All Things Russia & Ukraine

[a fan]

too long & repetitive to merit a response

Okay.

[old salt]

Gotta admit, Salty has often been at least early in spouting Russian propaganda talking points, often in concert with, and sometimes even before, Fox started regurgitating them.

...backhanded compliment, but at least giving credit where credit is due. Guess I should not have taken those Russian & Soviet history courses, then spent my working career trying to figure out how to defeat them in war & chasing them all over the oceans. I suppose that was before I became a collaborator. I don't welcome the prospect of future generations having to do it all over again.
obtw -- did Desantis say anything in his Ukraine statement that I had not posted here ?

Yes, much of what you write is well informed, including a pretty good understanding of what Russia has been telling itself about its history...that they're blind to the perspectives of the peoples they have subjugated is not particularly "Russian" per se, as lots of those in dominant positions around the world have been blind to the perspectives of those who have been subjugated, oppressed, reservationed, redlined...whatever. Pretty human. Wrong, but human.

But where modern Russia under Putin and the right wing hardliners have been particularly gross is their anger at no longer holding this dominance over all those they previously bullied and oppressed.

And that's where you and I have parted, I'm not as willing to simply accept their perspective as valid.

I don't accept their perspective as valid. I realize our inability to alter it. There's only so much we can do to contain it. Our attempts to promote internal change in those nations have not gone well & have generated blow back. Not every battle is worth fighting on idealistic grounds.
Contain & deter when & where possible. Prioritize. We've ensured Ukraine's survival, even if they have to give back some territory to Russia, We now need to help Taiwan survive.

...& still not a Freudian slip. How many years was the now Russian occupied area--Russian territory, as compared to part of an independent Ukraine ? How long was it referred to as part of The Ukraine ?

https://vividmaps.com/old-maps-of-russia/
During the time of Catherine the Great (1729-1796), Russia managed to conquer the lands of the Ottoman Empire and the Crimean Khanate. New cities were established on conquered southern lands: Sevastopol, Odesa, Kherson, Luhansk, Mykolaiv, Yekaterinoslav (now Dnipro), Mariupol, Aleksandrov, Pyatigorsk, Krasnodar.

[SCLaxAttack]

Let's see the drone's video of the "environmentally unsound" intercept.

Given the position of the prop on the Reaper, right behind to the taller V tail, it's difficult to picture a mid-air collision without also striking the tail structure. That could have also brought down the SU-27.

Our US statement indicates that it was still in controlled flight, since a decision was made to ditch it in the sea.
It could have been gliding after engine failure or severe vibrations from an unbalanced, damaged prop.

A more likely tactic to bring down the Reaper was to dump fuel, which would have been ingested into the Reaper's engine intake, causing a compressor stall (possibly explosive), or engine fire & engine failure.

The video, without comment (which in itself is comment):

https://apple.news/AG4RsssIaQ2W7PLRllv3Vxw

[Farfromgeneva]

Let's see the drone's video of the "environmentally unsound" intercept.

Given the position of the prop on the Reaper, right behind to the taller V tail, it's difficult to picture a mid-air collision without also striking the tail structure. That could have also brought down the SU-27.

Our US statement indicates that it was still in controlled flight, since a decision was made to ditch it in the sea.
It could have been gliding after engine failure or severe vibrations from an unbalanced, damaged prop.

A more likely tactic to bring down the Reaper was to dump fuel, which would have been ingested into the Reaper's engine intake, causing a compressor stall (possibly explosive), or engine fire & engine failure.

The video, without comment (which in itself is comment):

https://apple.news/AG4RsssIaQ2W7PLRllv3Vxw

Whattt then we’d be putting words in your mouth!

[MDlaxfan76]

Gotta admit, Salty has often been at least early in spouting Russian propaganda talking points, often in concert with, and sometimes even before, Fox started regurgitating them.

...backhanded compliment, but at least giving credit where credit is due. Guess I should not have taken those Russian & Soviet history courses, then spent my working career trying to figure out how to defeat them in war & chasing them all over the oceans. I suppose that was before I became a collaborator. I don't welcome the prospect of future generations having to do it all over again.
obtw -- did Desantis say anything in his Ukraine statement that I had not posted here ?

Yes, much of what you write is well informed, including a pretty good understanding of what Russia has been telling itself about its history...that they're blind to the perspectives of the peoples they have subjugated is not particularly "Russian" per se, as lots of those in dominant positions around the world have been blind to the perspectives of those who have been subjugated, oppressed, reservationed, redlined...whatever. Pretty human. Wrong, but human.

But where modern Russia under Putin and the right wing hardliners have been particularly gross is their anger at no longer holding this dominance over all those they previously bullied and oppressed.

And that's where you and I have parted, I'm not as willing to simply accept their perspective as valid.

I don't accept their perspective as valid. I realize our inability to alter it. There's only so much we can do to contain it. Our attempts to promote internal change in those nations have not gone well & have generated blow back. Not every battle is worth fighting on idealistic grounds.
Contain & deter when & where possible. Prioritize. We've ensured Ukraine's survival, even if they have to give back some territory to Russia, We now need to help Taiwan survive.

...& still not a Freudian slip. How many years was the now Russian occupied area--Russian territory, as compared to part of an independent Ukraine ? How long was it referred to as part of The Ukraine ?

https://vividmaps.com/old-maps-of-russia/
During the time of Catherine the Great (1729-1796), Russia managed to conquer the lands of the Ottoman Empire and the Crimean Khanate. New cities were established on conquered southern lands: Sevastopol, Odesa, Kherson, Luhansk, Mykolaiv, Yekaterinoslav (now Dnipro), Mariupol, Aleksandrov, Pyatigorsk, Krasnodar.

Here's a different perspective: Ukraine was never Russia.

Ukraine was occupied and subjugated by force.

Ukraine and its people were never treated as equal and equivalent to Russia, rather they were treated effectively as a 'slave' state to be exploited. For instance, Stalin's treatment, Holodomor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

Once relieved of the subjugation by the fall of the Soviet Empire, Ukraine chose to be an independent, sovereign state and the Russian Federation recognized that sovereignty, as did the rest of the world.

Russia is seeking to re-subjugate Ukraine and the Ukrainians, committing war crime atrocities in that effort.

[runrussellrun]

...& still not a Freudian slip. How many years was the now Russian occupied area--Russian territory, as compared to part of an independent Ukraine ? How long was it referred to as part of The Ukraine ?

https://vividmaps.com/old-maps-of-russia/
During the time of Catherine the Great (1729-1796), Russia managed to conquer the lands of the Ottoman Empire and the Crimean Khanate. New cities were established on conquered southern lands: Sevastopol, Odesa, Kherson, Luhansk, Mykolaiv, Yekaterinoslav (now Dnipro), Mariupol, Aleksandrov, Pyatigorsk, Krasnodar.
[/quote]

.....heard a rumour that only IVY Leaugue grads will be drafted for WW3. AOC, snuck it into an amedment. She remembers how THEY tipped.....

otherwize, we remember that MONDALE was 100 percent correct, REAGAN did try to .....medicare. Was that the point

are we really gonna go to war because a "robot" got blew up ?

[old salt]

Gotta admit, Salty has often been at least early in spouting Russian propaganda talking points, often in concert with, and sometimes even before, Fox started regurgitating them.

...backhanded compliment, but at least giving credit where credit is due. Guess I should not have taken those Russian & Soviet history courses, then spent my working career trying to figure out how to defeat them in war & chasing them all over the oceans. I suppose that was before I became a collaborator. I don't welcome the prospect of future generations having to do it all over again.
obtw -- did Desantis say anything in his Ukraine statement that I had not posted here ?

Yes, much of what you write is well informed, including a pretty good understanding of what Russia has been telling itself about its history...that they're blind to the perspectives of the peoples they have subjugated is not particularly "Russian" per se, as lots of those in dominant positions around the world have been blind to the perspectives of those who have been subjugated, oppressed, reservationed, redlined...whatever. Pretty human. Wrong, but human.

But where modern Russia under Putin and the right wing hardliners have been particularly gross is their anger at no longer holding this dominance over all those they previously bullied and oppressed.

And that's where you and I have parted, I'm not as willing to simply accept their perspective as valid.

I don't accept their perspective as valid. I realize our inability to alter it. There's only so much we can do to contain it. Our attempts to promote internal change in those nations have not gone well & have generated blow back. Not every battle is worth fighting on idealistic grounds.
Contain & deter when & where possible. Prioritize. We've ensured Ukraine's survival, even if they have to give back some territory to Russia, We now need to help Taiwan survive.

...& still not a Freudian slip. How many years was the now Russian occupied area--Russian territory, as compared to part of an independent Ukraine ? How long was it referred to as part of The Ukraine ?

https://vividmaps.com/old-maps-of-russia/
During the time of Catherine the Great (1729-1796), Russia managed to conquer the lands of the Ottoman Empire and the Crimean Khanate. New cities were established on conquered southern lands: Sevastopol, Odesa, Kherson, Luhansk, Mykolaiv, Yekaterinoslav (now Dnipro), Mariupol, Aleksandrov, Pyatigorsk, Krasnodar.

Here's a different perspective: Ukraine was never Russia.

Ukraine was occupied and subjugated by force.

Ukraine and its people were never treated as equal and equivalent to Russia, rather they were treated effectively as a 'slave' state to be exploited. For instance, Stalin's treatment, Holodomor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

Once relieved of the subjugation by the fall of the Soviet Empire, Ukraine chose to be an independent, sovereign state and the Russian Federation recognized that sovereignty, as did the rest of the world.

Russia is seeking to re-subjugate Ukraine and the Ukrainians, committing war crime atrocities in that effort.

That's revisionist history. Ukrainians were founding members of Russia, the Russian Empire & the USSR. Russia originated with the Kievan Rus who then merged with the Muscovites. The capital & court moved to Moscow. That perspective is like saying Texans aren't Americans. Khrushcev & Brezhnev were Ukrainians. They were treated pretty well.

[old salt]

Let's see the drone's video of the "environmentally unsound" intercept.

Given the position of the prop on the Reaper, right behind to the taller V tail, it's difficult to picture a mid-air collision without also striking the tail structure. That could have also brought down the SU-27.

Our US statement indicates that it was still in controlled flight, since a decision was made to ditch it in the sea.
It could have been gliding after engine failure or severe vibrations from an unbalanced, damaged prop.

A more likely tactic to bring down the Reaper was to dump fuel, which would have been ingested into the Reaper's engine intake, causing a compressor stall (possibly explosive), or engine fire & engine failure.

The video, without comment (which in itself is comment):

https://apple.news/AG4RsssIaQ2W7PLRllv3Vxw

I don't think the SU-27 struck the prop on that pass. The prop tips were not bent & the picture stayed stable. That showed the fuel dumping & a close pass. There would have been an immediate shutter & vibration with a prop strike. There's a still video image that shows bent prop tips.

[MDlaxfan76]

Gotta admit, Salty has often been at least early in spouting Russian propaganda talking points, often in concert with, and sometimes even before, Fox started regurgitating them.

...backhanded compliment, but at least giving credit where credit is due. Guess I should not have taken those Russian & Soviet history courses, then spent my working career trying to figure out how to defeat them in war & chasing them all over the oceans. I suppose that was before I became a collaborator. I don't welcome the prospect of future generations having to do it all over again.
obtw -- did Desantis say anything in his Ukraine statement that I had not posted here ?

Yes, much of what you write is well informed, including a pretty good understanding of what Russia has been telling itself about its history...that they're blind to the perspectives of the peoples they have subjugated is not particularly "Russian" per se, as lots of those in dominant positions around the world have been blind to the perspectives of those who have been subjugated, oppressed, reservationed, redlined...whatever. Pretty human. Wrong, but human.

But where modern Russia under Putin and the right wing hardliners have been particularly gross is their anger at no longer holding this dominance over all those they previously bullied and oppressed.

And that's where you and I have parted, I'm not as willing to simply accept their perspective as valid.

I don't accept their perspective as valid. I realize our inability to alter it. There's only so much we can do to contain it. Our attempts to promote internal change in those nations have not gone well & have generated blow back. Not every battle is worth fighting on idealistic grounds.
Contain & deter when & where possible. Prioritize. We've ensured Ukraine's survival, even if they have to give back some territory to Russia, We now need to help Taiwan survive.

...& still not a Freudian slip. How many years was the now Russian occupied area--Russian territory, as compared to part of an independent Ukraine ? How long was it referred to as part of The Ukraine ?

https://vividmaps.com/old-maps-of-russia/
During the time of Catherine the Great (1729-1796), Russia managed to conquer the lands of the Ottoman Empire and the Crimean Khanate. New cities were established on conquered southern lands: Sevastopol, Odesa, Kherson, Luhansk, Mykolaiv, Yekaterinoslav (now Dnipro), Mariupol, Aleksandrov, Pyatigorsk, Krasnodar.

Here's a different perspective: Ukraine was never Russia.

Ukraine was occupied and subjugated by force.

Ukraine and its people were never treated as equal and equivalent to Russia, rather they were treated effectively as a 'slave' state to be exploited. For instance, Stalin's treatment, Holodomor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

Once relieved of the subjugation by the fall of the Soviet Empire, Ukraine chose to be an independent, sovereign state and the Russian Federation recognized that sovereignty, as did the rest of the world.

Russia is seeking to re-subjugate Ukraine and the Ukrainians, committing war crime atrocities in that effort.

That's revisionist history. Ukrainians were founding members of Russia, the Russian Empire & the USSR. Russia originated with the Kievan Rus who then merged with the Muscovites. The capital & court moved to Moscow. That perspective is like saying Texans aren't Americans. Khrushcev & Brezhnev were Ukrainians. They were treated pretty well.

Talk about “revisionist”!

Your own link claims Russia took these territories by force.

Ask the Ukrainians about their history.

No comment about Holomodor?

[runrussellrun]

that date, was around 200 years AFTER....the Western Pennisula of Europe....began importing African slaves. ( 1510's-South America )

Spanish American war...believe we have video footage of some "battles"...it was that recent.

You timelining the wars of the 1840's....and the real.....REAL....movement, to take back these lands. From the Halls of Montezuma, to the shores of.... yup.....the Spanish empire has been very, very patient. Unless, of course, you don't think they want the fossil fuel rich lands of the southwest. Oh....and the water too.

French-Vietnamese restaurants are some of the best.......how did THAT mix happen.

geez....

how bout them US funded bio labs in the Ukraine.........which many politicians claimed (taats) to be corrupt.

[PizzaSnake]

Hmm. Bueller?

“As Russia’s ruthless war against Ukraine has faced major setbacks since it began a year ago, the Kremlin has deployed new disinformation themes and tactics to weaken US support for Kyiv with help from conservative media stars and some Republicans in Congress, according to new studies and experts.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... ns-ukraine

[SCLaxAttack]

Let's see the drone's video of the "environmentally unsound" intercept.

Given the position of the prop on the Reaper, right behind to the taller V tail, it's difficult to picture a mid-air collision without also striking the tail structure. That could have also brought down the SU-27.

Our US statement indicates that it was still in controlled flight, since a decision was made to ditch it in the sea.
It could have been gliding after engine failure or severe vibrations from an unbalanced, damaged prop.

A more likely tactic to bring down the Reaper was to dump fuel, which would have been ingested into the Reaper's engine intake, causing a compressor stall (possibly explosive), or engine fire & engine failure.

The video, without comment (which in itself is comment):

https://apple.news/AG4RsssIaQ2W7PLRllv3Vxw

I don't think the SU-27 struck the prop on that pass. The prop tips were not bent & the picture stayed stable. That showed the fuel dumping & a close pass. There would have been an immediate shutter & vibration with a prop strike. There's a still video image that shows bent prop tips.

Maybe you've seen a different video. The video I linked shows two passes, not one. On the first pass that jet gets close and there is slight pixelation of the video. I don't know if there's a correlation of pass-by distance and pixel. On the second pass the video seems to show that jet getting closer than the first (unless the jets were different sizes), there's more pixelation of the video, and the video then shows (the result in the video - not just of a still video image) bent prop tips.

Might a jet flying past electronics at extremely close range possibly cause vibration strong enough to cause pixelation of a digital camera's video?

But you're right, despite there being no video (or at least no published video, Deep State and all that), it remains possible that a jet fuel dump got ingested. Pretty thick fuel to bend that prop though, but as a retired Navy pilot you'd know better than I.

[MDlaxfan76]

19 passes

https://abcnews.go.com/US/us-military-r ... d=97902649

2 such on the video...the first shows fuel dump, but no damage.
The second shows fuel dump but closer pass and after the interruption of the video (Salty's shudder and vibration), the damaged propeller is clear.

The military say the entire set of maneuvers were dangerous and illegal, the actual contact likely incompetence rather than intentional contact, given risk to their own plane.

Can't be sure, of course, as clearly the effort was to force the drone down with the fuel dumps and the pilot may have been frustrated that fuel dumps were insufficient...but more likely just wanted more fuel to hit the drone harder.

[a fan]

Even cutting Russian oil revenue by a third “would be a severe hit to GDP, but it would not bankrupt the state and it would not lead to a crash,” he said. “I think from now on, we are talking about gradual changes to the economy.”

He said the real impact will be long term. The loss of Western technology such as advanced computer chips means an economy permanently stuck in low gear.

Russia may have successfully restarted factories after the Western exodus, “but the business case for producing something sophisticated in Russia is gone, and it’s not coming back,” Kluge said.


https://apnews.com/article/russian-econ ... b58590f7f0

[MDlaxfan76]

Even cutting Russian oil revenue by a third “would be a severe hit to GDP, but it would not bankrupt the state and it would not lead to a crash,” he said. “I think from now on, we are talking about gradual changes to the economy.”

He said the real impact will be long term. The loss of Western technology such as advanced computer chips means an economy permanently stuck in low gear.

Russia may have successfully restarted factories after the Western exodus, “but the business case for producing something sophisticated in Russia is gone, and it’s not coming back,” Kluge said.


https://apnews.com/article/russian-econ ... b58590f7f0

More than a million of the highest educated Russians and their families have left Russia and will not go back...much more important long term than the loss of oil revenue.

[a fan]

Even cutting Russian oil revenue by a third “would be a severe hit to GDP, but it would not bankrupt the state and it would not lead to a crash,” he said. “I think from now on, we are talking about gradual changes to the economy.”

He said the real impact will be long term. The loss of Western technology such as advanced computer chips means an economy permanently stuck in low gear.

Russia may have successfully restarted factories after the Western exodus, “but the business case for producing something sophisticated in Russia is gone, and it’s not coming back,” Kluge said.


https://apnews.com/article/russian-econ ... b58590f7f0

More than a million of the highest educated Russians and their families have left Russia and will not go back...much more important long term than the loss of oil revenue.

It's all about long term.

Putin is a moron. There was NOTHING keeping him from making the US their key trading partner. Nothing. Zippo. Make Moscow a tourist trap. Make it cool for America's 1%ers to fly to their ski resorts. Market to the global 1%ers. Instead? Fake worries about "NATO invasions"...when even a five year old understands that if NATO wanted to do that, it would have done it waaaaay back in the 90's, the instant the Soviets fell apart.

Putin could have made NATO utterly irrelevant via trade.

One man's way of thinking is screwing an entire nation for generations---and screwing his neighbors, too. It's sad to watch.

[Typical Lax Dad]

19 passes

https://abcnews.go.com/US/us-military-r ... d=97902649

2 such on the video...the first shows fuel dump, but no damage.
The second shows fuel dump but closer pass and after the interruption of the video (Salty's shudder and vibration), the damaged propeller is clear.

The military say the entire set of maneuvers were dangerous and illegal, the actual contact likely incompetence rather than intentional contact, given risk to their own plane.

Can't be sure, of course, as clearly the effort was to force the drone down with the fuel dumps and the pilot may have been frustrated that fuel dumps were insufficient...but more likely just wanted more fuel to hit the drone harder.

The Americans are lying about it. Trust the Russians.

[PizzaSnake]

Even cutting Russian oil revenue by a third “would be a severe hit to GDP, but it would not bankrupt the state and it would not lead to a crash,” he said. “I think from now on, we are talking about gradual changes to the economy.”

He said the real impact will be long term. The loss of Western technology such as advanced computer chips means an economy permanently stuck in low gear.

Russia may have successfully restarted factories after the Western exodus, “but the business case for producing something sophisticated in Russia is gone, and it’s not coming back,” Kluge said.


https://apnews.com/article/russian-econ ... b58590f7f0

More than a million of the highest educated Russians and their families have left Russia and will not go back...much more important long term than the loss of oil revenue.

Like when the French drove out the Huguenots —not a good move.

[MDlaxfan76]

Even cutting Russian oil revenue by a third “would be a severe hit to GDP, but it would not bankrupt the state and it would not lead to a crash,” he said. “I think from now on, we are talking about gradual changes to the economy.”

He said the real impact will be long term. The loss of Western technology such as advanced computer chips means an economy permanently stuck in low gear.

Russia may have successfully restarted factories after the Western exodus, “but the business case for producing something sophisticated in Russia is gone, and it’s not coming back,” Kluge said.


https://apnews.com/article/russian-econ ... b58590f7f0

More than a million of the highest educated Russians and their families have left Russia and will not go back...much more important long term than the loss of oil revenue.

It's all about long term.

Putin is a moron. There was NOTHING keeping him from making the US their key trading partner. Nothing. Zippo. Make Moscow a tourist trap. Make it cool for America's 1%ers to fly to their ski resorts. Market to the global 1%ers. Instead? Fake worries about "NATO invasions"...when even a five year old understands that if NATO wanted to do that, it would have done it waaaaay back in the 90's, the instant the Soviets fell apart.

Putin could have made NATO utterly irrelevant via trade.

One man's way of thinking is screwing an entire nation for generations---and screwing his neighbors, too. It's sad to watch.

Agreed; an enormous missed opportunity.

[DocBarrister]

19 passes

https://abcnews.go.com/US/us-military-r ... d=97902649

2 such on the video...the first shows fuel dump, but no damage.
The second shows fuel dump but closer pass and after the interruption of the video (Salty's shudder and vibration), the damaged propeller is clear.

The military say the entire set of maneuvers were dangerous and illegal, the actual contact likely incompetence rather than intentional contact, given risk to their own plane.

Can't be sure, of course, as clearly the effort was to force the drone down with the fuel dumps and the pilot may have been frustrated that fuel dumps were insufficient...but more likely just wanted more fuel to hit the drone harder.

From what I have read, the general thinking seems to be that the collision was unintentional.

Just another example of the staggering incompetence of the Russian military.

DocBarrister