FanLax Forum Poll

[DocBarrister]

I have several issues with judging teams based on game scores including... Players and coaches play to win, they don't play to win by as many goals as possible. If the metric used doesn't match the vision and goals of the teams evaluated, it's not a great metric.

It’s not even the final score. Anyone who saw the Virginia-Harvard game knows Harvard wasn’t really competitive against the Cavaliers.

Same goes for Yale against Cornell and Princeton. Yale wasn’t competitive at all.

Not even being competitive is a huge red flag. Arguably even more important than the “L” itself. Plenty of teams in the top 20 could lose to Cornell or Princeton.

But to not even be competitive? If a team isn’t even competitive against Cornell and Princeton, it is questionable whether they should even be ranked, much less in the top 10.

I’m not against Yale. I don’t even care much about mid-season rankings.

What I do object to is completely ignoring what is seen on the field … treating the actual play as an abstraction.

No one in their right mind could watch Yale the last two weeks and think, “Top 10 team.”

DocBarrister

[DocBarrister]

What about Yale & Loyola?

Also curious about them. But P'ton's situation is more extreme.

Princeton sneaks into #25 on the strength of their win. Yale and Loyola holding on to the top 10 based on overall resume. Teams on the upswing like Denver and Gtown just don’t have the records to supplant them yet. Their hold is tenuous based on early season results, but the committee doesn’t take dates into account.

Yale in the top ten???

You can’t be serious.

Bad losses do matter, you know.

DocBarrister

"Bad losses" are to teams outside of the top 30. Margin of loss doesn't have any impact.

They do in the real world.

DocBarrister

Name one "real world" metric where margin of loss counts?

The I-watched-Yale-play-Cornell-and-Princeton-and-Yale-really-sucks-right-now “real world” metric.

DocBarrister

Ah, "real world" == inside your own mind. Unsurprising.

No, “real world”== on the field.

I can see an argument for ranking Yale in the top 20. Ranked in the top 10?!? No way.

DocBarrister

Margin of victory doesn't matter "on the field" either. You either win or lose. No one gets extra points for winning big. It doesn't effect tournament selection or seeding. I don't include margin of victory in my evaluation of teams because its a terrible judge of relative team strength (especially in lacrosse) and its nearly impossible to turn into a standard metric that approaches any semblance of objectivity.

Why even have a human poll if you are going to ignore what you see on the field?

That makes no sense at all.

If you’re going to do that, just have algorithms spit out the results.

DocBarrister

Yale losing big two games in a row is the "shiny new thing". Humans are bad a not over-reacting to the shiny new thing.

Getting pounded into the turf by 10 goals against Cornell and 13 goals by Princeton isn’t a “shiny new thing.”

It’s an old fashioned whuppin’… and a team on the receivin’ end of those whuppins ain’t a top 10 team, much less number 8.

DocBarrister

Ok, then let us know who deserves to be ahead of them, making sure to evaluate margin of victory consistently across the board.

Check out the USILA poll (which for some reason is listed under “WLax.”

https://usila.org/sports/wlax

Check out the media poll.

https://www.insidelacrosse.com/league/DI/polls

Oh, and our own fanlax poll.

DocBarrister

Fanlax is a bit better, but are you seriously linking to the media poll as an example of an objective evaluation?

Did you even watch Yale play Cornell and Princeton?

And there seems to be a broad consensus that your ranking of Yale is way off.

DocBarrister

[ICGrad]

You brought up Loyola as well, which interestingly no one else followed up on. I suspect they are less bothered by it because they see the Maryland win as a "real" top ten win and discount the Villanova win for Yale in the overall calculus.

Personally, I had Loyola @ 19. Two great early season wins but haven't really looked like a top 10 team since.

I think people didn't knee-jerk Loyola because Loyola didn't spend the last two weekends getting absolutely pounded. I was on the Loyola bandwagon early in the season and had them in my top 5, but they seem to be fading.

[rolldodge]

I think people didn't knee-jerk Loyola because Loyola didn't spend the last two weekends getting absolutely pounded.

Loyola got thrashed by Duke, barely squeeked by the RPI #59 team, and got doubled up by Army.

[Matnum PI]

And there seems to be a broad consensus that your ranking of Yale is way off.

And the consensus may be wrong. Not uncommon. I think #8 is a little high but not way off.

[ICGrad]

I think people didn't knee-jerk Loyola because Loyola didn't spend the last two weekends getting absolutely pounded.

Loyola got thrashed by Duke, barely squeeked by the RPI #59 team, and got doubled up by Army.

Like I said, I have them barely in my top 20. I think Bucknell is better than their record but yes, Loyola hasn't looked anywhere near the top 5 (or top 10) team they did early in the season.

Your inclusion of Yale in the top 10 jumped out ()for me at least) because I've watched them get obliterated two weekend in a row, that's all. But I agree with your core premise: Loyola in the top 10 is equally laughable.

[HGK]

We can all use whatever metrics we want but it’s pretty clear we have a top 5 and then a guesstimate on the next 20.

[rolldodge]

I think people didn't knee-jerk Loyola because Loyola didn't spend the last two weekends getting absolutely pounded.

Loyola got thrashed by Duke, barely squeeked by the RPI #59 team, and got doubled up by Army.

Like I said, I have them barely in my top 20. I think Bucknell is better than their record but yes, Loyola hasn't looked anywhere near the top 5 (or top 10) team they did early in the season.

Your inclusion of Yale in the top 10 jumped out ()for me at least) because I've watched them get obliterated two weekend in a row, that's all. But I agree with your core premise: Loyola in the top 10 is equally laughable.

I don't think including either in the top 10 is laughable, just that pollsters are inconsistent with their evaluations and prone to knee-jerk reactions. Polls are relative, so to replace Yale and Loyola in the top 10, you have to present a rationale for which teams replace them. Despite their recent performance, Yale and Loyola have shown that they can beat top 20, 15, 10 and even top 5 teams. Teams go through ups and down throughout the season, but they have proven they have a relatively high ceiling. What other teams have shown that they can do the same, based on actual results and not projections?

[ICGrad]

Not even being competitive is a huge red flag. Arguably even more important than the “L” itself. Plenty of teams in the top 20 could lose to Cornell or Princeton.
DocBarrister

And I think it's exacerbated by the fact that it happened two weeks in a row.

Once, sure maybe a game got away from you. The other team went on an early decisive run and it took the air out of your team and made you abandon your gameplan and then everything just went sideways. But to be run off the field in that fashion two weeks in a row is pretty significant.

[Matnum PI]

Villanova was #8, Brown was unranked. i.e. #38 or lower. That is a pretty good upset...

[Farfromgeneva]

Villanova was #8, Brown was unranked. i.e. #38 or lower. That is a pretty good upset...

I know you don’t want any context but McLane, King, Trevor Yeboah etc being back from a 6 game suspension is a major asterisk with this.

[Matnum PI]

I know you don’t want any context but McLane, King, Trevor Yeboah etc being back from a 6 game suspension is a major asterisk with this.

Agreed and... They won. No asterisks. They won.

[bearlaxfan]

Unusual week- a Monday game, nothing Tuesday, a Wednesday slate with only 1 ranked team (Jacksonville) and then on to Saturday.

[Matnum PI]

Unusual week- a Monday game, nothing Tuesday, a Wednesday slate with only 1 ranked team (Jacksonville) and then on to Saturday.

Best Games in the next 3 Days...
1 Air Force #28 vs #31 Utah 03/29/2023
2 Cleveland State #46 vs #15 Jacksonville 03/29/2023
3 Bellarmine #32 vs #55 Mercer 03/29/2023
4 Quinnipiac #53 vs #39 Manhattan 03/29/2023
5 Detroit Mercy #67 vs #45 Robert Morris 03/29/2023
6 Marist #62 vs #65 Sacred Heart 03/29/2023
7 Canisius #58 vs #70 Siena 03/29/2023
8 Lindenwood #59 vs #74 Queens 03/29/2023
9 VMI #73 vs #61 Mount St Mary's 03/29/2023
10 LIU #66 vs #71 Wagner 03/29/2023

[Matnum PI]

Unusual week- a Monday game, nothing Tuesday, a Wednesday slate with only 1 ranked team (Jacksonville) and then on to Saturday.

Best Games in the next 3 Days...
1 Air Force #28 vs #31 Utah 03/29/2023
2 Cleveland State #46 vs #15 Jacksonville 03/29/2023
3 Bellarmine #32 vs #55 Mercer 03/29/2023
4 Quinnipiac #53 vs #39 Manhattan 03/29/2023
5 Detroit Mercy #67 vs #45 Robert Morris 03/29/2023
6 Marist #62 vs #65 Sacred Heart 03/29/2023
7 Canisius #58 vs #70 Siena 03/29/2023
8 Lindenwood #59 vs #74 Queens 03/29/2023
9 VMI #73 vs #61 Mount St Mary's 03/29/2023
10 LIU #66 vs #71 Wagner 03/29/2023

[MDlaxfan76]

I know you don’t want any context but McLane, King, Trevor Yeboah etc being back from a 6 game suspension is a major asterisk with this.

Agreed and... They won. No asterisks. They won.

Perhaps he meant that the poll, with Brown not in the top 37, might be the asterisk...team may be (now) very much better than the record.

Brown has their work cut out to make it into the IL tourney, but if they do, they could credibly be the #1 or #2 team in the Ivies. I'm projecting Cornell as better, but full strength Brown may very well be better than PU.

[Farfromgeneva]

I know you don’t want any context but McLane, King, Trevor Yeboah etc being back from a 6 game suspension is a major asterisk with this.

Agreed and... They won. No asterisks. They won.

Perhaps he meant that the poll, with Brown not in the top 37, might be the asterisk...team may be (now) very much better than the record.

Brown has their work cut out to make it into the IL tourney, but if they do, they could credibly be the #1 or #2 team in the Ivies. I'm projecting Cornell as better, but full strength Brown may very well be better than PU.

Yea the Quinny loss was bizarre but I think Brown is 6-2 rather than 4-4 if they aren’t down half their starters for UMass and Harvard. This isn’t the same as teams getting better/worse with evolution this was six kids including their top A (T candidate), top O mid and top SSDM all seniors out suspended for a party or related.

[MDlaxfan76]

I know you don’t want any context but McLane, King, Trevor Yeboah etc being back from a 6 game suspension is a major asterisk with this.

Agreed and... They won. No asterisks. They won.

Perhaps he meant that the poll, with Brown not in the top 37, might be the asterisk...team may be (now) very much better than the record.

Brown has their work cut out to make it into the IL tourney, but if they do, they could credibly be the #1 or #2 team in the Ivies. I'm projecting Cornell as better, but full strength Brown may very well be better than PU.

Yea the Quincy loss was bizarre but I think Brown is 6-2 rather than 4-4 if they aren’t down half their starters for UMass and Harvard.

Yup, that said Princeton looks like they're coming on strong.

I love Dartmouth getting mentioned at all, which they have earned, but the reality is that they're not yet a top 20 team. Gotta win another Ivy contest to get there, IMO. That's possible, but no one is going to be taking them for granted now.

[Matnum PI]

Perhaps he meant that the poll... but full strength Brown may very well be better than PU.

Seems like every season, Brown has a yo-yo season. Duke and others will get upset early in the season and then straighten the boat. Brown seems to straighten and then unstraighten and then straighten and then etc. Seemingly most every season.

[Farfromgeneva]

Perhaps he meant that the poll... but full strength Brown may very well be better than PU.

Seems like every season, Brown has a yo-yo season. Duke and others will get upset early in the season and then straighten the boat. Brown seems to straighten and then unstraighten and then straighten and then etc. Seemingly most every season.

They don’t have this happen every season:

https://www.insidelacrosse.com/article/ ... ames/60897

Seven Brown seniors are suspended until March 25 for violations of university policies that include being issued a summons by Providence police for a noise complaint, multiple sources have told Inside Lacrosse. The suspension originally ran through April 7 but was reduced after an additional review.

The suspended players include attackman Devon McLane, middies Logan Paff, Griffin King and Topher Bligh, SSDM Trevor Yeboah-Kodie and defensemen Oscar Hertz and Ben Palin.

Two HM AAs, McLane and YK plus King as a 20pt midfielder last year and 1-2 starting close D.