All Things Russia & Ukraine

[Typical Lax Dad]

...& still not a Freudian slip. How many years was the now Russian occupied area--Russian territory, as compared to part of an independent Ukraine ? How long was it referred to as part of The Ukraine ?

https://vividmaps.com/old-maps-of-russia/
During the time of Catherine the Great (1729-1796), Russia managed to conquer the lands of the Ottoman Empire and the Crimean Khanate. New cities were established on conquered southern lands: Sevastopol, Odesa, Kherson, Luhansk, Mykolaiv, Yekaterinoslav (now Dnipro), Mariupol, Aleksandrov, Pyatigorsk, Krasnodar.

Here's a different perspective: Ukraine was never Russia.

Ukraine was occupied and subjugated by force.

Ukraine and its people were never treated as equal and equivalent to Russia, rather they were treated effectively as a 'slave' state to be exploited. For instance, Stalin's treatment, Holodomor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

Once relieved of the subjugation by the fall of the Soviet Empire, Ukraine chose to be an independent, sovereign state and the Russian Federation recognized that sovereignty, as did the rest of the world.

Russia is seeking to re-subjugate Ukraine and the Ukrainians, committing war crime atrocities in that effort.

That's revisionist history. Ukrainians were founding members of Russia, the Russian Empire & the USSR. Russia originated with the Kievan Rus who then merged with the Muscovites. The capital & court moved to Moscow. That perspective is like saying Texans aren't Americans. Khrushcev & Brezhnev were Ukrainians. They were treated pretty well.

Talk about “revisionist”!

Your own link claims Russia took these territories by force.

Ask the Ukrainians about their history.

No comment about Holomodor?

Holomodor has nothing to do with national borders. It was an internal power move by Stalin.
Ukrainians were always integral parts of Russian elite & leadership.
Most boundaries were drawn by force (conquest or war), marriage, or purchase.
Belarusians, Ukrainians, Muscovites (& Cossacks) were formative members of the Russian nation.
They were known as the White Rus, Little Rus & Great Rus.
There were also the Black Rus & Red Rus.
Russia was a diverse nation before it was dismembered.
Belarus & Ukraine were part of the core.

Again, that's the Russian perspective, not of the peoples of those former conquered areas.

You're speaking of the Russian Empire, and Soviet Union, not Russia.

And Holomodor was effectively genocide...committed by the Russian power elite (Stalin) against the Ukrainians.

No surprise that they want independence from such.

Old and Manic is on fire today.

[old salt]

...& still not a Freudian slip. How many years was the now Russian occupied area--Russian territory, as compared to part of an independent Ukraine ? How long was it referred to as part of The Ukraine ?

https://vividmaps.com/old-maps-of-russia/
During the time of Catherine the Great (1729-1796), Russia managed to conquer the lands of the Ottoman Empire and the Crimean Khanate. New cities were established on conquered southern lands: Sevastopol, Odesa, Kherson, Luhansk, Mykolaiv, Yekaterinoslav (now Dnipro), Mariupol, Aleksandrov, Pyatigorsk, Krasnodar.

Here's a different perspective: Ukraine was never Russia.

Ukraine was occupied and subjugated by force.

Ukraine and its people were never treated as equal and equivalent to Russia, rather they were treated effectively as a 'slave' state to be exploited. For instance, Stalin's treatment, Holodomor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

Once relieved of the subjugation by the fall of the Soviet Empire, Ukraine chose to be an independent, sovereign state and the Russian Federation recognized that sovereignty, as did the rest of the world.

Russia is seeking to re-subjugate Ukraine and the Ukrainians, committing war crime atrocities in that effort.

That's revisionist history. Ukrainians were founding members of Russia, the Russian Empire & the USSR. Russia originated with the Kievan Rus who then merged with the Muscovites. The capital & court moved to Moscow. That perspective is like saying Texans aren't Americans. Khrushcev & Brezhnev were Ukrainians. They were treated pretty well.

Talk about “revisionist”!

Your own link claims Russia took these territories by force.

Ask the Ukrainians about their history.

No comment about Holomodor?

Holomodor has nothing to do with national borders. It was an internal power move by Stalin.
Ukrainians were always integral parts of Russian elite & leadership.
Most boundaries were drawn by force (conquest or war), marriage, or purchase.
Belarusians, Ukrainians, Muscovites (& Cossacks) were formative members of the Russian nation.
They were known as the White Rus, Little Rus & Great Rus.
There were also the Black Rus & Red Rus.
Russia was a diverse nation before it was dismembered.
Belarus & Ukraine were part of the core.

Again, that's the Russian perspective, not of the peoples of those former conquered areas.
Yes. That's the point. That's why Russia is still in the fight & Putin is still in power.
The majority of the Russian population agree with Putin's version of history.
The "conquered areas" were as often the conquerors as the conquered.

You're speaking of the Russian Empire, and Soviet Union, not Russia.
Russia = Russian Empire for current Russia, Belarus & Ukraine. They were part of the original Russia nation/kingdom.

And Holomodor was effectively genocide...committed by the Russian power elite (Stalin) against the Ukrainians.
So what ? It adds to their sense of grievance. It doesn't make them an independent nation.

No surprise that they want independence from such.
The surprise is they finally fought for it.

[MDlaxfan76]

...& still not a Freudian slip. How many years was the now Russian occupied area--Russian territory, as compared to part of an independent Ukraine ? How long was it referred to as part of The Ukraine ?

https://vividmaps.com/old-maps-of-russia/
During the time of Catherine the Great (1729-1796), Russia managed to conquer the lands of the Ottoman Empire and the Crimean Khanate. New cities were established on conquered southern lands: Sevastopol, Odesa, Kherson, Luhansk, Mykolaiv, Yekaterinoslav (now Dnipro), Mariupol, Aleksandrov, Pyatigorsk, Krasnodar.

Here's a different perspective: Ukraine was never Russia.

Ukraine was occupied and subjugated by force.

Ukraine and its people were never treated as equal and equivalent to Russia, rather they were treated effectively as a 'slave' state to be exploited. For instance, Stalin's treatment, Holodomor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

Once relieved of the subjugation by the fall of the Soviet Empire, Ukraine chose to be an independent, sovereign state and the Russian Federation recognized that sovereignty, as did the rest of the world.

Russia is seeking to re-subjugate Ukraine and the Ukrainians, committing war crime atrocities in that effort.

That's revisionist history. Ukrainians were founding members of Russia, the Russian Empire & the USSR. Russia originated with the Kievan Rus who then merged with the Muscovites. The capital & court moved to Moscow. That perspective is like saying Texans aren't Americans. Khrushcev & Brezhnev were Ukrainians. They were treated pretty well.

Talk about “revisionist”!

Your own link claims Russia took these territories by force.

Ask the Ukrainians about their history.

No comment about Holomodor?

Holomodor has nothing to do with national borders. It was an internal power move by Stalin.
Ukrainians were always integral parts of Russian elite & leadership.
Most boundaries were drawn by force (conquest or war), marriage, or purchase.
Belarusians, Ukrainians, Muscovites (& Cossacks) were formative members of the Russian nation.
They were known as the White Rus, Little Rus & Great Rus.
There were also the Black Rus & Red Rus.
Russia was a diverse nation before it was dismembered.
Belarus & Ukraine were part of the core.

Again, that's the Russian perspective, not of the peoples of those former conquered areas.
Yes. That's the point. That's why Russia is still in the fight & Putin is still in power.
The majority of the Russian population agree with Putin's version of history.
The "conquered areas" were as often the conquerors as the conquered.

You're speaking of the Russian Empire, and Soviet Union, not Russia.
Russia = Russian Empire for current Russia, Belarus & Ukraine. They were part of the original Russia nation/kingdom.

And Holomodor was effectively genocide...committed by the Russian power elite (Stalin) against the Ukrainians.
So what ? It adds to their sense of grievance. It doesn't make them an independent nation.

No surprise that they want independence from such.
The surprise is they finally fought for it.

No, Russia does NOT = Russian Empire, nor does it mean the Soviet Union. Not historically, not now.

Especially not now. The Russian Federation does NOT include Ukraine, Belarus, the Baltics, none of that. They recognized the independent sovereignty of Ukraine, as did the rest of the world and THAT is what makes Ukraine NOW an independent state...again..

And genocide of one's conquered areas does NOT make them Russian.

But hey, you keep believing that the only valid perspective is the Russian perspective. Makes sense given some of your other ideological bents.

But no, I bet those million well educated Russian families who fled Russia after the invasion don't agree with Putin's view of Ukraine as being unworthy of independence, subject to war crimes...nope, not the well educated...but sure, if you shut off dissent and propagandize enough, you can get less educated people to believe almost anything. And they've been at that program for a long time, with only a short period of relief in the '90's and early 2000's.

Note, there's quite a few Americans who have either bought into, dumbly, or see it in their interest politically, to drive a similar propaganda program here in the US. Yup, one that began to get challenged in the '60's...slavery wasn't actually bad, black families were treated well during slavery and Jim Crow, the problem with black and brown people is 'cultural' and IQ, "Orientals" are tricky, can't tell what they're thinking, indigenous people, "Indians" deserved to be sent to reservations because they didn't defend their lands well, their problem now is "cultural", and whites, more importantly "Western Civilization" are simply superior...and oh yeah, there are two sexes only, with natural differences that make it godly, 'see it's in the Bible', for men to rule over women...and climate change is a hoax...

[FannOLax]

Would England be justified in sending its army and navy to Ireland to re-incorporate all of Ireland into the United Kingdom? Would the UK be insane enough to even contemplate an all-out war on Ireland? No, but Putin is.

[MDlaxfan76]

Would England be justified in sending its army and navy to Ireland to re-incorporate all of Ireland into the United Kingdom? Would the UK be insane enough to even contemplate an all-out war on Ireland? No, but Putin is.

Salty would say that the English would be fully justified in doing so, bombing civilians on purpose, raping women, deporting children to re-education camps then placed with patriotic English parents...heck, they speak the same language, don't they?

[old salt]

Slovakia and Poland have now pledged 17 MiGs to Ukraine. I doubt these pledges were made without at least some informal assurances that the United States would replace these with more modern fighter jets.

The government of Slovakia said on Friday that it would send 13 Soviet-designed fighter jets to Ukraine, a day after a similar announcement by Poland’s president, marking a possibly significant shift from NATO allies in increasing arms supplies for Kyiv.

Slovakia, which borders both Ukraine and Poland, had said months ago that it was ready to send MIG-29 fighter jets to Ukraine. “Promises must be kept,” Slovakia’s prime minister, Eduard Heger, wrote on Twitter. He did not specify the timing of any delivery.

The news came a day after a surprise announcement by Poland’s president that his country would send four MIG-29 jets to Ukraine within days, a move that appeared intended to open the door to more advanced warplanes from NATO allies. These would be the first warplanes sent to Ukraine by a NATO country since Russia launched its full-scale invasion last year.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/17/worl ... mig29.html

Bottom line … the floodgates have been opened for fighter jets.

DocBarrister

But they're running out of Migs to flood in.

The Slovaks retired their 11 Mig-29's last summer. The un-flyable ones will be used for spare parts.
Slovakia is currently without fighters. The Czech AF's 12 leased Grippens are defending Slovakia's airspace until the Slovaks receive 14 new F-16s currently on LM's production line in Greenville, SC, due for delivery in 2024. Slovak pilots & maint crews are currently training with the USAF ANG in AZ.

Poland currently has 48 operational F-16's. They will begin taking delivery of Korean made AF-50's this summer & F-35's in 2024.

Bulgaria still has a few barely airworthy Mig-29's they're stubbornly holding onto until their new F-16's arrive in 2027. They're scrounging for used French Mirage 2000's or Rafels as a short term stopgap.

Norway, Denmark, Netherlanda, & Belgium are all in the process of retiring their European assembled NATO spec F-16's which received a Mid Life Upgrade (MLU). They're being sold off as they are replaced by F-35's. Most of Norway's are going to Romania. Norway has set up a depot level maint facility that could still service remaining NATO F-16's, as could Poland. The remainder of Norway's F-16's, but it will take time & comes at huge a cost that nobody wants to pay for, including the US. There are more urgent needs for donor funds, military & non-military.
The Ukrainians are going to need to get by with Mig-29's until they can find donors will to fund the stand up of a F-16 capability.

[old salt]

Would England be justified in sending its army and navy to Ireland to re-incorporate all of Ireland into the United Kingdom? Would the UK be insane enough to even contemplate an all-out war on Ireland? No, but Putin is.

Salty would say that the English would be fully justified in doing so, bombing civilians on purpose, raping women, deporting children to re-education camps then placed with patriotic English parents...heck, they speak the same language, don't they?

Bogus analogy. I'm not saying what's justified. I'm telling you what the Russians believe, based on their history.
The Ukrainians were willing, even eager, founding members of Mother Russia, the Russian Empire & the USSR.
You can't erase or rewrite that history. They were Russians, living in the Ukraine before, during & after the Holodomor.
All your opportunistic virtue signalling woke revisionism does not change history
obtw. You omit Northern Ireland from your bogus analogy.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Would England be justified in sending its army and navy to Ireland to re-incorporate all of Ireland into the United Kingdom? Would the UK be insane enough to even contemplate an all-out war on Ireland? No, but Putin is.

Salty would say that the English would be fully justified in doing so, bombing civilians on purpose, raping women, deporting children to re-education camps then placed with patriotic English parents...heck, they speak the same language, don't they?

Bogus analogy. I'm not saying what's justified. I'm telling you what the Russians believe, based on their history.
The Ukrainians were willing, even eager, founding members of Mother Russia, the Russian Empire & the USSR.
You can't erase or rewrite that history. They were Russians, living in the Ukraine before, during & after the Holodomor.
obtw. You omit Northern Ireland from your bogus analogy.

Which Russians?

[old salt]

Would England be justified in sending its army and navy to Ireland to re-incorporate all of Ireland into the United Kingdom? Would the UK be insane enough to even contemplate an all-out war on Ireland? No, but Putin is.

Salty would say that the English would be fully justified in doing so, bombing civilians on purpose, raping women, deporting children to re-education camps then placed with patriotic English parents...heck, they speak the same language, don't they?

Bogus analogy. I'm not saying what's justified. I'm telling you what the Russians believe, based on their history.
The Ukrainians were willing, even eager, founding members of Mother Russia, the Russian Empire & the USSR.
You can't erase or rewrite that history. They were Russians, living in the Ukraine before, during & after the Holodomor.
All your opportunistic virtue signalling woke revisionism does not change history
obtw. You omit Northern Ireland from your bogus analogy.

Which Russians?

The ones still there who still support Putin.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Would England be justified in sending its army and navy to Ireland to re-incorporate all of Ireland into the United Kingdom? Would the UK be insane enough to even contemplate an all-out war on Ireland? No, but Putin is.

Salty would say that the English would be fully justified in doing so, bombing civilians on purpose, raping women, deporting children to re-education camps then placed with patriotic English parents...heck, they speak the same language, don't they?

Bogus analogy. I'm not saying what's justified. I'm telling you what the Russians believe, based on their history.
The Ukrainians were willing, even eager, founding members of Mother Russia, the Russian Empire & the USSR.
You can't erase or rewrite that history. They were Russians, living in the Ukraine before, during & after the Holodomor.
obtw. You omit Northern Ireland from your bogus analogy.

Which Russians?

The ones still there who still support Putin.

When did you last hear from them?

[old salt]

Would England be justified in sending its army and navy to Ireland to re-incorporate all of Ireland into the United Kingdom? Would the UK be insane enough to even contemplate an all-out war on Ireland? No, but Putin is.

Salty would say that the English would be fully justified in doing so, bombing civilians on purpose, raping women, deporting children to re-education camps then placed with patriotic English parents...heck, they speak the same language, don't they?

Bogus analogy. I'm not saying what's justified. I'm telling you what the Russians believe, based on their history.
The Ukrainians were willing, even eager, founding members of Mother Russia, the Russian Empire & the USSR.
You can't erase or rewrite that history. They were Russians, living in the Ukraine before, during & after the Holodomor.
obtw. You omit Northern Ireland from your bogus analogy.

Which Russians?

The ones still there who still support Putin.

When did you last hear from them?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/896 ... ng-russia/
https://carnegiemoscow.org/commentary/60849

[Typical Lax Dad]

Would England be justified in sending its army and navy to Ireland to re-incorporate all of Ireland into the United Kingdom? Would the UK be insane enough to even contemplate an all-out war on Ireland? No, but Putin is.

Salty would say that the English would be fully justified in doing so, bombing civilians on purpose, raping women, deporting children to re-education camps then placed with patriotic English parents...heck, they speak the same language, don't they?

Bogus analogy. I'm not saying what's justified. I'm telling you what the Russians believe, based on their history.
The Ukrainians were willing, even eager, founding members of Mother Russia, the Russian Empire & the USSR.
You can't erase or rewrite that history. They were Russians, living in the Ukraine before, during & after the Holodomor.
obtw. You omit Northern Ireland from your bogus analogy.

Which Russians?

The ones still there who still support Putin.

When did you last hear from them?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/896 ... ng-russia/
https://carnegiemoscow.org/commentary/60849

“I'm telling you what the Russians believe, based on their history.”

Did the polling concern ask this question?

How do we not know that the peasants approve of Putin running the Nazis out of The Ukraine?

[Farfromgeneva]

Would England be justified in sending its army and navy to Ireland to re-incorporate all of Ireland into the United Kingdom? Would the UK be insane enough to even contemplate an all-out war on Ireland? No, but Putin is.

Salty would say that the English would be fully justified in doing so, bombing civilians on purpose, raping women, deporting children to re-education camps then placed with patriotic English parents...heck, they speak the same language, don't they?

Bogus analogy. I'm not saying what's justified. I'm telling you what the Russians believe, based on their history.
The Ukrainians were willing, even eager, founding members of Mother Russia, the Russian Empire & the USSR.
You can't erase or rewrite that history. They were Russians, living in the Ukraine before, during & after the Holodomor.
obtw. You omit Northern Ireland from your bogus analogy.

Which Russians?

The ones still there who still support Putin.

When did you last hear from them?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/896 ... ng-russia/
https://carnegiemoscow.org/commentary/60849

“I'm telling you what the Russians believe, based on their history.”

Did the polling concern ask this question?

How do we not know that the peasants approve of Putin running the Nazis out of The Ukraine?

They don't call it Northern Ireland, it's just "the north".

Did we just compare Ukraine to RIRA and Omagh??? Are we going to compare the Big Fellah MC to Zelenskyy?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V_ZEzdlteY

[a fan]

If the plan is to "think like a Russian", then you have to follow through, and not just pick and choose to do it here and there.

1. Russians think that Ukraine is theirs...who cares why. There will be no peace until they own every last inch. Act accordingly
2. Putin will not sue for peace until his popularity ratings drop. Act accordingly.
3. The Russians will not give up Crimea. Act accordingly

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/17/opinions ... index.html

Russia would like to pretend the Black Sea is its personal pond, but these are international waters bordered by Bulgaria, Georgia, Romania and Turkey as well — all but one are NATO members. The rules surrounding international waters and airspace are clear: National sovereignty extends no further than 12 nautical miles from the nearest coastline or border. If Russia wants to dispatch nuclear-capable bombers just farther than 12 nautical miles off the coast of Alaska, it can and has done so without major incident.

In the current case, Russia is insisting the drone was in an exclusion zone it asserted around Ukraine for its “special military operation” (i.e. a full-fledged war of conquest). While countries claim all kinds of additional jurisdictions like exclusive economic zones and air defense identification zones, the 12 nautical mile rule is the only one that has indisputable weight internationally.

In the current case, the US has responded so far by dressing down the Russian ambassador over the incident. The Pentagon might also decide to send manned fighters to escort drones to dissuade harassment. But this is something that couldn’t be sustained indefinitely; the point of drones is they’re generally much less costly per hour to operate than fighters and put personnel at less risk. Alternatively, the drones could be armed with their own air-to-air missiles.

[cradleandshoot]

If the plan is to "think like a Russian", then you have to follow through, and not just pick and choose to do it here and there.

1. Russians think that Ukraine is theirs...who cares why. There will be no peace until they own every last inch. Act accordingly
2. Putin will not sue for peace until his popularity ratings drop. Act accordingly.
3. The Russians will not give up Crimea. Act accordingly

You forgot option #4. That involves a frustrated member of Putins inner circle putting a bullet in his brain or a knife to his heart. As harsh as that sounds it would probably be a step in the right direction.

[cradleandshoot]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/17/opinions ... index.html

Russia would like to pretend the Black Sea is its personal pond, but these are international waters bordered by Bulgaria, Georgia, Romania and Turkey as well — all but one are NATO members. The rules surrounding international waters and airspace are clear: National sovereignty extends no further than 12 nautical miles from the nearest coastline or border. If Russia wants to dispatch nuclear-capable bombers just farther than 12 nautical miles off the coast of Alaska, it can and has done so without major incident.

In the current case, Russia is insisting the drone was in an exclusion zone it asserted around Ukraine for its “special military operation” (i.e. a full-fledged war of conquest). While countries claim all kinds of additional jurisdictions like exclusive economic zones and air defense identification zones, the 12 nautical mile rule is the only one that has indisputable weight internationally.

In the current case, the US has responded so far by dressing down the Russian ambassador over the incident. The Pentagon might also decide to send manned fighters to escort drones to dissuade harassment. But this is something that couldn’t be sustained indefinitely; the point of drones is they’re generally much less costly per hour to operate than fighters and put personnel at less risk. Alternatively, the drones could be armed with their own air-to-air missiles.

How about a self destruct mechanism on the drone? When the MiG gets too close whammo blammo the MiG goes down with the drone. Is sacrificing a 32 million dollar drone worth it if you can splash a Russian MiG in the process?

[MDlaxfan76]

Would England be justified in sending its army and navy to Ireland to re-incorporate all of Ireland into the United Kingdom? Would the UK be insane enough to even contemplate an all-out war on Ireland? No, but Putin is.

Salty would say that the English would be fully justified in doing so, bombing civilians on purpose, raping women, deporting children to re-education camps then placed with patriotic English parents...heck, they speak the same language, don't they?

Bogus analogy. I'm not saying what's justified. I'm telling you what the Russians believe, based on their history.
The Ukrainians were willing, even eager, founding members of Mother Russia, the Russian Empire & the USSR.
You can't erase or rewrite that history. They were Russians, living in the Ukraine before, during & after the Holodomor.
All your opportunistic virtue signalling woke revisionism does not change history
obtw. You omit Northern Ireland from your bogus analogy.

I understand fully the "Russian" perspective of their history.

I also understand the Ukrainian perspective of their history.

You state as facts, congruent with the Russian perspective, what is very much in dispute from the Ukrainian perspective.

You double down and triple down on this, which has no purpose other than to "justify" the Russian perspective, and thus, actions.

You dismiss Russian genocide as "virtue signaling"...straight out of Russian propaganda.

And no, I'm quite confident FannOLax did not omit Northern Ireland, nor did I.

[MDlaxfan76]

If the plan is to "think like a Russian", then you have to follow through, and not just pick and choose to do it here and there.

1. Russians think that Ukraine is theirs...who cares why. There will be no peace until they own every last inch. Act accordingly
2. Putin will not sue for peace until his popularity ratings drop. Act accordingly.
3. The Russians will not give up Crimea. Act accordingly

Exactly...Putin has been telling the world his intentions with for well over a decade...he means it and won't stop, until stopped.

I expect the Chinese will present a "truce" in the next weeks, which will be nothing more than a pause to enable Russia to build more weapons, train more combatants.

The Ukrainians will reject it and push forward over the next few months.

[DocBarrister]

If the plan is to "think like a Russian", then you have to follow through, and not just pick and choose to do it here and there.

1. Russians think that Ukraine is theirs...who cares why. There will be no peace until they own every last inch. Act accordingly
2. Putin will not sue for peace until his popularity ratings drop. Act accordingly.
3. The Russians will not give up Crimea. Act accordingly

Exactly...Putin has been telling the world his intentions with for well over a decade...he means it and won't stop, until stopped.

I expect the Chinese will present a "truce" in the next weeks, which will be nothing more than a pause to enable Russia to build more weapons, train more combatants.

The Ukrainians will reject it and push forward over the next few months.

Over the past century, Russia has proven to be a highly malignant and destabilizing state.

Long term strategic planning should include efforts to promote the further dissolution of the Russian Federation, which is little more than a rump version of the Russian Empire and Soviet Union. Russia needs to be neutralized as a military power, and the unfortunate Ukrainians are shouldering the tragic burdens of that effort.

DocBarrister