Sensible Gun Safety

[MDlaxfan76]

I'll work my way up from the bottom, too, though in red.

Not an anomaly: 2020's red states have higher murder rates

Now do "Blue" cities.....

Murder rates ain't about politics, and they aren't about 2A rights. They are about poverty, broken cultures and a lack of hope.

.... do cities period.

exactly. I'll take it one step further - do POOR Communities.

The wealthy urban neighborhoods and suburbs aren't where the shootings are taking place.

It is in the poor (broken) communities. In the country they tend to be "red" in the city they tend to be "blue".

But it all goes back to despair and cultures where shooting someone is viewed as having as much potential upside as down... That is where we are failing. Not justifying their actions, just noting the underlying cause(s).

We'd agree on the immediately above.

That, and a country awash in guns, where the reality is that there's an expectation of using a gun to address any conflict or despair. I call total BS on this. An "expectation of using a gun"?!? really? I thought Texas was the old west - but man, Baltimore has gotten rough baby...!

Yes, in our "American" culture, very sadly, there's an expectation, all too often that the answer is a gun, the weapon carried or easily at hand is a gun, whether in anger, revenge, or despair. All over this country. Really sad.

Notwithstanding, the blue city, red rural, poverty, it's also a reality that the regions where guns are most easily obtained "legally", the murder rate is highest. Obtaining guns illegally is also easier in those regions, or where those regions are reachable easily. balderdash - you telling me there is anywhere easier to buy an illegal gun than Washington DC or Baltimore Maryland? Oh, I guess Chicago...

Yes, it's much easier to purchase ANY gun in areas with no gun regulation, no enforcement, lots and lots of gun shops, where if you can't pass the background check, come to the back door and "Kenny will take care of you". Absolutely it's also easy to purchase an illegal gun in crime ridden neighborhoods in cities, because that's part of the criminal trade...also darn easy to purchase drugs...

So, given the politics, it's no surprise that the regions with the highest deaths by gun are 'red'.
Also no surprise that criminals will obtain the guns wherever easier and transport them to where there's demand.[aren't these points self-contradictory? Is it the state gun laws, the federal protection of the right to cross state lines, or the local lack of support for poor people that is the driving factor in murder rates? I will tell you it is the latter. The worst rates of murder (and murder by gun) are in notoriously democrat led cities. You live in one of them - I can remember driving right through the worst of it to get to the old memorial stadium, and have lived in two of the others (DC and New Orleans). You want the true test - where would YOU be the most afraid of someone holding gun? What is the defining political characteristic of that place?

Well, that sounds actually more racist than I suspect you intend, as I do understand that you're focused on pockets of poverty, and I quite agree on that point. And yes, most urban areas are Dem controlled, but they're way worse on this parameter (generally speaking) in states or regions where guns are easiest to obtain legally and that's red states or nearby such. And those states also happen to have a lot of rural, small town poverty too. So not just the big bad old city. It does very little good to have tough gun control laws in a city if you only need to drive a couple hundred miles to obtain a truckload of guns for your crew. And sell those in the back alley, etc.

It's puzzling that you think these illegal guns don't come through initially legal channels, as overwhelmingly most do.

It's also evident that you haven't seen the stats on the correlation between red voting counties and gun deaths; sure, there are some poor blue counties too, but there's a really strong correlation with deep red voting counties

Other developed countries have poverty like ours, whether rural or urban, and indeed crime and murder rates are higher there than in their more affluent areas...but way lower gun violence. Because guns are not easily obtained much less carried, legally, country-wide.[but are their murder rates any lower? you are blaming the instrument. But is the instrument influencing the outcomes?]

Yes, our murder rate (not just by gun, though that's the weapon of choice here) is much higher than our peer developed countries. We're at 5.3 per 100k, Canada is 1.8; Belgium 1.7; France 1.3, Finland, Norway, and UK all 1.2, Sweden, Scotland, hell Bosnia and Croatia all 1.1; Germany and Ireland 1, Poland, Netherland and Australia 0.8, Spain and Greece and Portugal and New Zealand, 0.7...then Palestine and Israel...want me to go on? There ARE worst places, but none of our peer developed countries and economies

It's not going to be easy to reverse our gun crazy culture, [when you try to establish this as your baseline for the conversation - you are clearly biased]to dramatically reduce the number of guns, but there really are some common sense things we can do to move the needle....but it requires national solutions not state by state, as there's too much interstate bleed over...by criminals.

It's not my "baseline", it's my conclusion. Am I "biased"??? By what exactly? I own 5 guns, am a registered Republican and earlier in my life was an NRA member. Hunter, conservationist. Does that make me biased in favor of gun culture or against? why?

Seriously, we have many times the number of guns per citizen than any other developed country in the world, inclusive of Switzerland where it was once required by law to store a weapon in one's basement as part of the ready militia. We also have many times the number of gun deaths per citizen...no coincidence there. But I'll move up to your next comment above.

there is a lot packed in there MD. My comments in Blue, your comments that i have bolded are specifics of what I am referencing. (by the way, my comments probably read better backwards because I worked my way up

[MDlaxfan76]

Back to equating gun ownership with murder.

Here are few inconvenient facts:

US gun ownership per capita: #1 in the world (and over 2x that of the second place country)

US Murder rate per capita: #89 in the world in the low single digits per 100,000 as compared to the worst 10 that average over 45)

Interestingly enough not one of the top ten per-capita gun owning countries shows up in the top ten per-capita murder rate list!

Gee, maybe it isn't the guns!?

edit to add this link (which you can match up to TLD's link) https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/mur ... untry.html

Yup, there are worse places in the world...but we're multiples worse than all other peer developed economically countries...as I stated in my post above with specifics. And, yes, it's the guns, not the poverty that's the difference.

Be glad you ain't in some of those worst places.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Back to equating gun ownership with murder.

Here are few inconvenient facts:

US gun ownership per capita: #1 in the world (and over 2x that of the second place country)

US Murder rate per capita: #89 in the world in the low single digits per 100,000 as compared to the worst 10 that average over 45)

Interestingly enough not one of the top ten per-capita gun owning countries shows up in the top ten per-capita murder rate list!

Gee, maybe it isn't the guns!?

edit to add this link (which you can match up to TLD's link) https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/mur ... untry.html

What is the peer group for the United States of America? Do you believe “peer groups” have no value?

[jhu72]

The other difference is that a citizen's right to smoke cigarettes are not specifically guaranteed by the freaking Constitution.

Sorry but IMHO a vague and poorly written sentence constructed 250+ years ago should NOT be the only standard.
Not to mention that "well-regulated militia" is mentioned first and should provide some context.

As with all amendments and original articles enumerated rights are NOT absolute and are subject to regulation (reference that actual word in the first phrase)

Lastly, the word "arms" is not defined in any manner or shape and is also subject to regulation.

... I would disagree about the poorly constructed sentence. It may be clumsy by today's standard but it is perfectly understandable if you know how to read English. I am not for giving the right wing nut jobs anyone to blame for the current disaster but themselves. They can't or don't want to understand what the sentence plainly says in this case and no amount of their sophistry will change that! "Well regulated militia" is not a throw away phrase or a poorly designed and understood concept.

My bad. My mention of "well regulated militia" as the first noun means that was their point and emphasis not "arms" which is at the end of the sentence.

My grammatical point was that the poor sentence construction allows some to drive a truck through the alleged interpretation about the right to own firearms somehow being the main point (which it obviously isn't).

.... I never had any doubt of your understanding, object only to giving the mouth breathers anywhere to run and hide.

[jhu72]

The real trick is to improve gun safety for some without making it unsafe for others. Don't take away the ability of the single mom next door to defend her family.

Sure. Like the VA single mom whose 6YO took her firearm to school and nearly killed his teacher.
Who defends the teacher?

Your using a 1 in 300 million incident to make a point? Those are lotto odds.

Tell that to the teacher. i'm sure she's thrilled to have won the lottery.

Otherwise, you want to purchase a firearm - pass a routine test on safe use and storage. A background check for ALL buyers.

... with re ups!

[HooDat]

What is the peer group for the United States of America? Do you believe “peer groups” have no value?

Yup, there are worse places in the world...but we're multiples worse than all other peer developed economically countries...as I stated in my post above with specifics. And, yes, it's the guns, not the poverty that's the difference.

Be glad you ain't in some of those worst places.

I am not sure how a peer group is relevant - other than to imply that rich countries should know better . I had a great grandmother who was a flat out racist, she held similar view regarding a wide variety of decision making and race...

But, if it makes you feel any better - Greenland is about as white a you can get and they have a worse murder rate than we do. <--- fully intended for shock effect and to point out the snobbery of the notion that rich civilized countries should have lower murder rates than scary non-western ones....

People are people. They have good and evil in them. When they are cornered they can get very, very nasty. Doesn't matter how westernized or globalized they are.

With that said, i would ask a different question: if murder is committed out of desperation, and people are logical enough to think about what they have to lose by committing murder - why do the US and Greenland stand out as countries where people see it as a viable risk at 4x the rate of other wealthy countries? I am not arrogant enough to think I have an answer, but I think "guns" is a simplistic answer that doesn't have real data to back it up and smells of other objectives.

[Typical Lax Dad]

What is the peer group for the United States of America? Do you believe “peer groups” have no value?

Yup, there are worse places in the world...but we're multiples worse than all other peer developed economically countries...as I stated in my post above with specifics. And, yes, it's the guns, not the poverty that's the difference.

Be glad you ain't in some of those worst places.

I am not sure how a peer group is relevant - other than to imply that rich countries should know better . I had a great grandmother who was a flat out racist, she held similar view regarding a wide variety of decision making and race...

But, if it makes you feel any better - Greenland is about as white a you can get and they have a worse murder rate than we do. <--- fully intended for shock effect and to point out the snobbery of the notion that rich civilized countries should have lower murder rates than scary non-western ones....

People are people. They have good and evil in them. When they are cornered they can get very, very nasty. Doesn't matter how westernized or globalized they are.

With that said, i would ask a different question: if murder is committed out of desperation, and people are logical enough to think about what they have to lose by committing murder - why do the US and Greenland stand out as countries where people see it as a viable risk at 4x the rate of other wealthy countries? I am not arrogant enough to think I have an answer, but I think "guns" is a simplistic answer that doesn't have real data to back it up and smells of other objectives.

Yes. YOU are not sure. So, it’s an opinion and your opinion is just as wrong as mine. Don’t know how race came up…..My motto is “race” is skin deep. I just dropped off some bacterial DNA samples at a lab that my wife needed to have sequenced for a class….bacteria not human BTW.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Some “peer group” data. These people thought a peer group analysis is sensible. Just their opinion….reasonable people can argue that there is no such thing as a peer group….

https://www.healthdata.org/acting-data/ ... es-outlier

Our company gets measured against a peer group. I think the analysts have it wrong. Financial services are financial services.

[MDlaxfan76]

What is the peer group for the United States of America? Do you believe “peer groups” have no value?

Yup, there are worse places in the world...but we're multiples worse than all other peer developed economically countries...as I stated in my post above with specifics. And, yes, it's the guns, not the poverty that's the difference.

Be glad you ain't in some of those worst places.

I am not sure how a peer group is relevant - other than to imply that rich countries should know better . I had a great grandmother who was a flat out racist, she held similar view regarding a wide variety of decision making and race...

But, if it makes you feel any better - Greenland is about as white a you can get and they have a worse murder rate than we do. <--- fully intended for shock effect and to point out the snobbery of the notion that rich civilized countries should have lower murder rates than scary non-western ones....

People are people. They have good and evil in them. When they are cornered they can get very, very nasty. Doesn't matter how westernized or globalized they are.

With that said, i would ask a different question: if murder is committed out of desperation, and people are logical enough to think about what they have to lose by committing murder - why do the US and Greenland stand out as countries where people see it as a viable risk at 4x the rate of other wealthy countries? I am not arrogant enough to think I have an answer, but I think "guns" is a simplistic answer that doesn't have real data to back it up and smells of other objectives.

Greenland is 5.31 to our 5.3 murder rate per 100k, so "worse"...ok...
They also have two-times the rate of our gun deaths by suicide and about also double our rate of all deaths by gun.

I have no idea why you brought race into it....do you?
But as to "white", do you consider the 80+% of the population that is Inuit to be "as about as white as you can get"???
Or do you mean white as in snowy, desolate terrain?

Is Greenland an economic, developed peer of the US?
They have less than a football stadium as their entire population.

Absent mining, it's an underdeveloped economy.

[cradleandshoot]

Back to equating gun ownership with murder.

Here are few inconvenient facts:

US gun ownership per capita: #1 in the world (and over 2x that of the second place country)

US Murder rate per capita: #89 in the world in the low single digits per 100,000 as compared to the worst 10 that average over 45)

Interestingly enough not one of the top ten per-capita gun owning countries shows up in the top ten per-capita murder rate list!

Gee, maybe it isn't the guns!?

edit to add this link (which you can match up to TLD's link) https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/mur ... untry.html

Yup, there are worse places in the world...but we're multiples worse than all other peer developed economically countries...as I stated in my post above with specifics. And, yes, it's the guns, not the poverty that's the difference.

Be glad you ain't in some of those worst places.

I have to make an observation on your comments in red above. I don't think any gun shop owner with a lick of common sense not dulled by greed is going to sell a weapon outside the guidelines prescribed by their FFL. You want to risk your livelihood by selling weapons out the back door at midnight is something only an idiot would do. Those weapons have serial numbers that point back directly to you. If one of these weapons is used in a crime and is traced back to your shop.. your done, kiss your FFL goodbye. I'm sure that some dealers will take the chance. The risk is just not worth the benefit. When I purchased my 410 it was shipped to a store near my house that specializes in police gear. I went to pick it up, the owner made sure I filled out all the paper work correctly and then he called the FBI people who do back ground checks over the phone. For what it is worth the serial number on my shotgun goes right back to his store. I'm fairly certain if a weapon can be traced back to your shop and you don't have the proper paperwork for the transaction your in deep doo doo. It reminds me of so many of those corner bodegas that sell cases of beer out their back door at 3am. I guess greed can over rule common sense for many store owners. It is no secret that people who possess illegal weapons tick me off to end. IMO law enforcement should leave no stone unturned to trace these weapons back to where they came from and who sold them. I do know if the transaction involves the weapon crossing state lines that is a green light for the feds and the BATF to investigate and charge people with a crime on the federal level. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

[Farfromgeneva]

Back to equating gun ownership with murder.

Here are few inconvenient facts:

US gun ownership per capita: #1 in the world (and over 2x that of the second place country)

US Murder rate per capita: #89 in the world in the low single digits per 100,000 as compared to the worst 10 that average over 45)

Interestingly enough not one of the top ten per-capita gun owning countries shows up in the top ten per-capita murder rate list!

Gee, maybe it isn't the guns!?

edit to add this link (which you can match up to TLD's link) https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/mur ... untry.html

What is the peer group for the United States of America? Do you believe “peer groups” have no value?

I got this one. Meet our peer group.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4Prc1UfuokY

[Farfromgeneva]

What is the peer group for the United States of America? Do you believe “peer groups” have no value?

Yup, there are worse places in the world...but we're multiples worse than all other peer developed economically countries...as I stated in my post above with specifics. And, yes, it's the guns, not the poverty that's the difference.

Be glad you ain't in some of those worst places.

I am not sure how a peer group is relevant - other than to imply that rich countries should know better . I had a great grandmother who was a flat out racist, she held similar view regarding a wide variety of decision making and race...

But, if it makes you feel any better - Greenland is about as white a you can get and they have a worse murder rate than we do. <--- fully intended for shock effect and to point out the snobbery of the notion that rich civilized countries should have lower murder rates than scary non-western ones....

People are people. They have good and evil in them. When they are cornered they can get very, very nasty. Doesn't matter how westernized or globalized they are.

With that said, i would ask a different question: if murder is committed out of desperation, and people are logical enough to think about what they have to lose by committing murder - why do the US and Greenland stand out as countries where people see it as a viable risk at 4x the rate of other wealthy countries? I am not arrogant enough to think I have an answer, but I think "guns" is a simplistic answer that doesn't have real data to back it up and smells of other objectives.

Greenland isn’t a peer. I’ve been there. They go to Denmark as fast as they can usually. Little Denmark of which it’s a part of the kingdom of so it’s saying Denmark is a peer.

[Farfromgeneva]

What is the peer group for the United States of America? Do you believe “peer groups” have no value?

Yup, there are worse places in the world...but we're multiples worse than all other peer developed economically countries...as I stated in my post above with specifics. And, yes, it's the guns, not the poverty that's the difference.

Be glad you ain't in some of those worst places.

I am not sure how a peer group is relevant - other than to imply that rich countries should know better . I had a great grandmother who was a flat out racist, she held similar view regarding a wide variety of decision making and race...

But, if it makes you feel any better - Greenland is about as white a you can get and they have a worse murder rate than we do. <--- fully intended for shock effect and to point out the snobbery of the notion that rich civilized countries should have lower murder rates than scary non-western ones....

People are people. They have good and evil in them. When they are cornered they can get very, very nasty. Doesn't matter how westernized or globalized they are.

With that said, i would ask a different question: if murder is committed out of desperation, and people are logical enough to think about what they have to lose by committing murder - why do the US and Greenland stand out as countries where people see it as a viable risk at 4x the rate of other wealthy countries? I am not arrogant enough to think I have an answer, but I think "guns" is a simplistic answer that doesn't have real data to back it up and smells of other objectives.

Yes. YOU are not sure. So, it’s an opinion and your opinion is just as wrong as mine. Don’t know how race came up…..My motto is “race” is skin deep. I just dropped off some bacterial DNA samples at a lab that my wife needed to have sequenced for a class….bacteria not human BTW.

Feels like Michael Jackson is entering this conversation. Or this guy.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=clD_HL17t94

[Farfromgeneva]

Some “peer group” data. These people thought a peer group analysis is sensible. Just their opinion….reasonable people can argue that there is no such thing as a peer group….

https://www.healthdata.org/acting-data/ ... es-outlier

Our company gets measured against a peer group. I think the analysts have it wrong. Financial services are financial services.

Now that there’s a cost to money you’re going to see a whole lot differentiation. Banking is, of course, the business of buying and selling money.

You see the issues in M&Ts CRE book in its office sub sector? Or Signature going all in on Crypto. SIVB had a massive run and they’re going to fall down hard soon.

[MDlaxfan76]

Back to equating gun ownership with murder.

Here are few inconvenient facts:

US gun ownership per capita: #1 in the world (and over 2x that of the second place country)

US Murder rate per capita: #89 in the world in the low single digits per 100,000 as compared to the worst 10 that average over 45)

Interestingly enough not one of the top ten per-capita gun owning countries shows up in the top ten per-capita murder rate list!

Gee, maybe it isn't the guns!?

edit to add this link (which you can match up to TLD's link) https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/mur ... untry.html

Yup, there are worse places in the world...but we're multiples worse than all other peer developed economically countries...as I stated in my post above with specifics. And, yes, it's the guns, not the poverty that's the difference.

Be glad you ain't in some of those worst places.

I have to make an observation on your comments in red above. I don't think any gun shop owner with a lick of common sense not dulled by greed is going to sell a weapon outside the guidelines prescribed by their FFL. You want to risk your livelihood by selling weapons out the back door at midnight is something only an idiot would do. Those weapons have serial numbers that point back directly to you. If one of these weapons is used in a crime and is traced back to your shop.. your done, kiss your FFL goodbye. I'm sure that some dealers will take the chance. The risk is just not worth the benefit. When I purchased my 410 it was shipped to a store near my house that specializes in police gear. I went to pick it up, the owner made sure I filled out all the paper work correctly and then he called the FBI people who do back ground checks over the phone. For what it is worth the serial number on my shotgun goes right back to his store. I'm fairly certain if a weapon can be traced back to your shop and you don't have the proper paperwork for the transaction your in deep doo doo. It reminds me of so many of those corner bodegas that sell cases of beer out their back door at 3am. I guess greed can over rule common sense for many store owners. It is no secret that people who possess illegal weapons tick me off to end. IMO law enforcement should leave no stone unturned to trace these weapons back to where they came from and who sold them. I do know if the transaction involves the weapon crossing state lines that is a green light for the feds and the BATF to investigate and charge people with a crime on the federal level. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

you live in a state with strong gun laws, and serious enforcement.

I specifically was discussing how easy it is to get guns in regions where that's not the case, including the gun dealers who are quite willing to deal black market as well as the front of store legit business.

But don't need to go to them at the store, the gun shows are easy peasy to buy as many weapons as you like.

And gotta remember, when there's a buck to be made, people will find ways to make it...and where the gun culture doesn't give a cr-p about guns moving around, that's where the hustlers making a buck go to acquire the weapons to take back to the regions where it's 'harder'. That's why there are so many guns in Rochester...a lot of demand to protect those street corners, to be as armed as the next cat.

[cradleandshoot]

Back to equating gun ownership with murder.

Here are few inconvenient facts:

US gun ownership per capita: #1 in the world (and over 2x that of the second place country)

US Murder rate per capita: #89 in the world in the low single digits per 100,000 as compared to the worst 10 that average over 45)

Interestingly enough not one of the top ten per-capita gun owning countries shows up in the top ten per-capita murder rate list!

Gee, maybe it isn't the guns!?

edit to add this link (which you can match up to TLD's link) https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/mur ... untry.html

Yup, there are worse places in the world...but we're multiples worse than all other peer developed economically countries...as I stated in my post above with specifics. And, yes, it's the guns, not the poverty that's the difference.

Be glad you ain't in some of those worst places.

I have to make an observation on your comments in red above. I don't think any gun shop owner with a lick of common sense not dulled by greed is going to sell a weapon outside the guidelines prescribed by their FFL. You want to risk your livelihood by selling weapons out the back door at midnight is something only an idiot would do. Those weapons have serial numbers that point back directly to you. If one of these weapons is used in a crime and is traced back to your shop.. your done, kiss your FFL goodbye. I'm sure that some dealers will take the chance. The risk is just not worth the benefit. When I purchased my 410 it was shipped to a store near my house that specializes in police gear. I went to pick it up, the owner made sure I filled out all the paper work correctly and then he called the FBI people who do back ground checks over the phone. For what it is worth the serial number on my shotgun goes right back to his store. I'm fairly certain if a weapon can be traced back to your shop and you don't have the proper paperwork for the transaction your in deep doo doo. It reminds me of so many of those corner bodegas that sell cases of beer out their back door at 3am. I guess greed can over rule common sense for many store owners. It is no secret that people who possess illegal weapons tick me off to end. IMO law enforcement should leave no stone unturned to trace these weapons back to where they came from and who sold them. I do know if the transaction involves the weapon crossing state lines that is a green light for the feds and the BATF to investigate and charge people with a crime on the federal level. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

you live in a state with strong gun laws, and serious enforcement.

I specifically was discussing how easy it is to get guns in regions where that's not the case, including the gun dealers who are quite willing to deal black market as well as the front of store legit business.

But don't need to go to them at the store, the gun shows are easy peasy to buy as many weapons as you like.

And gotta remember, when there's a buck to be made, people will find ways to make it...and where the gun culture doesn't give a cr-p about guns moving around, that's where the hustlers making a buck go to acquire the weapons to take back to the regions where it's 'harder'. That's why there are so many guns in Rochester...a lot of demand to protect those street corners, to be as armed as the next cat.

If your part of a black market operation whose weapons are being sent out of state you might want to rethink your business model. IMO you are in violation of federal law and you won't be dealing with sheriff Billy Bob. You will have the BATF folks breathing down your necks. There might be a whole bunch of states that have very relaxed gun laws. You still have an inventory with serial #s on record. You still have to be able to account for these transactions and who purchased them. If Jim Bob wants to purchase 50 hand guns and ship them up to New York when that serial # comes back to him well he has a lot of splainin to do to the BATF agents. If that weapon was used in a crime Jim Bob should be held just as responsible as the person who used the weapon. I have a quick thought about gun shows. 40 years ago when I first got out of the army my brother dragged me to my first gun show at our local Dome Arena. It was way more than people just buying guns. It was almost like a huge flea market for military memorabilia. I purchased a Kbar knife worn by a member of the 82nd Airborne who jumped into Normandy on D Day. The knife had all the provenance to go with including a picture of the paratrooper. I plunked down a 100 bucks no questions asked and would have paid twice the price. Somewhere between all my moves I lost the knife. The second most important thing I purchased at a gun show was a WW2 era red diamond insignia for the 5th infantry division, the same division my dad served in. I gave it to my dad and he didn't have much to say. He kept that patch on his dresser until he became terminally ill.I Gave it to my oldest son along with my dad's discharge papers. It meant something to my dad although he never expressed it to me. That was some of the best money I ever spent.

[MDlaxfan76]

well, that was a lot to simply say that there's risk in being part of the black market for guns. Risk and reward.

And yeah, the guns typically started out as 'legal' but are then modified, serial numbers gone, etc...and, of course, private sales aren't tracked at all in many states.

And lots of guns are stolen and enter the black market, no record thereafter of who has 'owned' them along the way, eventually into the hands of a criminal who uses it...where do you think most guns are stolen from? Yup, regions with lots and lots of legal guns...

It's a racket, and there's a lot of money to be made.

[cradleandshoot]

well, that was a lot to simply say that there's risk in being part of the black market for guns. Risk and reward.

And yeah, the guns typically started out as 'legal' but are then modified, serial numbers gone, etc...and, of course, private sales aren't tracked at all in many states.

And lots of guns are stolen and enter the black market, no record thereafter of who has 'owned' them along the way, eventually into the hands of a criminal who uses it...where do you think most guns are stolen from? Yup, regions with lots and lots of legal guns...

It's a racket, and there's a lot of money to be made.

The motivating factor behind most illegal activity is always money. Wanna take a stab at how many young Americans are dead because of smuggling fentanyl into the US? It doesn't get the headlines illegal weapons do but it is far more deadly than illegal weapons. The dead just come in dribs and drabs day after day, week after week, year after year. There is I guess one thing in common with smuggling guns and smuggling drugs. At the end of the day the attempts to stop both activities yield very few results. Risk vs reward.. you nailed it.

[Farfromgeneva]

Back to equating gun ownership with murder.

Here are few inconvenient facts:

US gun ownership per capita: #1 in the world (and over 2x that of the second place country)

US Murder rate per capita: #89 in the world in the low single digits per 100,000 as compared to the worst 10 that average over 45)

Interestingly enough not one of the top ten per-capita gun owning countries shows up in the top ten per-capita murder rate list!

Gee, maybe it isn't the guns!?

edit to add this link (which you can match up to TLD's link) https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/mur ... untry.html

Yup, there are worse places in the world...but we're multiples worse than all other peer developed economically countries...as I stated in my post above with specifics. And, yes, it's the guns, not the poverty that's the difference.

Be glad you ain't in some of those worst places.

I have to make an observation on your comments in red above. I don't think any gun shop owner with a lick of common sense not dulled by greed is going to sell a weapon outside the guidelines prescribed by their FFL. You want to risk your livelihood by selling weapons out the back door at midnight is something only an idiot would do. Those weapons have serial numbers that point back directly to you. If one of these weapons is used in a crime and is traced back to your shop.. your done, kiss your FFL goodbye. I'm sure that some dealers will take the chance. The risk is just not worth the benefit. When I purchased my 410 it was shipped to a store near my house that specializes in police gear. I went to pick it up, the owner made sure I filled out all the paper work correctly and then he called the FBI people who do back ground checks over the phone. For what it is worth the serial number on my shotgun goes right back to his store. I'm fairly certain if a weapon can be traced back to your shop and you don't have the proper paperwork for the transaction your in deep doo doo. It reminds me of so many of those corner bodegas that sell cases of beer out their back door at 3am. I guess greed can over rule common sense for many store owners. It is no secret that people who possess illegal weapons tick me off to end. IMO law enforcement should leave no stone unturned to trace these weapons back to where they came from and who sold them. I do know if the transaction involves the weapon crossing state lines that is a green light for the feds and the BATF to investigate and charge people with a crime on the federal level. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

you live in a state with strong gun laws, and serious enforcement.

I specifically was discussing how easy it is to get guns in regions where that's not the case, including the gun dealers who are quite willing to deal black market as well as the front of store legit business.

But don't need to go to them at the store, the gun shows are easy peasy to buy as many weapons as you like.

And gotta remember, when there's a buck to be made, people will find ways to make it...and where the gun culture doesn't give a cr-p about guns moving around, that's where the hustlers making a buck go to acquire the weapons to take back to the regions where it's 'harder'. That's why there are so many guns in Rochester...a lot of demand to protect those street corners, to be as armed as the next cat.

And those laws exist because of the “downstate” big city folk he blames for crushing.

[Farfromgeneva]

well, that was a lot to simply say that there's risk in being part of the black market for guns. Risk and reward.

And yeah, the guns typically started out as 'legal' but are then modified, serial numbers gone, etc...and, of course, private sales aren't tracked at all in many states.

And lots of guns are stolen and enter the black market, no record thereafter of who has 'owned' them along the way, eventually into the hands of a criminal who uses it...where do you think most guns are stolen from? Yup, regions with lots and lots of legal guns...

It's a racket, and there's a lot of money to be made.

The motivating factor behind most illegal activity is always money. Wanna take a stab at how many young Americans are dead because of smuggling fentanyl into the US? It doesn't get the headlines illegal weapons do but it is far more deadly than illegal weapons. The dead just come in dribs and drabs day after day, week after week, year after year. There is I guess one thing in common with smuggling guns and smuggling drugs. At the end of the day the attempts to stop both activities yield very few results. Risk vs reward.. you nailed it.

More fentanyl is out there due to unscrupulous pharmacists and folks in the legal supply chain than smuggled.