youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 9:19 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 9:06 am
youthathletics wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:51 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:27 pm
youthathletics wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:23 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:19 pm
youthathletics wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 7:44 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 7:37 pm
youthathletics wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 7:30 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 7:24 pm
youthathletics wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 7:16 pm
DocBarrister wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 7:13 pm
Deterring the war criminal Putin and Russia from attacking a NATO member is one of the major purposes of supporting Ukraine.
What is there to “share?”
DocBarrister
Did you hear his words. He wants our soldiers fighting on the ground with his people.
Huh? Read it again.
That's NOT what he's saying...IF Ukraine loses, Zelensky is predicting that Putin will not stop, he'll be on NATO's doorstep and the fight will continue. And if that fight continues, America will be sending its sons and daughters to war.
Nowhere is he asking for them to come now.
Why would you misrepresent this?
sheesh….see the forest. Do you think we are going to allow Ukraine to lose? And if they do lose….who goes down with them in our current proxy war? What would be the next steps is we see that Russia is going to win?
sheesh yourself, look at what
you wrote...it's a complete misrepresentation, a flat out lie, for that matter.
Did you just not read it yourself, listen yourself, or did you just vibe with the nutcases in your Twitter feed?
Now, if you have an actual issue with our helping Ukraine win this war, I'm all ears...but not for misrepresentations and lies, that are nothing more than Putinesque trolling.
I explained completely why I wrote what I did. And I heard Zelenskyy loud and clear. Would it help if I post it from a major news source so you can’t blame Twitter?l for what Zelenskyy said.
I guess you’re okay getting Americans killed….got it.
Huh?
You literally claimed he said something he absolutely did NOT say.
Try it again. With comprehension, please.
But putting words in someone's mouth, falsely, and then claiming that's what he
really meant...nope, that's just trolling misinformation.
Again, you want to make an argument that we shouldn't be helping Ukraine win, have at it...just don't lie or "misrepresent" about what someone has said. It destroys the credibility of any argument you want to have considered.
Doubling down looks bad on you.
yes, it does on you.
You literally lied about what he said and are trying, rather desperately, to pivot away from just admitting that wasn't what he said. It's ok to say oops.
Go ahead and make your argument that we shouldn't be helping Ukraine win and I'll engage in an honest, straight discussion with you.
Just don't troll us with tripe.
this has nothing to do with helping via proxy/financially. Take your argument up with Zelenskyy. His comments puts us in a bind a rock and a hard place. Because losing at this point IS NOT AN OPTION. Zelenskyy is a saying if we can’t win, send in troops.
You’ve said you don’t want that, so you should agree Zelenskyy, by his very words spoke out of turn, unless Biden already called the ball.
In what world of confusion do you think this is any different than what he's said over and over and over again about the situation should Russia defeat Ukraine? He's always said that Putin will not stop with Ukraine (Salty disagrees) and I think Zelensky is right. Putin's and the hardliners around him ambitions don't stop with Ukraine.
Zelensky's "comments" do not put us in this bind, rather it's the reality that he predicts which do.
Yes, Putin must be defeated if we don't want to see America's troops in direct conflict with Russia. I've said that since early days of the conflict and still think that's the case.
Moreover, a loss by Ukraine because the western support falters will significantly increase the likelihood and timetable of China attempting to take Taiwan by force, Japan and the US drawn into that conflict.
Russia's defeat, with western resolve, would discourage that conflict.
It's simply false to claim Zelensky said more than that Putin will force a fight directly with NATO.
I see you are still not caught up. WE, CANNOT, ALLOW, A, LOSS, for the reason you stated, which we both agree. So why are you even considering a loss as an option? Which means what.....we have to be
ALL IN, even if it means boots on the ground and THAT is what Zelesnkyy is projecting.
Play this out even further so we can move past you not understanding...
Let's assume a loss is on the horizon and russia is weeks away from taking UK over....
~ What do you propose? THEN
~ What do you propose if NATO drags their feet and we are left with everyone looking at us for muscle?
You are projecting
your conclusion, not what he said. Instead you've been misrepresenting his statement, blaming him or Biden for his "putting us in a bind".
But let's move to the argument that we are or should be considering sending troops to Ukraine to fight in those trenches...under the hypothetical that Ukraine is potentially close to capitulation under the weight of relentless barrages on civilian infrastructure and not enough weapons and manpower to repel the Russian horde on their own.
First, that's not the current reality.
The Ukrainian civilians are amazingly resilient and committed and the defensive weaponry they've been provided has dramatically reduced the impact of Russian barrages. They've pushed the Russians back and are preparing to push them back a lot further come spring and summer.
Second, if Russia made major gains despite the above, and NATO decided they MUST take action before Kiev falls, the reaction wouldn't be to send troops to trenches, it would be to dominate the airspace with fighters and drones manned by NATO. But yes, some Americans would die if we did so...it would also hugely escalate the probability of nuclear.
So, we haven't done so.
However, IF the west withdrew its financial and military arms support, Ukraine would soon exhaust what it has been provided...Russia's weight would likely prevail and at some point Kiev would fall, etc. Mass atrocities.
Zelensky is saying Putin would be emboldened, his troops hardened and experienced, and he would drive forward against NATO.
NATO will need to fight directly, IF Ukraine doesn't defeat Russia.
But only IF.