All Things Russia & Ukraine

[a fan]

How does Biden's budget compare to Trump's last pre-covid budget ?

For 2022? Higher! Was I not clear on this point? If he claimed he didn't, as you say......as I wrote in the last post, Biden is lying.

Does this help you to acknowledge that yes, Trump increased spending and the size of Government while in office? Or are you just going to keep asking me questions, and not acknowledge these things?

What Biden did doesn't change what Trump did.

[old salt]

How does Biden's budget compare to Trump's last pre-covid budget ?

For 2022? Higher! Was I not clear on this point? If he claimed he didn't, as you say......as I wrote in the last post, Biden is lying.

Does this help you to acknowledge that yes, Trump increased spending and the size of Government while in office? Or are you just going to keep asking me questions, and not acknowledge these things?

What Biden did doesn't change what Trump did.

I never denied what Trump did. I did not engage. I let you rant on, unchallenged.

[a fan]

...I just hope a free 12" sub is all we get.

There is ALWAYS blowback, OS. We've been discussing these stupid proxy wars for years. And every SINGLE TIME, unforeseen stuff happens. Every time. And we clutch pearls, and act shocked when the downside arrives.

It's why I cheered Obama for economic sanctions for Crimea, and doing NOTHING militarily, while Right Wing America crucified him for being smart, and playing the long game.

And why I said that I wouldn't have lost a wink of sleep if Biden had simply increased sanctions if Putin invaded Ukraine.

[a fan]

How does Biden's budget compare to Trump's last pre-covid budget ?

For 2022? Higher! Was I not clear on this point? If he claimed he didn't, as you say......as I wrote in the last post, Biden is lying.

Does this help you to acknowledge that yes, Trump increased spending and the size of Government while in office? Or are you just going to keep asking me questions, and not acknowledge these things?

What Biden did doesn't change what Trump did.

I never denied what Trump did. I did not engage. I let you rant on, unchallenged.

¥es. You did.

...covid relief = making govt bigger.

Not my fault you chose to mock and imply, without spelling it out. You don't get to be snarky, and then turn around and say "I didn't say those exact words", sorry. Either be civil, and use your words, or don't.

[MDlaxfan76]

You're the party of big government

Trump made the government 66% bigger in four years. Four years. That's insane. Did you complain? Did the Tea Party reassemble, and march?

As for your freeloader comment...how do you think the lights are on in rural America right now. It's not local and State spending. It's Federal.

That's why your party makes the Federal government larger every chance they get. They cannot survive without all that borrowed money....given away freely.

Obama cut spending two years in a row with the sequester. Republicans screamed bloody murder about it, if you'll recall. "Hollowed out military" and other charges.

I've said this many times: the last Republican that cut spending from one year to another was Eisenhower. So where'd you get the idea that the Republican Party was the party of small government?

some guy on the internet

Do you see this coming from a Dem? You have a better chance of being attacked by a Grizzly Bear and a Polar Bear on the same day than you do a Democrat reducing the federal workforce.

https://massie.house.gov/news/documents ... tID=395319

We need more people like Massie. MIT Doctorate, lives off the grid at home, reluctant congressman. BTW, he knew what was going on with natural immunity in June of 2021.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf4qAwntlkw

I took a little look at Massie's background and positions to get a better handle on what might have attracted you...fascinating record in congress.

One of 3 'no' votes against Stolen Valor Act??? What the heck?
John Birch Society?

Wants to abolish the EPA and Dept of Education...

Real piece of work..

votes against condemnation of North Korea, China and Iran on human rights...

sole member to vote against medals for officers who defended the Capitol on Jan 6

voted against making lynching a hate crime

climate change denier

wants to reduce legal immigration, that's right legal immigration...

And, obtw, voted for the deficit spending and tax cuts under Trump...but against funding support for Israel's Iran Dome system...

But hey, I see what it might be, he's pro cannabis! yeah!

The guy's a nut job, but I was attracted to the initial part of his education and early career, because I know a little about the VC industry in New England, something about sensor technologies as well, and thought it interesting that he had a patent and is credited for starting a company, SenSable Technologies, with his wife that later attracted $32 million in VC money when it reincorporated with a serious CEO...company was eventually sold for a couple million, though.
https://xconomy.com/boston/2012/05/17/f ... sie-story/

Guy likes his guns too.

On thread topic, he was also the only member of Congress to vote against an act refusing to recognize Russia's illegal annexation of Crimea...all sorts of Putin support...

It’s really disturbing that we have a Massie supporter posting on this forum.

DocBarrister

It's disturbing that anyone supports Massie, anywhere, but they do...but it certainly tells us where get it to X's head is at...

One of my closest and oldest friends, recently deceased from cancer, used to joke, as an African American, that he appreciated those who proudly flew their Confederate flags on their houses or in their pick up truck...made it easier to know who they are...

So, I appreciate get it to X telling us who he is...though he hides who he's voted for in the past...

Voted for Carter and Clinton in '96. Otherwise Republicans, and if Trump is the nominee I will vote for him again. Satisfied?

Interesting; was it being southern guys that attracted you to Carter and Clinton?
Against Reagan and against Dole...
I didn't vote for either Carter or Clinton, but then I'm actually a lifelong Republican.

Supporting Trump despite the election denialism, admiring a guy like Massie...where'd you go so far off the rails?

What does Southern have to do with anything? I grew up on the wrong side of the tracks in Towson. I'm with Trump on states that he lost that changed the rules without using the legislature to do so. I like following the rules. You apparently like ignoring them for political expediency.

Carter beat Gerald Ford FYI.

You like following the rules???
Is that what Trump claimed happened, the "rules" weren't followed???

hmmm, seems to me that Trump claimed he'd actually won the states and he and his goons tried to have phony electors get counted...falsely...follow the rules???

Seriously, when did you go so far off the rails politically that you'd support Trump even after Jan 6, all the lies, all the corruption? And Massie?? Do you like Greene too? There are SO many bozos in the GOP House right now...

I'm from within 10 miles of you, and yeah a lotta wanna be southerners in our neck of the woods.

Ahh, you voted against Ford?

Or did you actually like Carter?
I didn't turn 18 in '76 until November 20, too late for that cycle, but I'd have voted for Ford.
Pretty disgusted by what had gone down with Watergate, and Vietnam for that matter, but Ford felt like a reasonable choice.

[MDlaxfan76]

All the current debate about F-16's for Ukraine makes my head want to explode.
There's no way F-16's can be deployed soon enough to impact this year's fighting.
For the longer term, Ukraine does not have the necessary military infrastructure (human or physical)
& won't have it until well into the postwar rebuilding period.
imho, the Saab Gripen * is the only western fighter that Ukrainians could operate in the near term, thanks to it's ability to operate from short, rough runways. Maybe someday the STVOL F-35B being operated by the Brits & our Marines.
Ukraine's proximity to Russia will never change. They need hardened aviation facilities & aircraft shelters, the ability to operate from dispersed, austere runways & the air defense systems necessary to protect their air bases. Otherwise, the Ukrainians will burn through their fighter aircraft inventory as rapidly as they're expending their allies' howitzer barrels & shells.
The EU should make the deal with Sweden, & provide the necessary guarantees, to increase Gripen production now.
EU/NATO members could use them if Ukraine collapses (which is unlikely).

* https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2021/ ... ssons.html

Assuming you are correct about Ukraine's physical infrastructure needs and the inability to deploy F-16s from current infrastructure, and the potential for this particular plane in the meantime, certainly makes sense to move as much to them as possible, as fast as possible...perhaps with backfill to any NATO donor countries with F-16's for whom that makes sense.

But how different are the requirements for MiG-29s, Su-24s, Su-25s and Su-27's?
Those are all flown from Ukraine currently.

Don't need the same runways?

The Brits and French also have jets they appear willing to contribute.

Apparently our military believes that air defense systems and artillery are much more urgently needed given massing of fixed wing aircraft by Russia in preparation for their impending major push.

Seems to me that longer striking missiles and drones would not have the issues you describe for the F-16's...so prioritize those as well?

Critical that Ukraine can strike deeply within the Russian occupied areas and nearby bases, command and control, etc. Precision is the West's advantage, gotta leverage that as much as possible.

Unlike most western fighters, Soviet legacy fighters are designed to operate from shorter, austere runways.

https://breakingdefense.com/2023/02/a-c ... th-moscow/

Su-27's too?

BTW, I'm fine with getting Ukraine the best, most appropriate striking force that they can actually use effectively to win the war and push Russia out.

That needn't be F-156's...seems to me that the longer range missiles and more drones would be appropriate, with as many appropriate fighter planes from our allies as they can find, with F-16's to backfill the allies' needs.

[old salt]

How does Biden's budget compare to Trump's last pre-covid budget ?

For 2022? Higher! Was I not clear on this point? If he claimed he didn't, as you say......as I wrote in the last post, Biden is lying.

Does this help you to acknowledge that yes, Trump increased spending and the size of Government while in office? Or are you just going to keep asking me questions, and not acknowledge these things?

What Biden did doesn't change what Trump did.

I never denied what Trump did. I did not engage. I let you rant on, unchallenged.

¥es. You did.

...covid relief = making govt bigger.

Not my fault you chose to mock and imply, without spelling it out. You don't get to be snarky, and then turn around and say "I didn't say those exact words", sorry. Either be civil, and use your words, or don't.

You claimed Trump made govt 66% bigger, with no specifics on what that means.
Are you referring to just budget size, actual spending, or number of govt employees ?
...& no mention of how much of it was covid based.

[MDlaxfan76]

How does Biden's budget compare to Trump's last pre-covid budget ?

For 2022? Higher! Was I not clear on this point? If he claimed he didn't, as you say......as I wrote in the last post, Biden is lying.

Does this help you to acknowledge that yes, Trump increased spending and the size of Government while in office? Or are you just going to keep asking me questions, and not acknowledge these things?

What Biden did doesn't change what Trump did.

I never denied what Trump did. I did not engage. I let you rant on, unchallenged.

¥es. You did.

...covid relief = making govt bigger.

Not my fault you chose to mock and imply, without spelling it out. You don't get to be snarky, and then turn around and say "I didn't say those exact words", sorry. Either be civil, and use your words, or don't.

You claimed Trump made govt 66% bigger, with no specifics on what that means.
Are you referring to just budget size, actual spending, or number of govt employees ?
...& no mention of how much of it was covid based.

The citation I provided was pre 2020, 61% increase in deficit.

[a fan]

You claimed Trump made govt 66% bigger, with no specifics on what that means.
Are you referring to just budget size, actual spending, or number of govt employees ?
...& no mention of how much of it was covid based.

Government size is always expressed in dollars.

Know why? Because corrupt politicians do things like cut government employees on one side or the ledger that cost $1 million....and then hire out private contracts to do the same job for $1.5 million. And then claim "I cut government employees, I'm amazing".

Always in dollars.

It doesn't matter WHY the money was spent. There's always a reason, OS. 9/11. 08 bailouts. Iraq War. Covid. Makes no difference why.

[old salt]

All the current debate about F-16's for Ukraine makes my head want to explode.
There's no way F-16's can be deployed soon enough to impact this year's fighting.
For the longer term, Ukraine does not have the necessary military infrastructure (human or physical)
& won't have it until well into the postwar rebuilding period.
imho, the Saab Gripen * is the only western fighter that Ukrainians could operate in the near term, thanks to it's ability to operate from short, rough runways. Maybe someday the STVOL F-35B being operated by the Brits & our Marines.
Ukraine's proximity to Russia will never change. They need hardened aviation facilities & aircraft shelters, the ability to operate from dispersed, austere runways & the air defense systems necessary to protect their air bases. Otherwise, the Ukrainians will burn through their fighter aircraft inventory as rapidly as they're expending their allies' howitzer barrels & shells.
The EU should make the deal with Sweden, & provide the necessary guarantees, to increase Gripen production now.
EU/NATO members could use them if Ukraine collapses (which is unlikely).

* https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2021/ ... ssons.html

Assuming you are correct about Ukraine's physical infrastructure needs and the inability to deploy F-16s from current infrastructure, and the potential for this particular plane in the meantime, certainly makes sense to move as much to them as possible, as fast as possible...perhaps with backfill to any NATO donor countries with F-16's for whom that makes sense.

But how different are the requirements for MiG-29s, Su-24s, Su-25s and Su-27's?
Those are all flown from Ukraine currently.

Don't need the same runways?

The Brits and French also have jets they appear willing to contribute.

Apparently our military believes that air defense systems and artillery are much more urgently needed given massing of fixed wing aircraft by Russia in preparation for their impending major push.

Seems to me that longer striking missiles and drones would not have the issues you describe for the F-16's...so prioritize those as well?

Critical that Ukraine can strike deeply within the Russian occupied areas and nearby bases, command and control, etc. Precision is the West's advantage, gotta leverage that as much as possible.

Unlike most western fighters, Soviet legacy fighters are designed to operate from shorter, austere runways.

https://breakingdefense.com/2023/02/a-c ... th-moscow/

Su-27's too?

BTW, I'm fine with getting Ukraine the best, most appropriate striking force that they can actually use effectively to win the war and push Russia out.

That needn't be F-156's...seems to me that the longer range missiles and more drones would be appropriate, with as many appropriate fighter planes from our allies as they can find, with F-16's to backfill the allies' needs.

Su-27's also have good short field, austere runway performance compared to western fighters, but not as good as Mig-29's.

The only realistic option is Mig-29's from Poland & Slovakia, with F-16 backfill from USAF & EU/NATO allies.

https://www.politico.eu/article/mateusz ... ussia-war/
https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-ato/36 ... -duda.html
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/sl ... 023-02-10/

[get it to x]

You're the party of big government

Trump made the government 66% bigger in four years. Four years. That's insane. Did you complain? Did the Tea Party reassemble, and march?

As for your freeloader comment...how do you think the lights are on in rural America right now. It's not local and State spending. It's Federal.

That's why your party makes the Federal government larger every chance they get. They cannot survive without all that borrowed money....given away freely.

Obama cut spending two years in a row with the sequester. Republicans screamed bloody murder about it, if you'll recall. "Hollowed out military" and other charges.

I've said this many times: the last Republican that cut spending from one year to another was Eisenhower. So where'd you get the idea that the Republican Party was the party of small government?

some guy on the internet

Do you see this coming from a Dem? You have a better chance of being attacked by a Grizzly Bear and a Polar Bear on the same day than you do a Democrat reducing the federal workforce.

https://massie.house.gov/news/documents ... tID=395319

We need more people like Massie. MIT Doctorate, lives off the grid at home, reluctant congressman. BTW, he knew what was going on with natural immunity in June of 2021.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf4qAwntlkw

I took a little look at Massie's background and positions to get a better handle on what might have attracted you...fascinating record in congress.

One of 3 'no' votes against Stolen Valor Act??? What the heck?
John Birch Society?

Wants to abolish the EPA and Dept of Education...

Real piece of work..

votes against condemnation of North Korea, China and Iran on human rights...

sole member to vote against medals for officers who defended the Capitol on Jan 6

voted against making lynching a hate crime

climate change denier

wants to reduce legal immigration, that's right legal immigration...

And, obtw, voted for the deficit spending and tax cuts under Trump...but against funding support for Israel's Iran Dome system...

But hey, I see what it might be, he's pro cannabis! yeah!

The guy's a nut job, but I was attracted to the initial part of his education and early career, because I know a little about the VC industry in New England, something about sensor technologies as well, and thought it interesting that he had a patent and is credited for starting a company, SenSable Technologies, with his wife that later attracted $32 million in VC money when it reincorporated with a serious CEO...company was eventually sold for a couple million, though.
https://xconomy.com/boston/2012/05/17/f ... sie-story/

Guy likes his guns too.

On thread topic, he was also the only member of Congress to vote against an act refusing to recognize Russia's illegal annexation of Crimea...all sorts of Putin support...

It’s really disturbing that we have a Massie supporter posting on this forum.

DocBarrister

It's disturbing that anyone supports Massie, anywhere, but they do...but it certainly tells us where get it to X's head is at...

One of my closest and oldest friends, recently deceased from cancer, used to joke, as an African American, that he appreciated those who proudly flew their Confederate flags on their houses or in their pick up truck...made it easier to know who they are...

So, I appreciate get it to X telling us who he is...though he hides who he's voted for in the past...

Voted for Carter and Clinton in '96. Otherwise Republicans, and if Trump is the nominee I will vote for him again. Satisfied?

Interesting; was it being southern guys that attracted you to Carter and Clinton?
Against Reagan and against Dole...
I didn't vote for either Carter or Clinton, but then I'm actually a lifelong Republican.

Supporting Trump despite the election denialism, admiring a guy like Massie...where'd you go so far off the rails?

What does Southern have to do with anything? I grew up on the wrong side of the tracks in Towson. I'm with Trump on states that he lost that changed the rules without using the legislature to do so. I like following the rules. You apparently like ignoring them for political expediency.

Carter beat Gerald Ford FYI.

You like following the rules???
Is that what Trump claimed happened, the "rules" weren't followed???

hmmm, seems to me that Trump claimed he'd actually won the states and he and his goons tried to have phony electors get counted...falsely...follow the rules???

Seriously, when did you go so far off the rails politically that you'd support Trump even after Jan 6, all the lies, all the corruption? And Massie?? Do you like Greene too? There are SO many bozos in the GOP House right now...

I'm from within 10 miles of you, and yeah a lotta wanna be southerners in our neck of the woods.

Ahh, you voted against Ford?

Or did you actually like Carter?
I didn't turn 18 in '76 until November 20, too late for that cycle, but I'd have voted for Ford.
Pretty disgusted by what had gone down with Watergate, and Vietnam for that matter, but Ford felt like a reasonable choice.

No wonder we get along so well. I was born on the 19th.

I voted for Carter because like many 19 year old men I was more liberal than I am now. Looking back on it I would still have voted for Carter. Ford got in when Nixon and Agnew were basically ousted by the intelligence community in a soft coup. Yes, Nixon was flawed and paranoid, and that was his undoing. In reality, it was Mark Felt's revenge for being passed over for FBI Director in favor of L. Patrick Gray. Ford had strong ties to the intel community as a congressman.

As far as who I like in the house, my favorite is Hank Johnson, who thought Guam might tip over due to all of the military personnel we have there.

A close second is Maxine Waters. In the clip below from 2019 (starting at 1:30) she grills "Big Bankers" on student loans even though the federal government largely took them over in 2010.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_ByD_UVZmk

Yes, they both happen to be black. Racism inference in 3...2...1...

Betting you live in a mostly white neighborhood (Hereford, Glyndon). Ours is probably less than 50% white. We all manage to get along. You're welcome to visit, just don't tell them I am a "closet racist".

[MDlaxfan76]

10 miles west of you, Greenspring Valley.
Early years Homeland, moved out to Greenspring Valley in middle school.
Pop made his own money, had grown up in an urban apt with an alcoholic dad.

Hanover 4, Boston 10 years, predominantly black neighborhood, though transitional, then back close to where I grew up.

How white was your high school? Catholic School? Public?
I didn't suggest "closet racist" did I? or does that what "southern" imply to you?

"soft coup"

yes, the Dems have some doozies themselves, but nothing remotely akin to what's disgustingly happened with the GOP.

My House member is Jon Sarbanes. You won't find him making a mistake like Waters.
As Dems go, I'm happy to support him.

[get it to x]

10 miles west of you, Greenspring Valley.
Early years Homeland, moved out to Greenspring Valley in middle school.
Pop made his own money, had grown up in an urban apt with an alcoholic dad.

Hanover 4, Boston 10 years, predominantly black neighborhood, though transitional, then back close to where I grew up.

How white was your high school? Catholic School? Public?
I didn't suggest "closet racist" did I? or does that what "southern" imply to you?

"soft coup"

yes, the Dems have some doozies themselves, but nothing remotely akin to what's disgustingly happened with the GOP.

My House member is Jon Sarbanes. You won't find him making a mistake like Waters.
As Dems go, I'm happy to support him.

Sarbanes. We used to call his father "The Stealth Senator" because you never heard from him until it was money time.

I started at Towson High, which was racially mixed, then to Loch Raven when it opened in 1972. We had a few minority students. Mostly a mix of white and Asian kids from Towson, Dulaney and Parkville high schools. Actually got accepted to Gilman but a divorce got in the way. Worked out though, because some of my best friends to this day are from high school. Same with my wife. We just had five ladies visit Greenville who went to NDP with her. They might have been blowing smoke, but they all said it's nicer here by a wide margin.

[MDlaxfan76]

10 miles west of you, Greenspring Valley.
Early years Homeland, moved out to Greenspring Valley in middle school.
Pop made his own money, had grown up in an urban apt with an alcoholic dad.

Hanover 4, Boston 10 years, predominantly black neighborhood, though transitional, then back close to where I grew up.

How white was your high school? Catholic School? Public?
I didn't suggest "closet racist" did I? or does that what "southern" imply to you?

"soft coup"

yes, the Dems have some doozies themselves, but nothing remotely akin to what's disgustingly happened with the GOP.

My House member is Jon Sarbanes. You won't find him making a mistake like Waters.
As Dems go, I'm happy to support him.

Sarbanes. We used to call his father "The Stealth Senator" because you never heard from him until it was money time.

I started at Towson High, which was racially mixed, then to Loch Raven when it opened in 1972. We had a few minority students. Mostly a mix of white and Asian kids from Towson, Dulaney and Parkville high schools. Actually got accepted to Gilman but a divorce got in the way. Worked out though, because some of my best friends to this day are from high school. Same with my wife. We just had five ladies visit Greenville who went to NDP with her. They might have been blowing smoke, but they all said it's nicer here by a wide margin.

Greenville is indeed very nice. Enjoy!
Dated my share of NDP girls, class of '77. Fun bunch.
Would you have been in class of '74, '75 or '76 at Gilman?
Big group of very close pals from my class of '76. Several from your neck of the woods growing up.
The class of '75 very tight bunch too.

Jon Sarbanes is not so 'quiet', as he has constant, at least monthly, town meetings, call-in etc. Very accessible. I happened to have been on a board with him as well. But you don't see him grandstanding on TV, that's for sure.

His dad had a reputation as one of the smartest, most serious Senators of his day.
Nitty gritty work of governing sort of guy, not a grandstander.

I obviously much prefer that sort of politician...regardless of party.

[Kismet]

I voted for Carter because like many 19 year old men I was more liberal than I am now. Looking back on it I would still have voted for Carter. Ford got in when Nixon and Agnew were basically ousted by the intelligence community in a soft coup. Yes, Nixon was flawed and paranoid, and that was his undoing. In reality, it was Mark Felt's revenge for being passed over for FBI Director in favor of L. Patrick Gray. Ford had strong ties to the intel community as a congressman.

Nixon taped himself committing the crimes that got him - his own people and other Republicans concurred - no help needed from the Deep State.

Gerald Ford rightfully got shown the door for pardoning him.

[MDlaxfan76]

I voted for Carter because like many 19 year old men I was more liberal than I am now. Looking back on it I would still have voted for Carter. Ford got in when Nixon and Agnew were basically ousted by the intelligence community in a soft coup. Yes, Nixon was flawed and paranoid, and that was his undoing. In reality, it was Mark Felt's revenge for being passed over for FBI Director in favor of L. Patrick Gray. Ford had strong ties to the intel community as a congressman.

Nixon taped himself committing the crimes that got him - no help needed from the Deep State.

Gerald Ford rightfully got shown the door for pardoning him.

I think we could debate the latter point's "rightfully" but it indeed worked against him.

I think there was also a general rejection of the corruption that more and more people realized had been long festering in the Nixon White House...and Carter wasn't a McGovern.

I think it's important to remember, albeit wistfully, that the GOP leadership actually pushed Nixon to resign and go without further turmoil and divisiveness; in that context, the pardon was intended for the country to move on from that era, peacefully.

And yes, the tapes were the final straw of embarrassment, proving the corruption beyond a doubt.

I'm cool with that...also cool with voters needing to give the other party a chance at the White House.

[PizzaSnake]

I voted for Carter because like many 19 year old men I was more liberal than I am now. Looking back on it I would still have voted for Carter. Ford got in when Nixon and Agnew were basically ousted by the intelligence community in a soft coup. Yes, Nixon was flawed and paranoid, and that was his undoing. In reality, it was Mark Felt's revenge for being passed over for FBI Director in favor of L. Patrick Gray. Ford had strong ties to the intel community as a congressman.

Nixon taped himself committing the crimes that got him - no help needed from the Deep State.

Gerald Ford rightfully got shown the door for pardoning him.

I think we could debate the latter point's "rightfully" but it indeed worked against him.

I think there was also a general rejection of the corruption that more and more people realized had been long festering in the Nixon White House...and Carter wasn't a McGovern.

I think it's important to remember, albeit wistfully, that the GOP leadership actually pushed Nixon to resign and go without further turmoil and divisiveness; in that context, the pardon was intended for the country to move on from that era, peacefully.

And yes, the tapes were the final straw of embarrassment, proving the corruption beyond a doubt.

I'm cool with that...also cool with voters needing to give the other party a chance at the White House.

And this is the heart of the matter. Why party loyalty? Why the other? Speaking of founding father's intent, they were opposed to "parties" and allegiance to same.

We should all stop being lazy, learn about our candidates as they rise through the ranks (maybe through our own efforts, maybe by supporting the press -- local most important) and vote for the ones whose views and actions indicate closest alignment with ours. And those with no political track record who seek to bypass the process and jump to the top should be viewed with a prevailing and piercing suspicion (looking at you, tRump). Entrusting people with your future is risky. Why engage with fools and serial failures (financially, morally, ethically) like tRump? Just because the tell you what they think you want to hear? "How fcuking stupid are Americans," he asks rhetorically.

Instead, we are lazy and indifferent and vote on slogans and social media nostrums (used to be bumper stickers but now we have the Interboob).

I might quote Mencken too often for some, but this one is trenchant and applicable today:

“Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard.”

― H.L. Mencken

And oh how we have been getting it hard.

[DocBarrister]

I voted for Carter because like many 19 year old men I was more liberal than I am now. Looking back on it I would still have voted for Carter. Ford got in when Nixon and Agnew were basically ousted by the intelligence community in a soft coup. Yes, Nixon was flawed and paranoid, and that was his undoing. In reality, it was Mark Felt's revenge for being passed over for FBI Director in favor of L. Patrick Gray. Ford had strong ties to the intel community as a congressman.

Nixon taped himself committing the crimes that got him - his own people and other Republicans concurred - no help needed from the Deep State.

Gerald Ford rightfully got shown the door for pardoning him.

The “soft coup” was Nixon getting caught on tape ordering the CIA to obstruct an FBI investigation of his administration. Yes, minor league stuff compared to the treasonous crimes of Donald Trump, but Nixon was among the most corrupt presidents in American history.

https://www.nytimes.com/1974/08/06/arch ... -this.html

As seen in the article below, Nixon never fully understood that “the ask” itself was the unforgivable crime.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html

DocBarrister

[DocBarrister]

I voted for Carter because like many 19 year old men I was more liberal than I am now. Looking back on it I would still have voted for Carter. Ford got in when Nixon and Agnew were basically ousted by the intelligence community in a soft coup. Yes, Nixon was flawed and paranoid, and that was his undoing. In reality, it was Mark Felt's revenge for being passed over for FBI Director in favor of L. Patrick Gray. Ford had strong ties to the intel community as a congressman.

Nixon taped himself committing the crimes that got him - no help needed from the Deep State.

Gerald Ford rightfully got shown the door for pardoning him.

I think we could debate the latter point's "rightfully" but it indeed worked against him.

I think there was also a general rejection of the corruption that more and more people realized had been long festering in the Nixon White House...and Carter wasn't a McGovern.

I think it's important to remember, albeit wistfully, that the GOP leadership actually pushed Nixon to resign and go without further turmoil and divisiveness; in that context, the pardon was intended for the country to move on from that era, peacefully.

And yes, the tapes were the final straw of embarrassment, proving the corruption beyond a doubt.

I'm cool with that...also cool with voters needing to give the other party a chance at the White House.

Congressional Republicans stuck with Nixon almost to the end, but hearing Nixon order obstruction on tape went one step too far. Seems almost quaint today.

Ford’s pardon of Nixon was defended by more than a few historians for decades. But then Trump came along and changed the perspective. Now many believe that Nixon serving time in prison might have prevented (or at least discouraged) much of the worst violations of law committed by Trump and his cronies.

DocBarrister

[SCLaxAttack]

I voted for Carter because like many 19 year old men I was more liberal than I am now. Looking back on it I would still have voted for Carter. Ford got in when Nixon and Agnew were basically ousted by the intelligence community in a soft coup. Yes, Nixon was flawed and paranoid, and that was his undoing. In reality, it was Mark Felt's revenge for being passed over for FBI Director in favor of L. Patrick Gray. Ford had strong ties to the intel community as a congressman.

Nixon taped himself committing the crimes that got him - no help needed from the Deep State.

Gerald Ford rightfully got shown the door for pardoning him.

I think we could debate the latter point's "rightfully" but it indeed worked against him.

I think there was also a general rejection of the corruption that more and more people realized had been long festering in the Nixon White House...and Carter wasn't a McGovern.

I think it's important to remember, albeit wistfully, that the GOP leadership actually pushed Nixon to resign and go without further turmoil and divisiveness; in that context, the pardon was intended for the country to move on from that era, peacefully.

And yes, the tapes were the final straw of embarrassment, proving the corruption beyond a doubt.

I'm cool with that...also cool with voters needing to give the other party a chance at the White House.

Congressional Republicans stuck with Nixon almost to the end, but hearing Nixon order obstruction on tape went one step too far. Seems almost quaint today.

Ford’s pardon of Nixon was defended by more than a few historians for decades. But then Trump came along and changed the perspective. Now many believe that Nixon serving time in prison might have prevented (or at least discouraged) much of the worst violations of law committed by Trump and his cronies.

DocBarrister

It might stop a more garden variety ne’er-do-well, but Trump’s a sociopath. He’s always operated under the guise that he’ll never get caught best case, or have attorneys slow roll things until you tire and go away.