All Things Russia & Ukraine

[youthathletics]

By-the-by, know why SEALS have their current mission? 'Cause they were incompetent as divers. The deep-sea divers laughed at their efforts when they had to clean up after them.

Lowercase S at the end. EOD?

[old salt]

These people fought to dissolve the US of A. As an American that believes in that Constitution....I'm not cool with that.

The secessionists were convinced they were doing the same thing their parents had done in revolting against England just a few decades earlier. They still viewed the USA as a voluntary compact of independent states.
You interpret history from today's perspective. The Confederates did not expect to defeat the Union, they wanted to make it too costly to defeat them & hoped to force a compromise on the westward expansion of slavery. They did not count on Lincoln's ability to sustain support for the war & tolerate the casualties & carnage which Grant, Sherman & others wrought in achieving a military victory.

[Farfromgeneva]

We all know false equivalencies are the game!

[Typical Lax Dad]

These people fought to dissolve the US of A. As an American that believes in that Constitution....I'm not cool with that.

The secessionists were convinced they were doing the same thing their parents had done in revolting against England just a few decades earlier. They still viewed the USA as a voluntary compact of independent states.
You interpret history from today's perspective. The Confederates did not expect to defeat the Union, they wanted to make it too costly to defeat them & hoped to force a compromise on the westward expansion of slavery. They did not count on Lincoln's ability to sustain support for the war & tolerate the casualties & carnage which Grant, Sherman & others wrought in achieving a military victory.

[old salt]

obtw -- the Constitution allowed slavery. It was a compromise from the inception which enabled ratification of the Constitution, or there was no chance of 13 United States. Had there not been compromises on slavery, from the founding thru the Civil War, there is little chance that the USA would have been founded & evolved as it has. This is not to say slavery was a positive thing. We can't deny the impact it had on how the nation was founded & developed.

[PizzaSnake]

obtw -- the Constitution allowed slavery. It was a compromise from the inception which enabled ratification of the Constitution, or there was no chance of 13 United States. Had there not been compromises on slavery, from the founding thru the Civil War, there is little chance that the USA would have been founded & evolved as it has. This is not to say slavery was a positive thing. We can't deny the impact it had on how the nation was founded & developed.

Sound like yer ready to do some of that there CRT study... Better stay out of Floriduh or DeSatan'll git ya.

[a fan]

These people fought to dissolve the US of A. As an American that believes in that Constitution....I'm not cool with that.

The secessionists were convinced they were doing the same thing their parents had done in revolting against England just a few decades earlier. They still viewed the USA as a voluntary compact of independent states.
You interpret history from today's perspective. The Confederates did not expect to defeat the Union, they wanted to make it too costly to defeat them & hoped to force a compromise on the westward expansion of slavery. They did not count on Lincoln's ability to sustain support for the war & tolerate the casualties & carnage which Grant, Sherman & others wrought in achieving a military victory.

Of course I'm interpreting history from today's perspective. So are you. Or do you think you can somehow avoid doing that?

You are making wide generalizations from a 21st century perch, right in this very post. And doing the thing where you assume that the people fighting the war knew what their Generals knew. The reasons folks fight ANY war are all over the place. "For the guy in the foxhole next to me" is enough for more than a few soldiers since war was invented. Some wanted slavery to continue. Some wanted to protect their lands. There are as many reasons to fight as there were people. So telling me "they still viewed the USA as a voluntary compact"....SOME may have thought that, sure.

But again, even if that was the case...that means that they were fighting to keep slavery legal in their individual States. And fighting for a new Constitution that obviously didn't have the same rules that the Constitution did. I don't want to celebrate that, sorry. And if they had gotten the stalemate you're telling me that they sought from the beginning (I don't agree, but that's immaterial)....they get to keep slavery. I thought that it was pretty universally agreed that that was a bad outcome.

But at the very least, surely can understand why folks who had no say back in the early-mid 1900's when of these monuments were put up.....might not be all that fired up to have them around? I have no interest in celebrating the people who tried to take down America and enslave America, any more than I do celebrating WWII soldiers from Germany or Japan. Plenty of space in museums to preserve that history. But holy cow, i can think of thousands of Americans I'd rather celebrate that the folks who tried to destroy us, and take the Constitution away from half the doggone country.

[a fan]

obtw -- the Constitution allowed slavery. It was a compromise from the inception which enabled ratification of the Constitution, or there was no chance of 13 United States. Had there not been compromises on slavery, from the founding thru the Civil War, there is little chance that the USA would have been founded & evolved as it has. This is not to say slavery was a positive thing. We can't deny the impact it had on how the nation was founded & developed.

Sound like yer ready to do some of that there CRT study... Better stay out of Floriduh or DeSatan'll git ya.

Pizzasnake makes one heckuva point. Do you have a reply?

[a fan]

obtw -- the Constitution allowed slavery. It was a compromise from the inception which enabled ratification of the Constitution, or there was no chance of 13 United States. Had there not been compromises on slavery, from the founding thru the Civil War, there is little chance that the USA would have been founded & evolved as it has. This is not to say slavery was a positive thing. We can't deny the impact it had on how the nation was founded & developed.

I know all of this. Not sure why you think I wouldn't know this. But ok.

[old salt]

obtw -- the Constitution allowed slavery. It was a compromise from the inception which enabled ratification of the Constitution, or there was no chance of 13 United States. Had there not been compromises on slavery, from the founding thru the Civil War, there is little chance that the USA would have been founded & evolved as it has. This is not to say slavery was a positive thing. We can't deny the impact it had on how the nation was founded & developed.

Sound like yer ready to do some of that there CRT study... Better stay out of Floriduh or DeSatan'll git ya.

Pizzasnake makes one heckuva point. Do you have a reply?

I've always appreciated the impact of slavery on our nation's development -- economically, socially & culturally.
I realized that long before CRT. We had affirmative action & outreach to African-American recruits & service members from the time I began serving in the Navy. It continued & evolved as the program names changed.

[Typical Lax Dad]

obtw -- the Constitution allowed slavery. It was a compromise from the inception which enabled ratification of the Constitution, or there was no chance of 13 United States. Had there not been compromises on slavery, from the founding thru the Civil War, there is little chance that the USA would have been founded & evolved as it has. This is not to say slavery was a positive thing. We can't deny the impact it had on how the nation was founded & developed.

Sound like yer ready to do some of that there CRT study... Better stay out of Floriduh or DeSatan'll git ya.

Pizzasnake makes one heckuva point. Do you have a reply?

I've always appreciated the impact of slavery on our nation's development -- economically, socially & culturally.
I realized that long before CRT. We had affirmative action & outreach to African-American recruits & service members from the time I began serving in the Navy. It continued & evolved as the program names changed.

thanks for your service

[a fan]

obtw -- the Constitution allowed slavery. It was a compromise from the inception which enabled ratification of the Constitution, or there was no chance of 13 United States. Had there not been compromises on slavery, from the founding thru the Civil War, there is little chance that the USA would have been founded & evolved as it has. This is not to say slavery was a positive thing. We can't deny the impact it had on how the nation was founded & developed.

Sound like yer ready to do some of that there CRT study... Better stay out of Floriduh or DeSatan'll git ya.

Pizzasnake makes one heckuva point. Do you have a reply?

I've always appreciated the impact of slavery on our nation's development -- economically, socially & culturally.
I realized that long before CRT. We had affirmative action & outreach to African-American recruits & service members from the time I began serving in the Navy. It continued & evolved as the program names changed.

What I meant was: you've appeared in the past to be aligned with DeSantis with what you've called "woke" teaching.

To me, this "woke" you've chided in the past means things like doing just what you suggested: teaching kids about the impact of slavery (and its offshoots, racism, segregation, etc.) on our nation's development-----economically, socially, and culturally. Things that weren't taught when you and I were kids.

But here you appear to be all for teaching these things that you yourself have learned. Care to clarify?

[old salt]

obtw -- the Constitution allowed slavery. It was a compromise from the inception which enabled ratification of the Constitution, or there was no chance of 13 United States. Had there not been compromises on slavery, from the founding thru the Civil War, there is little chance that the USA would have been founded & evolved as it has. This is not to say slavery was a positive thing. We can't deny the impact it had on how the nation was founded & developed.

Sound like yer ready to do some of that there CRT study... Better stay out of Floriduh or DeSatan'll git ya.

Pizzasnake makes one heckuva point. Do you have a reply?

I've always appreciated the impact of slavery on our nation's development -- economically, socially & culturally.
I realized that long before CRT. We had affirmative action & outreach to African-American recruits & service members from the time I began serving in the Navy. It continued & evolved as the program names changed.

What I meant was: you've appeared in the past to be aligned with DeSantis with what you've called "woke" teaching.

To me, this "woke" you've chided in the past means things like doing just what you suggested: teaching kids about the impact of slavery (and its offshoots, racism, segregation, etc.) on our nation's development-----economically, socially, and culturally. Things that weren't taught when you and I were kids.

But here you appear to be all for teaching these things that you yourself have learned. Care to clarify?

I don't recall aligning with DeSantis or mentioning "woke" teaching.

No thanks. I'm not interested in following you down that bottomless rabbit hole.

[NattyBohChamps04]

Deleted

[old salt]

tank stuff

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2 ... c9f0ca3e1f

Crimea = Go/NoGo
More mixed messaging from Biden admin.
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/02/1 ... n-00083149

[NattyBohChamps04]

The constitution still allows slavery...

[a fan]

obtw -- the Constitution allowed slavery. It was a compromise from the inception which enabled ratification of the Constitution, or there was no chance of 13 United States. Had there not been compromises on slavery, from the founding thru the Civil War, there is little chance that the USA would have been founded & evolved as it has. This is not to say slavery was a positive thing. We can't deny the impact it had on how the nation was founded & developed.

Sound like yer ready to do some of that there CRT study... Better stay out of Floriduh or DeSatan'll git ya.

Pizzasnake makes one heckuva point. Do you have a reply?

I've always appreciated the impact of slavery on our nation's development -- economically, socially & culturally.
I realized that long before CRT. We had affirmative action & outreach to African-American recruits & service members from the time I began serving in the Navy. It continued & evolved as the program names changed.

What I meant was: you've appeared in the past to be aligned with DeSantis with what you've called "woke" teaching.

To me, this "woke" you've chided in the past means things like doing just what you suggested: teaching kids about the impact of slavery (and its offshoots, racism, segregation, etc.) on our nation's development-----economically, socially, and culturally. Things that weren't taught when you and I were kids.

But here you appear to be all for teaching these things that you yourself have learned. Care to clarify?

I don't recall aligning with DeSantis or mentioning "woke" teaching. You didn't in the same post. Or at least I don't think you did. You have indeed lashed out at "woke", and never really define what it is....because any time I ask you, I get the next line.

No thanks. I'm not interested in following you down that bottomless rabbit hole.

So i'm left guessing at what your definition is when you say "woke".

The point I'm making here is that you appear to align with what others would call woke when it comes to American teaching. To "appreciate the impact of slavery on our nation's development". That's what many people would call "woke"(and that's where DeSantis comes in, because he's pushing back on teaching what you just said in the quotation marks....and I was simply pointing out that from DeSantis and other's perspectives, you're being woke here.

Not looking for a fight, and turning down the vitriol as best I can. You don't have any comment? That's fine. Go back to tanks.

[old salt]

obtw -- the Constitution allowed slavery. It was a compromise from the inception which enabled ratification of the Constitution, or there was no chance of 13 United States. Had there not been compromises on slavery, from the founding thru the Civil War, there is little chance that the USA would have been founded & evolved as it has. This is not to say slavery was a positive thing. We can't deny the impact it had on how the nation was founded & developed.

Sound like yer ready to do some of that there CRT study... Better stay out of Floriduh or DeSatan'll git ya.

Pizzasnake makes one heckuva point. Do you have a reply?

I've always appreciated the impact of slavery on our nation's development -- economically, socially & culturally.
I realized that long before CRT. We had affirmative action & outreach to African-American recruits & service members from the time I began serving in the Navy. It continued & evolved as the program names changed.

What I meant was: you've appeared in the past to be aligned with DeSantis with what you've called "woke" teaching.

To me, this "woke" you've chided in the past means things like doing just what you suggested: teaching kids about the impact of slavery (and its offshoots, racism, segregation, etc.) on our nation's development-----economically, socially, and culturally. Things that weren't taught when you and I were kids.

But here you appear to be all for teaching these things that you yourself have learned. Care to clarify?

I don't recall aligning with DeSantis or mentioning "woke" teaching. You didn't in the same post. Or at least I don't think you did. You have indeed lashed out at "woke", and never really define what it is....because any time I ask you, I get the next line.

No thanks. I'm not interested in following you down that bottomless rabbit hole.

So i'm left guessing at what your definition is when you say "woke".

The point I'm making here is that you appear to align with what others would call woke when it comes to American teaching. To "appreciate the impact of slavery on our nation's development". That's what many people would call "woke"(and that's where DeSantis comes in, because he's pushing back on teaching what you just said in the quotation marks....and I was simply pointing out that from DeSantis and other's perspectives, you're being woke here.

Not looking for a fight, and turning down the vitriol as best I can. You don't have any comment? That's fine. Go back to tanks.

Man. You really miss having Petey to argue with.
I didn't know that DeSantis has erased all black history content from FL public schools.
I don't think acknowledging that Black History has been taught in public schools for decades is "woke."
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/woke
chiefly US slang
1
: aware of and actively attentive to important societal facts and issues (especially issues of racial and social justice)
But we will only succeed if we reject the growing pressure to retreat into cynicism and hopelessness. … We have a moral obligation to "stay woke," take a stand and be active; challenging injustices and racism in our communities and fighting hatred and discrimination wherever it rises.
—Barbara Lee
… argued that … Brad Pitt is not only woke, but the wokest man in Hollywood … because he uses his status—and his production company Plan B—to create space for artists of color, with such films as 12 Years a Slave, Selma, and the upcoming film Moonlight.
—Giselle Defares
Being woke to gender discrimination is difficult; it ruins things you love. Entire canons of art are rotten to the core with it.
—Rachel Edelstein
—often used in contexts that suggest someone's expressed beliefs about such matters are not backed with genuine concern or action
There is never really a moment where a person of color doesn’t have to deal with discrimination, whether it be veiled and passive or as blunt as possible. So, woke white people, why can’t you step in?
—Lauren Sanchez
Enter the age of the performatively woke brand. Politics has become a kind of fashion accessory for corporate America these days, a way to profit from protest.
—Jon Gingerich
"Fake woke" behavior arises. We put the hashtags on our social media. #Sayhername, #icantbreathe, #blacklivesmatter. And repeat. The problem is that the level of concern we express online doesn’t match the everyday behavior we exhibit.
—Surayya Walters
also : reflecting the attitudes of woke people
woke values/language
In our newly woke times, there has been increased scrutiny of old films dealing with sensitive subjects.
—Hannah Jane Parkinson
He wants to make The Wombles more "woke" so the characters are gender-fluid or of different races.
—Liz Perkins
2
disapproving : politically liberal (as in matters of racial and social justice) especially in a way that is considered unreasonable or extreme
The national conservatives view today’s liberals as woke cultural warriors who pose an existential threat to the nation and its traditions.
—Shadi Hamid
He’s built a social media brand on the right railing against "woke liberals" and supporting former President Donald Trump.
—Marissa Martinez
The military is struggling to find new recruits to fill its ranks. … While the official reasons given by the military—including fewer face-to-face recruitments during the pandemic, and fewer young people who meet the physical standards required—likely play a role, some say it’s because the military is too "woke," turning off its normal constituency of young, conservative recruits.
—Suzanne Bates
If there is any hope, it’s that voters are rejecting woke green goals. Already this has occurred in Sweden and Italy, where voters threw out left-wing governments …
—Michael Shellenberger
'Woke capitalism' tends to be a term that critics use to refer to … portfolios that are built around environmental, social and governance issues like climate change or diversity.
—Victor Reklaitis
https://public.oed.com/blog/june-2017-u ... rds-notes/
...by the mid-20th century, woke had been extended figuratively to refer to being ‘aware’ or ‘well informed’ in a political or cultural sense. In the past decade, that meaning has been catapulted into mainstream use with a particular nuance of ‘alert to racial or social discrimination and injustice’, popularized through the lyrics of the 2008 song Master Teacher by Erykah Badu, in which the words ‘I stay woke’ serve as a refrain, and more recently through its association with the Black Lives Matter movement, especially on social media.

This well established but newly prominent usage of woke has become emblematic of the ways in which black American culture and language are adopted by non-black people who don’t always appreciate their full historical and cultural context. It is therefore of particular interest that the earliest citation for woke, adj. in the figurative sense comes from a 1962 article by the African-American novelist William Melvin Kelley in the New York Times, entitled ‘If you’re woke, you dig it’, which describes how white beatniks were appropriating black slang at the time. The article was illustrated with a cartoon of lexicographers struggling to understand ‘today’s Negro idiom’ (1962 N.Y. Times 20 May, p. 45).

Because of the term’s prominence in today’s popular culture, as well as the role it seems to have played in the 1960s and 70s, the OED Appeals Program is currently seeking any contextual evidence (i.e. not from a glossary or definition) of woke meaning ‘well informed’ or ‘alert to racial or social discrimination and injustice’ that dates from earlier than 2008.

[a fan]

Man. You really miss having Petey to argue with.

Not at all. I told you....if you don't want to answer these questions...move on to tanks. No problem.

And BTW, you've yelled at me----repeatedly-----for daring to assume you agree with a citation. This the the game that Tech and you have perfected...where no matter what I do, it's wrong, and I'm a jerk.

If I assume you agree with a citation, and that's why you're posting it, you bite my head off.

And here you are, handing me two citations, in lieu of telling me what woke is. I can't win no matter what I do.


BTW. Using those definitions, my 82 year old father is "woke". Pretty sure that's not what is getting you so riled up.

You want to discuss things civilly? I'm trying. Cut me some slack.

[old salt]

Man. You really miss having Petey to argue with.

Not at all. I told you....if you don't want to answer these questions...move on to tanks. No problem.

And BTW, you've yelled at me----repeatedly-----for daring to assume you agree with a citation. This the the game that Tech and you have perfected...where no matter what I do, it's wrong, and I'm a jerk.

If I assume you agree with a citation, and that's why you're posting it, you bite my head off.

And here you are, handing me two citations, in lieu of telling me what woke is. I can't win no matter what I do.


BTW. Using those definitions, my 82 year old father is "woke". Pretty sure that's not what is getting you so riled up.

You want to discuss things civilly? I'm trying. Cut me some slack.

I posted definitions of "woke" from Webster's & the Oxford dictionaries. Both work for me.
I'll respond further in the DeSantis thread.