Ron Desantis (The Desantis Doctrine)

[old salt]

So i'm going to conclude this discussion with my understanding that for STEM classes only, you don't want, for example, any discussion of the people behind science. Because if you do that, that's woke and brainwashing.

You're not wrong, btw. You can't discuss these things without discussing politics or things like anti-semitism, or racism. You're right. Yet I can't imagine teaching a STEM class without those things, but we all have opinions.

For the record, i'm all for telling kids in a STEM class, for example.....why all those brilliant scientists came to America in the 1930's from Europe. It's an important thing to learn, imho.

Talk about it in a social studies class, in the lesson on the holocaust, where it will reinforce the content, not distract from the topic under study -- E-mC2

So I don't put words into your mouth----you've complained about them doing that, too. You called "it" brainwashing, but aren't clear as to what "It" is.

Please clarify so I understand where you are here. For you: Is it ok to teach about these things in social studies?


Because I'm telling you...that's not the message that's getting out from DeSantis and Co. The message isn't "teach all you want about social issues, or slavery, or anything else, knock yourself out...just not in STEM". The message is "the lefties are brainwashing your kids, and we must stop them".

It's indoctrination, using every medium to influence children. Of course it's ok to teach it in social studies courses, in context, when (in this case) the holocaust or antisemitism are part of the approved lesson plan. You've latched onto a very benign example, while ignoring others cited such as BLM, police or housing demographics, which are distractions & diversions when teaching math.

Have you considered that those examples are more sophisticated approaches to statistical analysis than what was taught 50yrs ago, 60yrs ago if you left home in 1966. Literally a lifetime ago.

Yes. I've considered those examples. Some things don't change. The basics still need to be mastered first. Are literacy rates or math proficiency rates higher now than in 1966 ? Can people still do time-speed-distance-fuel consumption calculations in their head or do they rely on their gps & car's computer. Can they read a map, do dead reckoning navigation, maintain their sense of direction (N-S-E-W), do mind mapping, or maintain situational awareness ? In training & hiring pilots, I observed overall decline rather than improvement, over time. That's why I shocked pilot job applicants by asking to review their college transcripts. A Princeton grad was anxious to show me his, a Lehigh grad looked terrified & made excuses. I hired both. Their transcripts were predictive of their performance.

[Farfromgeneva]

So i'm going to conclude this discussion with my understanding that for STEM classes only, you don't want, for example, any discussion of the people behind science. Because if you do that, that's woke and brainwashing.

You're not wrong, btw. You can't discuss these things without discussing politics or things like anti-semitism, or racism. You're right. Yet I can't imagine teaching a STEM class without those things, but we all have opinions.

For the record, i'm all for telling kids in a STEM class, for example.....why all those brilliant scientists came to America in the 1930's from Europe. It's an important thing to learn, imho.

Talk about it in a social studies class, in the lesson on the holocaust, where it will reinforce the content, not distract from the topic under study -- E-mC2

So I don't put words into your mouth----you've complained about them doing that, too. You called "it" brainwashing, but aren't clear as to what "It" is.

Please clarify so I understand where you are here. For you: Is it ok to teach about these things in social studies?


Because I'm telling you...that's not the message that's getting out from DeSantis and Co. The message isn't "teach all you want about social issues, or slavery, or anything else, knock yourself out...just not in STEM". The message is "the lefties are brainwashing your kids, and we must stop them".

It's indoctrination, using every medium to influence children. Of course it's ok to teach it in social studies courses, in context, when (in this case) the holocaust or antisemitism are part of the approved lesson plan. You've latched onto a very benign example, while ignoring others cited such as BLM, police or housing demographics, which are distractions & diversions when teaching math.

Have you considered that those examples are more sophisticated approaches to statistical analysis than what was taught 50yrs ago, 60yrs ago if you left home in 1966. Literally a lifetime ago.

Yes. I've considered those examples. Some things don't change. The basics still need to be mastered first. Are literacy rates or math proficiency rates higher now than in 1966 ? Can people still do time-speed-distance-fuel consumption calculations in their head or do they rely on their gps & car's computer. Can they read a map, do dead reckoning navigation, maintain their sense of direction (N-S-E-W), do mind mapping, or maintain situational awareness ? In training & hiring pilots, I observed overall decline rather than improvement, over time. That's why I shocked pilot job applicants by asking to review their college transcripts. A Princeton grad was anxious to show me his, a Lehigh grad looked terrified & made excuses. I hired both. Their transcripts were predictive of their performance.

How is the data accumulated and what is the error rate let alone standard baseline today vs 1966? The questions you ask me are "kiddie math" or otherwise easy logic to solve so I can't speak to others anecdotally. My sense of direction comes largely from chucking maps in my teen years and then especially doing a series of bootleg low budget European and a few other regions of travel in my college and early post college years. You learn quick when you have little language skills in Germany, Belgium, Turkey how to get around when you have to wing it. If anything my problem has always been giving people too much credit and believing they're acumen when they lie or fake it to me so I'm no judge.

Princeton's average GPA floated up from like a 2.8 to a 3.4 from the late 70s to the 2000s I know from a study I read a decade ago so transcripts don't exactly prove your point, data has to be smoothed out for variances across methodology which you don't address in your example.

Hobart, a school that really embraces Liberal Arts, still has a elite subject matter expert in Plato (https://www.hws.edu/alum/hobart-medal/baer.aspx) and I had him for my freshman seminar so maybe I'm the wrong audience for you to debate this with. My double major was Econ and European Studies then I backfilled with an MBA and further have taken continuing Ed inside and outside my professional universe at GTown, NYU and Emory over the past 15yrs. If I could get these PhD track academics at Ga State to settle down and let me do a customized non PhD track masters in Econ for personal gain I would but that's been a 4yr fight with some stupid higher ed adminsitrators there when I'm trying to give them my money. Learning is a lifelong goal so maybe I'm not the right person for this discussion.

If you're suggesting the level of education was more sophisitcated 60yrs ago I'd push back hard on that. Really hard. I can cite numerous examples anecodtally of older generations not being as aware or strong intellectually but I'd be accused of ageism for making that a formal allegation of a cohort. Tech would freak out like a little girl to such suggestion but apparently it's easier to crap on younger generations without making a quantitaively analytical case?

[MDlaxfan76]

Observing my son's elementary and HS experiences, where we went to the same schools, I can say with certainty that though I had a first rate education the demands and expectations in my son's education were markedly higher.

In every subject area, the amount of homework, the sophistication of the expected analysis, the pace of work were all higher. Deeper analysis, less rote, more sophisticated exploration of the 'why' in each area, whether STEM or otherwise. Likewise, the encouragement of additional work, outside academic exposures, was higher...though something I did as well.

We also went to similar highly selective colleges. Again, the expectations were way higher on him throughout his course load than either his mother or I recall on us. Daughter of a commercial fisherman and school nurse, she had been valedictorian of her excellent public high school (Falmouth-Woods Hole) with lots of scientist families. She and our son were both Economics majors in college, so she could directly compare the coursework...his class work was hugely more demanding, more mathematical, much more sophisticated than what she'd had. Yes, I can do calculations in my head faster than he can, but I can't remotely hang with him on more sophisticated math...

Old foagies (and those with little interest in exploring beyond their limited experiences) have some difficulty appreciating the beneficial parts of various technological tools that enable students to spend much less time on rote memorization and much more time on actually understanding these tools and how to apply them to tougher and tougher problems, with greater comprehension of nuance.

[Farfromgeneva]

Observing my son's elementary and HS experiences, where we went to the same schools, I can say with certainty that though I had a first rate education the demands and expectations in my son's education were markedly higher.

In every subject area, the amount of homework, the sophistication of the expected analysis, the pace of work were all higher. Deeper analysis, less rote, more sophisticated exploration of the 'why' in each area, whether STEM or otherwise. Likewise, the encouragement of additional work, outside academic exposures, was higher...though something I did as well.

We also went to similar highly selective colleges. Again, the expectations were way higher on him throughout his course load than either his mother or I recall on us. Daughter of a commercial fisherman and school nurse, she had been valedictorian of her excellent public high school (Falmouth-Woods Hole) with lots of scientist families. She and our son were both Economics majors in college, so she could directly compare the coursework...his class work was hugely more demanding, more mathematical, much more sophisticated than what she'd had. Yes, I can do calculations in my head faster than he can, but I can't remotely hang with him on more sophisticated math...

Old foagies (and those with little interest in exploring beyond their limited experiences) have some difficulty appreciating the beneficial parts of various technological tools that enable students to spend much less time on rote memorization and much more time on actually understanding these tools and how to apply them to tougher and tougher problems, with greater comprehension of nuance.

I see it now in my sons GATE class (this one day a week program kids test into we had something in NY in the 80s but different name). I doubt most people talking about what education is today has any idea what’s actually happening at elementary, middle or high schools. The vast majority of these arguments are made by people afraid of a world passing them by that they increasing cal don’t understand and cant or won’t try to assimilate intergenerationally. See the clownshoe rolling in with the stupid fake inquiry and petty passive aggressive behavior labeling me without even knowing a thing.

Gate-https://www.gadoe.org/Curriculum-Instru ... ation.aspx)

Remember doing Odyssey of the Mind as a kid myself

https://www.atlantapublicschools.us/Page/21024

[old salt]

https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learnin ... th%20grade.

The National Assessment for Educational Progress announced historic declines in math for students in its main NAEP for 2022, with average scores dropping 5 points, to 236 out of 500, in 4th grade, and 8 points, to 274, in 8th grade.

NAEP, administered by the National Center for Education Statistics, takes a snapshot of progress every two years, but was delayed by the pandemic from 2021 to 2022. That makes this the comprehensive assessment’s first look at students’ math achievement since the pandemic began. The 2022 assessment looked at the progress of a representative sample of more than 116,000 4th graders and 111,000 8th graders in every state.

Here’s what you need to know.

1. There’s bad news for (nearly) everybody.
Nobody improved in math in 2022. I mean nobody: Students in grades 4 and 8, low-income and wealthier students, boys and girls, students in every racial or ethnic group, and students with and without disabilities, in every region of the country, all stayed flat or fell back.

Asian, Black, Hispanic, and white students all saw drops in average scores in 4th and 8th grades since 2019. Native American students lost some of their progress in 4th grade but held flat in 8th.

None of the states or large school districts that participate in NAEP’s Trial Urban District Assessment improved in math at either grade. Only students in Utah and students in the Department of Defense schools stayed steady in math at 8th grade in 2022, while 4th graders in 10 states (not including Utah) and the Department of Defense schools also showed no change since 2019.

Eighth graders in every kind of school—private Roman Catholic, charter, and traditional public schools—lost ground in math, as did 4th graders in both kinds of public schools. However, 4th graders in Catholic schools held steady at 246.

Charter schools saw the biggest declines in math: 4th graders in those schools declined 6 points, to 232, and 9 points, to 268, for 8th graders.

2. This shouldn’t be a surprise.
The results of the main NAEP come on the heels of similarly grim results from other major tests, detailing the ongoing fallout of pandemic disruptions to schooling and more than a decade of faltering academic progress.
Math scores have been falling off for years, particularly for those in the lowest 10 percent to 25 percent of students.

“Let’s be very clear here: The data prior to the pandemic did not reflect an education system that was on the right track. The pandemic simply made it worse. It took poor performance and dropped it down even further,” said U.S. Secretary of Education Miguel Cardona, speaking in a briefing with reporters on the NAEP results. “As an educator and as a parent, that’s heartbreaking and it’s horrible. It’s an urgent call to action.”

3. There are more students now with severe needs in math.
Only 37 percent of 4th graders and 27 percent of 8th graders are proficient in math—meaning they are considered capable of handling challenging academic work—representing significant declines in both the number of proficient and advanced students in both grades. The share of advanced-level students fell from 9 percent to 8 percent in 4th grade and from 10 percent to 7 percent in 8th grade.

By contrast, 38 percent of 8th graders and a quarter of 4th graders cannot meet NAEP’s lowest benchmark—the basic level. More than half of students in poverty as well as Black, Hispanic, and Native American students in grade 8 performed below the basic level in 2022, along with more than a quarter of white students. In 4th grade, more than 40 percent of Black and Native American students, more than a third of Hispanic students, and 14 percent of white students performed at that lowest level in math.

What does that mean for students? In 4th grade, fewer than 3 out of 5 students now can tell whether whole numbers are even or odd—down from 67 percent before the pandemic. Only 51 percent understand that subtraction is the inverse of addition, and just over 1 in 10 4th graders can identify numbers that can divide into another number without a remainder.

Among 8th graders, only 44 percent can solve a problem using division, down from half in 2019, and only 1 in 5 can use an interactive tool to plot a point on a number line.

Fewer 8th graders said they had a lot of confidence in their math ability, and fewer took Algebra 1 in 8th grade, compared to 2019. And 13 percent of 8th graders attend schools where more than a fifth of students are taking multiple remedial math classes.

“Eighth grade is that gateway to more advanced mathematical course-taking,” said Peggy Carr, NCES commissioner. “This is what these students are missing. They’re missing important skills that will prepare them eventually for [science, technology, engineering, and math] careers. We need to be concerned about getting these students back on track so that they can be prepared for global competition in these areas.”

[Farfromgeneva]

https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learnin ... th%20grade.

The National Assessment for Educational Progress announced historic declines in math for students in its main NAEP for 2022, with average scores dropping 5 points, to 236 out of 500, in 4th grade, and 8 points, to 274, in 8th grade.

NAEP, administered by the National Center for Education Statistics, takes a snapshot of progress every two years, but was delayed by the pandemic from 2021 to 2022. That makes this the comprehensive assessment’s first look at students’ math achievement since the pandemic began. The 2022 assessment looked at the progress of a representative sample of more than 116,000 4th graders and 111,000 8th graders in every state.

Here’s what you need to know.

1. There’s bad news for (nearly) everybody.
Nobody improved in math in 2022. I mean nobody: Students in grades 4 and 8, low-income and wealthier students, boys and girls, students in every racial or ethnic group, and students with and without disabilities, in every region of the country, all stayed flat or fell back.

Asian, Black, Hispanic, and white students all saw drops in average scores in 4th and 8th grades since 2019. Native American students lost some of their progress in 4th grade but held flat in 8th.

None of the states or large school districts that participate in NAEP’s Trial Urban District Assessment improved in math at either grade. Only students in Utah and students in the Department of Defense schools stayed steady in math at 8th grade in 2022, while 4th graders in 10 states (not including Utah) and the Department of Defense schools also showed no change since 2019.

Eighth graders in every kind of school—private Roman Catholic, charter, and traditional public schools—lost ground in math, as did 4th graders in both kinds of public schools. However, 4th graders in Catholic schools held steady at 246.

Charter schools saw the biggest declines in math: 4th graders in those schools declined 6 points, to 232, and 9 points, to 268, for 8th graders.

2. This shouldn’t be a surprise.
The results of the main NAEP come on the heels of similarly grim results from other major tests, detailing the ongoing fallout of pandemic disruptions to schooling and more than a decade of faltering academic progress.
Math scores have been falling off for years, particularly for those in the lowest 10 percent to 25 percent of students.

“Let’s be very clear here: The data prior to the pandemic did not reflect an education system that was on the right track. The pandemic simply made it worse. It took poor performance and dropped it down even further,” said U.S. Secretary of Education Miguel Cardona, speaking in a briefing with reporters on the NAEP results. “As an educator and as a parent, that’s heartbreaking and it’s horrible. It’s an urgent call to action.”

3. There are more students now with severe needs in math.
Only 37 percent of 4th graders and 27 percent of 8th graders are proficient in math—meaning they are considered capable of handling challenging academic work—representing significant declines in both the number of proficient and advanced students in both grades. The share of advanced-level students fell from 9 percent to 8 percent in 4th grade and from 10 percent to 7 percent in 8th grade.

By contrast, 38 percent of 8th graders and a quarter of 4th graders cannot meet NAEP’s lowest benchmark—the basic level. More than half of students in poverty as well as Black, Hispanic, and Native American students in grade 8 performed below the basic level in 2022, along with more than a quarter of white students. In 4th grade, more than 40 percent of Black and Native American students, more than a third of Hispanic students, and 14 percent of white students performed at that lowest level in math.

What does that mean for students? In 4th grade, fewer than 3 out of 5 students now can tell whether whole numbers are even or odd—down from 67 percent before the pandemic. Only 51 percent understand that subtraction is the inverse of addition, and just over 1 in 10 4th graders can identify numbers that can divide into another number without a remainder.

Among 8th graders, only 44 percent can solve a problem using division, down from half in 2019, and only 1 in 5 can use an interactive tool to plot a point on a number line.

Fewer 8th graders said they had a lot of confidence in their math ability, and fewer took Algebra 1 in 8th grade, compared to 2019. And 13 percent of 8th graders attend schools where more than a fifth of students are taking multiple remedial math classes.

“Eighth grade is that gateway to more advanced mathematical course-taking,” said Peggy Carr, NCES commissioner. “This is what these students are missing. They’re missing important skills that will prepare them eventually for [science, technology, engineering, and math] careers. We need to be concerned about getting these students back on track so that they can be prepared for global competition in these areas.”

Draw the line between this and your whole arguments. This in isolation does nothing to support your arguments. Simply tying one to another without any actual analysis to support your claims. Merely starting with a hypothesis and backfilling it by selective searching doesn’t mean your argument is correct in any way shape or form.

[a fan]

It's indoctrination, using every medium to influence children.Well, we've discussed this part before. We 100% indoctrinated children in your K-12, you just didn't notice. Reinforcing mainstream values in every subject. No one complained. Did you have school dances? Were boys allowed to dance with boys? No, right? Well----there you go. Indoctrination. But no one complained. Of course it's ok to teach it in social studies courses, in context, when (in this case) the holocaust or antisemitism are part of the approved lesson plan.Ok, but you're not holding your view steady. If you're telling me that the only problem you have is putting social issues into STEM, that's something that's easily changed. That's not the only argument that DeSantis and others are making. They have more complaints. BTW, they crossover subjects in modern schools----no matter how liberal or conservative------as a part of modern education. JHU72 touched on this. When you do that, you're teaching multiple lessons at once, and deepening a student's understanding of all the subjects as they make connections between them. You've latched onto a very benign example, while ignoring others cited such as BLM, police or housing demographics, which are distractions & diversions when teaching math.

That's fine, but what you're not seeing is that DeSantis is only looking for things the his proctors don't like, leaving other indoctrinations in those books. They aren't removing all cultural crossovers in STEM classes, which is what YOU are asking for. He's not doing what you're asking, in short. So you should be just as angry at DeSantis' changes as his predecessors. He's not "sticking to the science" in STEM instruction. He's cleaning it of liberal references...which to my mind makes matters worse.

[a fan]

https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learnin ... th%20grade.

The National Assessment for Educational Progress announced historic declines in math for students in its main NAEP for 2022, with average scores dropping 5 points, to 236 out of 500, in 4th grade, and 8 points, to 274, in 8th grade.

NAEP, administered by the National Center for Education Statistics, takes a snapshot of progress every two years, but was delayed by the pandemic from 2021 to 2022. That makes this the comprehensive assessment’s first look at students’ math achievement since the pandemic began. The 2022 assessment looked at the progress of a representative sample of more than 116,000 4th graders and 111,000 8th graders in every state.

Here’s what you need to know.

1. There’s bad news for (nearly) everybody.
Nobody improved in math in 2022. I mean nobody: Students in grades 4 and 8, low-income and wealthier students, boys and girls, students in every racial or ethnic group, and students with and without disabilities, in every region of the country, all stayed flat or fell back.

Asian, Black, Hispanic, and white students all saw drops in average scores in 4th and 8th grades since 2019. Native American students lost some of their progress in 4th grade but held flat in 8th.

None of the states or large school districts that participate in NAEP’s Trial Urban District Assessment improved in math at either grade. Only students in Utah and students in the Department of Defense schools stayed steady in math at 8th grade in 2022, while 4th graders in 10 states (not including Utah) and the Department of Defense schools also showed no change since 2019.

Eighth graders in every kind of school—private Roman Catholic, charter, and traditional public schools—lost ground in math, as did 4th graders in both kinds of public schools. However, 4th graders in Catholic schools held steady at 246.

Charter schools saw the biggest declines in math: 4th graders in those schools declined 6 points, to 232, and 9 points, to 268, for 8th graders.

2. This shouldn’t be a surprise.
The results of the main NAEP come on the heels of similarly grim results from other major tests, detailing the ongoing fallout of pandemic disruptions to schooling and more than a decade of faltering academic progress.
Math scores have been falling off for years, particularly for those in the lowest 10 percent to 25 percent of students.

“Let’s be very clear here: The data prior to the pandemic did not reflect an education system that was on the right track. The pandemic simply made it worse. It took poor performance and dropped it down even further,” said U.S. Secretary of Education Miguel Cardona, speaking in a briefing with reporters on the NAEP results. “As an educator and as a parent, that’s heartbreaking and it’s horrible. It’s an urgent call to action.”

3. There are more students now with severe needs in math.
Only 37 percent of 4th graders and 27 percent of 8th graders are proficient in math—meaning they are considered capable of handling challenging academic work—representing significant declines in both the number of proficient and advanced students in both grades. The share of advanced-level students fell from 9 percent to 8 percent in 4th grade and from 10 percent to 7 percent in 8th grade.

By contrast, 38 percent of 8th graders and a quarter of 4th graders cannot meet NAEP’s lowest benchmark—the basic level. More than half of students in poverty as well as Black, Hispanic, and Native American students in grade 8 performed below the basic level in 2022, along with more than a quarter of white students. In 4th grade, more than 40 percent of Black and Native American students, more than a third of Hispanic students, and 14 percent of white students performed at that lowest level in math.

What does that mean for students? In 4th grade, fewer than 3 out of 5 students now can tell whether whole numbers are even or odd—down from 67 percent before the pandemic. Only 51 percent understand that subtraction is the inverse of addition, and just over 1 in 10 4th graders can identify numbers that can divide into another number without a remainder.

Among 8th graders, only 44 percent can solve a problem using division, down from half in 2019, and only 1 in 5 can use an interactive tool to plot a point on a number line.

Fewer 8th graders said they had a lot of confidence in their math ability, and fewer took Algebra 1 in 8th grade, compared to 2019. And 13 percent of 8th graders attend schools where more than a fifth of students are taking multiple remedial math classes.

“Eighth grade is that gateway to more advanced mathematical course-taking,” said Peggy Carr, NCES commissioner. “This is what these students are missing. They’re missing important skills that will prepare them eventually for [science, technology, engineering, and math] careers. We need to be concerned about getting these students back on track so that they can be prepared for global competition in these areas.”

This is great. But you realize that this has nothing to do with the previous discussion on woke, right? The above is simply sorting through the debris of Covid. It had a devastating effect.

And you just destroyed your party's preferred solution---Charter Schools, aka "school choice".

We all agree that American education has fallen apart in the last 40 years. My public school K-12 experience was a joke, as was my brother, even after skipping grades. You make more money bagging groceries than you do teaching in Colorado....so it's little wonder.

What's the solution?

[Typical Lax Dad]

OS knows why we have fallen behind…..

Tower of Babel stuff kind of stuff….

[Typical Lax Dad]

This all comes down to people not wanting what they teach at home to be undone.

[old salt]

https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learnin ... th%20grade.

The National Assessment for Educational Progress announced historic declines in math

more than a decade of faltering academic progress.
Math scores have been falling off for years, particularly for those in the lowest 10 percent to 25 percent of students.

The pandemic simply made it worse. It took poor performance and dropped it down even further,” said U.S. Secretary of Education Miguel Cardona,

...these students back on track so that they can be prepared for global competition in these areas.”

This is great. But you realize that this has nothing to do with the previous discussion on woke, right? The above is simply sorting through the debris of Covid. It had a devastating effect.

What's the solution?

It has everything to do with the previous discussion which showed woke indoctrination embedded in math questions.

Covid's no excuse. The decline preceded covid (see above)

The solution -- stick to basics, repetition, homework, no social promotions.

[old salt]

Old foagies (and those with little interest in exploring beyond their limited experiences) have some difficulty appreciating the beneficial parts of various technological tools that enable students to spend much less time on rote memorization and much more time on actually understanding these tools and how to apply them to tougher and tougher problems, with greater comprehension of nuance.

Do students need to still learn multiplication tables for 1-12 ?
The square/sq root of 1-12 ?
Lecture me on human performance in cockpit design.

[a fan]

https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learnin ... th%20grade.

The National Assessment for Educational Progress announced historic declines in math

more than a decade of faltering academic progress.
Math scores have been falling off for years, particularly for those in the lowest 10 percent to 25 percent of students.

The pandemic simply made it worse. It took poor performance and dropped it down even further,” said U.S. Secretary of Education Miguel Cardona,

...these students back on track so that they can be prepared for global competition in these areas.”

This is great. But you realize that this has nothing to do with the previous discussion on woke, right? The above is simply sorting through the debris of Covid. It had a devastating effect.

What's the solution?

It has everything to do with the previous discussion which showed woke indoctrination embedded in math questions.

Covid's no excuse. The decline preceded covid (see above)

The solution -- stick to basics, repetition, homework, no social promotions.

Ok...again, so I understand....you think that the decline started with "woke", which is just years old. Not even a decade. And you think if that's removed from math, test scores will soar in every subject?

From your citation: Eighth graders in every kind of school—private Roman Catholic, charter, and traditional public schools—lost ground in math,

Pretty sure they're not woke in Catholic Schools.

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learnin ... th%20grade.

The National Assessment for Educational Progress announced historic declines in math

more than a decade of faltering academic progress.
Math scores have been falling off for years, particularly for those in the lowest 10 percent to 25 percent of students.

The pandemic simply made it worse. It took poor performance and dropped it down even further,” said U.S. Secretary of Education Miguel Cardona,

...these students back on track so that they can be prepared for global competition in these areas.”

This is great. But you realize that this has nothing to do with the previous discussion on woke, right? The above is simply sorting through the debris of Covid. It had a devastating effect.

What's the solution?

It has everything to do with the previous discussion which showed woke indoctrination embedded in math questions.

Covid's no excuse. The decline preceded covid (see above)

The solution -- stick to basics, repetition, homework, no social promotions.

Ok...again, so I understand....you think that the decline started with "woke", which is just years old. Not even a decade. And you think if that's removed from math, test scores will soar in every subject?

From your citation: Eighth graders in every kind of school—private Roman Catholic, charter, and traditional public schools—lost ground in math,

Pretty sure they're not woke in Catholic Schools.

He meant the schools where black folk go….. Dragging the country down.

[old salt]

https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learnin ... th%20grade.

The National Assessment for Educational Progress announced historic declines in math

more than a decade of faltering academic progress.
Math scores have been falling off for years, particularly for those in the lowest 10 percent to 25 percent of students.

The pandemic simply made it worse. It took poor performance and dropped it down even further,” said U.S. Secretary of Education Miguel Cardona,

...these students back on track so that they can be prepared for global competition in these areas.”

This is great. But you realize that this has nothing to do with the previous discussion on woke, right? The above is simply sorting through the debris of Covid. It had a devastating effect.

What's the solution?

It has everything to do with the previous discussion which showed woke indoctrination embedded in math questions.

Covid's no excuse. The decline preceded covid (see above)

The solution -- stick to basics, repetition, homework, no social promotions.

Ok...again, so I understand....you think that the decline started with "woke", which is just years old. Not even a decade. And you think if that's removed from math, test scores will soar in every subject?
...there you go again. Where did I say that ? It has not helped. It's a needless distraction.

From your citation: Eighth graders in every kind of school—private Roman Catholic, charter, and traditional public schools—lost ground in math,

Pretty sure they're not woke in Catholic Schools.
"pretty sure" ? How do you know ? How many came through the same ED majors ? Use the same texts & teaching matl ? Most I knew were public school certified who couldn't find job openings where their spouse was stationed or left public schools because of the lack of discipline & quality of students & parental involvement.

[old salt]

https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learnin ... th%20grade.

The National Assessment for Educational Progress announced historic declines in math

more than a decade of faltering academic progress.
Math scores have been falling off for years, particularly for those in the lowest 10 percent to 25 percent of students.

The pandemic simply made it worse. It took poor performance and dropped it down even further,” said U.S. Secretary of Education Miguel Cardona,

...these students back on track so that they can be prepared for global competition in these areas.”

This is great. But you realize that this has nothing to do with the previous discussion on woke, right? The above is simply sorting through the debris of Covid. It had a devastating effect.

What's the solution?

It has everything to do with the previous discussion which showed woke indoctrination embedded in math questions.

Covid's no excuse. The decline preceded covid (see above)

The solution -- stick to basics, repetition, homework, no social promotions.

Ok...again, so I understand....you think that the decline started with "woke", which is just years old. Not even a decade. And you think if that's removed from math, test scores will soar in every subject?

From your citation: Eighth graders in every kind of school—private Roman Catholic, charter, and traditional public schools—lost ground in math,

Pretty sure they're not woke in Catholic Schools.

He meant the schools where black folk go….. Dragging the country down.

Liar (again). That was a quote. Not my words. "every kind of school" means all schools.

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learnin ... th%20grade.

The National Assessment for Educational Progress announced historic declines in math

more than a decade of faltering academic progress.
Math scores have been falling off for years, particularly for those in the lowest 10 percent to 25 percent of students.

The pandemic simply made it worse. It took poor performance and dropped it down even further,” said U.S. Secretary of Education Miguel Cardona,

...these students back on track so that they can be prepared for global competition in these areas.”

This is great. But you realize that this has nothing to do with the previous discussion on woke, right? The above is simply sorting through the debris of Covid. It had a devastating effect.

What's the solution?

It has everything to do with the previous discussion which showed woke indoctrination embedded in math questions.

Covid's no excuse. The decline preceded covid (see above)

The solution -- stick to basics, repetition, homework, no social promotions.

Ok...again, so I understand....you think that the decline started with "woke", which is just years old. Not even a decade. And you think if that's removed from math, test scores will soar in every subject?

From your citation: Eighth graders in every kind of school—private Roman Catholic, charter, and traditional public schools—lost ground in math,

Pretty sure they're not woke in Catholic Schools.

He meant the schools where black folk go….. Dragging the country down.

Liar (again). That was a quote. Not my words. "every kind of school" means all schools.

LOL.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Old foagies (and those with little interest in exploring beyond their limited experiences) have some difficulty appreciating the beneficial parts of various technological tools that enable students to spend much less time on rote memorization and much more time on actually understanding these tools and how to apply them to tougher and tougher problems, with greater comprehension of nuance.

Do students need to still learn multiplication tables for 1-12 ?
The square/sq root of 1-12 ?
Lecture me on human performance in cockpit design.

Old Man

[a fan]

https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learnin ... th%20grade.

The National Assessment for Educational Progress announced historic declines in math

more than a decade of faltering academic progress.
Math scores have been falling off for years, particularly for those in the lowest 10 percent to 25 percent of students.

The pandemic simply made it worse. It took poor performance and dropped it down even further,” said U.S. Secretary of Education Miguel Cardona,

...these students back on track so that they can be prepared for global competition in these areas.”

This is great. But you realize that this has nothing to do with the previous discussion on woke, right? The above is simply sorting through the debris of Covid. It had a devastating effect.

What's the solution?

It has everything to do with the previous discussion which showed woke indoctrination embedded in math questions.

Covid's no excuse. The decline preceded covid (see above)

The solution -- stick to basics, repetition, homework, no social promotions.

Ok...again, so I understand....you think that the decline started with "woke", which is just years old. Not even a decade. And you think if that's removed from math, test scores will soar in every subject?
...there you go again. Where did I say that ? It has not helped. It's a needless distraction.
No. There YOU go again. If you're going to play this game, YOU need to be held accountable for your own words. YOU said: THE solution. That's singular. As in: there is only one. Next time? Say what you mean, and write "ONE solution". Or don't complain because you didn't write what you were thinking. I'm not a mind reader, and you don't get to chirp poster for your inadequacies as a writer.

For me? I own up to being unclear all the time. Maybe you can give that a try?

From your citation: Eighth graders in every kind of school—private Roman Catholic, charter, and traditional public schools—lost ground in math,

Pretty sure they're not woke in Catholic Schools.
"pretty sure" ? How do you know ? How many came through the same ED majors ? Use the same texts & teaching matl ? Most I knew were public school certified who couldn't find job openings where their spouse was stationed or left public schools because of the lack of discipline & quality of students & parental involvement.

You think that Catholic schools don't pay any mind to curriculum or textbooks...no vetting? Are you serious? And further, for a guy who doesn't have kids, your posts are FILLED with assumptions about how schools work in 2023, where you take the word of some guy on the internet---and assume they're telling the whole story. And yet you think I'm the one who's making assumptions.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Let’s MAGA like OS wants:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/edu ... 835742002/


American students struggle in math.

The latest results of an international exam given to teenagers ranked the USA ninth in reading and 31st in math literacy out of 79 countries and economies. America has a smaller-than-average share of top-performing math students, and scores have essentially been flat for two decades.

One likely reason: U.S. high schools teach math differently than other countries.

Classes here often focus on formulas and procedures rather than teaching students to think creatively about solving complex problems involving all sorts of mathematics, experts said. That makes it harder for students to compete globally, be it on an international exam or in colleges and careers that value sophisticated thinking and data science.

Let’s do it like we did in the 1950s…..When America was great!