The Independent State Legislature Doctrine

[Lax Fidelis]

Lindsey Graham: I’ll listen to the lady but we’re going to move ahead.

Graham's spine was buried along with Sen. McCain's casket. Graham is now a grasping toady of Trump these days who craves being regarded as an important player. Trump is playing him like an automated piano. Graham was never anything more than a wingman for McCain, he would never fly the lead.

[dislaxxic]

Quite correct...Huckleberry Graham has been a odious human being since he rode Clinton Impeachment coattails as a junior House member all the way to his (self) exalted status as a Senior Senator. Watch him during those long-ago proceedings and his sneering sanctimony just utterly oozes out of his pores. He knew he had a horse to flog, and flog he did, all the way to the US Senate.

..

[tech37]

and you, of course, have missed or disregarded it in your zeal to be a protector of the universe and most things Trump

not quite seacoaster...don't confuse my zeal to push back on "resistance" BS on here with any zeal to protect anything else you might imagine. (note lol emoji)

[runrussellrun]

Dr Ford has asked for an FBI Investigation of her charge before the hearing takes place. Seems reasonable and rarely the strategy employed by liars.

In what world would the FBI be investigating a criminal assault case in Monkey County?

[Typical Lax Dad]

Dr Ford has asked for an FBI Investigation of her charge before the hearing takes place. Seems reasonable and rarely the strategy employed by liars.

In what world would the FBI be investigating a criminal assault case in Monkey County?

This World

[frmanfan]

So we have someone who was 15 and we assume also drunk. Or was she the one person at the party not drunk? I haven't seen anything on this.

She leaves a party downstairs, goes up a narrow flight of stairs to go to the bathroom. Two guys shove her in a room and lock the door.

They jump on her and grope her. Then she escapes.

So how long does this last, maybe 30 seconds, certainly no more than that, they were stumbling drunk.

She mentioned it to her therapist in 2012, but doesn't name any names. So maybe something happened, but we don't really know with whom, other than what she is saying now. The only two names she remembers are these two guys. She remembers nobody else at the party, let alone the place or date.

Then their is the issue of them turning up the music. In 1982 or so, that means a radio or a turntable/stereo. But it is in a locked bedroom, not the party central. They are stumbling drunk for the 30 or so seconds this lasted. They aren't familiar with the room, unless of course it was their house but she doesn't ever say that because she can't remember, but they find the radio (if there was one) and are able to turn it on.

Excuse me for being skeptical of the story, I am a white guy and we are of course all liars. I could have been accused of this from 1982, and I wouldn't have any way of denying this. No witnesses, no date, no place, nothing.

I have been in this position, of being called a liar (although not over sexual assault), when I know that the claim was absolutely not true. And when there is no way to rebut the allegation, there is always that seed of doubt that will never go away.

[runrussellrun]

Lindsey Graham: I’ll listen to the lady but we’re going to move ahead.

Graham's spine was buried along with Sen. McCain's casket. Graham is now a grasping toady of Trump these days who craves being regarded as an important player. Trump is playing him like an automated piano. Graham was never anything more than a wingman for McCain, he would never fly the lead.

Yes, Graham could never see the Forest-tal for the trees. But , but, he was "exonorated", retired a Captain don't you know?

How many were killed b/c of that clowns immature actions? Oh.....the recalcitrant Admirals son brat said he was sorry.

[runrussellrun]

Dr Ford has asked for an FBI Investigation of her charge before the hearing takes place. Seems reasonable and rarely the strategy employed by liars.

In what world would the FBI be investigating a criminal assault case in Monkey County?

This World

Sorry, but NO, this isn't helping. Ford never went to the cops. End of story. She still can though. But I know for a fact they would never prosecute.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Dr Ford has asked for an FBI Investigation of her charge before the hearing takes place. Seems reasonable and rarely the strategy employed by liars.

In what world would the FBI be investigating a criminal assault case in Monkey County?

This World

Sorry, but NO, this isn't helping. Ford never went to the cops. End of story. She still can though. But I know for a fact they would never prosecute.

It is not about prosecuting a criminal case. The role is to gather information for the senate....you know, so that they can potentially ask competent questions.

[Typical Lax Dad]

So we have someone who was 15 and we assume also drunk. Or was she the one person at the party not drunk? I haven't seen anything on this.

She leaves a party downstairs, goes up a narrow flight of stairs to go to the bathroom. Two guys shove her in a room and lock the door.

They jump on her and grope her. Then she escapes.

So how long does this last, maybe 30 seconds, certainly no more than that, they were stumbling drunk.

She mentioned it to her therapist in 2012, but doesn't name any names. So maybe something happened, but we don't really know with whom, other than what she is saying now. The only two names she remembers are these two guys. She remembers nobody else at the party, let alone the place or date.

Then their is the issue of them turning up the music. In 1982 or so, that means a radio or a turntable/stereo. But it is in a locked bedroom, not the party central. They are stumbling drunk for the 30 or so seconds this lasted. They aren't familiar with the room, unless of course it was their house but she doesn't ever say that because she can't remember, but they find the radio (if there was one) and are able to turn it on.

Excuse me for being skeptical of the story, I am a white guy and we are of course all liars. I could have been accused of this from 1982, and I wouldn't have any way of denying this. No witnesses, no date, no place, nothing.

I have been in this position, of being called a liar (although not over sexual assault), when I know that the claim was absolutely not true. And when there is no way to rebut the allegation, there is always that seed of doubt that will never go away.

You are gong to rush to defend someone you don't know? People have kids that live in their own house and they don't know half of what they do.....seems like a quick open and shut situation, "we asked around and nobody remembers it happening" .... these people in the White House are dumber than I realized or the peasants are even "stupider" than I realized. I don't know what Kavanaugh or this woman did or did not do.....should have had a quick investigation back in July when it was initially surfaced as part of the extreme vetting process......

[HooDat]

The role is to gather information for the senate....you know, so that they can potentially ask competent questions.

You are gong to rush to defend someone you don't know? People have kids that live in their own house and they don't know half of what they do.....seems like a quick open and shut situation, "we asked around and nobody remembers it happening" .... these people in the White House are dumber than I realized or the peasants are even "stupider" than I realized. I don't know what Kavanaugh or this woman did or did not do.....should have had a quick investigation back in July when it was initially surfaced as part of the extreme vetting process......

and if the truth to this is what was important to Feinstein, why did she shelve this until the last minute. --- TAATS

I could have been accused of this from 1982, and I wouldn't have any way of denying this. No witnesses, no date, no place, nothing.

I have been in this position, of being called a liar (although not over sexual assault), when I know that the claim was absolutely not true. And when there is no way to rebut the allegation, there is always that seed of doubt that will never go away.

.... we left innocent until proven guilty in this country a LOOOONG time ago. It is now, innocent until the media convicts you......


or should I say "innocent until politically convenient to my side...."

[runrussellrun]

TLD, was it YOU that said Sen. Liz Warren did NOT have any authority to prosecute the wells fargo guy ? ($ipping a cocktail in Belize right now)

Doesn't really matter, someone did. Ford remembered the "event" in 2012. Why not go to the Monkey county police and report it? Everything frmman states is thought provoking. Why did she have a bathing suit still on? Was this a pool party? Did she think it was? Or, was she going to head to one of the many neighborhood club pools in Monkey county? Or sneak into Columbia's pool? Perhaps traspe up to Congressional before the gross mcmansions sprouted up.

So, it's the US Senates job to investigate every accusation, even though they have NO POWER to prosecute? What is the purpose of congressional hearings? To create legislation, or qualify it?

Doesn't the Federal budget run out at the end of the month? Don't they have better things to do then question a quacky witness? Ford scrubber her social media, why?

[Typical Lax Dad]

TLD, was it YOU that said Sen. Liz Warren did NOT have any authority to prosecute the wells fargo guy ? ($ipping a cocktail in Belize right now)

Doesn't really matter, someone did. Ford remembered the "event" in 2012. Why not go to the Monkey county police and report it? Everything frmman states is thought provoking. Why did she have a bathing suit still on? Was this a pool party? Did she think it was? Or, was she going to head to one of the many neighborhood club pools in Monkey county? Or sneak into Columbia's pool? Perhaps traspe up to Congressional before the gross mcmansions sprouted up.

So, it's the US Senates job to investigate every accusation, even though they have NO POWER to prosecute? What is the purpose of congressional hearings? To create legislation, or qualify it?

Doesn't the Federal budget run out at the end of the month? Don't they have better things to do then question a quacky witness? Ford scrubber her social media, why?

It wasn't me.... one of my high school teammates was recently married in Belize and my brother was there back in early August. It is on my list but I have not made it there. ... I don't always know why people do what they do and I don't know why teenagers do most of what they do...... why did the kid run from the police.....well because he was a kid.... my son's high school teammate ran from a cop and when the cop caught him he hit him in the face before being wrestled down..... why did he run?.... because he was a teenager......Went on to have a pretty good college career. I am certain you have seen him play also..... Teenagers do stupid sh*t all the time.

[Typical Lax Dad]

The role is to gather information for the senate....you know, so that they can potentially ask competent questions.

You are gong to rush to defend someone you don't know? People have kids that live in their own house and they don't know half of what they do.....seems like a quick open and shut situation, "we asked around and nobody remembers it happening" .... these people in the White House are dumber than I realized or the peasants are even "stupider" than I realized. I don't know what Kavanaugh or this woman did or did not do.....should have had a quick investigation back in July when it was initially surfaced as part of the extreme vetting process......

and if the truth to this is what was important to Feinstein, why did she shelve this until the last minute. --- TAATS

I could have been accused of this from 1982, and I wouldn't have any way of denying this. No witnesses, no date, no place, nothing.

I have been in this position, of being called a liar (although not over sexual assault), when I know that the claim was absolutely not true. And when there is no way to rebut the allegation, there is always that seed of doubt that will never go away.

.... we left innocent until proven guilty in this country a LOOOONG time ago. It is now, innocent until the media convicts you......


or should I say "innocent until politically convenient to my side...."

https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/17/politics ... index.html

Could you post the video or article which details when "Feinstein" spilled the beans?

[frmanfan]

So we have someone who was 15 and we assume also drunk. Or was she the one person at the party not drunk? I haven't seen anything on this.

She leaves a party downstairs, goes up a narrow flight of stairs to go to the bathroom. Two guys shove her in a room and lock the door.

They jump on her and grope her. Then she escapes.

So how long does this last, maybe 30 seconds, certainly no more than that, they were stumbling drunk.

She mentioned it to her therapist in 2012, but doesn't name any names. So maybe something happened, but we don't really know with whom, other than what she is saying now. The only two names she remembers are these two guys. She remembers nobody else at the party, let alone the place or date.

Then their is the issue of them turning up the music. In 1982 or so, that means a radio or a turntable/stereo. But it is in a locked bedroom, not the party central. They are stumbling drunk for the 30 or so seconds this lasted. They aren't familiar with the room, unless of course it was their house but she doesn't ever say that because she can't remember, but they find the radio (if there was one) and are able to turn it on.

Excuse me for being skeptical of the story, I am a white guy and we are of course all liars. I could have been accused of this from 1982, and I wouldn't have any way of denying this. No witnesses, no date, no place, nothing.

I have been in this position, of being called a liar (although not over sexual assault), when I know that the claim was absolutely not true. And when there is no way to rebut the allegation, there is always that seed of doubt that will never go away.

You are gong to rush to defend someone you don't know? People have kids that live in their own house and they don't know half of what they do.....seems like a quick open and shut situation, "we asked around and nobody remembers it happening" .... these people in the White House are dumber than I realized or the peasants are even "stupider" than I realized. I don't know what Kavanaugh or this woman did or did not do.....should have had a quick investigation back in July when it was initially surfaced as part of the extreme vetting process......

It is true that we "peasants" are not nearly as smart as you are. Good thing we have you to tell us what the truth is.

[Typical Lax Dad]

So we have someone who was 15 and we assume also drunk. Or was she the one person at the party not drunk? I haven't seen anything on this.

She leaves a party downstairs, goes up a narrow flight of stairs to go to the bathroom. Two guys shove her in a room and lock the door.

They jump on her and grope her. Then she escapes.

So how long does this last, maybe 30 seconds, certainly no more than that, they were stumbling drunk.

She mentioned it to her therapist in 2012, but doesn't name any names. So maybe something happened, but we don't really know with whom, other than what she is saying now. The only two names she remembers are these two guys. She remembers nobody else at the party, let alone the place or date.

Then their is the issue of them turning up the music. In 1982 or so, that means a radio or a turntable/stereo. But it is in a locked bedroom, not the party central. They are stumbling drunk for the 30 or so seconds this lasted. They aren't familiar with the room, unless of course it was their house but she doesn't ever say that because she can't remember, but they find the radio (if there was one) and are able to turn it on.

Excuse me for being skeptical of the story, I am a white guy and we are of course all liars. I could have been accused of this from 1982, and I wouldn't have any way of denying this. No witnesses, no date, no place, nothing.

I have been in this position, of being called a liar (although not over sexual assault), when I know that the claim was absolutely not true. And when there is no way to rebut the allegation, there is always that seed of doubt that will never go away.

You are gong to rush to defend someone you don't know? People have kids that live in their own house and they don't know half of what they do.....seems like a quick open and shut situation, "we asked around and nobody remembers it happening" .... these people in the White House are dumber than I realized or the peasants are even "stupider" than I realized. I don't know what Kavanaugh or this woman did or did not do.....should have had a quick investigation back in July when it was initially surfaced as part of the extreme vetting process......

It is true that we "peasants" are not nearly as smart as you are. Good thing we have you to tell us what the truth is.

We are all peasants......(probably a handful of exceptions here).... Are you the guy that said that cop in Pittsburgh was just doing his job or was that someone else?

[Brooklyn]

[seacoaster]

So we have someone who was 15 and we assume also drunk. Or was she the one person at the party not drunk? I haven't seen anything on this.

She leaves a party downstairs, goes up a narrow flight of stairs to go to the bathroom. Two guys shove her in a room and lock the door.

They jump on her and grope her. Then she escapes.

So how long does this last, maybe 30 seconds, certainly no more than that, they were stumbling drunk.

She mentioned it to her therapist in 2012, but doesn't name any names. So maybe something happened, but we don't really know with whom, other than what she is saying now. The only two names she remembers are these two guys. She remembers nobody else at the party, let alone the place or date.

Then their is the issue of them turning up the music. In 1982 or so, that means a radio or a turntable/stereo. But it is in a locked bedroom, not the party central. They are stumbling drunk for the 30 or so seconds this lasted. They aren't familiar with the room, unless of course it was their house but she doesn't ever say that because she can't remember, but they find the radio (if there was one) and are able to turn it on.

Excuse me for being skeptical of the story, I am a white guy and we are of course all liars. I could have been accused of this from 1982, and I wouldn't have any way of denying this. No witnesses, no date, no place, nothing.

I have been in this position, of being called a liar (although not over sexual assault), when I know that the claim was absolutely not true. And when there is no way to rebut the allegation, there is always that seed of doubt that will never go away.

I am a white guy too, and I'm not sure what to think. Folks who deal with this sort of thing seem less skeptical. There is a piece in the WaPo today which is essentially an interview with two prosecutors of "sex crimes" and neither of them were dismissive of the claim, the facts, the timing of the therapy sessions, or the timing and manner in which it surfaced. I'll try to link it later today, if you'd like.

What the Senate should do is another thing altogether. We are talking about the Last Interview for a Lifetime Appointment to the Highest Court in the Land. Why wouldn't the Senate -- if it really cared about giving "advice and consent" -- conduct some fact-finding, particularly once the nominee denied in the most unequivocal way that the incident ever/ever/ever happened. I sense a Karmic Boomerang turning the corner on Brett.....

[MDlaxfan76]

So we have someone who was 15 and we assume also drunk. Or was she the one person at the party not drunk? I haven't seen anything on this.

She leaves a party downstairs, goes up a narrow flight of stairs to go to the bathroom. Two guys shove her in a room and lock the door.

They jump on her and grope her. Then she escapes.

So how long does this last, maybe 30 seconds, certainly no more than that, they were stumbling drunk.

She mentioned it to her therapist in 2012, but doesn't name any names. So maybe something happened, but we don't really know with whom, other than what she is saying now. The only two names she remembers are these two guys. She remembers nobody else at the party, let alone the place or date.

Then their is the issue of them turning up the music. In 1982 or so, that means a radio or a turntable/stereo. But it is in a locked bedroom, not the party central. They are stumbling drunk for the 30 or so seconds this lasted. They aren't familiar with the room, unless of course it was their house but she doesn't ever say that because she can't remember, but they find the radio (if there was one) and are able to turn it on.

Excuse me for being skeptical of the story, I am a white guy and we are of course all liars. I could have been accused of this from 1982, and I wouldn't have any way of denying this. No witnesses, no date, no place, nothing.

I have been in this position, of being called a liar (although not over sexual assault), when I know that the claim was absolutely not true. And when there is no way to rebut the allegation, there is always that seed of doubt that will never go away.

I am a white guy too, and I'm not sure what to think. Folks who deal with this sort of thing seem less skeptical. There is a piece in the WaPo today which is essentially an interview with two prosecutors of "sex crimes" and neither of them were dismissive of the claim, the facts, the timing of the therapy sessions, or the timing and manner in which it surfaced. I'll try to link it later today, if you'd like.

What the Senate should do is another thing altogether. We are talking about the Last Interview for a Lifetime Appointment to the Highest Court in the Land. Why wouldn't the Senate -- if it really cared about giving "advice and consent" -- conduct some fact-finding, particularly once the nominee denied in the most unequivocal way that the incident ever/ever/ever happened. I sense a Karmic Boomerang turning the corner on Brett.....

I'm "a white guy" too, 'old' one for that matter, but for some reason I don't feel like a victim, someone whose word can't be trusted more than someone else's of a different gender or ethnicity. Wonder why I'm not defensive?

Could it be that I tell the truth as a matter of basic character, regardless of whether it's convenient to me? Or that I know darn well that I'm blessed to have two healthy, still married parents who worked very hard to provide educational and other opportunities for their children? Perhaps that I also know that there are many who don't have such advantages by virtue of family circumstance, ethnic or gender or other prejudice distinctions? That I don't think I'm better than anyone else based upon such born distinctions out of our control?

I dunno, but I just don't feel like I'm at a disadvantage in the America I live in, for that matter the world I live in.

That doesn't mean, of course, that I've never experienced someone making a biased assumption about me based upon my gender, race, age, religion, etc. It's happened, and I do get how off-putting that can be for someone to make incorrect, biased assumptions. But it doesn't come close to, on net, making me a 'victim' in our society. If anything, it provides a small window into the world of someone making a biased judgment about you, a portal for some empathy for those who have real disadvantages due to such bias.

Back to Kavanaugh and Ford, these are both quite 'credible' people, but we've learned that the environment for a girl or woman identifying herself as having been harassed, assaulted, or raped remains incredibly hostile, even in this #METOO environment and certainly before now. Her story is indeed highly consistent with the experience of survivors, and should very much be considered as having actually occurred. Surely enough so, that an investigation to find any corroboration or refutation that would shed further light is entirely justified.

It may be that her memory is faulty, that someone else was the perpetrator, etc., or even evidence that she made the story up with an agenda that is politically motivated could be found. Or it may be that Kavanaugh's and Judge's denials are flimsy and unbelievable in the context of other information about their behaviors, or even that it can be shown that they are outright lying. From what we do know of Judge, in his own words and stories, certainly drinking to excess, losing control of one's faculties, even blacking out, was par for the course, not a one-time sort of event. And it's clear that Kavanaugh was an active participant in such drinking to excess, like many a teenager. Did other girls ever have uncomfortable experiences with him when he drank to excess? Did he act lewdly at such times? What really was his reputation during that era? Anything remotely like this happen later? Did he tell the truth about the senior judge's lewd emails and comments? Or is this an area in which he never instinctually objected?

Of course, an investigation may not uncover any dispositive information enabling greater clarity of judgment for the Senators. But it very may well do so. Regardless of outcome, that would be much better than the current situation. So, investigating as well as possible before calling for a vote for a lifetime appointment to the highest court is the obviously the right answer.

Absent that, a vote for Kavanaugh is a vote saying that one doesn't believe Ford out of hand, or doesn't care if he did as he is accused, and you don't care if he is lying about it now.

A vote against merely says: find another candidate please, for whom this question is not a coin flip.

[HooDat]

Couldn't a vote for Kavanaugh mean that you believe in the basic precepts of innocent until proven guilty and the right to face your accuser?

My view is that it is quite reasonable to believe that the event occurred. And, it is equally reasonable to believe that it did not, or at least that it did not occur the way Ford is telling it / remembering it.

Ford herself describes serious gaps in her memory of the specifics, including who else was at the party.

Other than being an arrogant prick from Prep who think s he can get away with anything, I can't think of why Kavanaugh would do anything other than say: "I drank too much when I was young. I never knew this happened. I am sorry. Followed by the appropriate weeping, wailing and self-flagellation that is expected of the repentant....."

Even if it isn't true, it would be the safest way forward for the long term prospects of Kavanaugh's career- particularly if there were other people there who will end up corroborating Ford's version of events - even placing him at the scene and establishing the time and location would be enough to impeach him from the SCOTUS and ruin his career forever. Maybe he and Judge took a blood oath to never speak of it again? Perhaps, and if so, maybe Judge will live up to that oath. There were 2 (?) other people at the party. Will they remain silent? I wouldn't. Would you? What rational person would bet a 35 year career on that silence?

There are a lot of moving parts here, but to say "wait for an FBI investigation" is disingenuous. The FBI is not going to take on a 35 year old minor assault case with no witnesses, or date, time or location of the alleged crime. The ONLY way this gets adjudicated is in a congressional hearing like the one's being proposed.

The decision to vote or postpone is a political one. The crime will or won't get prosecuted. The R's and D's are going to have to decide how they want the nomination process to work going forward, and the decisions made here will set that precedent. Since Congress has decided to throw virtually every other cooperative governing convention out the window over the past 20 years, i have to imagine this will go down in a complete scorching of the earth as well.