Dartmouth Men's Lacrosse

[RumorMill]

So I don’t have to preface every statement below with IMO, everything below should be read as “in my opinion”.

Let’s cut to the chase. Everything comes down to results! And the Big Green just aren’t getting them and haven’t for the last 4 years (or 5 depending on how you look at it)!.

I mentioned in an earlier post that off the field behavior and expectations should be “non-negotiable”, especially in today's day and age of social media and “everything” else. With that said, I’m sure there’s a long list of applicants with other redeeming qualities and attributes that you could bring in to create a team with an exceptional “off the field” reputation and resume and also go 0-22 in the Ivy League over the past 4 seasons. The main thing “I” care about are Ivy League wins. OOC scheduling should be strategic to both pad your wins record, strengthen your overall schedule and develop the team. But the only wins that matter are Ivy League! If you win the Ivy League you have an automatic bid to the post season.

Back to results. Yale gets away with certain antics on the field because they win (and are national champs). Could you imagine if a Dartmouth player was getting an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty? I guess if they were national champs and currently in the top ten, we’d probably comment a bit and then move on to talking about the ILT and NCAA tournament.

One of my biggest issues with a lot of these comments (and excuses) about building towards the future is… what about the Seniors this year? They don’t get a 2020 season (and no, I do not have a son, nephew, friend, etc. on the team)… and the seniors last year for that matter. What about the Juniors this year that aren’t playing because we’re trying to build our Freshman and Sophomores for 2020 and 2021? I’m sure they (the Jr's) are looking forward to next season and everyone talking about the next class coming in and how those Freshman will help the team. I get it, some of the underclassman definitely deserve to play over upperclassmen… but that again speaks to the last 4 years of recruiting. So we are giving coaching staff’s 5 years to figure it out now (and if we’re looking at 2021 then 7 years to figure it out)? Anyone pay attention to the Georgetown chatter last season. Coming off two losing seasons, hit a 3 game losing streak (after starting the season hot) and “people” started talking about the coach.

Like a lot of posters here, I want to see Dartmouth competitive both for DARTMOUTH but also for Ivy League lacrosse. It’s no fun looking at the schedule and seeing what appears to be an automatic win within your own league… for everyone’s sake. Two games left and as always a win makes this a different conversation. Until that happens we’ll have to wait for next season and potentially have the same discussions.

[Laxjunkie]

So I don’t have to preface every statement below with IMO, everything below should be read as “in my opinion”.

Let’s cut to the chase. Everything comes down to results! And the Big Green just aren’t getting them and haven’t for the last 4 years (or 5 depending on how you look at it)!.

Like a lot of posters here, I want to see Dartmouth competitive both for DARTMOUTH but also for Ivy League lacrosse. It’s no fun looking at the schedule and seeing what appears to be an automatic win within your own league… for everyone’s sake. Two games left and as always a win makes this a different conversation. Until that happens we’ll have to wait for next season and potentially have the same discussions.

Exactly.
And wait until next season...

[check sticks]

FO - a complete whiff - some very poor decisions have been made regarding past and potential recruits (and transfers). A general lack of appreciation for the importance of the position.

Let's be honest. Andy Towers, Mr FACEOFF himself, should have been able to size up FO talent and have that pipeline DEEP.
Callahan's first year, Hession buffered the FO position. But Hession was not recruited as such.
Then we head down the rabbit hole of dismissed players, behavioral mishaps that derailed recruits, etc. Injuries thinned out an already thin talent pool at FOGO.
BUT had the Towers FOGO pipeline been stocked as you'd expect, at least 3 or 4 seasons of Dart lacrosse under Callahan should NOT have "whiffed" as DCIII suggests.

[MDlaxfan76]

So I don’t have to preface every statement below with IMO, everything below should be read as “in my opinion”.

Let’s cut to the chase. Everything comes down to results! And the Big Green just aren’t getting them and haven’t for the last 4 years (or 5 depending on how you look at it)!.

I mentioned in an earlier post that off the field behavior and expectations should be “non-negotiable”, especially in today's day and age of social media and “everything” else. With that said, I’m sure there’s a long list of applicants with other redeeming qualities and attributes that you could bring in to create a team with an exceptional “off the field” reputation and resume and also go 0-22 in the Ivy League over the past 4 seasons. The main thing “I” care about are Ivy League wins. OOC scheduling should be strategic to both pad your wins record, strengthen your overall schedule and develop the team. But the only wins that matter are Ivy League! If you win the Ivy League you have an automatic bid to the post season.

Back to results. Yale gets away with certain antics on the field because they win (and are national champs). Could you imagine if a Dartmouth player was getting an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty? I guess if they were national champs and currently in the top ten, we’d probably comment a bit and then move on to talking about the ILT and NCAA tournament.

One of my biggest issues with a lot of these comments (and excuses) about building towards the future is… what about the Seniors this year? They don’t get a 2020 season (and no, I do not have a son, nephew, friend, etc. on the team)… and the seniors last year for that matter. What about the Juniors this year that aren’t playing because we’re trying to build our Freshman and Sophomores for 2020 and 2021? I’m sure they (the Jr's) are looking forward to next season and everyone talking about the next class coming in and how those Freshman will help the team. I get it, some of the underclassman definitely deserve to play over upperclassmen… but that again speaks to the last 4 years of recruiting. So we are giving coaching staff’s 5 years to figure it out now (and if we’re looking at 2021 then 7 years to figure it out)? Anyone pay attention to the Georgetown chatter last season. Coming off two losing seasons, hit a 3 game losing streak (after starting the season hot) and “people” started talking about the coach.

Like a lot of posters here, I want to see Dartmouth competitive both for DARTMOUTH but also for Ivy League lacrosse. It’s no fun looking at the schedule and seeing what appears to be an automatic win within your own league… for everyone’s sake. Two games left and as always a win makes this a different conversation. Until that happens we’ll have to wait for next season and potentially have the same discussions.

The only problem I have about your impatience is the notion that the issue of W's has been limited to the current HC, as if it was better with the prior. His last year was a 2-10 season, including a worse loss to Hartford than this year's. The last time we won 2 Ivy games was 2010, and it declined from there. As did the off-field issues.

The transition between HC's was a mess; on that at least, I think we can all agree. The new HC wasn't aboard until the summer recruiting season was over and he wasn't able to get a complete staff until the end of that fall. Basically a lost recruiting class. And that original staff has been considerably upgraded (IMO) this year. That should pay off over time.

The HC struggled to turn the direction of the 'culture' in his first 2 years and ultimately made a rather radical decision to do a major cut in the winter. He wanted a core group who he felt were bought in. IMO, that cost quite a bit, certainly in the short term.

So, here we are.
As I said, I think the AD and the Administration is likely to be pleased with the culture of the program and will give some more time to produce the W's. So, I'm rooting for the team we have, not the team we wish we had.

BTW, if you think there's a senior or junior not getting playing time who really should be, who exactly?

Our best senior, indeed the most decorated player on the team, captain, is injured. He'd be leading the defense if not injured. I don't see any basis that under classmen are being favored simply because they're under class men. I've seen that happen at another program with a coaching change where the best O midfielder, the best shooting attack man, the best SSDM, the best pole, the best goalie, as seniors all were moved down the depth chart behind under classmen who never matched them. I don't see any of that happening with this 2019 Dartmouth team.

Maybe, just maybe, there's a junior or senior who should be out there more...but I don't see any evidence of such... at least based upon the stats they have when out there. But feel free to suggest someone in specific.

After the shellacking Harvard took with Penn last week, I suspect today will not be the one goal 2 OT game it was in last year's very near upset. Penn appears to be hitting on all cylinders and I would expect a big difference in possessions.

It's gonna sting, but I hope the guys keep their heads high.

[check sticks]

Penn appears to be hitting on all cylinders and I would expect a big difference in possessions.
It's gonna sting, but I hope the guys keep their heads high.

Ground hog day

[RumorMill]

The only problem I have about your impatience is the notion that the issue of W's has been limited to the current HC, as if it was better with the prior. His last year was a 2-10 season, including a worse loss to Hartford than this year's. The last time we won 2 Ivy games was 2010, and it declined from there. As did the off-field issues.

MD, you're correct, and that's where a lot of impatience comes from. The Dartmouth supporters had to deal with the previous coaching staff's record. There was finally a change, with that change comes the belief that there will be a brighter future and better RESULTS. For me patience is giving the staff 2-3 years to figure it out... ok 3 years in, we're working things out... 4 years wait a second... 5 years, whoops, same results. I think it's great that the off field culture has changed for the better... but I just don't accept that as the constant go to excuse to deflect from the on field results.

Now 5 years into the new regime with no improvement in record (OOC or Ivy), I think calling that "impatience" is a stretch. With that said, it's been beaten to death enough from me and for me. I will refrain from posting any additional criticism towards the coaching staff (as I also put the onus and blame on the administration and "friends" group). One game remaining this season, I will put my rose colored glasses on and get on the 2021 band wagon.

Go Big Green!

[MDlaxfan76]

The only problem I have about your impatience is the notion that the issue of W's has been limited to the current HC, as if it was better with the prior. His last year was a 2-10 season, including a worse loss to Hartford than this year's. The last time we won 2 Ivy games was 2010, and it declined from there. As did the off-field issues.

MD, you're correct, and that's where a lot of impatience comes from. The Dartmouth supporters had to deal with the previous coaching staff's record. There was finally a change, with that change comes the belief that there will be a brighter future and better RESULTS. For me patience is giving the staff 2-3 years to figure it out... ok 3 years in, we're working things out... 4 years wait a second... 5 years, whoops, same results. I think it's great that the off field culture has changed for the better... but I just don't accept that as the constant go to excuse to deflect from the on field results.

Now 5 years into the new regime with no improvement in record (OOC or Ivy), I think calling that "impatience" is a stretch. With that said, it's been beaten to death enough from me and for me. I will refrain from posting any additional criticism towards the coaching staff (as I also put the onus and blame on the administration and "friends" group). One game remaining this season, I will put my rose colored glasses on and get on the 2021 band wagon.

Go Big Green!

Fair enough.

I've been back on the Friends group since 2017 (after son graduated college) and, unless someone is willing to step up with either significant bucks or significant time, I'd suggest it's not really fair to take shots at those who actually do commit $ and time. Many on the Friends Committee have invested very significantly over the years, in both ways.

The group certainly welcomes all who wish to contribute!

Feel free to PM me if you haven't felt welcome to do so. BTW, we're starting to see a younger cohort of alums beginning to step up into leadership roles with the org, which is terrific.

The Administration is perhaps another matter. Certainly we've wondered over the many years whether the Administration really understood the lacrosse landscape, including being willing to actually fund adequately. There's also been real concern about how committed the College has been to sports in general, with some exceptions. To my mind, that's been paralleled with some of the Administration's leadership losing sight of what makes Dartmouth special, for all its students. Too much chasing other Ivies, not enough focus on strengthening and celebrating what makes us special.

I get the sense that's improved dramatically recently, but it remains to be seen whether the follow through will match the much improved rhetoric. Looks positive, though.

[RumorMill]

My apologies, was referring specifically to the "advisory board" within the "Friends group" and definitely should not have generalized. To your point, all the alums (and "friends") that support and donate to the program are awesome and should be well regarded.

Go Big Green!

[Can Opener]

Struggling to understand the GK strategy. While the Dartmouth faithful wish for transcendent players, they may be overlooking one in #2. He has my vote for All Ivy HM for a remarkable freshman campaign behind the least accomplished D in the league. Yesterday provided another case in point as to why he should be the starter for the next 3.1 seasons. No disrespect to his fellow GK, but #2 is the real deal.

[b1w7o9y7h]

The Administration is perhaps another matter. Certainly we've wondered over the many years whether the Administration really understood the lacrosse landscape, including being willing to actually fund adequately. There's also been real concern about how committed the College has been to sports in general, with some exceptions. To my mind, that's been paralleled with some of the Administration's leadership losing sight of what makes Dartmouth special, for all its students. Too much chasing other Ivies, not enough focus on strengthening and celebrating what makes us special.

The three points above - 1) lax commitment, 2) sports in general commitment 3) Dartmouth administration and leadership being committed to...Dartmouth being Dartmouth - are all topics which when assessed via either surface sound bites and armchair optics, or if studied in depth, will provide the same frustrating exercise which begs the questions "what is really real here?", "who is in charge here?", and "how are they basing their decisions (or inertia)?". I don't know sheet from sheenola in terms of in depth knowledge or research, but a quick personal observation working from one to three is:

1) the alums and friends of Dartmouth, and the parents, student athletes, coaches, and AD all seem to want DC men's lax to turn a corner and find the path to being competitive with our Ivy peers. The administration...no idea where they stand here. Not necessarily mentioned often is how in today's competitive lacrosse landscape the roster size and need for specialized positional players, is dramatically more taxing on Dartmouth's ability to field a competitive lax team compared to our Ivy competitors. Dartmouth men's soccer - often quoted as being an Ivy leader and even competitive on the national collegiate soccer landscape fields 30 on its roster. Lax needs 40. So today's competitive lacrosse teams for NCAA D1 requires a near football team sized roster to keep up with the Jonses.

2) Which brings us to Dartmouth's size, and sports in general. Not sure what the administration and leadership feel about sports in general, but for its size, Dartmouth sports are pretty darn good vis-a-vis our Ivy peers. Undergraduate enrollment in the Ivies tells a tale of doing more with less for the College on the Hill.

Dartmouth: 4,300
Princeton: 5,400
Yale: 5,800
Columbia: 6,200
Harvard: 6,800
Brown: 7,000
UPenn: 10,000
Cornell: 15,000

I realize sheer numbers, AI stuff, school by school preferences for "success" and on and on the nuances go, but for being diminutive in terms of available bodies for sports programs, Dear Old Dartmouth can keep its chin up.

3) This board's lax-o-centric focus aside, Dartmouth biggest challenge and the focus of my biggest fears for the College lie here. No need to go into specifics, but "the Administration's leadership losing sight of what makes Dartmouth special, for all its students" is to put it mildly "an issue". Dartmouth's worst problem compared to our Ivy peers might be a bloated "administrative overhead" which might be "doing less with more" in terms of spending on actual education (the part about professors and students). But that is a digression from having a good FOGO or three, and indoor bubbles.

One game to go in this spring's gnarly campaign. I want to have faith that the last 4-5 years have meant what we have hoped they meant, and next year's on field performance is the only barometer left which doesn't wear rose colored glasses (which I do), drink Green Kool-aid (which I do), and pray every game day for those depressingly elusive "W's" (which I do).

[MDlaxfan76]

My apologies, was referring specifically to the "advisory board" within the "Friends group" and definitely should not have generalized. To your point, all the alums (and "friends") that support and donate to the program are awesome and should be well regarded.

Go Big Green!

Dunno about 'awesome' or 'well regarded' but, yeah, guys who actually do contribute are probably not those to focus critique upon, unless one is willing to step up too.

There's no lack of opportunity to do so.

Not sure, either, what you mean by "advisory board". Do you mean the Friends Committee? These are the guys who contribute more than money (though they also tend to include many of the largest donors over the years). Many have devoted quite a lot of time, whether raising $ or mentoring, etc. You won't find a group of guys more interested in seeing Dartmouth succeed in our sport.

Historically the men's side has also carried the bulk of the fundraising weight for the two programs, men's and women's lax.

While the committee does have a voice with the AD, and can be of significant assistance, it would be a mistake to think that we actually make the decisions about who the coaches are going to be.

[MDlaxfan76]

Struggling to understand the GK strategy. While the Dartmouth faithful wish for transcendent players, they may be overlooking one in #2. He has my vote for All Ivy HM for a remarkable freshman campaign behind the least accomplished D in the league. Yesterday provided another case in point as to why he should be the starter for the next 3.1 seasons. No disrespect to his fellow GK, but #2 is the real deal.

I tend to agree, based on what we can observe on the field.

That said, the position overall is a current strength, both guys recruited by the HC, himself a former goalie.

[MDlaxfan76]

The Administration is perhaps another matter. Certainly we've wondered over the many years whether the Administration really understood the lacrosse landscape, including being willing to actually fund adequately. There's also been real concern about how committed the College has been to sports in general, with some exceptions. To my mind, that's been paralleled with some of the Administration's leadership losing sight of what makes Dartmouth special, for all its students. Too much chasing other Ivies, not enough focus on strengthening and celebrating what makes us special.

The three points above - 1) lax commitment, 2) sports in general commitment 3) Dartmouth administration and leadership being committed to...Dartmouth being Dartmouth - are all topics which when assessed via either surface sound bites and armchair optics, or if studied in depth, will provide the same frustrating exercise which begs the questions "what is really real here?", "who is in charge here?", and "how are they basing their decisions (or inertia)?". I don't know sheet from sheenola in terms of in depth knowledge or research, but a quick personal observation working from one to three is:

1) the alums and friends of Dartmouth, and the parents, student athletes, coaches, and AD all seem to want DC men's lax to turn a corner and find the path to being competitive with our Ivy peers. The administration...no idea where they stand here. Not necessarily mentioned often is how in today's competitive lacrosse landscape the roster size and need for specialized positional players, is dramatically more taxing on Dartmouth's ability to field a competitive lax team compared to our Ivy competitors. Dartmouth men's soccer - often quoted as being an Ivy leader and even competitive on the national collegiate soccer landscape fields 30 on its roster. Lax needs 40. So today's competitive lacrosse teams for NCAA D1 requires a near football team sized roster to keep up with the Jonses.

2) Which brings us to Dartmouth's size, and sports in general. Not sure what the administration and leadership feel about sports in general, but for its size, Dartmouth sports are pretty darn good vis-a-vis our Ivy peers. Undergraduate enrollment in the Ivies tells a tale of doing more with less for the College on the Hill.

Dartmouth: 4,300
Princeton: 5,400
Yale: 5,800
Columbia: 6,200
Harvard: 6,800
Brown: 7,000
UPenn: 10,000
Cornell: 15,000

I realize sheer numbers, AI stuff, school by school preferences for "success" and on and on the nuances go, but for being diminutive in terms of available bodies for sports programs, Dear Old Dartmouth can keep its chin up.

3) This board's lax-o-centric focus aside, Dartmouth biggest challenge and the focus of my biggest fears for the College lie here. No need to go into specifics, but "the Administration's leadership losing sight of what makes Dartmouth special, for all its students" is to put it mildly "an issue". Dartmouth's worst problem compared to our Ivy peers might be a bloated "administrative overhead" which might be "doing less with more" in terms of spending on actual education (the part about professors and students). But that is a digression from having a good FOGO or three, and indoor bubbles.

One game to go in this spring's gnarly campaign. I want to have faith that the last 4-5 years have meant what we have hoped they meant, and next year's on field performance is the only barometer left which doesn't wear rose colored glasses (which I do), drink Green Kool-aid (which I do), and pray every game day for those depressingly elusive "W's" (which I do).

Your #3 does seem to be the greatest challenge, certainly was over the past couple of decades. I sense a change (and have heard it verbalized quite clearly). There does at least appear to be a recognition that we went astray.

However, along with that issue, there's also been a lot of momentum to de-emphasize sports, indeed to see them in conflict with the academic mission. A lack of recognition of the ways sports can/should be integrated with the mission to build society's future leaders. The latter has been building across the board at the most elite level academic institutions, not merely Dartmouth.

It's going to be interesting to see where society goes in this regard, and how schools like Dartmouth address it.

[Ghost]

UPenn looks the part of A Final 4 Team!
DC might want to adopt UPenn’s Strength and Conditioning Program...
This Season’s UPenn’s players are much bigger and faster, than their last year’s team.

[OldBay]

Struggling to understand the GK strategy. While the Dartmouth faithful wish for transcendent players, they may be overlooking one in #2. He has my vote for All Ivy HM for a remarkable freshman campaign behind the least accomplished D in the league. Yesterday provided another case in point as to why he should be the starter for the next 3.1 seasons. No disrespect to his fellow GK, but #2 is the real deal.

With all due respect, DC’s long poles are the strength of the team and can only hold on for so long until exhaustion sets in during the second half as DC’s offensive ineptitude is truly offensive. All goalies at the D1 level need to be able to stop a majority of shots from up top, and that has been the Achilles heel of #2 all season. Favorable save percentages against teams that should not be playing D1 lacrosse masks the performance against truly talented teams, as we saw in Ivy League play.

Nonetheless, this is not really about #2 or #37; DC is fortunate to have both of them – they are both good, solid goalies. The coaching staff mismanaged this personnel situation, as well as many others. The lack of depth at several positions and the lack of incoming recruits to plug those holes falls on one person. The DC faithful thought Dags was the problem, but he’s enjoying a lot of success at RPI who is putting up tons of points. Conner had a lot of success at Bucknell and has fallen into the black hole that is Dartmouth lacrosse.

[thetruth]

Dartmouth is a great school with fantastic spirit. Every kid is blessed to be there. There's more to life than wins and losses on the lacrosse field.

[wahoomurf]

Dartmouth is a great school with fantastic spirit. Every kid is blessed to be there. There's more to life than wins and losses on the lacrosse field.

+1.

[calourie]

Dartmouth gets almost as much ink on these threads with its' 2-10 record as Yale does at 9-2. Impressive amount of allegiance and concern. Go Big Green. Get better soon, just not good enough to beat Yale.

[MDlaxfan76]

Struggling to understand the GK strategy. While the Dartmouth faithful wish for transcendent players, they may be overlooking one in #2. He has my vote for All Ivy HM for a remarkable freshman campaign behind the least accomplished D in the league. Yesterday provided another case in point as to why he should be the starter for the next 3.1 seasons. No disrespect to his fellow GK, but #2 is the real deal.

With all due respect, DC’s long poles are the strength of the team and can only hold on for so long until exhaustion sets in during the second half as DC’s offensive ineptitude is truly offensive. All goalies at the D1 level need to be able to stop a majority of shots from up top, and that has been the Achilles heel of #2 all season. Favorable save percentages against teams that should not be playing D1 lacrosse masks the performance against truly talented teams, as we saw in Ivy League play.

Nonetheless, this is not really about #2 or #37; DC is fortunate to have both of them – they are both good, solid goalies. The coaching staff mismanaged this personnel situation, as well as many others. The lack of depth at several positions and the lack of incoming recruits to plug those holes falls on one person. The DC faithful thought Dags was the problem, but he’s enjoying a lot of success at RPI who is putting up tons of points. Conner had a lot of success at Bucknell and has fallen into the black hole that is Dartmouth lacrosse.

OldBay, you now have 2 posts to your name, both ripping the head coach pretty darn hard.

What's your angle on this? Alum, former player, current player family?
"Dags"? (yes, I know who you mean).

In this one, you appear to be suggesting that #37 Christopher is the better tender and that the situation has been mismanaged by the HC?

Are you really saying that Hinck's 53.4% saves in the Ivies, so far, isn't pretty darn good?

I'm a big fan of George Christopher's game, but it's not as if his 49% this year, 51% last year, and 50% as a freshman, establish him as the obvious #1.

Neither of these guys is going to be perfect, every game, but both of them have the capability to 'win' games if the rest of the team plays well. We're really lucky to have them.

Yes, we do need to put more balls in the back of the net and yes we do need to win more at X. Is that going to happen this year? Not likely.

[Bandito]

Dartmouth is a great school with fantastic spirit. Every kid is blessed to be there. There's more to life than wins and losses on the lacrosse field.

LOL! Sums up the victim mentality pretty good here. It is pretty simple as to why DC is bad. There are a lot better options to play lacrosse and go to school.