than me. It seems like these days a lot of people are trying out different genders, pronouns, non-binary, gender non-conforming, etc. It doesn't seem like they're SURE about it. Something might feel off, or they might just be going through childhood and have questions about themselves like kids have for a long time.

Yeah, we've come a long way from 1993 for LGBT issues. A lot of good and a some bad. It's nice kids get to see representation in online media. Learning it's ok to be themselves and test out different things if they want. Because repressing who you really are leads to lots more issues down the road than not.

Wearing boys clothes if you're a girl and trying out new pronouns? Go for it! Wanna go further with medical intervention? Sure, let's get some professionals involved to get a better handle on the proper issues going on. And respond with proper intervention. Just like any other medical issue.

Most of the ones asking for serious medical intervention are indeed very SURE about it. A small percentage aren't. Life's messy. Especially in middle school & high school.

Thinking back to my gay great aunt and her "roommate" in the midwest. Passed away in her 90's a few years back. I have another family member who doesn't have to hide their spouse behind the "roommate" moniker any more. A lot of changes from 1993 to 2023 as more gay people came out and the rest of America realized their gay friends and family are just normal people born a certain way.

I mean who would honestly choose to be gay in the 90's or earlier, or trans even nowadays? So much of society was and is hell bent on canceling them, or even killing them. Imagine growing up in a religious school where you're told your very existence is a sin against society or god and you deserve to go to hell. Forcing you to be someone you aren't...

Think this is the key. Hell it lead to my depression as an adult as I figured out too late that when you wear a mask long enough you become it for better or worse.

My uncle Charlie was a gay man who came out when he returned home from Korea in the 50s. His brother, my uncle Bill was the tough guy hard ass Irishman who was embarrassed beyond words when one of his friends would inquire if Charlie finally went queer. The 50s were not good times for a gay man.

[Typical Lax Dad]

But a serious question that I’ve wondered is how does one know enough to reject their biological gender at 12? I’m for exploring our humanity as children growing up in all its forms and fashions (despite individualism having gone too far, broadly speaking, IMO). But by declaring one is transgender at that age they are implicitly (or explicitly) rejecting the other right. So I’m against these restrictions but kind of wonder if it’s a mistake to take medical actions at a younger age. Are we going to see multiple surgeries at some point back and forth by/before age 30 in the future? Does it matter? I have to think more surgery is not good physiologically.

I’m sure folks on both sides or whatever will win with this and avoid/refuse having a serious conversation here but as a parent, and I have ones who seem pretty set in what they are but still young, I don’t want to indulge the impulses of my kids with long term consequences just support them exploring what makes them confident standing on their own two feet and knowing they are always supported and loved and that feels like maybe saying “umm yeah, no Daughter, I’m not doing hormone blocking procedures at age 9-10 for you”.

Thought exercise: were you confident in your gender at age 12? Did you even think about it, or was being a dude just "normal"? Did you reject the possibility of being the opposite biological gender at age 12? Most of the human race does that automatically.

IMHO this is something that's so fundamental to one's being. If something's off, they're gonna know sooner or later. And it's not gonna go away like an idiotic hairstyle trend (broccoli cut needs to die). It's there for nearly every moment of every day for the rest of their life.

Another thought exercise: if we could somehow transplant your brain into a woman's body, would you think nothing of it and live the rest of your life in that body? Or would you think something's off? And if you knew you could be (mostly) a man again, do you think you'd try to transition?

Sure there's always attention-seekers out there wanting to be different. A few will hop on the bandwagon and off again. The stats don't seem to show much de-transitioning or going back and forth at all. And most that do de-transition are doing it for social reasons (can't pass, get harrassed, etc), not because they realize they were wrong.

I'd hope most parents would seek the appropriate guided care for their kids. I don't think you jump straight to hormone blockers. Thought it was a fairly drawn out process including therapy and more.

Either way, not looking forward to when our kids hit puberty...

Understood but then in my age and cohort I recall a lot of semester or sophomore year lesbians who got into Sarah McLaughlin, indigo girls and ani deifranco only to get back into guys like me to their chagrin 6-9 months later.

I’ve been waiting to test my son for adhd here even though I suspect he has a little bit of it so feel like meds altering puberty or more long term/permanent feel risky without a very very high degree of certainty. I definitely don’t tell other parents what to do except as their lax coach occasionally but for myself I feel very circumspect about medical actions before like mid teenage years (or later-TBD)

FFG, I was following your train of thought, or at least thought I was, until this last post that's more about questioning/experimenting with one's sexual preference and not questioning of one's gender.

Taking about judgement of people’s understanding of themselves. Hell I didn’t trust my own judgement into my 30s.

Gender and sexual orientation are two different things.

I understand. We’re talking about gender being specifically biological then and only exclusively biological? If that’s the case should we not be able to test at an early age and have definitive answers?

I don't know...but don't believe it to be that simple.... My guess would be to listen to your kids and seek some counsel. Ignoring it and hoping it goes away might not work. It's not teeth!

Ok understood. Then my point if it’s more/not exclusively than biological wasn’t unreasonable then. I certainly wouldn’t ignore it, but I could see a few parents run to the doctor the first time a kid suggests something as well. This isn’t to make any case it’s simply to better understand. But then my metaphor about judgement isn’t unreasonable and it was a metaphor. If one would prefer I could point to kids going to Jeffers at 15 but a metaphor is just that and I like lesbians so I’m sticking with my original one to make the point that a decision like this needs seasoning and thought and so it doesn’t strike me as potentially a tough if not odd decision to go the medical route at an age like 12 and appreciating the bullying/suicide risk there’s still a counterbalancing risk of “oh s**t my kid was wrong”. I mean mine are 8&10 so in theory I’m supposed to be making these decisions soon the way some are presenting it.

In many instances a medical route is determined at birth. There are no easy answers and I don’t believe it’s something that a person would rush into. Good reasons to address it prepuberty and some good reasons not to. It’s case by case, I would imagine. My friends’ daughter that transitioned to male, still likes guys.

[Farfromgeneva]

But a serious question that I’ve wondered is how does one know enough to reject their biological gender at 12? I’m for exploring our humanity as children growing up in all its forms and fashions (despite individualism having gone too far, broadly speaking, IMO). But by declaring one is transgender at that age they are implicitly (or explicitly) rejecting the other right. So I’m against these restrictions but kind of wonder if it’s a mistake to take medical actions at a younger age. Are we going to see multiple surgeries at some point back and forth by/before age 30 in the future? Does it matter? I have to think more surgery is not good physiologically.

I’m sure folks on both sides or whatever will win with this and avoid/refuse having a serious conversation here but as a parent, and I have ones who seem pretty set in what they are but still young, I don’t want to indulge the impulses of my kids with long term consequences just support them exploring what makes them confident standing on their own two feet and knowing they are always supported and loved and that feels like maybe saying “umm yeah, no Daughter, I’m not doing hormone blocking procedures at age 9-10 for you”.

Thought exercise: were you confident in your gender at age 12? Did you even think about it, or was being a dude just "normal"? Did you reject the possibility of being the opposite biological gender at age 12? Most of the human race does that automatically.

IMHO this is something that's so fundamental to one's being. If something's off, they're gonna know sooner or later. And it's not gonna go away like an idiotic hairstyle trend (broccoli cut needs to die). It's there for nearly every moment of every day for the rest of their life.

Another thought exercise: if we could somehow transplant your brain into a woman's body, would you think nothing of it and live the rest of your life in that body? Or would you think something's off? And if you knew you could be (mostly) a man again, do you think you'd try to transition?

Sure there's always attention-seekers out there wanting to be different. A few will hop on the bandwagon and off again. The stats don't seem to show much de-transitioning or going back and forth at all. And most that do de-transition are doing it for social reasons (can't pass, get harrassed, etc), not because they realize they were wrong.

I'd hope most parents would seek the appropriate guided care for their kids. I don't think you jump straight to hormone blockers. Thought it was a fairly drawn out process including therapy and more.

Either way, not looking forward to when our kids hit puberty...

Understood but then in my age and cohort I recall a lot of semester or sophomore year lesbians who got into Sarah McLaughlin, indigo girls and ani deifranco only to get back into guys like me to their chagrin 6-9 months later.

I’ve been waiting to test my son for adhd here even though I suspect he has a little bit of it so feel like meds altering puberty or more long term/permanent feel risky without a very very high degree of certainty. I definitely don’t tell other parents what to do except as their lax coach occasionally but for myself I feel very circumspect about medical actions before like mid teenage years (or later-TBD)

FFG, I was following your train of thought, or at least thought I was, until this last post that's more about questioning/experimenting with one's sexual preference and not questioning of one's gender.

Taking about judgement of people’s understanding of themselves. Hell I didn’t trust my own judgement into my 30s.

Gender and sexual orientation are two different things.

I understand. We’re talking about gender being specifically biological then and only exclusively biological? If that’s the case should we not be able to test at an early age and have definitive answers?

I don't know...but don't believe it to be that simple.... My guess would be to listen to your kids and seek some counsel. Ignoring it and hoping it goes away might not work. It's not teeth!

Ok understood. Then my point if it’s more/not exclusively than biological wasn’t unreasonable then. I certainly wouldn’t ignore it, but I could see a few parents run to the doctor the first time a kid suggests something as well. This isn’t to make any case it’s simply to better understand. But then my metaphor about judgement isn’t unreasonable and it was a metaphor. If one would prefer I could point to kids going to Jeffers at 15 but a metaphor is just that and I like lesbians so I’m sticking with my original one to make the point that a decision like this needs seasoning and thought and so it doesn’t strike me as potentially a tough if not odd decision to go the medical route at an age like 12 and appreciating the bullying/suicide risk there’s still a counterbalancing risk of “oh s**t my kid was wrong”. I mean mine are 8&10 so in theory I’m supposed to be making these decisions soon the way some are presenting it.

In many instances a medical route is determined at birth. There are no easy answers and I don’t believe it’s something that a person would rush into. Good reasons to address it prepuberty and some good reasons not to. It’s case by case, I would imagine. My friends’ daughter that transitioned to male, still likes guys.

I get it, truly idiosyncratic. And I'm still making the point that knowing sexual preference is also fluid as a kid, maybe moreso than gender identity (probably not a great term if it's bologically driven), but to the extent it's a feeling that's not directly tied to biology the metaphor on a kid's judgement remains.

My niece out in Cali who just graduated from Lewis & Clark college in OR - was sure she was going to be a lesbian is as thirsty for guys as Kim Kardashian is for large meaty ones! I asked her and her response cracked me up, shes an outdoors hippy type in some ways, "I wish, I probably would've pulled way more a** in college if I were..."

[Typical Lax Dad]

But a serious question that I’ve wondered is how does one know enough to reject their biological gender at 12? I’m for exploring our humanity as children growing up in all its forms and fashions (despite individualism having gone too far, broadly speaking, IMO). But by declaring one is transgender at that age they are implicitly (or explicitly) rejecting the other right. So I’m against these restrictions but kind of wonder if it’s a mistake to take medical actions at a younger age. Are we going to see multiple surgeries at some point back and forth by/before age 30 in the future? Does it matter? I have to think more surgery is not good physiologically.

I’m sure folks on both sides or whatever will win with this and avoid/refuse having a serious conversation here but as a parent, and I have ones who seem pretty set in what they are but still young, I don’t want to indulge the impulses of my kids with long term consequences just support them exploring what makes them confident standing on their own two feet and knowing they are always supported and loved and that feels like maybe saying “umm yeah, no Daughter, I’m not doing hormone blocking procedures at age 9-10 for you”.

Thought exercise: were you confident in your gender at age 12? Did you even think about it, or was being a dude just "normal"? Did you reject the possibility of being the opposite biological gender at age 12? Most of the human race does that automatically.

IMHO this is something that's so fundamental to one's being. If something's off, they're gonna know sooner or later. And it's not gonna go away like an idiotic hairstyle trend (broccoli cut needs to die). It's there for nearly every moment of every day for the rest of their life.

Another thought exercise: if we could somehow transplant your brain into a woman's body, would you think nothing of it and live the rest of your life in that body? Or would you think something's off? And if you knew you could be (mostly) a man again, do you think you'd try to transition?

Sure there's always attention-seekers out there wanting to be different. A few will hop on the bandwagon and off again. The stats don't seem to show much de-transitioning or going back and forth at all. And most that do de-transition are doing it for social reasons (can't pass, get harrassed, etc), not because they realize they were wrong.

I'd hope most parents would seek the appropriate guided care for their kids. I don't think you jump straight to hormone blockers. Thought it was a fairly drawn out process including therapy and more.

Either way, not looking forward to when our kids hit puberty...

Understood but then in my age and cohort I recall a lot of semester or sophomore year lesbians who got into Sarah McLaughlin, indigo girls and ani deifranco only to get back into guys like me to their chagrin 6-9 months later.

I’ve been waiting to test my son for adhd here even though I suspect he has a little bit of it so feel like meds altering puberty or more long term/permanent feel risky without a very very high degree of certainty. I definitely don’t tell other parents what to do except as their lax coach occasionally but for myself I feel very circumspect about medical actions before like mid teenage years (or later-TBD)

FFG, I was following your train of thought, or at least thought I was, until this last post that's more about questioning/experimenting with one's sexual preference and not questioning of one's gender.

Taking about judgement of people’s understanding of themselves. Hell I didn’t trust my own judgement into my 30s.

Gender and sexual orientation are two different things.

I understand. We’re talking about gender being specifically biological then and only exclusively biological? If that’s the case should we not be able to test at an early age and have definitive answers?

I don't know...but don't believe it to be that simple.... My guess would be to listen to your kids and seek some counsel. Ignoring it and hoping it goes away might not work. It's not teeth!

Ok understood. Then my point if it’s more/not exclusively than biological wasn’t unreasonable then. I certainly wouldn’t ignore it, but I could see a few parents run to the doctor the first time a kid suggests something as well. This isn’t to make any case it’s simply to better understand. But then my metaphor about judgement isn’t unreasonable and it was a metaphor. If one would prefer I could point to kids going to Jeffers at 15 but a metaphor is just that and I like lesbians so I’m sticking with my original one to make the point that a decision like this needs seasoning and thought and so it doesn’t strike me as potentially a tough if not odd decision to go the medical route at an age like 12 and appreciating the bullying/suicide risk there’s still a counterbalancing risk of “oh s**t my kid was wrong”. I mean mine are 8&10 so in theory I’m supposed to be making these decisions soon the way some are presenting it.

In many instances a medical route is determined at birth. There are no easy answers and I don’t believe it’s something that a person would rush into. Good reasons to address it prepuberty and some good reasons not to. It’s case by case, I would imagine. My friends’ daughter that transitioned to male, still likes guys.

I get it, truly idiosyncratic. And I'm still making the point that knowing sexual preference is also fluid as a kid, maybe moreso than gender identity (probably not a great term if it's bologically driven), but to the extent it's a feeling that's not directly tied to biology the metaphor on a kid's judgement remains.

My niece out in Cali who just graduated from Lewis & Clark college in OR - was sure she was going to be a lesbian is as thirsty for guys as Kim Kardashian is for large meaty ones! I asked her and her response cracked me up, shes an outdoors hippy type in some ways, "I wish, I probably would've pulled way more a** in college if I were..."

A lesbian often believes she’s a female not a male. We often confuse gender identity with sexual preference. The two things don’t always go together. Did you see the film The Danish Girl? I love Alicia Vikander.

[MDlaxfan76]

I think these issues are better understood as a spectrum than as binary.

The genetic aspect is actually quite complicated, as the development and expression of genes can create very subtle differences, some of which are environmentally caused expressions, others are random, all with the same fundamental genetic material. These differences add up in all sorts of ways leading to a spectrum of outcomes along multiple dimensions. Gene expression happens in the womb...and subsequently...

My emergency pediatrician pal told us that it was amazing and a bit alarming to her how often (though less than 1%) doctors actually make a choice of what sex to surgically adopt for a newborn, as the sex is too undefined, ambiguous, both...etc...and that's only the outwardly visible at the time of birth....not reflecting all the expression of those genes...she said that doctors had historically had a bias towards male...that was 30+ years ago, so may not be the same today...

So, what differences are not visible? A whole lot...

Can we actually "test" for a binary single genetic difference that determines these matters at any point ?

As to sexual preferences, a whole lot of people can find attraction and pleasure with others regardless of same or "opposite" gender. We deny this all the time as it can be uncomfortable to admit that it could be possible, but just as we might "think" we prefer a redhead over a blonde, or skinny over rounded, and yet find ourselves attracted to someone we didn't expect, so too within gender identities. Most of us put up social walls in this regard so as to conform (which works fine for most of us) but for those with stronger such feelings those social walls are either meant to be breached or they're very emotionally stifling.

Heard a very funny piece by lesbian Tig Notaro the other day on suddenly finding herself very attracted to a man...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-KmqWz5-yw

[Typical Lax Dad]

I think these issues are better understood as a spectrum than as binary.

The genetic aspect is actually quite complicated, as the development and expression of genes can create very subtle differences, some of which are environmentally caused expressions, others are random, all with the same fundamental genetic material. These differences add up in all sorts of ways leading to a spectrum of outcomes along multiple dimensions. Gene expression happens in the womb...and subsequently...

My emergency pediatrician pal told us that it was amazing and a bit alarming to her how often (though less than 1%) doctors actually make a choice of what sex to surgically adopt for a newborn, as the sex is too undefined, ambiguous, both...etc...and that's only the outwardly visible at the time of birth....not reflecting all the expression of those genes...she said that doctors had historically had a bias towards male...that was 30+ years ago, so may not be the same today...

So, what differences are not visible? A whole lot...

Can we actually "test" for a binary single genetic difference that determines these matters at any point ?

As to sexual preferences, a whole lot of people can find attraction and pleasure with others regardless of same or "opposite" gender. We deny this all the time as it can be uncomfortable to admit that it could be possible, but just as we might "think" we prefer a redhead over a blonde, or skinny over rounded, and yet find ourselves attracted to someone we didn't expect, so too within gender identities. Most of us put up social walls in this regard so as to conform (which works fine for most of us) but for those with stronger such feelings those social walls are either meant to be breached or they're very emotionally stifling.

Heard a very funny piece by lesbian Tig Notaro the other day on suddenly finding herself very attracted to a man...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-KmqWz5-yw

I have been telling people this since I learned about it…. “Medical intervention” is often made at birth. It’s such a complicated issue. One size fits all “laws” for this aren’t in anyone’s best interest.

[NattyBohChamps04]

You bring up a valid point. Are you even concerned about why our children are forced to learn in schools that now resemble minimum security prisons? What is your America my friend?? What you fail to address is why a new generation of young people, or at least a disturbing minority of them, want to kill innocent children before they commit suicide by cop.

My America is where kids can go to school without worrying about getting killed in a hailstorm of bullets.

Why do young people (and some old people) wanna kill innocent kids and adults before getting killed themselves? Have you taken a look around lately?

Economic inequality, working 3 jobs just to afford the basics, medical bankruptcy and sky high bills, easy access to guns, inability to buy a home/land, billionaires owning everything, media stoking irrational fears like the trans are coming for you and your kids, the inability to pay for a 4-year college by working a summer or part-time job, global warming, physical abuse at home, easy access to guns, drug epidemic, covid pandemic issues, lack of parental involvement, lack of extracurriculars, feeling like school is a prison, copycat shootings because of media coverage, cultures of violence and easy access to guns, lack of mental health treatment, lack of hope for the future, daycare costs, etc., etc., etc.

[jhu72]

An interesting documentary film explains how and when the Bible decided it needed to take a stance on homosexuality

Apparently God didn't have a lot to say about it. The dumb monkeys did it again!

[cradleandshoot]

You bring up a valid point. Are you even concerned about why our children are forced to learn in schools that now resemble minimum security prisons? What is your America my friend?? What you fail to address is why a new generation of young people, or at least a disturbing minority of them, want to kill innocent children before they commit suicide by cop.

My America is where kids can go to school without worrying about getting killed in a hailstorm of bullets.

Why do young people (and some old people) wanna kill innocent kids and adults before getting killed themselves? Have you taken a look around lately?

Economic inequality, working 3 jobs just to afford the basics, medical bankruptcy and sky high bills, easy access to guns, inability to buy a home/land, billionaires owning everything, media stoking irrational fears like the trans are coming for you and your kids, the inability to pay for a 4-year college by working a summer or part-time job, global warming, physical abuse at home, easy access to guns, drug epidemic, covid pandemic issues, lack of parental involvement, lack of extracurriculars, feeling like school is a prison, copycat shootings because of media coverage, cultures of violence and easy access to guns, lack of mental health treatment, lack of hope for the future, daycare costs, etc., etc., etc.

So what changed from when I graduated from HS in 1976 to graduating from HS in 2023? Are you trying to tell me that the USA has gone to hell in a hand basket only to find a shortage of hand baskets?