All Things Russia & Ukraine

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DocBarrister
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by DocBarrister »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:20 pm
a fan wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:54 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:23 pm
a fan wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 1:02 pm Even cutting Russian oil revenue by a third “would be a severe hit to GDP, but it would not bankrupt the state and it would not lead to a crash,” he said. “I think from now on, we are talking about gradual changes to the economy.”

He said the real impact will be long term. The loss of Western technology such as advanced computer chips means an economy permanently stuck in low gear.

Russia may have successfully restarted factories after the Western exodus, “but the business case for producing something sophisticated in Russia is gone, and it’s not coming back,” Kluge said.



https://apnews.com/article/russian-econ ... b58590f7f0
More than a million of the highest educated Russians and their families have left Russia and will not go back...much more important long term than the loss of oil revenue.
It's all about long term.

Putin is a moron. There was NOTHING keeping him from making the US their key trading partner. Nothing. Zippo. Make Moscow a tourist trap. Make it cool for America's 1%ers to fly to their ski resorts. Market to the global 1%ers. Instead? Fake worries about "NATO invasions"...when even a five year old understands that if NATO wanted to do that, it would have done it waaaaay back in the 90's, the instant the Soviets fell apart.

Putin could have made NATO utterly irrelevant via trade.

One man's way of thinking is screwing an entire nation for generations---and screwing his neighbors, too. It's sad to watch.
Agreed; an enormous missed opportunity.
Imagine if Putin had invested Russian fossil fuel export revenues in biotech, consumer electronics, and high tech? Imagine if Putin had invested his nation’s wealth into education and training for an emerging green economy?

What if Putin had invested in his people instead of sending them for slaughter in wasteful, cruel, and criminal wars?

Putin had a once-in-a-century opportunity to transform Russia into a global economic power for the 21st-century.

Instead, he and his cronies stole much of the nation’s wealth and wasted what remained in numerous murderous wars.

Putin is one of the worst leaders in human history. He had delusions of becoming Peter the Great. Instead, he ruined Russia and may have doomed his nation to third-tier status.

What an @$$hole ….

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old salt
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by old salt »

SCLaxAttack wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 12:29 pm
old salt wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:45 am
SCLaxAttack wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 7:37 am
old salt wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 5:54 pm Let's see the drone's video of the "environmentally unsound" intercept.

Given the position of the prop on the Reaper, right behind to the taller V tail, it's difficult to picture a mid-air collision without also striking the tail structure. That could have also brought down the SU-27.

Our US statement indicates that it was still in controlled flight, since a decision was made to ditch it in the sea.
It could have been gliding after engine failure or severe vibrations from an unbalanced, damaged prop.

A more likely tactic to bring down the Reaper was to dump fuel, which would have been ingested into the Reaper's engine intake, causing a compressor stall (possibly explosive), or engine fire & engine failure.
The video, without comment (which in itself is comment):

https://apple.news/AG4RsssIaQ2W7PLRllv3Vxw
I don't think the SU-27 struck the prop on that pass. The prop tips were not bent & the picture stayed stable. That showed the fuel dumping & a close pass. There would have been an immediate shutter & vibration with a prop strike. There's a still video image that shows bent prop tips.
Maybe you've seen a different video. The video I linked shows two passes, not one. On the first pass that jet gets close and there is slight pixelation of the video. I don't know if there's a correlation of pass-by distance and pixel. On the second pass the video seems to show that jet getting closer than the first (unless the jets were different sizes), there's more pixelation of the video, and the video then shows (the result in the video - not just of a still video image) bent prop tips.

Might a jet flying past electronics at extremely close range possibly cause vibration strong enough to cause pixelation of a digital camera's video?

But you're right, despite there being no video (or at least no published video, Deep State and all that), it remains possible that a jet fuel dump got ingested. Pretty thick fuel to bend that prop though, but as a retired Navy pilot you'd know better than I.
Wake turbulence from the fighter may have disrupted the video feed.
I think the plan was probably to make close passes & dump fuel, hoping to cause a flame out from the fuel mist or cause the drone to depart from controlled flight due to wake turbulence from the fighter. On one of the 19 passes (probably the 19th) the pilot gooned it, got too close & clipped a prop tip with his wing tip. Otherwise, the prop damage would have been more significant. The fighter was fortunate to not have damaged a control surface in the collision. Anything more & the midair collision would have been violent enough to be seen on the video or it would have immediately ended the video feed. The Russians were lucky not to have lost their Flanker.
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old salt
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by old salt »

Finally. Poland is giving their Mig-29's to Ukraine. 4 immediately. More to follow soon. Hopefully, Slovokia will follow with their Mig-29s.
This is the best solution. The Ukrainians can pilot & maintain them immediately. They will be useful in knocking down incoming cruise missiles & drones. It will be interesting to see how they'll be employed to avoid the threat of Russian SAMs & to see if they've McGivered any additional western missiles as they have with US HARM's -- anti-radiation missiles to take out air defense radars.

This is the quickest & least escalatory way to get them fighter jets that they can use immediately.
They are primarily air defense fighters with a limited deep strike capability.

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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by old salt »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:20 pm
a fan wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:54 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:23 pm
a fan wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 1:02 pm Even cutting Russian oil revenue by a third “would be a severe hit to GDP, but it would not bankrupt the state and it would not lead to a crash,” he said. “I think from now on, we are talking about gradual changes to the economy.”

He said the real impact will be long term. The loss of Western technology such as advanced computer chips means an economy permanently stuck in low gear.

Russia may have successfully restarted factories after the Western exodus, “but the business case for producing something sophisticated in Russia is gone, and it’s not coming back,” Kluge said.



https://apnews.com/article/russian-econ ... b58590f7f0
More than a million of the highest educated Russians and their families have left Russia and will not go back...much more important long term than the loss of oil revenue.
It's all about long term.

Putin is a moron. There was NOTHING keeping him from making the US their key trading partner. Nothing. Zippo. Make Moscow a tourist trap. Make it cool for America's 1%ers to fly to their ski resorts. Market to the global 1%ers. Instead? Fake worries about "NATO invasions"...when even a five year old understands that if NATO wanted to do that, it would have done it waaaaay back in the 90's, the instant the Soviets fell apart.

Putin could have made NATO utterly irrelevant via trade.

One man's way of thinking is screwing an entire nation for generations---and screwing his neighbors, too. It's sad to watch.
Agreed; an enormous missed opportunity.
We tried after the Wall came down & into the '90's. It was a good faith effort on our part.
GHW Bush was serious in hoping that Russia would one day join NATO. He did not want to see Russia/USSR dismembered. He wanted the CIS to succeed. Clinton partied hard with Boris. Then Putin came to power & the dream died. We're now dealing with the aftermath & clean up.
Russia's a lost cause now. Climate deniers. No Drag Queen story hours.
Last edited by old salt on Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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old salt
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by old salt »

Typical Lax Dad wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:16 pm
19 passes

https://abcnews.go.com/US/us-military-r ... d=97902649
2 such on the video...the first shows fuel dump, but no damage.
The second shows fuel dump but closer pass and after the interruption of the video (Salty's shudder and vibration), the damaged propeller is clear.

The military say the entire set of maneuvers were dangerous and illegal, the actual contact likely incompetence rather than intentional contact, given risk to their own plane.

Can't be sure, of course, as clearly the effort was to force the drone down with the fuel dumps and the pilot may have been frustrated that fuel dumps were insufficient...but more likely just wanted more fuel to hit the drone harder.
The Americans are lying about it. Trust the Russians.
You can't fix stupid.

The Russians blew up Nordstream.
https://apnews.com/article/us-germany-r ... 9352a28c24
In the immediate aftermath of the explosions, U.S. officials suggested Russia may have been to blame
PizzaSnake
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by PizzaSnake »

old salt wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 10:53 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:16 pm
19 passes

https://abcnews.go.com/US/us-military-r ... d=97902649
2 such on the video...the first shows fuel dump, but no damage.
The second shows fuel dump but closer pass and after the interruption of the video (Salty's shudder and vibration), the damaged propeller is clear.

The military say the entire set of maneuvers were dangerous and illegal, the actual contact likely incompetence rather than intentional contact, given risk to their own plane.

Can't be sure, of course, as clearly the effort was to force the drone down with the fuel dumps and the pilot may have been frustrated that fuel dumps were insufficient...but more likely just wanted more fuel to hit the drone harder.
The Americans are lying about it. Trust the Russians.
You can't fix stupid.

The Russians blew up Nordstream.
https://apnews.com/article/us-germany-r ... 9352a28c24
In the immediate aftermath of the explosions, U.S. officials suggested Russia may have been to blame
Indeed.
"There is nothing more difficult and more dangerous to carry through than initiating changes. One makes enemies of those who prospered under the old order, and only lukewarm support from those who would prosper under the new."
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old salt
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by old salt »

old salt wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 10:20 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:20 pm
a fan wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:54 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:23 pm
a fan wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 1:02 pmEven cutting Russian oil revenue by a third “would be a severe hit to GDP, but it would not bankrupt the state and it would not lead to a crash,” he said. “I think from now on, we are talking about gradual changes to the economy.”

He said the real impact will be long term. The loss of Western technology such as advanced computer chips means an economy permanently stuck in low gear.

Russia may have successfully restarted factories after the Western exodus, “but the business case for producing something sophisticated in Russia is gone, and it’s not coming back,” Kluge said.
More than a million of the highest educated Russians and their families have left Russia and will not go back...much more important long term than the loss of oil revenue.
It's all about long term. Putin is a moron. There was NOTHING keeping him from making the US their key trading partner. Nothing. Zippo. Make Moscow a tourist trap. Make it cool for America's 1%ers to fly to their ski resorts. Market to the global 1%ers. Instead? Fake worries about "NATO invasions"...when even a five year old understands that if NATO wanted to do that, it would have done it waaaaay back in the 90's, the instant the Soviets fell apart.
Putin could have made NATO utterly irrelevant via trade.
One man's way of thinking is screwing an entire nation for generations---and screwing his neighbors, too. It's sad to watch.
Agreed; an enormous missed opportunity.
We tried after the Wall came down & into the '90's. It was a good faith effort on our part.
GHW Bush was serious in hoping that Russia would one day join NATO. He did not want to see Russia/USSR dismembered. He wanted the CIS to succeed. Clinton partied hard with Boris. Then Putin came to power & the dream died. We're now dealing with the aftermath & clean up.
Russia's a lost cause now. Climate deniers. No Drag Queen story hours.
Right on cue, in my email inbox : a lengthy article from Foreign Affairs on this very issue.
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/ukraine/ ... -%20112017

The Russia That Might Have Been
How Moscow Squandered Its Power and Influence

by Alexander Gabuev, March 13, 2023

In the 12 months since Russian President Vladimir Putin decided to invade Ukraine, the war has turned into an accelerating disaster for Russia. Although Ukrainians are the primary victims of the Kremlin’s unprovoked aggression, the war has already left hundreds of thousands of Russian soldiers dead or wounded. Unprecedented Western sanctions have squeezed the Russian economy, and Moscow’s large-scale mobilization and wartime crackdown on civil society have caused hundreds of thousands of the country’s high-skilled workers to flee abroad. Yet the greatest long-term cost of the war to Russia may be in permanently foreclosing the promise of Russia occupying a peaceful and prosperous place in the twenty-first-century world order.

The current trajectory of Russia’s foreign policy was not predestined, and there were many chances for the Kremlin to do things differently. For much of the last 20 years—even following the illegal annexation of Crimea in 2014—Russia had a historic opening to build a dynamic new place for itself in the international system. When Putin was sworn in as president, in May 2000, Russia was entering a period of greater possibility—both within and beyond its borders—than at any other point in its history. Internally, Russia had survived the collapse of the USSR and the tumultuous 1990s to go from an empire to an influential nation-state in the making. Despite the horrendous wars in Chechnya, Russia was, by the turn of the century, largely stable and at peace. Its planned economy had given way to an adaptable market economy. It was an imperfect but vibrant democracy.

Then, around 2003, Russia got lucky. The U.S. invasion of Iraq coupled with China’s spectacular economic boom led to a sharp increase in global commodity prices. The Kremlin’s coffers were suddenly flooded with revenues from the sale of oil, gas, metals, fertilizers, and other products on the global market. This windfall allowed Russia to quickly repay its foreign debts and nearly double its GDP during Putin’s first two presidential terms. Despite mounting corruption, most ordinary Russians found that their incomes were rising. Compared with their troubled imperial and Soviet past, Russians had never been so prosperous and, simultaneously, so free as in the first decade of the twenty-first century. With these strong economic and political foundations, Russia was well positioned to become a global power between East and West—benefiting from its links to both Europe and Asia, and focused on internal development.

Now, Putin has squandered all that. Driven by his growing appetite for power, Russia has been transformed into an authoritarian regime over the past decade, with Russian society and the country’s elite largely unable and unwilling to hinder the process. That transformation is largely responsible for Moscow’s failure to grasp these opportunities and redefine Russia’s world stature. Instead, Putin’s steady accumulation of power transformed a robust foreign-policy-making process, rooted in impartial analysis and interagency deliberations, into an increasingly personalized one. As a result, Putin and his inner circle succumbed to growing paranoia about perceived military threats from the West, and their decisions did not undergo the intellectual and institutional scrutiny they needed. Ultimately, this drove the nation into the strategic and moral catastrophe of its war in Ukraine.

BRIGHT, CONFIDENT MORNING
When Putin came to power in 1999, the external geopolitical environment was more favorable to Russia than at almost any previous point in the modern era. No neighbor or great power posed a serious threat to Russian security. The collapse of the Soviet Union had not produced territorial disputes between Russia and its neighbors of the sort that would lead to inevitable conflicts. And until the 2014 decision to illegally annex Crimea, Moscow seemed mostly happy with its borders, including with Ukraine. The Cold War was over, and the United States treated Russia as a declining power that no longer constituted a threat to it and its allies. Instead, Washington sought to support Russia in its transition to democracy and a market economy. Foreign investment and technology helped modernize the Russian economy and started to heal the wounds caused by the country’s traumatic adoption of a new economic model in the 1990s. Exports of Russian commodities were enthusiastically purchased by many European nations.

Moscow’s relations with Germany, as well as with other major European countries such as France, Italy, and the United Kingdom, were at a historic peak. In eastern Europe, there was a Soviet legacy of economic ties and personal connections between Moscow and such countries as Poland and the Czech Republic, as well as the newly independent Baltic states. Consecutive waves of NATO and EU enlargement in the 1990s and 2000s made Russia’s neighbors to its west more prosperous and secure, and thus far less fearful of potential Russian revanchism, and opened the way for a dynamic of pragmatic and mutually beneficial engagement, which persisted for much of the 2000s. During these years, Russia and the EU discussed strengthening trade, as well as economic and energy ties. Although the EU did not invite Russia to join the union, it did offer to harmonize trade regulations and remove many of the barriers that limited ties between Moscow and Brussels.

As for its relations with the East, Russia managed to resolve a decades-old territorial dispute with China in 2005, finally putting the relationship with the new superpower on a predictable and productive footing. By then, China was the world’s largest importer of hydrocarbons, providing Russia with a new, enormous, and still expanding market. Meanwhile, with an eye on their own energy security, Japan and South Korea were also interested in helping bring Russia’s vast hydrocarbon resources in Siberia to the market. In turn, by building ties to these two technologically advanced Asian democracies, as well as to China, Russia had an opportunity to tap into the rapidly modernizing potential of the Asia-Pacific region. For the first time in its history, Moscow was able to sell its commodities to both Europe and Asia, diversifying its trade relationships and cultivating new markets as it accessed money and technology from both the West and the East.

Finally, Russia maintained Soviet-era connections to many developing countries in the diverse global South. These ties enabled Russia to keep afloat its Soviet-era industries, particularly its defense sector and civilian nuclear power, by turning contracts with countries like India and Vietnam into sources of revenue that supported domestic manufacturing.

A DARK AND UNNECESSARY TURN
Against this uniquely favorable backdrop, Russia had a chance to pursue an entirely different foreign policy from the one on which it ultimately embarked. For the first time in its history, Moscow didn’t need to spend the bulk of its precious resources on defending itself against external threats or making a bid for global supremacy. With the end of the Cold War, Russia seemed to be out of the game of seeking global dominance once and for all. It could have focused its foreign policy on one goal: maximizing the prosperity of the Russian people through economic growth while guaranteeing their security at comparatively minimal cost. Given its favorable economic and security relationships, Russia could have evolved into a nation with an economy similar to Canada’s, with a permanent seat on the UN Security Council, a large stockpile of nuclear weapons, and geopolitical neutrality. In short, Russia had the foundations it needed to become a prosperous, confident, secure, and trustworthy major twenty-first century power—a country that could help tackle some of the world’s pressing problems.

Such benevolent geopolitical egoism, grounded in neutrality, was more pragmatic and realistic than the obvious alternatives. After all, the dreams held by some Russian reformers in the 1990s and early 2000s of integrating Russia into European and transatlantic alliances such as the EU and NATO were futile. Russia was too large to be absorbed into the EU easily: it would have upset the union’s precarious internal political balance. Russia was an even more unlikely candidate for NATO, a military alliance that was dominated by Washington and subordinated to America’s foreign policy agenda—which even then did not necessarily coincide with Moscow’s. In any case, unlike most European countries, Russia did not need the United States’ guarantees to feel secure. Yet by the same token, the alliance’s expansion to Russia’s doorstep did not present a credible threat to Russian security, given Moscow’s vast nuclear arsenal and substantial conventional forces. Remaining outside the EU and NATO was no hindrance to building a market economy, achieving economic prosperity, and building a political system that would protect human rights—if Russia’s elites and population had wanted such a system. In the early years of this century, the Russian leadership held all the cards for success.

Had Russia embarked on a path of growing ties to East and West, it would have had many chances to strengthen its position in the world. Instead of attacking the United States for its lack of public introspection over the Iraq war, the Russian government could have left critical commentary to experts and pundits. Furthermore, Moscow’s various calls for respect of the UN Charter would have been taken more seriously had Russia itself not unilaterally recognized the breakaway Georgian regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia in 2008, or annexed Crimea and instigated a war in Ukraine’s Donbas region in 2014. Instead, Russia could have done some introspection of its own and found ways to start healing its neighbors’ historical wounds. This could have been done by focusing on the fact that Russians themselves had made a decisive contribution to ending the Soviet regime, by admitting a degree of responsibility, as a successor state, for imperial and Soviet misdeeds, by opening up the archives, and by discussing the darker pages of history, including the Ukrainian famine of 1932–33 and the Soviets’ 1939 nonaggression pact with Nazi Germany.

Moreover, a Russia that remained friendly to both China and the United States–led West could have remained flexible and pragmatic when deciding how to respond to geoeconomic initiatives such as the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership in 2016, or China’s Belt and Road Initiative in the 2010s. The Russian government could also have worked with both Chinese and Western global vendors on cutting-edge technologies like 5G, at the same time as trying to enhance domestic production and play a bigger role in the international supply chain. With its permanent seat on the UN Security Council, vast carbon-dioxide-absorbing forests, and natural resources to produce clean fuels like hydrogen, Russia could have begun to play a leading role in the global response to climate change.

THE ROAD TO UKRAINE
So why didn’t Russia choose this path? Although Putin’s foreign policy in his first term was largely pragmatic and fit broadly into this framework, after 2003 the Kremlin’s course became increasingly focused on revanchism and animosity toward the United States. Moscow’s reset with Washington during the presidency of Dmitry Medvedev from 2009 to 2011 was a brief bright spot, in which the United States and Russia managed to find common ground on a variety of issues—from arms control and Iran’s nuclear program to Moscow’s accession to the World Trade Organization and the forging of a new technology partnership. But this rapprochement quickly ended with Putin’s return to the presidency in 2012. Feeling betrayed by Western intervention in Libya and support for the Arab Spring, Putin became increasingly fixated on alleged U.S. efforts to promote regime change in Russia—an obsession that was intensified by waves of street protests in Moscow in late 2011 after a rigged parliamentary election. His overreaction to the Maidan protests of 2014 led to Moscow’s decision to annex Crimea and fuel a brutal war in the Donbas. In the years after 2014, Russia’s relations with the West were on a downward spiral, although even then there still was an opportunity for Russia to pull back and rebuild its relations with the West. Despite significant sanctions, Moscow still had significant energy ties to Europe, and it continued to play a constructive role in nuclear diplomacy with Iran. But once again, Putin chose a darker path, deciding on the full-blown invasion of Ukraine in February 2022.

The main reason for Russia’s missed opportunities lies in the choices that Putin and the country’s elites have made over the past two decades, and the direct connection of these choices to Russia’s domestic politics. Concerns about U.S. efforts to impose democracy via “color revolutions” in Georgia and Ukraine fed into Putin’s growing suspicions and hostility toward the West. The decision to center Russia’s prosperity on the state-controlled extraction sector instead of building a diversified economy anchored in the rule of law was also a fateful choice that set Russia on its current course. Over the past decade, Putin and his inner circle gradually suppressed the discussions that had been taking place in society and among the elite about a new, more open Russian state and replaced them with propaganda and imperial nostalgia, which fell on fertile ground following the trauma of the Soviet collapse.

In seeking to define itself as a great power in the twenty-first century, Russia has adopted a contemporary version of the Soviet Union’s Cold War standoff with the United States: only by controlling more territory, confronting the West, and opposing Western security alliances, Moscow has decided, can it assert its power in the world. The contrast with what might have been is hard to overstate. Instead of invading Ukraine, the Russian government could have offered a vision of a secure country with a high degree of strategic autonomy and inclusive economic growth, resulting in Norwegian-level wealth, Japanese-level life expectancy, and science that, among other things, would enable it to be a leading power in addressing climate change and pursuing the next frontiers in space exploration. But such a vision, in addition to being utterly new to Russian strategic culture, would also have required robust state institutions and effective checks and balances, both of which have long been anathema to Putin and his entourage.

Putin’s obsession with remaking Russia into a nineteenth-century-style great power and his alarmist view of NATO expansion became the building blocks of his quest for dominance of former Soviet lands, starting with Ukraine, one of the largest and most influential of the Soviet republics outside Russia. Apart from Putin’s view that Russians, Ukrainians, and Belarusians are “one people,” as he famously claimed in his 2021 article on the historical unity of Russians and Ukrainians, he was driven by the belief—widely shared among Russia’s hard-liners—that without control over Ukraine, Russia would never be a great power. Yet Moscow’s desire to exercise political, economic, and cultural dominance over Kyiv was doomed to failure from the start.

Poland’s success after joining NATO and the EU provided a template for many Ukrainian liberals.
First, the Ukrainian elite always wanted to maintain distance from Russia, rather than be integrated into a Russian-led order. Ukraine’s oligarchs knew all too well that, although their Russian peers might be wealthier in absolute terms, a phone call from the Kremlin could lose them their fortunes—unlike in Ukraine, where coalitions of powerful players were constantly reassembling precisely to prevent the emergence of someone like Putin. Even Ukraine’s supposedly pro-Russian politicians simply used help from Moscow and pro-Russian sentiment in some Ukrainian regions as a resource in domestic power struggles, as President Viktor Yanukovych did before being ousted by the Maidan protests.

Meanwhile, to the west of Ukraine was Poland, a country that provided a role model for Ukraine’s educated classes. Poland’s success after joining NATO in 1999 and the EU in 2004 provided a template for many Ukrainian liberals. Finally, and most important, by the start of 2022, it had been more than 30 years since Ukraine’s independence, and the process of national identity building had advanced significantly. Notwithstanding the divisions between various regions and population groups, Ukraine had already defined itself largely as one nation in 2014—and every step the Kremlin made to disrupt the country in the years that followed only made that identity stronger, and more anti-Russian, culminating in nationwide resistance following the invasion in 2022. That resistance was predicted by Putin’s intelligence services but never taken seriously by the isolated Russian leader, who had become a hostage of his own ideas and led his own country into disaster.

Russia’s window of opportunity to redefine itself in the world order closed when the first Russian bombs and missiles hit Ukraine. It is impossible to tell how this ugly war will end, but one thing is clear: those missed chances will never return. Even if Ukraine can attain a full-scale victory, as defined by Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, it won’t necessarily result in the democratization of Russia. Given that Putin may order the use of nuclear weapons if he believes that the survival of his regime is threatened, the possibility of a full Ukrainian victory seems slim as long as he remains in charge, which might be for quite some time. Meanwhile, Russia will gradually drift toward an economic and political model resembling Iran’s—and will become increasingly dependent on China. The greater tribulation for Russia may be that such an Iranian-style outcome could be quite durable, and every year that it lasts will further diminish the chances that Russia will resolve the conflict with Ukraine, repent for harm done, restore ties with the outside world, and bring balance and pragmatism to its foreign policy.
...& a dark curtain descends over eastern Europe.
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old salt
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by old salt »

The tactically stupid & stubborn decision to defend Bakhmut at all costs.
Leaks to the NYT is how Biden tells Zelensky what he doesn't want to hear.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/16/worl ... khmut.html

Ukraine Burns Through Ammunition in Bakhmut, Putting Future Fights at Risk
The military is using thousands of artillery shells a day as it tries to hold the eastern city, which could jeopardize a planned springtime campaign.


by Thomas Gibbons-Neff, Lara Jakes and Eric Schmitt, March 16, 2023

The Ukrainian military is firing thousands of artillery shells a day as it tries to hold the eastern city of Bakhmut, a pace that American and European officials say is unsustainable and could jeopardize a planned springtime campaign that they hope will prove decisive.

The bombardment has been so intense that the Pentagon raised concerns with Kyiv recently after several days of nonstop artillery firing, two U.S. officials said, highlighting the tension between Ukraine’s decision to defend Bakhmut at all costs and its hopes for retaking territory in the spring. One of those officials said the Americans warned Ukraine against wasting ammunition at a key time.

With so much riding on a Ukrainian counteroffensive, the United States and Britain are preparing to ship thousands of NATO and Soviet-type artillery rounds and rockets to help shore up supplies for a coming Ukrainian offensive.

But a senior American defense official described that as a “last-ditch effort” because Ukraine’s allies do not have enough ammunition to keep up with Ukraine’s pace and their stocks are critically low. Western manufacturers are ramping up production, but it will take many months for new supplies to begin meeting demand.

This has put Kyiv in an increasingly perilous position: Its troops are likely to have one meaningful opportunity this year to go on the offensive, push back Russian forces and retake land that was occupied after the invasion began last year. And they will probably have do it while contending with persistent ammunition shortages.

Adding to the uncertainty, Ukrainian casualties have been so severe that commanders will have to decide whether to send units to defend Bakhmut or use them in a spring offensive, several of the officials said. Many of the officials spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the matter publicly.

On Thursday Poland said it would send four Soviet-designed MIG warplanes to Ukraine, in what would be the first delivery of fighter jets by a NATO country and a sign that Western allies are committed to finding ways to enhance Ukraine’s chances.

But artillery has become the defining weapon of the war in Ukraine, including howitzers and mortars. Both sides have powerful antiaircraft systems, so the fighting is being waged largely on the ground. As the year-old war continues, a major factor in who perseveres is which side has enough ammunition and troops.

More than 200,000 Russians are estimated to have been wounded or killed since the start of the war. The Ukrainian figure is more than 100,000. Russia can conscript forces from its population, which is around three times the size of Ukraine’s, but both sides are contending with ammunition shortages. Russia’s formations are firing more ammunition than Ukraine’s.

“We need shells for mortars,” a Ukrainian soldier fighting in Bakhmut said in recent days. He said his battalion had not been resupplied. A Ukrainian tank commander, whose T-80 tank has been used in the city’s defense, said he had barely any tank ammunition left.

Another commander in a brigade that has been instrumental in holding Bakhmut posted on Facebook on Tuesday that there was a “catastrophic shortage of shells.” He described an incident in which his unit disabled an advanced Russian T-90 tank but was prohibited from firing artillery to finish it off because “it’s too expensive.”

The Pentagon estimated that Ukraine was firing several thousand artillery shells a day across the 600-mile front line, which includes Bakhmut, a city that is almost surrounded by Russian troops. Moscow’s forces control roughly half the city and are encroaching on the supply lines the Ukrainians need to defend the rest.

The United States hopes to produce 90,000 artillery shells per month, but that is likely to take two years. The European Union is pooling resources to manufacture and buy about a million shells. That, too, will take time. And a secret British task force is leading an effort to find and buy Soviet-style ammunition, which Ukraine primarily relies on, from around the world.

Ukraine has roughly 350 Western-supplied howitzers and, even with battlefield losses and mechanical failures, significantly more Soviet-era artillery pieces.
“We have to support them more, to provide more weapons,” Lithuania’s vice foreign minister, Egidijus Meilunas, said in an interview on Wednesday. He cast doubt on the effectiveness of aging Soviet-era weapons and said, “The best solution would be to find possibilities to increase production in NATO member states.”

That is not easy, even for some of the most advanced militaries in the world. The United States and its allies did not stockpile weaponry in anticipation of supplying an artillery war. Hundreds of new tanks and armored vehicles that are being sent to Ukraine will certainly aid its advance, but without enough artillery support, their effect will be limited.

For now, the Biden administration remains confident that Bakhmut will not sap Ukraine’s ammunition and troops so much that it dooms a springtime counteroffensive. But the longer the battle rages, the more likely that is to change.

“The Ukrainians are taking casualties. I do not mean to underestimate that,” John F. Kirby, the White House National Security Council spokesman, said on Tuesday. “But they are not taking casualties on the size and scale that the Russians are.”

But numbers alone do not tell the story of Bakhmut, the site of one of the war’s bloodiest battles. The Kremlin-backed Wagner paramilitary group is using units of former prisoners to break through Ukrainian lines. That means battle-hardened troops from Ukraine are dying as they defend the city against less trained Russian foot soldiers.

Bakhmut is a small city, but it provides road access farther east and has also become symbolically important for both sides. “There is no part of Ukraine about which one can say that it can be abandoned,” President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine said this month. His office announced plans this week to further bolster the city’s defenses.

The Biden administration has not put a timeline on the battle there, saying that only Ukraine could make a decision about whether to pull back or keep fighting.

Camille Grand, a defense expert at the European Council on Foreign Relations, who until last fall was NATO’s assistant secretary general for defense investment, said it was both politically important and militarily necessary for Ukraine to show that it would defend its territory. But, he said, “they need to demonstrate that it was worthwhile.”

That is not to say there are no tactical reasons for continuing the protracted slog in Bakhmut, he said. It could drain Russia of resources and prevent its troops from heading farther west, where it could conceivably win another breakthrough for Moscow.

“That would be the logic of expending so much blood and ammo on Bakhmut,” Mr. Grand said. “The alternative is that they got dragged into a situation that, in the long term, plays in Russia’s favor and now it’s difficult to get out of it.”

He added: “Is it correct to assess that the Ukrainians are tapping into their reserves, putting them in a more difficult position to do this open artillery barrage that would be needed to start an offensive against fortified Russian lines elsewhere?

“That’s the big question now.”
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by old salt »

Now we're drawing down our pre-positioned stocks of US spec munitions.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-reache ... counts-wsj

U.S. Reaches Deep Into Its Global Ammunition Stockpiles to Help Ukraine
As Kyiv prepares for spring offensive, the Pentagon is seeking more artillery from countries with large inventories but is greeted with reluctance

By Gordon Lubold, Updated March 16, 2023 9:11 am ET

Ukraine’s insatiable demand for artillery has for months outpaced Western forecasts, setting off a global hunt for more ammunition and forcing the U.S. to raid its stocks abroad to help Kyiv prepare for its counteroffensive later in the spring.

With some U.S. allies unwilling or unable to supply enough ammunition for Ukraine, the U.S. military is pulling from its munition supplies in a number of locations, including in Israel, South Korea, Germany and Kuwait. These sites, known as prepositioned stocks, are where the U.S. stores everything from trucks to bandages to support American forces around the world.

The first drawdown of munitions from these sites was late last year, U.S. and congressional officials said.

The pressure on the U.S. to take more ammunition from its overseas stocks comes as some of Washington’s allies with the biggest stores of artillery rounds have shied away from supplying Ukraine for fear of being seen by Russia as a party to the fight in Ukraine.

Russia has repeatedly warned countries not to supply arms to Ukraine. In January, Russian State Duma Speaker Vyacheslav Volodin said that supplying weapons to Kyiv “would lead to a global disaster,” and alluded to Moscow’s potential retaliation.

The U.S. has provided Kyiv with about 160 howitzers, which use 155-millimeter artillery ammunition. The howitzer artillery round—a roughly 2-foot cylinder weighing about 100 pounds—has been critical for Ukraine in pushing back Russian forces.

The U.S. has sent Ukraine more than one million rounds of 155mm ammunition, and allies have contributed more on top of that.

The conflict has largely been an artillery war consuming large amounts of ammunition at a rate that has surprised even the most seasoned gunner. Ukrainian troops are using more than 90,000 rounds a month of 155mm ammunition, Defense Department officials say.

The U.S. is now scrambling to ensure Ukraine has enough in stock for the next phase of the war, since artillery rounds will help Kyiv’s forces take back territory from Russia in what many see as a make-or-break moment in the conflict.

“If we don’t supply them with enough artillery, this whole thing is an intellectual exercise,” Michael Kofman, director of Russia Studies at CNA, said of the spring offensive.

To date, much of the ammunition has come from U.S. military stocks, pushing inventories to levels that were too low, according to some military planners.

The Pentagon declined to comment on the specifics of stockpiles it has drawn from to supply Ukraine.

“The Department has stocks that are located all around the world and we do not withdraw them without the support and consultation from our allies and partners,” Sabrina Singh, deputy press secretary, said in a statement.

U.S. defense contractors’ inability to quickly replenish weaponry such as missiles and munitions for Ukraine has led Pentagon officials to argue that industry consolidation has gone too far and raised questions about how prepared America is for conflict. Illustration: Adele Morgan
The U.S. also has sought to increase domestic production, but ramping up that effort is a monthslong process as factory lines have to be opened and prepared, and in some cases workers hired. Before the war started, the U.S. could produce roughly 13,000 rounds a month of 155mm ammunition, according to the U.S. Army.

That monthly figure has jumped to about 20,000 rounds this year, and the U.S. hopes to increase it to 50,000 rounds by next year.

Apart from its own production and stockpiles, the U.S. is seeking more artillery rounds for Ukraine from countries that possess large stockpiles, or are capable of producing large volumes of the ammunition.

But in some cases, the responses have been lukewarm. The U.S. has attempted to persuade South Korea, which sits atop a large supply of artillery, to supply Ukraine.

But South Korea, which has tried to remain neutral in the conflict between Ukraine and Russia, has been reluctant, providing only about 200,000 rounds, or about two months worth of ammunition based on Ukraine’s consumption rate, according to U.S. and other officials.

The negotiations with Seoul had been ongoing for months, officials said. During initial talks, South Korea said it didn’t want its ammunition to show up on the battlefield in Europe but would consider selling its artillery to the U.S. if Washington could guarantee it would only go to replenish American stocks.

To avoid the appearance that Seoul was supplying Ukraine, the U.S. arranged last summer for South Korea to sell 155mm ammunition to the Czech Republic’s defense ministry, according to a European parliamentarian who has knowledge of the discussions.

The South Korean Embassy in Washington, D.C., didn’t comment on any of the ammunition negotiations. The government in Seoul has previously denied that it has provided any ammunition to Ukraine.
“There is no change in the ROK government position that it does not support lethal weapons to Ukraine,” said Lee Chang Woo, the first secretary of the embassy. “The ROK government is actively seeking humanitarian assistance for Ukraine, including its reconstruction.”
When that deal collapsed, the U.S. agreed to purchase a batch of 200,000 rounds from South Korean defense manufacturer Poongsan, also on the condition that they would be used to replenish U.S. domestic stocks and not be shipped to Ukraine, according to the parliamentarian.
A larger deal was nearly consummated in November before South Korea froze it, the European parliamentarian said.

India, which also has deep stocks of artillery, has been similarly resistant, U.S. officials said.
A spokesman for the Indian Ministry of Defense declined to comment, while a spokesman for the prime minister’s office didn’t respond to a request seeking comment.

During a trip to the Middle East last week, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin asked Egypt to provide more of its 155mm rounds and Soviet-era equipment but didn’t secure a commitment, U.S. officials said.
Mr. Austin has discussed Ukraine’s needs with every top leader he meets, including in the Middle East recently, a senior defense official said in a statement.
There was no comment from the Egyptian Embassy in Washington.

Countries that use 155mm ammunition include nearly all members of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, U.S. allies in the Indo-Pacific, most Middle Eastern countries and many countries in South and Southeast Asia, and in Africa, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute. But many of those countries either don’t have enough artillery to sell abroad or don’t want to be part of the conflict, officials said.

But in the current scramble for artillery, it remains unclear what stocks countries have, said Pieter Wezeman, a senior researcher at the institute in Stockholm. “Information about ammunition stocks is generally kept confidential,” he said.

“In the significant discussions about ammunition stocks in Europe and how much could be given to Ukraine, I have not yet seen a country that has given even ballpark figures about their actual stocks,” he added.
Last edited by old salt on Fri Mar 17, 2023 2:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by PizzaSnake »

old salt wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:38 am The tactically stupid & stubborn decision to defend Bakhmut at all costs.
Leaks to the NYT is how Biden tells Zelensky what he doesn't want to hear.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/16/worl ... khmut.html

Ukraine Burns Through Ammunition in Bakhmut, Putting Future Fights at Risk
The military is using thousands of artillery shells a day as it tries to hold the eastern city, which could jeopardize a planned springtime campaign.


by Thomas Gibbons-Neff, Lara Jakes and Eric Schmitt, March 16, 2023

The Ukrainian military is firing thousands of artillery shells a day as it tries to hold the eastern city of Bakhmut, a pace that American and European officials say is unsustainable and could jeopardize a planned springtime campaign that they hope will prove decisive.

The bombardment has been so intense that the Pentagon raised concerns with Kyiv recently after several days of nonstop artillery firing, two U.S. officials said, highlighting the tension between Ukraine’s decision to defend Bakhmut at all costs and its hopes for retaking territory in the spring. One of those officials said the Americans warned Ukraine against wasting ammunition at a key time.

With so much riding on a Ukrainian counteroffensive, the United States and Britain are preparing to ship thousands of NATO and Soviet-type artillery rounds and rockets to help shore up supplies for a coming Ukrainian offensive.

But a senior American defense official described that as a “last-ditch effort” because Ukraine’s allies do not have enough ammunition to keep up with Ukraine’s pace and their stocks are critically low. Western manufacturers are ramping up production, but it will take many months for new supplies to begin meeting demand.

This has put Kyiv in an increasingly perilous position: Its troops are likely to have one meaningful opportunity this year to go on the offensive, push back Russian forces and retake land that was occupied after the invasion began last year. And they will probably have do it while contending with persistent ammunition shortages.

Adding to the uncertainty, Ukrainian casualties have been so severe that commanders will have to decide whether to send units to defend Bakhmut or use them in a spring offensive, several of the officials said. Many of the officials spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the matter publicly.

On Thursday Poland said it would send four Soviet-designed MIG warplanes to Ukraine, in what would be the first delivery of fighter jets by a NATO country and a sign that Western allies are committed to finding ways to enhance Ukraine’s chances.

But artillery has become the defining weapon of the war in Ukraine, including howitzers and mortars. Both sides have powerful antiaircraft systems, so the fighting is being waged largely on the ground. As the year-old war continues, a major factor in who perseveres is which side has enough ammunition and troops.

More than 200,000 Russians are estimated to have been wounded or killed since the start of the war. The Ukrainian figure is more than 100,000. Russia can conscript forces from its population, which is around three times the size of Ukraine’s, but both sides are contending with ammunition shortages. Russia’s formations are firing more ammunition than Ukraine’s.

“We need shells for mortars,” a Ukrainian soldier fighting in Bakhmut said in recent days. He said his battalion had not been resupplied. A Ukrainian tank commander, whose T-80 tank has been used in the city’s defense, said he had barely any tank ammunition left.

Another commander in a brigade that has been instrumental in holding Bakhmut posted on Facebook on Tuesday that there was a “catastrophic shortage of shells.” He described an incident in which his unit disabled an advanced Russian T-90 tank but was prohibited from firing artillery to finish it off because “it’s too expensive.”

The Pentagon estimated that Ukraine was firing several thousand artillery shells a day across the 600-mile front line, which includes Bakhmut, a city that is almost surrounded by Russian troops. Moscow’s forces control roughly half the city and are encroaching on the supply lines the Ukrainians need to defend the rest.

The United States hopes to produce 90,000 artillery shells per month, but that is likely to take two years. The European Union is pooling resources to manufacture and buy about a million shells. That, too, will take time. And a secret British task force is leading an effort to find and buy Soviet-style ammunition, which Ukraine primarily relies on, from around the world.

Ukraine has roughly 350 Western-supplied howitzers and, even with battlefield losses and mechanical failures, significantly more Soviet-era artillery pieces.
“We have to support them more, to provide more weapons,” Lithuania’s vice foreign minister, Egidijus Meilunas, said in an interview on Wednesday. He cast doubt on the effectiveness of aging Soviet-era weapons and said, “The best solution would be to find possibilities to increase production in NATO member states.”

That is not easy, even for some of the most advanced militaries in the world. The United States and its allies did not stockpile weaponry in anticipation of supplying an artillery war. Hundreds of new tanks and armored vehicles that are being sent to Ukraine will certainly aid its advance, but without enough artillery support, their effect will be limited.

For now, the Biden administration remains confident that Bakhmut will not sap Ukraine’s ammunition and troops so much that it dooms a springtime counteroffensive. But the longer the battle rages, the more likely that is to change.

“The Ukrainians are taking casualties. I do not mean to underestimate that,” John F. Kirby, the White House National Security Council spokesman, said on Tuesday. “But they are not taking casualties on the size and scale that the Russians are.”

But numbers alone do not tell the story of Bakhmut, the site of one of the war’s bloodiest battles. The Kremlin-backed Wagner paramilitary group is using units of former prisoners to break through Ukrainian lines. That means battle-hardened troops from Ukraine are dying as they defend the city against less trained Russian foot soldiers.

Bakhmut is a small city, but it provides road access farther east and has also become symbolically important for both sides. “There is no part of Ukraine about which one can say that it can be abandoned,” President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine said this month. His office announced plans this week to further bolster the city’s defenses.

The Biden administration has not put a timeline on the battle there, saying that only Ukraine could make a decision about whether to pull back or keep fighting.

Camille Grand, a defense expert at the European Council on Foreign Relations, who until last fall was NATO’s assistant secretary general for defense investment, said it was both politically important and militarily necessary for Ukraine to show that it would defend its territory. But, he said, “they need to demonstrate that it was worthwhile.”

That is not to say there are no tactical reasons for continuing the protracted slog in Bakhmut, he said. It could drain Russia of resources and prevent its troops from heading farther west, where it could conceivably win another breakthrough for Moscow.

“That would be the logic of expending so much blood and ammo on Bakhmut,” Mr. Grand said. “The alternative is that they got dragged into a situation that, in the long term, plays in Russia’s favor and now it’s difficult to get out of it.”

He added: “Is it correct to assess that the Ukrainians are tapping into their reserves, putting them in a more difficult position to do this open artillery barrage that would be needed to start an offensive against fortified Russian lines elsewhere?

“That’s the big question now.”
Waterloo or Gettysburg?
"There is nothing more difficult and more dangerous to carry through than initiating changes. One makes enemies of those who prospered under the old order, and only lukewarm support from those who would prosper under the new."
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by old salt »

PizzaSnake wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:57 am
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:38 am The tactically stupid & stubborn decision to defend Bakhmut at all costs.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/16/worl ... khmut.html
Ukraine Burns Through Ammunition in Bakhmut, Putting Future Fights at Risk
Waterloo or Gettysburg ?
Neither. The Pig War
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by cradleandshoot »

old salt wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 2:12 am
PizzaSnake wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:57 am
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:38 am The tactically stupid & stubborn decision to defend Bakhmut at all costs.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/16/worl ... khmut.html
Ukraine Burns Through Ammunition in Bakhmut, Putting Future Fights at Risk
Waterloo or Gettysburg ?
Neither. The Pig War
I understand the Ukrainian mentality of not wanting to give the city to the Russians. They have to temper that with the understanding Bakhmut has zero tactical importance in the big scheme of things. By the time the dust settles the Russians will have captured a city reduced almost completely to rubble. A totally useless accomplishment that in the end only succeeds in forcing the Ukrainian military to waste enormous amounts of 155 artillery shells. That will lead to Zelensky coming to Biden pleading for more ammo for his howitzers. The Ukrainian leadership is hard headed and stubborn. They need to understand when to stand and fight and when to draw down and save their limited resources when it makes tactical sense to do so.
We don't make mistakes, we have happy accidents.
Bob Ross:
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by cradleandshoot »

cradleandshoot wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:28 am
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 2:12 am
PizzaSnake wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:57 am
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:38 am The tactically stupid & stubborn decision to defend Bakhmut at all costs.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/16/worl ... khmut.html
Ukraine Burns Through Ammunition in Bakhmut, Putting Future Fights at Risk
Waterloo or Gettysburg ?
Neither. The Pig War
I understand the Ukrainian mentality of not wanting to give the city to the Russians. They have to temper that with the understanding Bakhmut has zero tactical importance in the big scheme of things. By the time the dust settles the Russians will have captured a city reduced almost completely to rubble. A totally useless accomplishment that in the end only succeeds in forcing the Ukrainian military to waste enormous amounts of 155 artillery shells. That will lead to Zelensky coming to Biden pleading for more ammo for his howitzers. The Ukrainian leadership is hard headed and stubborn. They need to understand when to stand and fight and when to draw down and save their limited resources when it makes tactical sense to do so.
The Germans, although they were the aggressors, learned this lesson the hard way at Stalingrad. They wasted a good portion of their limited resources trying to capture a city that had NO tactical importance whatsoever. The Russians made them pay dearly. The roles here reversed. The Russian military is also expending massive amounts of ordnance to capture a city of no tactical importance.
We don't make mistakes, we have happy accidents.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by old salt »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 10:40 am
old salt wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:37 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:20 am
old salt wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 1:10 am ...& still not a Freudian slip. How many years was the now Russian occupied area--Russian territory, as compared to part of an independent Ukraine ? How long was it referred to as part of The Ukraine ?

https://vividmaps.com/old-maps-of-russia/
During the time of Catherine the Great (1729-1796), Russia managed to conquer the lands of the Ottoman Empire and the Crimean Khanate. New cities were established on conquered southern lands: Sevastopol, Odesa, Kherson, Luhansk, Mykolaiv, Yekaterinoslav (now Dnipro), Mariupol, Aleksandrov, Pyatigorsk, Krasnodar.
Here's a different perspective: Ukraine was never Russia.

Ukraine was occupied and subjugated by force.

Ukraine and its people were never treated as equal and equivalent to Russia, rather they were treated effectively as a 'slave' state to be exploited. For instance, Stalin's treatment, Holodomor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

Once relieved of the subjugation by the fall of the Soviet Empire, Ukraine chose to be an independent, sovereign state and the Russian Federation recognized that sovereignty, as did the rest of the world.

Russia is seeking to re-subjugate Ukraine and the Ukrainians, committing war crime atrocities in that effort.
That's revisionist history. Ukrainians were founding members of Russia, the Russian Empire & the USSR. Russia originated with the Kievan Rus who then merged with the Muscovites. The capital & court moved to Moscow. That perspective is like saying Texans aren't Americans. Khrushcev & Brezhnev were Ukrainians. They were treated pretty well.
:lol: Talk about “revisionist”!

Your own link claims Russia took these territories by force.

Ask the Ukrainians about their history.

No comment about Holomodor?
Holomodor has nothing to do with national borders. It was an internal power move by Stalin.
Ukrainians were always integral parts of Russian elite & leadership.
Most boundaries were drawn by force (conquest or war), marriage, or purchase.
Belarusians, Ukrainians, Muscovites (& Cossacks) were formative members of the Russian nation.
They were known as the White Rus, Little Rus & Great Rus.
There were also the Black Rus & Red Rus.
Russia was a diverse nation before it was dismembered.
Belarus & Ukraine were part of the core.
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MiGs Pledged to Ukraine

Post by DocBarrister »

Slovakia and Poland have now pledged 17 MiGs to Ukraine. I doubt these pledges were made without at least some informal assurances that the United States would replace these with more modern fighter jets.

The government of Slovakia said on Friday that it would send 13 Soviet-designed fighter jets to Ukraine, a day after a similar announcement by Poland’s president, marking a possibly significant shift from NATO allies in increasing arms supplies for Kyiv.

Slovakia, which borders both Ukraine and Poland, had said months ago that it was ready to send MIG-29 fighter jets to Ukraine. “Promises must be kept,” Slovakia’s prime minister, Eduard Heger, wrote on Twitter. He did not specify the timing of any delivery.

The news came a day after a surprise announcement by Poland’s president that his country would send four MIG-29 jets to Ukraine within days, a move that appeared intended to open the door to more advanced warplanes from NATO allies. These would be the first warplanes sent to Ukraine by a NATO country since Russia launched its full-scale invasion last year.


https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/17/worl ... mig29.html

Bottom line … the floodgates have been opened for fighter jets.

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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

old salt wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 10:53 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:16 pm
19 passes

https://abcnews.go.com/US/us-military-r ... d=97902649
2 such on the video...the first shows fuel dump, but no damage.
The second shows fuel dump but closer pass and after the interruption of the video (Salty's shudder and vibration), the damaged propeller is clear.

The military say the entire set of maneuvers were dangerous and illegal, the actual contact likely incompetence rather than intentional contact, given risk to their own plane.

Can't be sure, of course, as clearly the effort was to force the drone down with the fuel dumps and the pilot may have been frustrated that fuel dumps were insufficient...but more likely just wanted more fuel to hit the drone harder.
The Americans are lying about it. Trust the Russians.
You can't fix stupid.

The Russians blew up Nordstream.
https://apnews.com/article/us-germany-r ... 9352a28c24
In the immediate aftermath of the explosions, U.S. officials suggested Russia may have been to blame
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by DocBarrister »

cradleandshoot wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:28 am
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 2:12 am
PizzaSnake wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:57 am
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:38 am The tactically stupid & stubborn decision to defend Bakhmut at all costs.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/16/worl ... khmut.html
Ukraine Burns Through Ammunition in Bakhmut, Putting Future Fights at Risk
Waterloo or Gettysburg ?
Neither. The Pig War
I understand the Ukrainian mentality of not wanting to give the city to the Russians. They have to temper that with the understanding Bakhmut has zero tactical importance in the big scheme of things. By the time the dust settles the Russians will have captured a city reduced almost completely to rubble. A totally useless accomplishment that in the end only succeeds in forcing the Ukrainian military to waste enormous amounts of 155 artillery shells. That will lead to Zelensky coming to Biden pleading for more ammo for his howitzers. The Ukrainian leadership is hard headed and stubborn. They need to understand when to stand and fight and when to draw down and save their limited resources when it makes tactical sense to do so.
Ukraine states two tactical goals in Bakhmut: (1) deplete Russia’s best forces (presumably Wagner), and (2) keep Russia’s forces pinned there.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/ukra ... -rcna74618

If Ukraine wants the Russians focused on the East, where will Ukraine conduct its much awaited offensive?

Believe it or not … it may be Crimea.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/02/22/uk ... take-back/

The idea would be for Ukraine to first sever the land bridge between Crimea and other Russian troop positions. Then the second part would be an offensive targeting Crimea itself.

As the thinking goes … retake Crimea, and the entire Russian “special operation” in Ukraine falls apart. It is a strategy (not a short term tactic) with one main objective in mind … avoid a lengthy war of attrition that may ultimately favor Russia.

Russia is apparently preparing for such a scenario, planning for possible evacuations in Crimea and even training schoolchildren to handle assault rifles (which would be a new low for even Russia).

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-prepari ... 8424?amp=1

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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

old salt wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 7:51 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 10:40 am
old salt wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:37 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:20 am
old salt wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 1:10 am ...& still not a Freudian slip. How many years was the now Russian occupied area--Russian territory, as compared to part of an independent Ukraine ? How long was it referred to as part of The Ukraine ?

https://vividmaps.com/old-maps-of-russia/
During the time of Catherine the Great (1729-1796), Russia managed to conquer the lands of the Ottoman Empire and the Crimean Khanate. New cities were established on conquered southern lands: Sevastopol, Odesa, Kherson, Luhansk, Mykolaiv, Yekaterinoslav (now Dnipro), Mariupol, Aleksandrov, Pyatigorsk, Krasnodar.
Here's a different perspective: Ukraine was never Russia.

Ukraine was occupied and subjugated by force.

Ukraine and its people were never treated as equal and equivalent to Russia, rather they were treated effectively as a 'slave' state to be exploited. For instance, Stalin's treatment, Holodomor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

Once relieved of the subjugation by the fall of the Soviet Empire, Ukraine chose to be an independent, sovereign state and the Russian Federation recognized that sovereignty, as did the rest of the world.

Russia is seeking to re-subjugate Ukraine and the Ukrainians, committing war crime atrocities in that effort.
That's revisionist history. Ukrainians were founding members of Russia, the Russian Empire & the USSR. Russia originated with the Kievan Rus who then merged with the Muscovites. The capital & court moved to Moscow. That perspective is like saying Texans aren't Americans. Khrushcev & Brezhnev were Ukrainians. They were treated pretty well.
:lol: Talk about “revisionist”!

Your own link claims Russia took these territories by force.

Ask the Ukrainians about their history.

No comment about Holomodor?
Holomodor has nothing to do with national borders. It was an internal power move by Stalin.
Ukrainians were always integral parts of Russian elite & leadership.
Most boundaries were drawn by force (conquest or war), marriage, or purchase.
Belarusians, Ukrainians, Muscovites (& Cossacks) were formative members of the Russian nation.
They were known as the White Rus, Little Rus & Great Rus.
There were also the Black Rus & Red Rus.
Russia was a diverse nation before it was dismembered.
Belarus & Ukraine were part of the core.
Again, that's the Russian perspective, not of the peoples of those former conquered areas.

You're speaking of the Russian Empire, and Soviet Union, not Russia.

And Holomodor was effectively genocide...committed by the Russian power elite (Stalin) against the Ukrainians.

No surprise that they want independence from such.
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International Criminal Court Issues Arrest Warrant for Putin

Post by DocBarrister »

Human Rights Watch called the International Criminal Court's decision to issue an arrest warrant for Russian President Vladimir Putin a “wakeup call to others committing abuses or covering them up” in a statement on Friday.

“This is a big day for the many victims of crimes committed by Russian forces in Ukraine since 2014. With these arrest warrants, the ICC has made Putin a wanted man and taken its first step to end the impunity that has emboldened perpetrators in Russia’s war against Ukraine for far too long,” said Balkees Jarrah, associate international justice director at Human Rights Watch.

The ICC issued the arrest warrants for Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova, the official at the center of the alleged scheme to forcibly deport thousands of Ukrainian children to Russia.

“The warrants send a clear message that giving orders to commit or tolerating serious crimes against civilians may lead to a prison cell in The Hague. The court’s warrants are a wakeup call to others committing abuses or covering them up that their day in court may be coming, regardless of their rank or position,” Jarrah said.

The Russian government does not recognize the jurisdiction of the ICC in The Hague, Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov said Tuesday, according to state news agency TASS.

Russia withdrew from the ICC treaty under a directive signed by Putin in 2016.


https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ru ... index.html

DocBarrister
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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old salt wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:56 am Now we're drawing down our pre-positioned stocks of US spec munitions.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-reache ... counts-wsj

U.S. Reaches Deep Into Its Global Ammunition Stockpiles to Help Ukraine
As Kyiv prepares for spring offensive, the Pentagon is seeking more artillery from countries with large inventories but is greeted with reluctance

By Gordon Lubold, Updated March 16, 2023 9:11 am ET

Ukraine’s insatiable demand for artillery has for months outpaced Western forecasts, setting off a global hunt for more ammunition and forcing the U.S. to raid its stocks abroad to help Kyiv prepare for its counteroffensive later in the spring.

With some U.S. allies unwilling or unable to supply enough ammunition for Ukraine, the U.S. military is pulling from its munition supplies in a number of locations, including in Israel, South Korea, Germany and Kuwait. These sites, known as prepositioned stocks, are where the U.S. stores everything from trucks to bandages to support American forces around the world.

The first drawdown of munitions from these sites was late last year, U.S. and congressional officials said.

The pressure on the U.S. to take more ammunition from its overseas stocks comes as some of Washington’s allies with the biggest stores of artillery rounds have shied away from supplying Ukraine for fear of being seen by Russia as a party to the fight in Ukraine.

Russia has repeatedly warned countries not to supply arms to Ukraine. In January, Russian State Duma Speaker Vyacheslav Volodin said that supplying weapons to Kyiv “would lead to a global disaster,” and alluded to Moscow’s potential retaliation.

The U.S. has provided Kyiv with about 160 howitzers, which use 155-millimeter artillery ammunition. The howitzer artillery round—a roughly 2-foot cylinder weighing about 100 pounds—has been critical for Ukraine in pushing back Russian forces.

The U.S. has sent Ukraine more than one million rounds of 155mm ammunition, and allies have contributed more on top of that.

The conflict has largely been an artillery war consuming large amounts of ammunition at a rate that has surprised even the most seasoned gunner. Ukrainian troops are using more than 90,000 rounds a month of 155mm ammunition, Defense Department officials say.

The U.S. is now scrambling to ensure Ukraine has enough in stock for the next phase of the war, since artillery rounds will help Kyiv’s forces take back territory from Russia in what many see as a make-or-break moment in the conflict.

“If we don’t supply them with enough artillery, this whole thing is an intellectual exercise,” Michael Kofman, director of Russia Studies at CNA, said of the spring offensive.

To date, much of the ammunition has come from U.S. military stocks, pushing inventories to levels that were too low, according to some military planners.

The Pentagon declined to comment on the specifics of stockpiles it has drawn from to supply Ukraine.

“The Department has stocks that are located all around the world and we do not withdraw them without the support and consultation from our allies and partners,” Sabrina Singh, deputy press secretary, said in a statement.

U.S. defense contractors’ inability to quickly replenish weaponry such as missiles and munitions for Ukraine has led Pentagon officials to argue that industry consolidation has gone too far and raised questions about how prepared America is for conflict. Illustration: Adele Morgan
The U.S. also has sought to increase domestic production, but ramping up that effort is a monthslong process as factory lines have to be opened and prepared, and in some cases workers hired. Before the war started, the U.S. could produce roughly 13,000 rounds a month of 155mm ammunition, according to the U.S. Army.

That monthly figure has jumped to about 20,000 rounds this year, and the U.S. hopes to increase it to 50,000 rounds by next year.

Apart from its own production and stockpiles, the U.S. is seeking more artillery rounds for Ukraine from countries that possess large stockpiles, or are capable of producing large volumes of the ammunition.

But in some cases, the responses have been lukewarm. The U.S. has attempted to persuade South Korea, which sits atop a large supply of artillery, to supply Ukraine.

But South Korea, which has tried to remain neutral in the conflict between Ukraine and Russia, has been reluctant, providing only about 200,000 rounds, or about two months worth of ammunition based on Ukraine’s consumption rate, according to U.S. and other officials.

The negotiations with Seoul had been ongoing for months, officials said. During initial talks, South Korea said it didn’t want its ammunition to show up on the battlefield in Europe but would consider selling its artillery to the U.S. if Washington could guarantee it would only go to replenish American stocks.

To avoid the appearance that Seoul was supplying Ukraine, the U.S. arranged last summer for South Korea to sell 155mm ammunition to the Czech Republic’s defense ministry, according to a European parliamentarian who has knowledge of the discussions.

The South Korean Embassy in Washington, D.C., didn’t comment on any of the ammunition negotiations. The government in Seoul has previously denied that it has provided any ammunition to Ukraine.
“There is no change in the ROK government position that it does not support lethal weapons to Ukraine,” said Lee Chang Woo, the first secretary of the embassy. “The ROK government is actively seeking humanitarian assistance for Ukraine, including its reconstruction.”
When that deal collapsed, the U.S. agreed to purchase a batch of 200,000 rounds from South Korean defense manufacturer Poongsan, also on the condition that they would be used to replenish U.S. domestic stocks and not be shipped to Ukraine, according to the parliamentarian.
A larger deal was nearly consummated in November before South Korea froze it, the European parliamentarian said.

India, which also has deep stocks of artillery, has been similarly resistant, U.S. officials said.
A spokesman for the Indian Ministry of Defense declined to comment, while a spokesman for the prime minister’s office didn’t respond to a request seeking comment.

During a trip to the Middle East last week, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin asked Egypt to provide more of its 155mm rounds and Soviet-era equipment but didn’t secure a commitment, U.S. officials said.
Mr. Austin has discussed Ukraine’s needs with every top leader he meets, including in the Middle East recently, a senior defense official said in a statement.
There was no comment from the Egyptian Embassy in Washington.

Countries that use 155mm ammunition include nearly all members of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, U.S. allies in the Indo-Pacific, most Middle Eastern countries and many countries in South and Southeast Asia, and in Africa, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute. But many of those countries either don’t have enough artillery to sell abroad or don’t want to be part of the conflict, officials said.

But in the current scramble for artillery, it remains unclear what stocks countries have, said Pieter Wezeman, a senior researcher at the institute in Stockholm. “Information about ammunition stocks is generally kept confidential,” he said.

“In the significant discussions about ammunition stocks in Europe and how much could be given to Ukraine, I have not yet seen a country that has given even ballpark figures about their actual stocks,” he added.
You should re-enlist so that we do it right.
“I wish you would!”
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