THE 2019 Hopkins Lacrosse Fallout Shelter (44, we want more!)

[runrussellrun]

How about recruiting ONLY midfielders, playing them as mids, and converting some to attack, some to SSDM/LSM, and some to close D?

I’m tired of this convert attack to midfield dung. Go the other way.

Throw in an occasional goalie too.

Or just recruit Andre Tippett type players Suddenly I had a vision from Iron Man two in the arms dealer trying to sell the Air Force everything and then they end up buying it all

[runrussellrun]

There's been a lot of round and round on this thread about the root cause of this middling team. Talent isn't the issue. The size and athleticism issue is only a problem on the defensive midfield. Lots of teams have smallish offensive midfielders or converted attack that haven't struggled like Hopkins has this year.

really? like who? who is loaded at the midfield with about only small, converted attackmen?

maryland has 2, one on each of the 1sts and 2nds... and a bunch of productive mids. o state has several. and a bunch of big dudes and canadians yale a couple. they all have actual middies playing.

lots?

With only one player who can really create for himself (Epstein) - and he's really being forced into a dual facilitator-scorer role in this offense, which is a lot to ask of a freshman - defenses can pack in more and defend the knowns of your offense. Let Williams take forever to sweep around or back down his defender...right into a double team. Take away Marr's space. Let the midfielders alley dodge down the hashmarks of the field. They're non-threats on the run from 15 yards out, and there's no need to slide to them.

Talent ain't the problem. An out-dated system is.

sooooo...... what do you consider talent?

Penn State doesn't run many huge midfielders. If I'm not mistaken, neither does Loyola. Cornell has a mix, so does Yale. Denver has a mix. OSU flips LeClaire and Jasinsky between A and M. On Maryland's first line, the only true midfielder is Snider. Bubba and DeMaio are converted attackmen. Long on their second line is a converted attackman. Masci and Zawadzki are midfielders.

But if you read what I said, I said smallish midfielder OR converted attack. JHU's issue is that the talent they have doesn't match the system they're trying to run, especially in the shot clock era.

yes, i read what you said. and i do think the operative word here is and, not or.

penn state, loyola, cornell, yale, denver... regardless of size, run midfielders. and an attackman here and there. bubba (and bernhardt, their x guy now) would be prototype middies had they not been running mostly attack before college (along with some midfield).
hopkins, in contrast, has 5 attackmen running on the first 2 lines. 4 of them can be thrown in the category of "small". small doesn't necessarily keep you off the field at any position, unless that and your skill set does. at least at most places. joel tinney is the epitome of a midfielder. besides his physical stature, who on 2019 hopkins reminds you of tinney? 7 of the top 8 guys taking shots, by an almost 2 to 1 margin over everyone else, are attackmen. and the 8th played some of both coming in.

now take it to a recruiting angle to see some of the future. a top, stud midfielder sees all the attackmen running around playing midfield the last couple of years at hopkins. and maybe next year. they know, or should, that hopkins has been verballing at least 5 offensive mids per year. and none of them see the field? 1 or 2 guys? if i'm that midfielder, personally i'd probably be ok with bringing in 15 + classes a year... my expectation is that if i was good enough, i'd beat them out (though could see how someone might not love that idea). but if those 20 middies, if they're even still on the roster, are all getting replaced at my position by guys who can't win in their own spot? attackmen no less? maybe without the typical midfield skill set on top of that? gonna have a little problem with that one. i'm going to look at the teams who bring in 12 guys a year, don't have the attrition, and actually have midfielders play midfield. if you don't know what i'm talking about, you've never played midfield. and dug out gbs, or played d in the hole, cleared the ball... all for an attackman to catch and shoot a bunny on the unsettled and get the chicks.

you keep on mentioning the usual suspects Who is going to cover trainer from UMass one of the Lilly Putin’s of Homewood???? Good luck trying to cover… Oh what’s that guys name again… That’s stud midi who plays at sacred heart Boston state university or even holy cross have 6 foot plus midfielders

[runrussellrun]

The notion you can wish it so and it will therefore become so is quaint.

I have neglected to add to my list of recruiting issues social life on campus. A recent recruit who went elsewhere reminded me of it.

Navy terminated Richie Meade because a bunch of elderly alums decided Navy could return to the 1950s. They can’t and I would argue they would have been better with Richie.

Gresham’s Law - Bad money drives out good

Obama argues recently against circular firing squads. Let me know who the survivor it is

Obama PA Hopkins graduate because clearly the problem or rather a question, lies and weather there it is an odd numbered circle or even numbered circle on who survives

[HopFan16]

so you are left with rolling the dice on a promising young coach.

Well...yeah. Sometimes you have to roll the dice on someone relatively unproven. Worked out pretty well for the LA Rams I would say.

The problem is I don't know if there is a "McVay" in college lacrosse. If you have to keep it within the Hopkins family (meaning either alums or former coaches) then that limits your options considerably.

The notion you can wish it so and it will therefore become so is quaint.

I have neglected to add to my list of recruiting issues social life on campus. A recent recruit who went elsewhere reminded me of it.

Navy terminated Richie Meade because a bunch of elderly alums decided Navy could return to the 1950s. They can’t and I would argue they would have been better with Richie.

Gresham’s Law - Bad money drives out good

Obama argues recently against circular firing squads. Let me know who the survivor it is

Sunk cost fallacy.

[wgdsr]

Get your best 6 on the field. That's it. Positions are meaningless in the modern game. Midfielders need to dodge against LSMs. With pick-and-roll being so prevalent now, midfielders have poles switched on them all the time. If they can't dodge against poles, they can't play. Few teams play true-way middies anymore, so even if a converted attackman gets caught back on defense, he'll run off when the SSDM covering him runs off. As for Bernhardt and Fairman really being midfielders who just play attack because they did in high school, we will have to agree to disagree.

OSU now follows the "get the 6 best on the field," too. Jasinski is an attackman playing midfield (he's quite small, too). Buckley and Bugliosi are attackmen playing midfield. Jackson Reid is listed as midfielder, but he's an attackman. Tre Leclaire ran through the box last season as a midfielder. OSU's pairs offense doesn't differentiate between attack and midfield.

it's all how you use your best 6. If Hopkins' best 6 include 5 attackmen, then the offense needs to fit that personnel. If not, you have square pegs. That was my entire point, and why if Petro stays, I won't be surprised to see a new OC come to Homewood next year. As for recruiting, you'd think the lack of "true midfielders" would be a recruiting selling point. Come to Hopkins...we need midfielders so badly that we're forced to run a bunch of attack at midfield.

I played midfield in college. The game has changed, though, since then.

that must've been some time ago, as in the 80s teams played with lsm's and ssdm's. there was specialization then.
i agree with your point about being able to dodge everybody, not sure if it's in response to someone else.
you said "lots of teams" that haven't struggled like hopkins... i don't agree that lots of successful teams have one midfielder, out of 20, getting significant enough time to take > a shot+/- per game.
and no, don't see that as a selling point about what the coaches may look for in P.T.

call me crazy, but i still think there's plenty of room in today's game for guys who can run by their guy up top, shoot on the run, shoot from distance, play in the hole when called upon, get a loosie, come on the field to help clear the ball and then play in an offense, etc..

anyway, offense hasn't been their primary problem. the other end largely has been. i see hopkins is 53rd in defensive goals per game. and that's not all on attackmen getting caught on d. though by the by, they're also 53rd in ground balls. not sure it's all related (winky emoji).

[WOMBAT, Mod Emeritus]

The notion you can wish it so and it will therefore become so is quaint.

I have neglected to add to my list of recruiting issues social life on campus. A recent recruit who went elsewhere reminded me of it.

Navy terminated Richie Meade because a bunch of elderly alums decided Navy could return to the 1950s. They can’t and I would argue they would have been better with Richie.

Gresham’s Law - Bad money drives out good

Obama argues recently against circular firing squads. Let me know who the survivor it is

The obvious solution is to fire Belichick.

[viper]

I think its a bad generalization to think that attack and midfield are interchangeable positions. They both require a somewhat different skill set. Quick stop and go dodging from down low or behind the goal is very different from a downhill run and dodge toward the goal. Midfield also requires a very strong outside shot from at least one side which many attackmen don't have. This is not even considering the defensive side of the field where lifelong attackmen have zero ability and experience.

Yes there are many excellent athletes who have the skill sets to excel at both, but I think in the present case we might be seeing players with better attack skills being used at midfield resulting in a team with few outside shooting options and alot of less than effective lateral dodging up top. Would be good to add more bombers and downhill dodgers to the mix.

[WOMBAT, Mod Emeritus]

I think its a bad generalization to think that attack and midfield are interchangeable positions. They both require a somewhat different skill set. Quick stop and go dodging from down low or behind the goal is very different from a downhill run and dodge toward the goal. Midfield also requires a very strong outside shot from at least one side which many attackmen don't have. This is not even considering the defensive side of the field where lifelong attackmen have zero ability and experience.

Yes there are many excellent athletes who have the skill sets to excel at both, but I think in the present case we might be seeing players with better attack skills being used at midfield resulting in a team with few outside shooting options and alot of less than effective lateral dodging up top. Would be good to add more bombers and downhill dodgers to the mix.

Exhibit A: Corey Harned

[51percentcorn]

I don't know whether anyone is actually considering this - but one thing I would point out is that I think that alot of this is another poor by- product of early recruiting and in particular Hopkins 50 caliber approach to early recruiting . By that I mean - Petro (I don't believe) did not intend to have a multitude of converted attackmen on his mid-field lines - it more happened to him when you recruit 15-16 kids per class and you have de-commits, burn-outs (on lax I mean), and transfers. When he recruited Smith, Baskin, Keogh, Concannon etc. 5-6 years ago he didn't exactly know what he would have those many years later. He didn't know DeSimone would fall off a cliff, Supinski would get injured and transfer, 2 top 20 recruits would de-commit, and others wouldn't come close to panning out (People sometimes forget Stagnitta was a UA AA) . He also didn't know back then exactly what his attack lines would be - Marr would have likely only finished one season, Epstein was soon to commit but very few could project he would be this good. I am mildly surprised that a high level mid-field recruit couldn't identify the weakness and want to come and try to play for Hopkins right away in this next class. It sounds like Brunner and Schreiber are your only possible offensive hopes and probably not right away - One of the mid-fielders - Smith I would guess - is the most likely to take Marr's spot - they need a right hander. So at least one of the rising sophs - assuming they stay - will have to step in. But overall, this is why I believe Hopkins needs a completely 180 degree reversal in the recruiting approach - the smallest class possible - If Duke takes 11 a class - Hopkins should take 10 - and be very surgical in the positions taken. Example, I hear Rodgers is a very highly regarded defensive prospect - great - love to have him - do we need 5 longpoles? We are returning 7 close 3 LSMs theoretically - 6 play (3 close/2 LSMs/1 MD specialist) do the math.

I disagree with the notion Petro won't play freshmen - Shack/Tinney/Epstein/Supinski even Concannon was on the field alot against Navy before tearing his ACL - Cattoni was playing before getting injured. Again - we are down completely to discussing Lilly, Mabbett and Degnon - those are the only offensive middies not playing now - I saw Lilly and Mabbett get meaningful runs early in the season - it wasn't consistent and it wasn't a ton but neither looked ready for prime time. Let's tentatively run down the alley and pass it to Epstein or Williams behind and circle back. Now I am pretty sure that's what they were told to do and therein lies a major complaint with Petro's style - it creates the fear of failure so only the rare anointed player can take the risk.

[Wheels]

I think its a bad generalization to think that attack and midfield are interchangeable positions. They both require a somewhat different skill set. Quick stop and go dodging from down low or behind the goal is very different from a downhill run and dodge toward the goal. Midfield also requires a very strong outside shot from at least one side which many attackmen don't have. This is not even considering the defensive side of the field where lifelong attackmen have zero ability and experience.

Yes there are many excellent athletes who have the skill sets to excel at both, but I think in the present case we might be seeing players with better attack skills being used at midfield resulting in a team with few outside shooting options and alot of less than effective lateral dodging up top. Would be good to add more bombers and downhill dodgers to the mix.

Depends on how you use those players, doesn't it? If you're Ohio State running an east-west pairs offense, you need at least 4 players who can that quick, start-stop dodging. If you're Ohio State and always have someone at X even in a pairs set, then you need at least 5 of those start-stop dodging players. If you're running a 1-4-1 set, it helps to have 2 finishers inside and 2 shooters on the wing. But if your offensive system requires alley dodges to draw an internal slide from the defense, maybe you do need someone who can just run past a defensive midfielder. Think about this...and you all have Penn State this weekend. Penn States offense doesn't work so well when Grant Ament isn't triggering the offense. Again, players have to fit the system and the system has to fit the players.

[Big Dog]

By that I mean - Petro (I don't believe) did not intend to have a multitude of converted attackmen on his mid-field lines - it more happened to him when you recruit 15-16 kids per class and you have de-commits, burn-outs (on lax I mean), and transfers.

Not to mention growth spurts. You may hope for a middie, but he grows 6-8" and all of a sudden is a defenseman, or a b'ball player. Kids grow a lot in HS. Or, not.

[HopFan16]

I disagree with the notion Petro won't play freshmen - Shack/Tinney/Epstein/Supinski even Concannon was on the field alot against Navy before tearing his ACL - Cattoni was playing before getting injured. Again - we are down completely to discussing Lilly, Mabbett and Degnon - those are the only offensive middies not playing now - I saw Lilly and Mabbett get meaningful runs early in the season - it wasn't consistent and it wasn't a ton but neither looked ready for prime time. Let's tentatively run down the alley and pass it to Epstein or Williams behind and circle back. Now I am pretty sure that's what they were told to do and therein lies a major complaint with Petro's style - it creates the fear of failure so only the rare anointed player can take the risk.

This is the key. It's not that he doesn't play freshmen. We know that's not true. It's that the leash tends to be much, much shorter for a freshman. If they make a mistake, or fail to make an impact (even when it's clear in the case of Mabbett I think most of all, that they have no intention of actually letting them DO anything besides take up space on the field), then they don't see the field again for large periods of time, if at all. Zinn botched a GB against Syracuse and then we don't see him on offense for the rest of the season? (Ok he played offense once against Virginia, torched the net, and THEN hasn't played on offense again since then.) If Keogh or Baskin or DeSimone or whomever make a similar error, nothing happens. DeSimone had an illegal stick, still played the whole game, despite a total lack of production all season. Baskin missed two laughably wide open looks on the crease, and yet they kept running him out there and even started the offense through him on inverts on several occasions. He hasn't scored in over a month.

Degnon can shoot the rock. He reminded me of a more mobile version of Pat Fraser coming out of high school. Lefty wing shooter, not "fast" per se but capable of working to get his hands free for a rip. Adept at backing down his defender and getting to the middle to increase his angle. Lethal jab step—lethal against high school defenders at least. Had 66 points as a midfielder his senior year for DeMatha, playing on the same line as that Duke freshman middie who has 19 pts for the Blue Devils this year. His highlights are on YouTube. Seems like that could be an interesting player to give a run to once in awhile.

[jhu06]

8-10 in the ncaa tournament, 1 ff, 1 missed tournament and we'll see if it's 2 over the last decade. To me that's all that counts right now and the rest of this is just rehashing old discussions with new players.

Very clear question for Shanahan or whomever is in charge-what is the standard for Johns Hopkins mens lacrosse and do those results over a decade meet it?

[WOMBAT, Mod Emeritus]

The notion you can wish it so and it will therefore become so is quaint.

I have neglected to add to my list of recruiting issues social life on campus. A recent recruit who went elsewhere reminded me of it.

Navy terminated Richie Meade because a bunch of elderly alums decided Navy could return to the 1950s. They can’t and I would argue they would have been better with Richie.

Gresham’s Law - Bad money drives out good

Obama argues recently against circular firing squads. Let me know who the survivor it is

When you get to the level of the individual recruit, every place has issues. Unless, for some reason, Hopkins' lack of social life only applies to midfielders?

Hmm. So Hopkins needs to appeal to players who go both ways?

[HowieT3]

I think the question at hand is not his overall record against top-five opponents, but the trend.

But, paraphrasing OC and A Fan: How would that trend have differed had somebody else been at the helm?
And somebody else who? Scotty and Chic are not available. Tierney the elder is not coming back, I have read grumbling about Tierney the younger, Marr has his ups and downs, so is Nadelen the only high-profile candidate left with JHU experience?

Outside of JHU experience (have we ever had a HC without it?) are there any realistic high-profile candidates? I cannot see any ACC coach coming, and Toomey seems happy at Loyola (not to mention the game was not close this year), so you are left with rolling the dice on a promising young coach.

John Haus in 1999 and 2000. How quickly they forget.

[WOMBAT, Mod Emeritus]

I think the question at hand is not his overall record against top-five opponents, but the trend.

But, paraphrasing OC and A Fan: How would that trend have differed had somebody else been at the helm?
And somebody else who? Scotty and Chic are not available. Tierney the elder is not coming back, I have read grumbling about Tierney the younger, Marr has his ups and downs, so is Nadelen the only high-profile candidate left with JHU experience?

Outside of JHU experience (have we ever had a HC without it?) are there any realistic high-profile candidates? I cannot see any ACC coach coming, and Toomey seems happy at Loyola (not to mention the game was not close this year), so you are left with rolling the dice on a promising young coach.

John Haus in 1999 and 2000. How quickly they forget.

The stepping stone to UNC. Turned into a mistake at both places.

[molo]

Don't forget the guy who preceded Haus although I think virtually every Hopkins fan would like to.
According to my secret source, the team that wins the JHU-PSU game will be coached by a former Cornell coach with an Italian surname.

[WOMBAT, Mod Emeritus]

Don't forget the guy who preceded Haus although I think virtually every Hopkins fan would like to.
According to my secret source, the team that wins the JHU-PSU game will be coached by a former Cornell coach with an Italian surname.

I’ll take close playoff losses compared to embarrassing no-show asswhipping playoff blowouts.

What’s old Tony up to these days? Wonder if he’d like his paid vehicle back and extended for a few more years?

[wgdsr]

i believe he's still coaching at st andrew's in florida. saw him down in the sunshine state in january.

[WOMBAT, Mod Emeritus]

i believe he's still coaching at st andrew's in florida. saw him down in the sunshine state in january.

Great for him. Warmer too.