Boston College v. UNC 3/3/23 at 4:00

[wlaxphan20]

Just a postscript. I think the defense from UNC -- coverage, communication, pushing offensive players to poor angles, staying on players' hands to the end, goalkeeping -- was only matched by the intensity and consistency of UNC's play. I'm no UNC fan, but the game plan and play from the defense was a joy to watch...as long as you weren't a BC fan. I was astonished by the lack of slides and help, and that is just real confidence in your athletes. Medjid is a skilled and accurate shooter, and shot badly, over the net, weakly, several times simply because BWW stayed on her and in her hands. I thought the players of the game were BWW and Nalls, but then I like defense in this essentially scorers' game.

I think Barnes and Levy sized up the athletes and saw that BC lacks a player who can consistently dodge, draw a double, get hands free, and understood that their kids could lock off the passes that make BC effective. I thought Martello did the best job of getting free, but even then, too few times. In any event, one staff had their kids ready. The other staff tried, but their kids on offense got suffocated. I was disappointed that we didn't get a nail-biter. But gotta hand it to UNC. They'll be my No. 1 until someone beats them.

I like defense as well. Looking forward to the NU matchup

[Madlax59]

Does this put to bed the notion that BC would be better without North?

I feel like that could me mis-read as a "troll" comment, but I was bit perplexed by the posters who were making that argument pre-season.

after just one game? I don't think so.

Yeah this was an ugly loss for BC, but BC usually builds off of losses like that. BC lost in a similar fashion (21-9) to UNC during the regular season the year they won the national championship in 2021.

and did we forget the Duke loss last year?? North was still on the team then.

BC lost to UNc. 3 times - with North last year .

[DMac]

Does this put to bed the notion that BC would be better without North?

I feel like that could me mis-read as a "troll" comment, but I was bit perplexed by the posters who were making that argument pre-season.

after just one game? I don't think so.

Yeah this was an ugly loss for BC, but BC usually builds off of losses like that. BC lost in a similar fashion (21-9) to UNC during the regular season the year they won the national championship in 2021.

and did we forget the Duke loss last year?? North was still on the team then.

Agree, w20, I've never seen BC look the way they did yesterday and I do believe they're better than what we saw v UNC.
BC never had it from the opening draw and couldn't break out their funk all day. Credit UNC for much of BC's funk, that
is one very good and complete team. There are games like that and days like that, I suspect we'll see a better BC team as the season goes on. Lost to a pretty good Northwestern team by one goal, and Northwestern played Cuse to a one goal game. It's still very early March, lot of time for improvement. In 2014 the Duke mlaxers came into the Dome and spanked Cuse like they hadn't been spanked in thirty some odd years, final was 21-7. They met later that year in the semi-final of the ACC tourney and...well, this says it better than I can.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXAWjncTYV0

[MDlaxfan76]

Does this put to bed the notion that BC would be better without North?

I feel like that this could be mis-read as a "troll" comment, but I was bit perplexed by the posters who were making that argument pre-season.

after just one game? I don't think so.

Yeah this was an ugly loss for BC, but BC usually builds off of losses like that. BC lost in a similar fashion (21-9) to UNC during the regular season the year they won the national championship in 2021.

and did we forget the Duke loss last year?? North was still on the team then.

ok, you're not ready; seems like an 'alpha' was needed yesterday.

[MDlaxfan76]

Does this put to bed the notion that BC would be better without North?

I feel like that could me mis-read as a "troll" comment, but I was bit perplexed by the posters who were making that argument pre-season.

after just one game? I don't think so.

Yeah this was an ugly loss for BC, but BC usually builds off of losses like that. BC lost in a similar fashion (21-9) to UNC during the regular season the year they won the national championship in 2021.

and did we forget the Duke loss last year?? North was still on the team then.

BC lost to UNc. 3 times - with North last year .

Yes, UNC was the better team last year.
But did BC lose like this, so resoundingly?
2 were one goal games, the other was a wider spread, but not a beatdown.
Are we saying that UNC is that much better than they were last year?

Not trying to take away from any of these teams and players, just seems to me that the predictions that BC was going to be better without North were ridiculous when made, and don't seem to be playing out that way...so far.

Presumably BC will improve over the season and the gap may be narrowed, but that particular prediction just seemed mean-spirited to me, maybe full of jealousy?

But I take the point that some aren't willing to give up on that prediction just yet...want to see more games...fair enough.

And to be clear, I have zero dog in this hunt, and am certainly not expert about the women's game...I only tune in for a handful of games each season. But been watching for a long time, had multiple women's players in family.

[wlaxphan20]

Does this put to bed the notion that BC would be better without North?

I feel like that this could be mis-read as a "troll" comment, but I was bit perplexed by the posters who were making that argument pre-season.

after just one game? I don't think so.

Yeah this was an ugly loss for BC, but BC usually builds off of losses like that. BC lost in a similar fashion (21-9) to UNC during the regular season the year they won the national championship in 2021.

and did we forget the Duke loss last year?? North was still on the team then.

ok, you're not ready; seems like an 'alpha' was needed yesterday.

Possibly, UNC's defense was also lights out. I honestly didn't think the way they were playing would be sustainable for the whole game and kept waiting for BC to go on a run. But I also think, on top of the entire team coming out rather flat, BC's goalie play was a real morale killer. UNC's momentum was like a runaway train, and they had it the entire game.

[njbill]

Md, I don’t think anybody is saying this year‘s UNC team is better than last year’s, notwithstanding yesterday’s very surprising result.

I think it was fairly debatable whether BC’s offense would be better without North. I thought not (too many goals to replace), but some did. The idea was that the scoring would be more balanced (usually a good thing) and that the ball movement would be better. North dominated the possession of the ball and the shooting so much that, arguably, that worked to the detriment of the team’s overall offense at times. Whether or not that is accurate, I think it is a fairly debatable point.

Sure, the BC offense yesterday, without North, did not look good at all. As was noted up thread, however, two years ago, UNC gave Boston College an even greater beat down, only to lose in the semifinals in May.

I think by the end of the year, the BC offense will be performing much better than they did yesterday. Will they be good as the North-led offense of last year? I don’t think so, but let’s make that judgment at the end of the year, not in early March.

And let’s not overlook the fact that BC’s no. 1 scoring threat, Medjid, is hurt. Her ankle is wrapped up to her knee. Her game is shiftiness and quickness. She seems to be moving pretty well, but I’ll bet she’s not 100%.

[wlaxphan20]

Does this put to bed the notion that BC would be better without North?

I feel like that could me mis-read as a "troll" comment, but I was bit perplexed by the posters who were making that argument pre-season.

after just one game? I don't think so.

Yeah this was an ugly loss for BC, but BC usually builds off of losses like that. BC lost in a similar fashion (21-9) to UNC during the regular season the year they won the national championship in 2021.

and did we forget the Duke loss last year?? North was still on the team then.

BC lost to UNc. 3 times - with North last year .

Yes, UNC was the better team last year.
But did BC lose like this, so resoundingly?
2 were one goal games, the other was a wider spread, but not a beatdown.
Are we saying that UNC is that much better than they were last year?

Not trying to take away from any of these teams and players, just seems to me that the predictions that BC was going to be better without North were ridiculous when made, and don't seem to be playing out that way...so far.

Presumably BC will improve over the season and the gap may be narrowed, but that particular prediction just seemed mean-spirited to me, maybe full of jealousy?

But I take the point that some aren't willing to give up on that prediction just yet...want to see more games...fair enough.

And to be clear, I have zero dog in this hunt, and am certainly not expert about the women's game...I only tune in for a handful of games each season. But been watching for a long time, had multiple women's players in family.

I don't necessarily think UNC is that much better than they were last year, but it's possible they still have a bit of the element of surprise on their side in early March. 9 of their goals came from the bench/substitution box. They have a lot of new names, and their freshman certainly don't play like freshman. It's possible before this game UNC could have been a little difficult to scout.

I don't quite understand how it is mean-spirited and "full of jealousy" to say BC will improve after this loss, could you expand on that a little?

[MDlaxfan76]

Md, I don’t think anybody is saying this year‘s UNC team is better than last year’s, notwithstanding yesterday’s very surprising result.

I think it was fairly debatable whether BC’s offense would be better without North. I thought not (too many goals to replace), but some did. The idea was that the scoring would be more balanced (usually a good thing) and that the ball movement would be better. North dominated the possession of the ball and the shooting so much that, arguably, that worked to the detriment of the team’s overall offense at times. Whether or not that is accurate, I think it is a fairly debatable point.

Sure, the BC offense yesterday, without North, did not look good at all. As was noted up thread, however, two years ago, UNC gave Boston College an even greater beat down, only to lose in the semifinals in May.

I think by the end of the year, the BC offense will be performing much better than they did yesterday. Will they be good as the North-led offense of last year? I don’t think so, but let’s make that judgment at the end of the year, not in early March.

And let’s not overlook the fact that BC’s no. 1 scoring threat, Medjid, is hurt. Her ankle is wrapped up to her knee. Her game is shiftiness and quickness. She seems to be moving pretty well, but I’ll bet she’s not 100%.

A very fair take and similar to my own. I'm 100% willing to take the patient view.

I simply think that the claim that BC would be better off without Charlotte North's alpha presence would be like saying Cornell was better off when Pannell wasn't available, or Brown without Molloy, or Albany without Thompson. An "alpha" of that caliber tilts the field.

Doesn't mean they are sufficient to win a NC, nor does it mean that other alphas can't emerge, I just find the argument that a team is likely to be better without one or more such players to be driven by something other than rational analysis.

I can only think of one situation in which a team was 'better' without the presence of a super talent and that was UVA when the Bratton brothers were kicked off the team after multiple suspensions. From what I understand, their off field attitudes had indeed been a deterrent; they were super talents, for sure, but on a team of numerous such...and UVA had Tewey winner Stanwick who led the way down the stretch. He was the true alpha on that team.

[MDlaxfan76]

Does this put to bed the notion that BC would be better without North?

I feel like that could me mis-read as a "troll" comment, but I was bit perplexed by the posters who were making that argument pre-season.

after just one game? I don't think so.

Yeah this was an ugly loss for BC, but BC usually builds off of losses like that. BC lost in a similar fashion (21-9) to UNC during the regular season the year they won the national championship in 2021.

and did we forget the Duke loss last year?? North was still on the team then.

BC lost to UNc. 3 times - with North last year .

Yes, UNC was the better team last year.
But did BC lose like this, so resoundingly?
2 were one goal games, the other was a wider spread, but not a beatdown.
Are we saying that UNC is that much better than they were last year?

Not trying to take away from any of these teams and players, just seems to me that the predictions that BC was going to be better without North were ridiculous when made, and don't seem to be playing out that way...so far.

Presumably BC will improve over the season and the gap may be narrowed, but that particular prediction (better without North) just seemed mean-spirited to me, maybe full of jealousy?

But I take the point that some aren't willing to give up on that prediction just yet...want to see more games...fair enough.

And to be clear, I have zero dog in this hunt, and am certainly not expert about the women's game...I only tune in for a handful of games each season. But been watching for a long time, had multiple women's players in family.

I don't necessarily think UNC is that much better than they were last year, but it's possible they still have a bit of the element of surprise on their side in early March. 9 of their goals came from the bench/substitution box. They have a lot of new names, and their freshman certainly don't play like freshman. It's possible before this game UNC could have been a little difficult to scout.

I don't quite understand how it is mean-spirited and "full of jealousy" to say BC will improve after this loss, could you expand on that a little?

I must not have been clear...I never said that I think BC won't improve after this loss. I'd certainly assume that they will improve. Most teams improve over the course of the season, certainly those which have strong talent and coaching typically do improve. No reason to not expect that for BC.

The loss of North, however, is what I was addressing...the prediction that BC would be better without her.
I'm from Missouri on that one.

[wlaxphan20]

Does this put to bed the notion that BC would be better without North?

I feel like that could me mis-read as a "troll" comment, but I was bit perplexed by the posters who were making that argument pre-season.

after just one game? I don't think so.

Yeah this was an ugly loss for BC, but BC usually builds off of losses like that. BC lost in a similar fashion (21-9) to UNC during the regular season the year they won the national championship in 2021.

and did we forget the Duke loss last year?? North was still on the team then.

BC lost to UNc. 3 times - with North last year .

Yes, UNC was the better team last year.
But did BC lose like this, so resoundingly?
2 were one goal games, the other was a wider spread, but not a beatdown.
Are we saying that UNC is that much better than they were last year?

Not trying to take away from any of these teams and players, just seems to me that the predictions that BC was going to be better without North were ridiculous when made, and don't seem to be playing out that way...so far.

Presumably BC will improve over the season and the gap may be narrowed, but that particular prediction (better without North) just seemed mean-spirited to me, maybe full of jealousy?

But I take the point that some aren't willing to give up on that prediction just yet...want to see more games...fair enough.

And to be clear, I have zero dog in this hunt, and am certainly not expert about the women's game...I only tune in for a handful of games each season. But been watching for a long time, had multiple women's players in family.

I don't necessarily think UNC is that much better than they were last year, but it's possible they still have a bit of the element of surprise on their side in early March. 9 of their goals came from the bench/substitution box. They have a lot of new names, and their freshman certainly don't play like freshman. It's possible before this game UNC could have been a little difficult to scout.

I don't quite understand how it is mean-spirited and "full of jealousy" to say BC will improve after this loss, could you expand on that a little?

I must not have been clear...I never said that I think BC won't improve after this loss. I'd certainly assume that they will improve. Most teams improve over the course of the season, certainly those which have strong talent and coaching typically do improve. No reason to not expect that for BC.

The loss of North, however, is what I was addressing...the prediction that BC would be better without her.
I'm from Missouri on that one.

Ooooh I see, I misunderstood. Thanks for clearing that up

[njbill]

I think as a general proposition it is true that a team with a dominant scorer will have a stronger offense than the team will have the year after the scorer graduates.

But I have seen the opposite happen in HS. Sometimes the other players are reluctant to take shots, thinking they should defer to the superstar. Sometimes the players on offense look first, second, and third to get the ball to the dominant scorer and don’t pay enough attention to, say, a fourth option who is open on a particular play.

It is too much to say that the offensive games of the non-star players atrophy, but they may not develop as much as they would if the offense is balanced. Overall, I would say, this scenario is the exception, and not the rule, but it does occur.

To my eyes, the BC offense is still in the process of finding its identity – what works and what doesn’t - at this early point in the season.

But there were other factors, I think, that contributed to the result yesterday. It’s not too simplistic to say that most everything went right for the Tar Heels and most everything went wrong for the Eagles.

Re-watching the game, I think UNC got more of the calls than BC did. Not criticizing the officials, but it seemed the calls just broke more in favor of the Tar Heels.

It was a one goal game with only a couple of minutes left in the first quarter. The game slid away from BC after that.

Hall had a tough day. Had she gotten a few saves here or there early on, the arc of the game may have been different. Without a doubt, BC could’ve used a big North run-stopping goal here or there.

I think Wlaxphan20 makes a good point about the element of surprise. BC knew how to defend the 2022 UNC team in their sleep. They had played many many games against their top scorers. This was the first time they had seen some of these players on offense.

I imagine their game plan going in had a particular concentration on stopping Wurzburger. Then she comes up lame and doesn’t play so that defensive game plan went out the window. Also, it just didn’t seem as though BC played with nearly the same amount of fire they have exhibited in their home games in their indoor facility.

[Can Opener]

I think it was fairly debatable whether BC’s offense would be better without North. I thought not (too many goals to replace), but some did. The idea was that the scoring would be more balanced (usually a good thing) and that the ball movement would be better. North dominated the possession of the ball and the shooting so much that, arguably, that worked to the detriment of the team’s overall offense at times. Whether or not that is accurate, I think it is a fairly debatable point.

“So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.”

As Bill suggests, "some" have beaten the dead horse ad nauseam till the cows come home 24/7 that North was selfish and took too many shots. The facts, as usual, don't make for very entertaining trolling and chirping. Whether you are from East Egg, West Egg, or somewhere in between, here are a few universal truths:

* Statistically speaking, SOMEONE has to take the most shots on a team
* CN took 22% of BC's shots last year
* Medjid took 17% of BC's shots last year
* Sam Apuzzo took 21% of BC's shots her senior year
* Jamie Ortega took 18% of UNC's shots last year
* Emily Hawryschuk took 21% of Cuse's shots last year
* Hannah Leubecker took 19% of Maryland's shots last year
* Izzy Scane took 31% of Northwestern's shots in '21 and has taken 22% of their shots this year

[njbill]

Ah, the dog still has his bone.

I’ll give you this, Can, good GG line.

[Can Opener]

Ah, the dog still has his bone.

I’ll give you this, Can, good GG line.

Thank you, my friend. You have to admit the data was a little surprising to you. Before diving into it, I didn't expect to find that CN and JM shared shots so evenly last year. And Medjid may have had the "quietest" 74 goals in women's D1 lacrosse last year given how much the media spotlight shined on CN. North is really is not a statistical outlier on shots.

I didn't have time to do a deep dive into the FPS shots, other than to note that BC averaged more than 7 per game last year and is down to 5 per game this year. North had a whopping 49 FPS (32 turned into goals) last year. This disparity really bit the Eagles in the Northwestern game when NU had 10 FPS to BC's 3. It was a smart strategy by KAH to have her women drive to the crease against that very strong BC defense, daring them to foul.

[njbill]

One of my pet peeves about free position statistics is that they only show shots that were taken. I would like to see 8m free positions awarded as a separate stat. Maybe something like 4-7 (12) to indicate 12 were awarded, 7 shots were taken, and 4 goals were scored.

So NU took 10 and BC took 3 FP shots. How many was each team awarded?

[DMac]

Another pet peeve is no assist is given on a successful FPS. Often times it's the pass that sets up the FPS, and often times as well, the recipient of that pass likely would have scored had she been able to shoot the shot. They aint gonna include that in the assist stats anytime soon but they sure should, IMHO.

[Can Opener]

Good points, boys. It would be interesting data to see. I suppose the problem is that once you get past the top 20 D1 teams, there probably isn't the infrastructure available to support extra scorekeeping and analysis. I noticed today, for example, that even Syracuse is miscalculating the shooting % stats for the men. (I know, nerd alert.)

[njbill]

Stat keeping is really tough. In most games I attend, I keep some stats, though nowhere near as many as are officially recorded in college games. It is mind-boggling to me that the stat keepers are able to keep up with the game and record all of the stats they do as the game is going on.

They make mistakes which is completely understandable. Unlike, say, in pro football, no one reviews the games later to correct any errors.

As to my suggestion, however, I think it would be easy to keep track of 8m FPs awarded. The game stops on all 8m free positions. It would be a simple thing for the stat keeper to make a tick mark on his or her score sheet to indicate a free position shot has been awarded. Circle it if a shot is taken. Put a line through the circle if a goal is scored. Or something like that.

[Sunnylax]

Md, I don’t think anybody is saying this year‘s UNC team is better than last year’s, notwithstanding yesterday’s very surprising result.

I think it was fairly debatable whether BC’s offense would be better without North. I thought not (too many goals to replace), but some did. The idea was that the scoring would be more balanced (usually a good thing) and that the ball movement would be better. North dominated the possession of the ball and the shooting so much that, arguably, that worked to the detriment of the team’s overall offense at times. Whether or not that is accurate, I think it is a fairly debatable point.

Sure, the BC offense yesterday, without North, did not look good at all. As was noted up thread, however, two years ago, UNC gave Boston College an even greater beat down, only to lose in the semifinals in May.

I think by the end of the year, the BC offense will be performing much better than they did yesterday. Will they be good as the North-led offense of last year? I don’t think so, but let’s make that judgment at the end of the year, not in early March.

And let’s not overlook the fact that BC’s no. 1 scoring threat, Medjid, is hurt. Her ankle is wrapped up to her knee. Her game is shiftiness and quickness. She seems to be moving pretty well, but I’ll bet she’s not 100%.

Let's not forget that BWW has been a fantastic low D player since her freshman year and gained valuable experience this past summer with team Canada. She also shut down Medjid last season for one of the 3 games they played. Medjid did not score and was not injured.