FanLax Forum Poll

[ICGrad]

because its a terrible judge of relative team strength (especially in lacrosse)

Why? I can't think of any reason why it would be a worse metric than, say, wins and losses on the field. In fact, I would say in some ways it's a better metric.

and its nearly impossible to turn into a standard metric that approaches any semblance of objectivity.

But is it? Don't many major computer models take it into consideration? I'm pretty sure Massey, which has Yale at 21, does, and I believe that several other systems do as well. (ftr, Massey is largely in line with the media poll on the Yale ranking, too...so it's not like that result is just out of left field).

[rolldodge]

Princeton sneaks into #25 on the strength of their win. Yale and Loyola holding on to the top 10 based on overall resume. Teams on the upswing like Denver and Gtown just don’t have the records to supplant them yet. Their hold is tenuous based on early season results, but the committee doesn’t take dates into account.

Yale in the top 10?!? They barely made my poll at all...

They have a top 10 RPI win over Villanova, a top 15 RPI win over Denver and a top 30 RPI (almost top 20) win over UMass. Two of their 3 losses are to top 10 RPI teams. My system is biased toward "big wins".

I don’t mind them being ranked given the win analysis but can’t ignore that D.

The D is definitely trending downward, and if I were to project forward, I would not expect them to stay in the top 10 long. On the other hand, if they turn it around next week and beat Penn, that's another top 15 RPI win.

[rolldodge]

because its a terrible judge of relative team strength (especially in lacrosse)

Why? I can't think of any reason why it would be a worse metric than, say, wins and losses on the field. In fact, I would say in some ways it's a better metric.

and its nearly impossible to turn into a standard metric that approaches any semblance of objectivity.

But is it? Don't many major computer models take it into consideration? I'm pretty sure Massey, which has Yale at 21, does, and I believe that several other systems do as well. (ftr, Massey is largely in line with the media poll on the Yale ranking, too...so it's not like that result is just out of left field).

There are plenty of examples of final four (or even championship) teams losing big in the regular season. And plenty more examples of top teams wining by 1 or 2 to teams outside of the top 30.

[Farfromgeneva]

Bing has a nice record and ice story but their schedule has been super soft.

[Hoxwurth]

Maryland over Notre Dame requires overlooking the Loyola result and the head-to-head. If folks are giving a free pass on that game because it was in February, why not give Duke a free pass for its Jacksonville loss, which was also in February?

[Farfromgeneva]

Princeton sneaks into #25 on the strength of their win. Yale and Loyola holding on to the top 10 based on overall resume. Teams on the upswing like Denver and Gtown just don’t have the records to supplant them yet. Their hold is tenuous based on early season results, but the committee doesn’t take dates into account.

Yale in the top 10?!? They barely made my poll at all...

They have a top 10 RPI win over Villanova, a top 15 RPI win over Denver and a top 30 RPI (almost top 20) win over UMass. Two of their 3 losses are to top 10 RPI teams. My system is biased toward "big wins".

I don’t mind them being ranked given the win analysis but can’t ignore that D.

The D is definitely trending downward, and if I were to project forward, I would not expect them to stay in the top 10 long. On the other hand, if they turn it around next week and beat Penn, that's another top 15 RPI win.

Is it if Penn take the L? Isn’t Novas RPI going to drop when they play Prov and St Johns? Etc.

I’m not even sure the D is trending downward they were pretty bad out of the gate. Take it from a guy who has their D in fantasy lacrosse. My son who’s team it really is asked me if we could just use our backup individual players on roster as substitute for their D which only makes sense when you watch that D all year.

[Matnum PI]

I have several issues with judging teams based on game scores including... Players and coaches play to win, they don't play to win by as many goals as possible. If the metric used doesn't match the vision and goals of the teams evaluated, it's not a great metric.

[Farfromgeneva]

because its a terrible judge of relative team strength (especially in lacrosse)

Why? I can't think of any reason why it would be a worse metric than, say, wins and losses on the field. In fact, I would say in some ways it's a better metric.

and its nearly impossible to turn into a standard metric that approaches any semblance of objectivity.

But is it? Don't many major computer models take it into consideration? I'm pretty sure Massey, which has Yale at 21, does, and I believe that several other systems do as well. (ftr, Massey is largely in line with the media poll on the Yale ranking, too...so it's not like that result is just out of left field).

There are plenty of examples of final four (or even championship) teams losing big in the regular season. And plenty more examples of top teams wining by 1 or 2 to teams outside of the top 30.

Not getting 20+ hung on them two straight weeks.

[Matnum PI]

Maryland over Notre Dame requires overlooking the Loyola result and the head-to-head. If folks are giving a free pass on that game because it was in February, why not give Duke a free pass for its Jacksonville loss, which was also in February?

If it wasn't preseason, it counts...

[Farfromgeneva]

I have several issues with judging teams based on game scores including... Players and coaches play to win, they don't play to win by as many goals as possible. If the metric used doesn't match the vision and goals of the teams evaluated, it's not a great metric.

Go watch the video of the last two yale games and tell me you think in your mind theyre one of the ten best teams in D1 lacrosse today. It was like watching my 4/5 team I coach, who is as unathletic collectively as you could imagine in the south, play St Anthony’s, Brunswick or whoever’s dope in the MIAA these days/

[ICGrad]

Maryland over Notre Dame requires overlooking the Loyola result and the head-to-head. If folks are giving a free pass on that game because it was in February, why not give Duke a free pass for its Jacksonville loss, which was also in February?

I agree, which is why I adjusted Maryland down a bit this week.

[rolldodge]

because its a terrible judge of relative team strength (especially in lacrosse)

Why? I can't think of any reason why it would be a worse metric than, say, wins and losses on the field. In fact, I would say in some ways it's a better metric.

and its nearly impossible to turn into a standard metric that approaches any semblance of objectivity.

But is it? Don't many major computer models take it into consideration? I'm pretty sure Massey, which has Yale at 21, does, and I believe that several other systems do as well. (ftr, Massey is largely in line with the media poll on the Yale ranking, too...so it's not like that result is just out of left field).

There are plenty of examples of final four (or even championship) teams losing big in the regular season. And plenty more examples of top teams wining by 1 or 2 to teams outside of the top 30.

Not getting 20+ hung on them two straight weeks.

Yeah, I'm not going to die on a hill of Yale being a top 10 team. Its where they land for me right now.

You brought up Loyola as well, which interestingly no one else followed up on. I suspect they are less bothered by it because they see the Maryland win as a "real" top ten win and discount the Villanova win for Yale in the overall calculus.

[DocBarrister]

What about Yale & Loyola?

Also curious about them. But P'ton's situation is more extreme.

Princeton sneaks into #25 on the strength of their win. Yale and Loyola holding on to the top 10 based on overall resume. Teams on the upswing like Denver and Gtown just don’t have the records to supplant them yet. Their hold is tenuous based on early season results, but the committee doesn’t take dates into account.

Yale in the top ten???

You can’t be serious.

Bad losses do matter, you know.

DocBarrister

"Bad losses" are to teams outside of the top 30. Margin of loss doesn't have any impact.

They do in the real world.

DocBarrister

Name one "real world" metric where margin of loss counts?

The I-watched-Yale-play-Cornell-and-Princeton-and-Yale-really-sucks-right-now “real world” metric.

DocBarrister

Ah, "real world" == inside your own mind. Unsurprising.

No, “real world”== on the field.

I can see an argument for ranking Yale in the top 20. Ranked in the top 10?!? No way.

DocBarrister

Margin of victory doesn't matter "on the field" either. You either win or lose. No one gets extra points for winning big. It doesn't effect tournament selection or seeding. I don't include margin of victory in my evaluation of teams because its a terrible judge of relative team strength (especially in lacrosse) and its nearly impossible to turn into a standard metric that approaches any semblance of objectivity.

Why even have a human poll if you are going to ignore what you see on the field?

That makes no sense at all.

If you’re going to do that, just have algorithms spit out the results.

DocBarrister

[rolldodge]

What about Yale & Loyola?

Also curious about them. But P'ton's situation is more extreme.

Princeton sneaks into #25 on the strength of their win. Yale and Loyola holding on to the top 10 based on overall resume. Teams on the upswing like Denver and Gtown just don’t have the records to supplant them yet. Their hold is tenuous based on early season results, but the committee doesn’t take dates into account.

Yale in the top ten???

You can’t be serious.

Bad losses do matter, you know.

DocBarrister

"Bad losses" are to teams outside of the top 30. Margin of loss doesn't have any impact.

They do in the real world.

DocBarrister

Name one "real world" metric where margin of loss counts?

The I-watched-Yale-play-Cornell-and-Princeton-and-Yale-really-sucks-right-now “real world” metric.

DocBarrister

Ah, "real world" == inside your own mind. Unsurprising.

No, “real world”== on the field.

I can see an argument for ranking Yale in the top 20. Ranked in the top 10?!? No way.

DocBarrister

Margin of victory doesn't matter "on the field" either. You either win or lose. No one gets extra points for winning big. It doesn't effect tournament selection or seeding. I don't include margin of victory in my evaluation of teams because its a terrible judge of relative team strength (especially in lacrosse) and its nearly impossible to turn into a standard metric that approaches any semblance of objectivity.

Why even have a human poll if you are going to ignore what you see on the field?

That makes no sense at all.

If you’re going to do that, just have algorithms spit out the results.

DocBarrister

Yale losing big two games in a row is the "shiny new thing". Humans are bad a not over-reacting to the shiny new thing. Yale may be a bit too high in the top ten, but this discussion has at least gone from "Yale shouldn't be ranked!!!" to "I can see a case for Yale in the top 20".

[DocBarrister]

What about Yale & Loyola?

Also curious about them. But P'ton's situation is more extreme.

Princeton sneaks into #25 on the strength of their win. Yale and Loyola holding on to the top 10 based on overall resume. Teams on the upswing like Denver and Gtown just don’t have the records to supplant them yet. Their hold is tenuous based on early season results, but the committee doesn’t take dates into account.

Yale in the top ten???

You can’t be serious.

Bad losses do matter, you know.

DocBarrister

"Bad losses" are to teams outside of the top 30. Margin of loss doesn't have any impact.

They do in the real world.

DocBarrister

Name one "real world" metric where margin of loss counts?

The I-watched-Yale-play-Cornell-and-Princeton-and-Yale-really-sucks-right-now “real world” metric.

DocBarrister

Ah, "real world" == inside your own mind. Unsurprising.

No, “real world”== on the field.

I can see an argument for ranking Yale in the top 20. Ranked in the top 10?!? No way.

DocBarrister

Margin of victory doesn't matter "on the field" either. You either win or lose. No one gets extra points for winning big. It doesn't effect tournament selection or seeding. I don't include margin of victory in my evaluation of teams because its a terrible judge of relative team strength (especially in lacrosse) and its nearly impossible to turn into a standard metric that approaches any semblance of objectivity.

Why even have a human poll if you are going to ignore what you see on the field?

That makes no sense at all.

If you’re going to do that, just have algorithms spit out the results.

DocBarrister

Yale losing big two games in a row is the "shiny new thing". Humans are bad a not over-reacting to the shiny new thing.

Getting pounded into the turf by 10 goals against Cornell and 13 goals by Princeton isn’t a “shiny new thing.”

It’s an old fashioned whuppin’… and a team on the receivin’ end of those whuppins ain’t a top 10 team, much less number 8.

DocBarrister

[rolldodge]

What about Yale & Loyola?

Also curious about them. But P'ton's situation is more extreme.

Princeton sneaks into #25 on the strength of their win. Yale and Loyola holding on to the top 10 based on overall resume. Teams on the upswing like Denver and Gtown just don’t have the records to supplant them yet. Their hold is tenuous based on early season results, but the committee doesn’t take dates into account.

Yale in the top ten???

You can’t be serious.

Bad losses do matter, you know.

DocBarrister

"Bad losses" are to teams outside of the top 30. Margin of loss doesn't have any impact.

They do in the real world.

DocBarrister

Name one "real world" metric where margin of loss counts?

The I-watched-Yale-play-Cornell-and-Princeton-and-Yale-really-sucks-right-now “real world” metric.

DocBarrister

Ah, "real world" == inside your own mind. Unsurprising.

No, “real world”== on the field.

I can see an argument for ranking Yale in the top 20. Ranked in the top 10?!? No way.

DocBarrister

Margin of victory doesn't matter "on the field" either. You either win or lose. No one gets extra points for winning big. It doesn't effect tournament selection or seeding. I don't include margin of victory in my evaluation of teams because its a terrible judge of relative team strength (especially in lacrosse) and its nearly impossible to turn into a standard metric that approaches any semblance of objectivity.

Why even have a human poll if you are going to ignore what you see on the field?

That makes no sense at all.

If you’re going to do that, just have algorithms spit out the results.

DocBarrister

Yale losing big two games in a row is the "shiny new thing". Humans are bad a not over-reacting to the shiny new thing.

Getting pounded into the turf by 10 goals against Cornell and 13 goals by Princeton isn’t a “shiny new thing.”

It’s an old fashioned whuppin’… and a team on the receivin’ end of those whuppins ain’t a top 10 team, much less number 8.

DocBarrister

Ok, then let us know who deserves to be ahead of them, making sure to evaluate margin of victory consistently across the board.

[rolldodge]

I have several issues with judging teams based on game scores including... Players and coaches play to win, they don't play to win by as many goals as possible. If the metric used doesn't match the vision and goals of the teams evaluated, it's not a great metric.

Great points. Case in point UVA over Harvard 25-21.

[DocBarrister]

What about Yale & Loyola?

Also curious about them. But P'ton's situation is more extreme.

Princeton sneaks into #25 on the strength of their win. Yale and Loyola holding on to the top 10 based on overall resume. Teams on the upswing like Denver and Gtown just don’t have the records to supplant them yet. Their hold is tenuous based on early season results, but the committee doesn’t take dates into account.

Yale in the top ten???

You can’t be serious.

Bad losses do matter, you know.

DocBarrister

"Bad losses" are to teams outside of the top 30. Margin of loss doesn't have any impact.

They do in the real world.

DocBarrister

Name one "real world" metric where margin of loss counts?

The I-watched-Yale-play-Cornell-and-Princeton-and-Yale-really-sucks-right-now “real world” metric.

DocBarrister

Ah, "real world" == inside your own mind. Unsurprising.

No, “real world”== on the field.

I can see an argument for ranking Yale in the top 20. Ranked in the top 10?!? No way.

DocBarrister

Margin of victory doesn't matter "on the field" either. You either win or lose. No one gets extra points for winning big. It doesn't effect tournament selection or seeding. I don't include margin of victory in my evaluation of teams because its a terrible judge of relative team strength (especially in lacrosse) and its nearly impossible to turn into a standard metric that approaches any semblance of objectivity.

Why even have a human poll if you are going to ignore what you see on the field?

That makes no sense at all.

If you’re going to do that, just have algorithms spit out the results.

DocBarrister

Yale losing big two games in a row is the "shiny new thing". Humans are bad a not over-reacting to the shiny new thing.

Getting pounded into the turf by 10 goals against Cornell and 13 goals by Princeton isn’t a “shiny new thing.”

It’s an old fashioned whuppin’… and a team on the receivin’ end of those whuppins ain’t a top 10 team, much less number 8.

DocBarrister

Ok, then let us know who deserves to be ahead of them, making sure to evaluate margin of victory consistently across the board.

Check out the USILA poll (which for some reason is listed under “WLax.”

https://usila.org/sports/wlax

Check out the media poll.

https://www.insidelacrosse.com/league/DI/polls

Oh, and our own fanlax poll.

DocBarrister

[rolldodge]

What about Yale & Loyola?

Also curious about them. But P'ton's situation is more extreme.

Princeton sneaks into #25 on the strength of their win. Yale and Loyola holding on to the top 10 based on overall resume. Teams on the upswing like Denver and Gtown just don’t have the records to supplant them yet. Their hold is tenuous based on early season results, but the committee doesn’t take dates into account.

Yale in the top ten???

You can’t be serious.

Bad losses do matter, you know.

DocBarrister

"Bad losses" are to teams outside of the top 30. Margin of loss doesn't have any impact.

They do in the real world.

DocBarrister

Name one "real world" metric where margin of loss counts?

The I-watched-Yale-play-Cornell-and-Princeton-and-Yale-really-sucks-right-now “real world” metric.

DocBarrister

Ah, "real world" == inside your own mind. Unsurprising.

No, “real world”== on the field.

I can see an argument for ranking Yale in the top 20. Ranked in the top 10?!? No way.

DocBarrister

Margin of victory doesn't matter "on the field" either. You either win or lose. No one gets extra points for winning big. It doesn't effect tournament selection or seeding. I don't include margin of victory in my evaluation of teams because its a terrible judge of relative team strength (especially in lacrosse) and its nearly impossible to turn into a standard metric that approaches any semblance of objectivity.

Why even have a human poll if you are going to ignore what you see on the field?

That makes no sense at all.

If you’re going to do that, just have algorithms spit out the results.

DocBarrister

Yale losing big two games in a row is the "shiny new thing". Humans are bad a not over-reacting to the shiny new thing.

Getting pounded into the turf by 10 goals against Cornell and 13 goals by Princeton isn’t a “shiny new thing.”

It’s an old fashioned whuppin’… and a team on the receivin’ end of those whuppins ain’t a top 10 team, much less number 8.

DocBarrister

Ok, then let us know who deserves to be ahead of them, making sure to evaluate margin of victory consistently across the board.

Check out the USILA poll (which for some reason is listed under “WLax.”

https://usila.org/sports/wlax

Check out the media poll.

https://www.insidelacrosse.com/league/DI/polls

Oh, and our own fanlax poll.

DocBarrister

Fanlax is a bit better, but are you seriously linking to the media poll as an example of an objective evaluation?

[Farfromgeneva]

because its a terrible judge of relative team strength (especially in lacrosse)

Why? I can't think of any reason why it would be a worse metric than, say, wins and losses on the field. In fact, I would say in some ways it's a better metric.

and its nearly impossible to turn into a standard metric that approaches any semblance of objectivity.

But is it? Don't many major computer models take it into consideration? I'm pretty sure Massey, which has Yale at 21, does, and I believe that several other systems do as well. (ftr, Massey is largely in line with the media poll on the Yale ranking, too...so it's not like that result is just out of left field).

There are plenty of examples of final four (or even championship) teams losing big in the regular season. And plenty more examples of top teams wining by 1 or 2 to teams outside of the top 30.

Not getting 20+ hung on them two straight weeks.

Yeah, I'm not going to die on a hill of Yale being a top 10 team. Its where they land for me right now.

You brought up Loyola as well, which interestingly no one else followed up on. I suspect they are less bothered by it because they see the Maryland win as a "real" top ten win and discount the Villanova win for Yale in the overall calculus.

I mean the Loyola offense looks anemic since like week 2.