Sensible Gun Safety

[kramerica.inc]

California Governor Newsom, surrounded by armed security: “The Second Amendment is becoming a suicide pact.”

[NattyBohChamps04]

California Governor Newsom, surrounded by armed security: “The Second Amendment is becoming a suicide pact.”

And if crazy people didn't have access to guns, he wouldn't need armed security...

If crazy people didn't have access to guns, people wouldn't need armed security in dance halls or night clubs...

If crazy people didn't have access to guns, kids wouldn't need armed security in schools. Who still let them get slaughtered en masse...

It's like there's a recurring theme here...

[Farfromgeneva]

The more serious issue would be that someone like me, under the situation I described, would say 'yes' to this question. Once in my life. 50 years ago. Idiot that I was or am!

Moreover, have I ever heard a sound in the house and then, carrying a shotgun, made noises about being armed? Yup...that would count too, though I've never actually needed to confront a real intruder...usually it's just one of the downstairs doors has blown open...

So, I'm extremely skeptical of how often a homeowner has actually needed a gun to repel an intruder...versus "brandishing a weapon, I "protected" my home"...

And of course there's the example of the a-hole couple brandishing their weapons on their porch as peaceful BLM protestors went down the public street in their neighborhood...

Why don't you give us the stats percentage of how often a homeowner, confronting an actual intruder, actually ended up on the wrong end of that exchange?

and of course, the suicides...

Do you discount the value of guns for personal protection? Tell that to the 110 lb waitress on her way home after midnight. Or the rural family when the nearest deputy is 20 miles away. What would you do against a home invasion? They aren’t some impossibility. You want stats, look them up yourself. You posited the question about getting killed by your own gun. IMHO probably quite small in relation to lives saved. Let me know when you find out.

I haven't seen any stat from you about 'lives saved' just a survey that suggests people brandish their guns when they get concerned.

And the issue is that the criminal, when there actually is one, is very likely to be armed in a USA awash in weapons. Not so in other countries.

What matters is that we have many multiples of guns per civilian in our country than any other first world country and likewise many multiples of gun deaths. Very strong correlation. Same at the state level here in the US, strong correlation. We don't have greater mental health issues, more poverty, etc. Just way, way more guns.

I'm a gun owner and believe that we can have some types of guns safely, used safely, if we get serious about who has these guns, how they are stored, when and where they are used, etc.

With regard to the waitress, I'd rather see her have a safe ride home than carry a gun, scared of a criminal with a gun...what do waitresses in Great Britain do? France? Germany? Sweden? Japan? New Zealand? Canada?....

That’s the whole point. Can’t trust the links provided to support the claim typed by some. We’re seeing this repeatedly here. Seeing the quotes thread you got sucked into a claim to have a discussion but the claim wasn’t supported by the stated evidence source shared. (Pattern)

[Farfromgeneva]

The more serious issue would be that someone like me, under the situation I described, would say 'yes' to this question. Once in my life. 50 years ago. Idiot that I was or am!

Moreover, have I ever heard a sound in the house and then, carrying a shotgun, made noises about being armed? Yup...that would count too, though I've never actually needed to confront a real intruder...usually it's just one of the downstairs doors has blown open...

So, I'm extremely skeptical of how often a homeowner has actually needed a gun to repel an intruder...versus "brandishing a weapon, I "protected" my home"...

And of course there's the example of the a-hole couple brandishing their weapons on their porch as peaceful BLM protestors went down the public street in their neighborhood...

Why don't you give us the stats percentage of how often a homeowner, confronting an actual intruder, actually ended up on the wrong end of that exchange?

and of course, the suicides...

Do you discount the value of guns for personal protection? Tell that to the 110 lb waitress on her way home after midnight. Or the rural family when the nearest deputy is 20 miles away. What would you do against a home invasion? They aren’t some impossibility. You want stats, look them up yourself. You posited the question about getting killed by your own gun. IMHO probably quite small in relation to lives saved. Let me know when you find out.

I haven't seen any stat from you about 'lives saved' just a survey that suggests people brandish their guns when they get concerned.

And the issue is that the criminal, when there actually is one, is very likely to be armed in a USA awash in weapons. Not so in other countries.

What matters is that we have many multiples of guns per civilian in our country than any other first world country and likewise many multiples of gun deaths. Very strong correlation. Same at the state level here in the US, strong correlation. We don't have greater mental health issues, more poverty, etc. Just way, way more guns.

I'm a gun owner and believe that we can have some types of guns safely, used safely, if we get serious about who has these guns, how they are stored, when and where they are used, etc.

With regard to the waitress, I'd rather see her have a safe ride home than carry a gun, scared of a criminal with a gun...what do waitresses in Great Britain do? France? Germany? Sweden? Japan? New Zealand? Canada?....

Because what you would rather see is not based in the reality that waitress/ waiter lives with everyday. How does every restaurant provide a safe ride home to every vulnerable employee?? Does riding the subway home at 12am alone meet your guidelines for a safe ride home? Often times I wonder MD about any experience you have in the real world. What does that waitress or waiter do? Is there a phone number to secure a safe ride??? Where do thousands of restaurant workers find that safe ride home app? I know how it worked for my mom. She worked every night as the Chief Operator for Rochester Telephone office on Fitzhugh St. Her safe ride home was my dad and sometimes myself waiting to pick her out up at front of the door. Old fashioned chit there MD but it worked for my parents for 35 years. The world ain't the same as it was just 30 years ago when my mom was still working. The fact that any waitress/waiter/ restaurant employee has to fear for their life just getting home from tells volumes for the pathetic course our country is heading on.
This is anecdotal but par for the course for way too many criminals today. I don't have the link but recently a just released criminal stole a car, found a gun and robbed a jewelery store within hours of being released from prison. He was given an appearance ticket and sent on his way..Didn't the SOB steal another damn car, find another damn gun and commit another armed robbery at a fancy high end jewelery store in Pittsford, NY. I guess they finally decided there was no safe way home with this knucklehead. In a drastic measure by the local courts they actually made him post bail I believe he is now walking the streets on 2000 dollars bail. Last we heard he is waiting to steal another car, find another gun and rob another jewelery store. We can only hope he doesn't run into a waitress/waiter walking home from work at 12 am.

Real world experience? You think everyone is walking around in fear daily? Except black folks because Obama and gay folks because Christians are all nice people?

[Farfromgeneva]

School taxes are going up in Newport News VA

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/25/us/n ... board.html

Newport News School Was Warned 3 Times That 6-Year-Old Had a Gun, Lawyer Says
Another child saw the gun at recess, a teacher warned that the boy had a gun in his pocket and an administrator dismissed the threat, according to the lawyer for a teacher who was shot.

"NEWPORT NEWS, Va. — In the hours before a 6-year-old boy shot his first-grade teacher in Virginia this month, school leaders were warned three times that the boy might have a gun, a lawyer for the teacher said on Wednesday, including by a student who tearfully recounted seeing the gun at recess.

In announcing the teacher’s intent to file a lawsuit against the Newport News School District, the lawyer, Diane Toscano, laid out a series of escalating warnings that happened on Jan. 6, when the police say a 6-year-old boy took his mother’s gun from home, brought it to Richneck Elementary School and fired at his teacher, Abigail Zwerner, in a shooting that has shaken parents and teachers and led to a motion to fire the superintendent.

By about 12:30 p.m. on the day of the shooting, a teacher had searched the boy’s backpack, believing that he might have a gun, Ms. Toscano said. No gun was found, but the teacher reported to the school administration that she believed the boy had put the gun in his pocket before going outside for recess. Instead of searching the boy, Ms. Toscano said, an administrator dismissed the threat, saying that the 6-year-old “has little pockets.”

Around 1 p.m. — an hour before the shooting — another teacher reported that a student had come to the teacher crying, saying that the boy had shown him the gun at recess and threatened to shoot the student if he told anyone, Ms. Toscano said.

What did administrators do?” Ms. Toscano said at a news conference on Wednesday discussing plans to file the lawsuit. “Did administrators call the police? No. Did administrators lockdown the school? No. Did administrators evacuate the building? No. Did they confront the student? No.”

A third teacher also asked for permission to search the boy, Ms. Toscano said, but was told to wait, because the school day was almost over.

Shortly before 2 p.m., the police say, the boy pointed the gun at Ms. Zwerner and shot her in front of his classmates in their first-grade classroom.

A school board meeting is scheduled for Wednesday night to consider the job of the superintendent."

BTW there is no law in VA about securing a firearm in your home.

On your aside about school taxes…I wonder if the greeting and demographic shift where less citizens have young children (maybe grandchildren but monkey see monkey do and grandchildren would be more likely to be and feel a step removed when not being spoiled) is driving the “priorities” of guns for some and taxes/school
Funding in general.

[Farfromgeneva]

The more serious issue would be that someone like me, under the situation I described, would say 'yes' to this question. Once in my life. 50 years ago. Idiot that I was or am!

Moreover, have I ever heard a sound in the house and then, carrying a shotgun, made noises about being armed? Yup...that would count too, though I've never actually needed to confront a real intruder...usually it's just one of the downstairs doors has blown open...

So, I'm extremely skeptical of how often a homeowner has actually needed a gun to repel an intruder...versus "brandishing a weapon, I "protected" my home"...

And of course there's the example of the a-hole couple brandishing their weapons on their porch as peaceful BLM protestors went down the public street in their neighborhood...

Why don't you give us the stats percentage of how often a homeowner, confronting an actual intruder, actually ended up on the wrong end of that exchange?

and of course, the suicides...

Do you discount the value of guns for personal protection? Tell that to the 110 lb waitress on her way home after midnight. Or the rural family when the nearest deputy is 20 miles away. What would you do against a home invasion? They aren’t some impossibility. You want stats, look them up yourself. You posited the question about getting killed by your own gun. IMHO probably quite small in relation to lives saved. Let me know when you find out.

I haven't seen any stat from you about 'lives saved' just a survey that suggests people brandish their guns when they get concerned.

And the issue is that the criminal, when there actually is one, is very likely to be armed in a USA awash in weapons. Not so in other countries.

What matters is that we have many multiples of guns per civilian in our country than any other first world country and likewise many multiples of gun deaths. Very strong correlation. Same at the state level here in the US, strong correlation. We don't have greater mental health issues, more poverty, etc. Just way, way more guns.

I'm a gun owner and believe that we can have some types of guns safely, used safely, if we get serious about who has these guns, how they are stored, when and where they are used, etc.

With regard to the waitress, I'd rather see her have a safe ride home than carry a gun, scared of a criminal with a gun...what do waitresses in Great Britain do? France? Germany? Sweden? Japan? New Zealand? Canada?....

Your entire premise neglects to consider the criminal in the equation. The waitress doesn't want to carry the gun. It's probably a little scary to her, or any other person who is at a physical disadvantage with the criminal. The gun is an equalizer. I'd be fine with some gun laws that don't change the self defense aspect, but we should have very harsh sentences for anyone who commits a felony with a gun, say 25 years with no parole.

Yes, the issue is that criminals (and nutcases) have guns, easily, in the USA...we're awash in weapons because of our gun culture. That waitress does not have the same danger issues in those other countries, though there's always some degree of danger...but the answer there isn't to carry a gun...pepper spray is sufficient.

I don't ignore this at all.

I agree with you on harsh penalties for crimes committed with guns.

But I also want to dramatically reduce the number of guns in circulation, requiring registration of ALL weapons, else substantial penalties, and restrict when and where and how they can be used. For instance, some types of weapons should never be used away from a well-regulated gun range; indeed, that's where they should be stored.

Some guns can be used in specified ways, for specified purposes, eg hunting, but must be stored properly and usage should only by those well trained and licensed and where appropriate for such use. (I have never had to take a gun safety course, grandfathered from my childhood; I'm super safe when hunting and handling in transit...to the extent one can be with such a danger...but I know lots of people who are way less careful in their gun handling, putting themselves and others in danger...and there are no rules, requirements, restrictions, training etc as to how I store my guns at home. I could have a loaded gun by my bed, in my closet, next to my door, whatever...and is one always going to be sober, not depressed, no angry, not scared and thus potentially make a tragic mistake in a momentary lapse? )

I want gun manufacturers and each owner of a gun to be liable for how that gun is used, if used improperly. Put the economics squarely on those who profit and those who are negligent or worse. A manufacturer selling high capacity weapons with glorifying gun culture marketing should be liable for the use of the gun away from the highly regulated gun range...and an owner who fails to follow storage regulations should be liable for the use of a stolen gun, much less the sale or gift of the gun to someone not properly registered. What those liability levels are we could niggle on, but there should be economic incentives, at least, to modifying behavior.

If someone feels the need to have a gun for self-defense, let's start by admitting that really should never have to be the case, it's a failure of regulation and law enforcement.

But ok, it's a reality that there are some definable situations that could exist...then such availability for such potential use should require one heck of a lot of training, ongoing throughout the time in which that weapon is registered for such. Annual reviews required on handling and storage. Mental stability open to review as well.

Back to the criminals, yes, severe penalties.

The topic thread is "Sensible Gun Safety".

cradle,
I'm not going to separately respond to you as the above addresses amply, but I'm not ignoring you.
I picked my wife up at night when she had long hours, so that she wouldn't have to walk 6 blocks in transitional area of Boston. Was it truly necessary, probably not, but maybe...she did get her purse snatched one night, but that was right in front of me...I took off chasing him, but lost ground in my hard shoes and he in his sneakers, but a couple of guys going into their townhouse blew a police whistle as he ran past and the thief dropped the bag...police were there in less than 2 mins...so, yeah, having someone escort you can help, though no guarantee...if he'd had a gun, and held us up, it wouldn't have mattered if I had one too...he'd have been ready I wouldn't...

The point is that your example of waitresses is way less of an issue in countries in which it's much harder to obtain a gun.

So give your wife some pepper spray and drop her off at Mondawmin Mall in West Baltimore.

Like I said, I picked up my wife. Every bit as challenging a walk as 6 blocks from Mondawmin today would be.
In today's era, Uber is a beautiful alternative if there's nobody to do that pick up.

But are you really going to ignore everything else?

Yes everything else is going to be ignored including the reality in the stupid retort that criminals target opportunities which aren’t in poor areas. (Just like claiming you neglect thinking about the criminal side…in the USA…ignorantly/dishonestly assumes the environment is equal in other countries with respect to all other factors-same reason I push back to comparing us and scandanavian countries in anything especially healthcare)

The inability to distinguish planned/targeted crimes vs random crime by some os astounding.

[cradleandshoot]

The more serious issue would be that someone like me, under the situation I described, would say 'yes' to this question. Once in my life. 50 years ago. Idiot that I was or am!

Moreover, have I ever heard a sound in the house and then, carrying a shotgun, made noises about being armed? Yup...that would count too, though I've never actually needed to confront a real intruder...usually it's just one of the downstairs doors has blown open...

So, I'm extremely skeptical of how often a homeowner has actually needed a gun to repel an intruder...versus "brandishing a weapon, I "protected" my home"...

And of course there's the example of the a-hole couple brandishing their weapons on their porch as peaceful BLM protestors went down the public street in their neighborhood...

Why don't you give us the stats percentage of how often a homeowner, confronting an actual intruder, actually ended up on the wrong end of that exchange?

and of course, the suicides...

Do you discount the value of guns for personal protection? Tell that to the 110 lb waitress on her way home after midnight. Or the rural family when the nearest deputy is 20 miles away. What would you do against a home invasion? They aren’t some impossibility. You want stats, look them up yourself. You posited the question about getting killed by your own gun. IMHO probably quite small in relation to lives saved. Let me know when you find out.

I haven't seen any stat from you about 'lives saved' just a survey that suggests people brandish their guns when they get concerned.

And the issue is that the criminal, when there actually is one, is very likely to be armed in a USA awash in weapons. Not so in other countries.

What matters is that we have many multiples of guns per civilian in our country than any other first world country and likewise many multiples of gun deaths. Very strong correlation. Same at the state level here in the US, strong correlation. We don't have greater mental health issues, more poverty, etc. Just way, way more guns.

I'm a gun owner and believe that we can have some types of guns safely, used safely, if we get serious about who has these guns, how they are stored, when and where they are used, etc.

With regard to the waitress, I'd rather see her have a safe ride home than carry a gun, scared of a criminal with a gun...what do waitresses in Great Britain do? France? Germany? Sweden? Japan? New Zealand? Canada?....

Because what you would rather see is not based in the reality that waitress/ waiter lives with everyday. How does every restaurant provide a safe ride home to every vulnerable employee?? Does riding the subway home at 12am alone meet your guidelines for a safe ride home? Often times I wonder MD about any experience you have in the real world. What does that waitress or waiter do? Is there a phone number to secure a safe ride??? Where do thousands of restaurant workers find that safe ride home app? I know how it worked for my mom. She worked every night as the Chief Operator for Rochester Telephone office on Fitzhugh St. Her safe ride home was my dad and sometimes myself waiting to pick her out up at front of the door. Old fashioned chit there MD but it worked for my parents for 35 years. The world ain't the same as it was just 30 years ago when my mom was still working. The fact that any waitress/waiter/ restaurant employee has to fear for their life just getting home from tells volumes for the pathetic course our country is heading on.
This is anecdotal but par for the course for way too many criminals today. I don't have the link but recently a just released criminal stole a car, found a gun and robbed a jewelery store within hours of being released from prison. He was given an appearance ticket and sent on his way..Didn't the SOB steal another damn car, find another damn gun and commit another armed robbery at a fancy high end jewelery store in Pittsford, NY. I guess they finally decided there was no safe way home with this knucklehead. In a drastic measure by the local courts they actually made him post bail I believe he is now walking the streets on 2000 dollars bail. Last we heard he is waiting to steal another car, find another gun and rob another jewelery store. We can only hope he doesn't run into a waitress/waiter walking home from work at 12 am.

Real world experience? You think everyone is walking around in fear daily? Except black folks because Obama and gay folks because Christians are all nice people?

I think everyone is walking around in fear because here in the metropolis of Rochester there are mothers and grandmothers and other relatives that won't let their children play in the front yard like normal children do. Why is that?? You already know the answer. Yeah FFG, more and more people are living their lives in fear. When letting your kids play in your front yard is an invitation to them getting caught in the crossfire of some people that have a score to settle. Does your extensive vocabulary have a better word for fear?? Fear, or another word of your choosing is being ingrained in these children at a very young age. That is a very sad state of affairs.

[Farfromgeneva]

The more serious issue would be that someone like me, under the situation I described, would say 'yes' to this question. Once in my life. 50 years ago. Idiot that I was or am!

Moreover, have I ever heard a sound in the house and then, carrying a shotgun, made noises about being armed? Yup...that would count too, though I've never actually needed to confront a real intruder...usually it's just one of the downstairs doors has blown open...

So, I'm extremely skeptical of how often a homeowner has actually needed a gun to repel an intruder...versus "brandishing a weapon, I "protected" my home"...

And of course there's the example of the a-hole couple brandishing their weapons on their porch as peaceful BLM protestors went down the public street in their neighborhood...

Why don't you give us the stats percentage of how often a homeowner, confronting an actual intruder, actually ended up on the wrong end of that exchange?

and of course, the suicides...

Do you discount the value of guns for personal protection? Tell that to the 110 lb waitress on her way home after midnight. Or the rural family when the nearest deputy is 20 miles away. What would you do against a home invasion? They aren’t some impossibility. You want stats, look them up yourself. You posited the question about getting killed by your own gun. IMHO probably quite small in relation to lives saved. Let me know when you find out.

I haven't seen any stat from you about 'lives saved' just a survey that suggests people brandish their guns when they get concerned.

And the issue is that the criminal, when there actually is one, is very likely to be armed in a USA awash in weapons. Not so in other countries.

What matters is that we have many multiples of guns per civilian in our country than any other first world country and likewise many multiples of gun deaths. Very strong correlation. Same at the state level here in the US, strong correlation. We don't have greater mental health issues, more poverty, etc. Just way, way more guns.

I'm a gun owner and believe that we can have some types of guns safely, used safely, if we get serious about who has these guns, how they are stored, when and where they are used, etc.

With regard to the waitress, I'd rather see her have a safe ride home than carry a gun, scared of a criminal with a gun...what do waitresses in Great Britain do? France? Germany? Sweden? Japan? New Zealand? Canada?....

Because what you would rather see is not based in the reality that waitress/ waiter lives with everyday. How does every restaurant provide a safe ride home to every vulnerable employee?? Does riding the subway home at 12am alone meet your guidelines for a safe ride home? Often times I wonder MD about any experience you have in the real world. What does that waitress or waiter do? Is there a phone number to secure a safe ride??? Where do thousands of restaurant workers find that safe ride home app? I know how it worked for my mom. She worked every night as the Chief Operator for Rochester Telephone office on Fitzhugh St. Her safe ride home was my dad and sometimes myself waiting to pick her out up at front of the door. Old fashioned chit there MD but it worked for my parents for 35 years. The world ain't the same as it was just 30 years ago when my mom was still working. The fact that any waitress/waiter/ restaurant employee has to fear for their life just getting home from tells volumes for the pathetic course our country is heading on.
This is anecdotal but par for the course for way too many criminals today. I don't have the link but recently a just released criminal stole a car, found a gun and robbed a jewelery store within hours of being released from prison. He was given an appearance ticket and sent on his way..Didn't the SOB steal another damn car, find another damn gun and commit another armed robbery at a fancy high end jewelery store in Pittsford, NY. I guess they finally decided there was no safe way home with this knucklehead. In a drastic measure by the local courts they actually made him post bail I believe he is now walking the streets on 2000 dollars bail. Last we heard he is waiting to steal another car, find another gun and rob another jewelery store. We can only hope he doesn't run into a waitress/waiter walking home from work at 12 am.

Real world experience? You think everyone is walking around in fear daily? Except black folks because Obama and gay folks because Christians are all nice people?

I think everyone is walking around in fear because here in the metropolis of Rochester there are mothers and grandmothers and other relatives that won't let their children play in the front yard like normal children do. Why is that?? You already know the answer. Yeah FFG, more and more people are living their lives in fear. When letting your kids play in your front yard is an invitation to them getting caught in the crossfire of some people that have a score to settle. Does your extensive vocabulary have a better word for fear?? Fear, or another word of your choosing is being ingrained in these children at a very young age. That is a very sad state of affairs.

I don’t see it in a much larger city and I’m in town unlike the OTP (outside the perimeter) folks. I’m three blocks from a commercial area called Little Five Points where capital offense regularly occur and we’ve had car windows smashed in at least 4 times on our block in the last 12-15mo. And yet new young couples with children are paying up to move into this neighborhood all the time. The last sale was in Q4 and didn’t have much of a decline at all despite mortgage costs doubling since Jan 22. We’re talking $700k buy in for a 1,400sq Ft home type stuff here ans this isn’t the most expensive neighborhood by far in Atlanta. (Top 10 most expensive is likely true probably 5-8 territory)

I walk my kids to school regularly and I don’t see any of the parents or kids in fear.

Your anecdote fails to hold true universally. And I’m repping a larger and younger population here than you are.

[Farfromgeneva]

The more serious issue would be that someone like me, under the situation I described, would say 'yes' to this question. Once in my life. 50 years ago. Idiot that I was or am!

Moreover, have I ever heard a sound in the house and then, carrying a shotgun, made noises about being armed? Yup...that would count too, though I've never actually needed to confront a real intruder...usually it's just one of the downstairs doors has blown open...

So, I'm extremely skeptical of how often a homeowner has actually needed a gun to repel an intruder...versus "brandishing a weapon, I "protected" my home"...

And of course there's the example of the a-hole couple brandishing their weapons on their porch as peaceful BLM protestors went down the public street in their neighborhood...

Why don't you give us the stats percentage of how often a homeowner, confronting an actual intruder, actually ended up on the wrong end of that exchange?

and of course, the suicides...

Do you discount the value of guns for personal protection? Tell that to the 110 lb waitress on her way home after midnight. Or the rural family when the nearest deputy is 20 miles away. What would you do against a home invasion? They aren’t some impossibility. You want stats, look them up yourself. You posited the question about getting killed by your own gun. IMHO probably quite small in relation to lives saved. Let me know when you find out.

I haven't seen any stat from you about 'lives saved' just a survey that suggests people brandish their guns when they get concerned.

And the issue is that the criminal, when there actually is one, is very likely to be armed in a USA awash in weapons. Not so in other countries.

What matters is that we have many multiples of guns per civilian in our country than any other first world country and likewise many multiples of gun deaths. Very strong correlation. Same at the state level here in the US, strong correlation. We don't have greater mental health issues, more poverty, etc. Just way, way more guns.

I'm a gun owner and believe that we can have some types of guns safely, used safely, if we get serious about who has these guns, how they are stored, when and where they are used, etc.

With regard to the waitress, I'd rather see her have a safe ride home than carry a gun, scared of a criminal with a gun...what do waitresses in Great Britain do? France? Germany? Sweden? Japan? New Zealand? Canada?....

Because what you would rather see is not based in the reality that waitress/ waiter lives with everyday. How does every restaurant provide a safe ride home to every vulnerable employee?? Does riding the subway home at 12am alone meet your guidelines for a safe ride home? Often times I wonder MD about any experience you have in the real world. What does that waitress or waiter do? Is there a phone number to secure a safe ride??? Where do thousands of restaurant workers find that safe ride home app? I know how it worked for my mom. She worked every night as the Chief Operator for Rochester Telephone office on Fitzhugh St. Her safe ride home was my dad and sometimes myself waiting to pick her out up at front of the door. Old fashioned chit there MD but it worked for my parents for 35 years. The world ain't the same as it was just 30 years ago when my mom was still working. The fact that any waitress/waiter/ restaurant employee has to fear for their life just getting home from tells volumes for the pathetic course our country is heading on.
This is anecdotal but par for the course for way too many criminals today. I don't have the link but recently a just released criminal stole a car, found a gun and robbed a jewelery store within hours of being released from prison. He was given an appearance ticket and sent on his way..Didn't the SOB steal another damn car, find another damn gun and commit another armed robbery at a fancy high end jewelery store in Pittsford, NY. I guess they finally decided there was no safe way home with this knucklehead. In a drastic measure by the local courts they actually made him post bail I believe he is now walking the streets on 2000 dollars bail. Last we heard he is waiting to steal another car, find another gun and rob another jewelery store. We can only hope he doesn't run into a waitress/waiter walking home from work at 12 am.

Real world experience? You think everyone is walking around in fear daily? Except black folks because Obama and gay folks because Christians are all nice people?

I think everyone is walking around in fear because here in the metropolis of Rochester there are mothers and grandmothers and other relatives that won't let their children play in the front yard like normal children do. Why is that?? You already know the answer. Yeah FFG, more and more people are living their lives in fear. When letting your kids play in your front yard is an invitation to them getting caught in the crossfire of some people that have a score to settle. Does your extensive vocabulary have a better word for fear?? Fear, or another word of your choosing is being ingrained in these children at a very young age. That is a very sad state of affairs.

Fear monger

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xoLz7AdB_UI

[cradleandshoot]

The more serious issue would be that someone like me, under the situation I described, would say 'yes' to this question. Once in my life. 50 years ago. Idiot that I was or am!

Moreover, have I ever heard a sound in the house and then, carrying a shotgun, made noises about being armed? Yup...that would count too, though I've never actually needed to confront a real intruder...usually it's just one of the downstairs doors has blown open...

So, I'm extremely skeptical of how often a homeowner has actually needed a gun to repel an intruder...versus "brandishing a weapon, I "protected" my home"...

And of course there's the example of the a-hole couple brandishing their weapons on their porch as peaceful BLM protestors went down the public street in their neighborhood...

Why don't you give us the stats percentage of how often a homeowner, confronting an actual intruder, actually ended up on the wrong end of that exchange?

and of course, the suicides...

Do you discount the value of guns for personal protection? Tell that to the 110 lb waitress on her way home after midnight. Or the rural family when the nearest deputy is 20 miles away. What would you do against a home invasion? They aren’t some impossibility. You want stats, look them up yourself. You posited the question about getting killed by your own gun. IMHO probably quite small in relation to lives saved. Let me know when you find out.

I haven't seen any stat from you about 'lives saved' just a survey that suggests people brandish their guns when they get concerned.

And the issue is that the criminal, when there actually is one, is very likely to be armed in a USA awash in weapons. Not so in other countries.

What matters is that we have many multiples of guns per civilian in our country than any other first world country and likewise many multiples of gun deaths. Very strong correlation. Same at the state level here in the US, strong correlation. We don't have greater mental health issues, more poverty, etc. Just way, way more guns.

I'm a gun owner and believe that we can have some types of guns safely, used safely, if we get serious about who has these guns, how they are stored, when and where they are used, etc.

With regard to the waitress, I'd rather see her have a safe ride home than carry a gun, scared of a criminal with a gun...what do waitresses in Great Britain do? France? Germany? Sweden? Japan? New Zealand? Canada?....

Your entire premise neglects to consider the criminal in the equation. The waitress doesn't want to carry the gun. It's probably a little scary to her, or any other person who is at a physical disadvantage with the criminal. The gun is an equalizer. I'd be fine with some gun laws that don't change the self defense aspect, but we should have very harsh sentences for anyone who commits a felony with a gun, say 25 years with no parole.

Yes, the issue is that criminals (and nutcases) have guns, easily, in the USA...we're awash in weapons because of our gun culture. That waitress does not have the same danger issues in those other countries, though there's always some degree of danger...but the answer there isn't to carry a gun...pepper spray is sufficient.

I don't ignore this at all.

I agree with you on harsh penalties for crimes committed with guns.

But I also want to dramatically reduce the number of guns in circulation, requiring registration of ALL weapons, else substantial penalties, and restrict when and where and how they can be used. For instance, some types of weapons should never be used away from a well-regulated gun range; indeed, that's where they should be stored.

Some guns can be used in specified ways, for specified purposes, eg hunting, but must be stored properly and usage should only by those well trained and licensed and where appropriate for such use. (I have never had to take a gun safety course, grandfathered from my childhood; I'm super safe when hunting and handling in transit...to the extent one can be with such a danger...but I know lots of people who are way less careful in their gun handling, putting themselves and others in danger...and there are no rules, requirements, restrictions, training etc as to how I store my guns at home. I could have a loaded gun by my bed, in my closet, next to my door, whatever...and is one always going to be sober, not depressed, no angry, not scared and thus potentially make a tragic mistake in a momentary lapse? )

I want gun manufacturers and each owner of a gun to be liable for how that gun is used, if used improperly. Put the economics squarely on those who profit and those who are negligent or worse. A manufacturer selling high capacity weapons with glorifying gun culture marketing should be liable for the use of the gun away from the highly regulated gun range...and an owner who fails to follow storage regulations should be liable for the use of a stolen gun, much less the sale or gift of the gun to someone not properly registered. What those liability levels are we could niggle on, but there should be economic incentives, at least, to modifying behavior.

If someone feels the need to have a gun for self-defense, let's start by admitting that really should never have to be the case, it's a failure of regulation and law enforcement.

But ok, it's a reality that there are some definable situations that could exist...then such availability for such potential use should require one heck of a lot of training, ongoing throughout the time in which that weapon is registered for such. Annual reviews required on handling and storage. Mental stability open to review as well.

Back to the criminals, yes, severe penalties.

The topic thread is "Sensible Gun Safety".

cradle,
I'm not going to separately respond to you as the above addresses amply, but I'm not ignoring you.
I picked my wife up at night when she had long hours, so that she wouldn't have to walk 6 blocks in transitional area of Boston. Was it truly necessary, probably not, but maybe...she did get her purse snatched one night, but that was right in front of me...I took off chasing him, but lost ground in my hard shoes and he in his sneakers, but a couple of guys going into their townhouse blew a police whistle as he ran past and the thief dropped the bag...police were there in less than 2 mins...so, yeah, having someone escort you can help, though no guarantee...if he'd had a gun, and held us up, it wouldn't have mattered if I had one too...he'd have been ready I wouldn't...

The point is that your example of waitresses is way less of an issue in countries in which it's much harder to obtain a gun.

So give your wife some pepper spray and drop her off at Mondawmin Mall in West Baltimore.

Like I said, I picked up my wife. Every bit as challenging a walk as 6 blocks from Mondawmin today would be.
In today's era, Uber is a beautiful alternative if there's nobody to do that pick up.

But are you really going to ignore everything else?

Yes everything else is going to be ignored including the reality in the stupid retort that criminals target opportunities which aren’t in poor areas. (Just like claiming you neglect thinking about the criminal side…in the USA…ignorantly/dishonestly assumes the environment is equal in other countries with respect to all other factors-same reason I push back to comparing us and scandanavian countries in anything especially healthcare)

The inability to distinguish planned/targeted crimes vs random crime by some os astounding.

If your the victim of random violence do you really care if it was random violence or targeted violence. Your loved one is just as dead either way. There was a local dude who was blown away in a parking lot outside of a downtown nightclub. He was acquitted years back of being involved in a shooting at a local Boys and Girls club. He escaped several murder attempts in the past. I guess this is an example of targeted violence. There were people who wanted him dead and now he is. Sometimes street justice just gets the job done as barbaric as it is.

[cradleandshoot]

The more serious issue would be that someone like me, under the situation I described, would say 'yes' to this question. Once in my life. 50 years ago. Idiot that I was or am!

Moreover, have I ever heard a sound in the house and then, carrying a shotgun, made noises about being armed? Yup...that would count too, though I've never actually needed to confront a real intruder...usually it's just one of the downstairs doors has blown open...

So, I'm extremely skeptical of how often a homeowner has actually needed a gun to repel an intruder...versus "brandishing a weapon, I "protected" my home"...

And of course there's the example of the a-hole couple brandishing their weapons on their porch as peaceful BLM protestors went down the public street in their neighborhood...

Why don't you give us the stats percentage of how often a homeowner, confronting an actual intruder, actually ended up on the wrong end of that exchange?

and of course, the suicides...

Do you discount the value of guns for personal protection? Tell that to the 110 lb waitress on her way home after midnight. Or the rural family when the nearest deputy is 20 miles away. What would you do against a home invasion? They aren’t some impossibility. You want stats, look them up yourself. You posited the question about getting killed by your own gun. IMHO probably quite small in relation to lives saved. Let me know when you find out.

I haven't seen any stat from you about 'lives saved' just a survey that suggests people brandish their guns when they get concerned.

And the issue is that the criminal, when there actually is one, is very likely to be armed in a USA awash in weapons. Not so in other countries.

What matters is that we have many multiples of guns per civilian in our country than any other first world country and likewise many multiples of gun deaths. Very strong correlation. Same at the state level here in the US, strong correlation. We don't have greater mental health issues, more poverty, etc. Just way, way more guns.

I'm a gun owner and believe that we can have some types of guns safely, used safely, if we get serious about who has these guns, how they are stored, when and where they are used, etc.

With regard to the waitress, I'd rather see her have a safe ride home than carry a gun, scared of a criminal with a gun...what do waitresses in Great Britain do? France? Germany? Sweden? Japan? New Zealand? Canada?....

Because what you would rather see is not based in the reality that waitress/ waiter lives with everyday. How does every restaurant provide a safe ride home to every vulnerable employee?? Does riding the subway home at 12am alone meet your guidelines for a safe ride home? Often times I wonder MD about any experience you have in the real world. What does that waitress or waiter do? Is there a phone number to secure a safe ride??? Where do thousands of restaurant workers find that safe ride home app? I know how it worked for my mom. She worked every night as the Chief Operator for Rochester Telephone office on Fitzhugh St. Her safe ride home was my dad and sometimes myself waiting to pick her out up at front of the door. Old fashioned chit there MD but it worked for my parents for 35 years. The world ain't the same as it was just 30 years ago when my mom was still working. The fact that any waitress/waiter/ restaurant employee has to fear for their life just getting home from tells volumes for the pathetic course our country is heading on.
This is anecdotal but par for the course for way too many criminals today. I don't have the link but recently a just released criminal stole a car, found a gun and robbed a jewelery store within hours of being released from prison. He was given an appearance ticket and sent on his way..Didn't the SOB steal another damn car, find another damn gun and commit another armed robbery at a fancy high end jewelery store in Pittsford, NY. I guess they finally decided there was no safe way home with this knucklehead. In a drastic measure by the local courts they actually made him post bail I believe he is now walking the streets on 2000 dollars bail. Last we heard he is waiting to steal another car, find another gun and rob another jewelery store. We can only hope he doesn't run into a waitress/waiter walking home from work at 12 am.

Real world experience? You think everyone is walking around in fear daily? Except black folks because Obama and gay folks because Christians are all nice people?

I think everyone is walking around in fear because here in the metropolis of Rochester there are mothers and grandmothers and other relatives that won't let their children play in the front yard like normal children do. Why is that?? You already know the answer. Yeah FFG, more and more people are living their lives in fear. When letting your kids play in your front yard is an invitation to them getting caught in the crossfire of some people that have a score to settle. Does your extensive vocabulary have a better word for fear?? Fear, or another word of your choosing is being ingrained in these children at a very young age. That is a very sad state of affairs.

Fear monger

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xoLz7AdB_UI

Wrong again. I do understand how fear imposes its will on people who just want to live their lives in peace.

[Farfromgeneva]

The more serious issue would be that someone like me, under the situation I described, would say 'yes' to this question. Once in my life. 50 years ago. Idiot that I was or am!

Moreover, have I ever heard a sound in the house and then, carrying a shotgun, made noises about being armed? Yup...that would count too, though I've never actually needed to confront a real intruder...usually it's just one of the downstairs doors has blown open...

So, I'm extremely skeptical of how often a homeowner has actually needed a gun to repel an intruder...versus "brandishing a weapon, I "protected" my home"...

And of course there's the example of the a-hole couple brandishing their weapons on their porch as peaceful BLM protestors went down the public street in their neighborhood...

Why don't you give us the stats percentage of how often a homeowner, confronting an actual intruder, actually ended up on the wrong end of that exchange?

and of course, the suicides...

Do you discount the value of guns for personal protection? Tell that to the 110 lb waitress on her way home after midnight. Or the rural family when the nearest deputy is 20 miles away. What would you do against a home invasion? They aren’t some impossibility. You want stats, look them up yourself. You posited the question about getting killed by your own gun. IMHO probably quite small in relation to lives saved. Let me know when you find out.

I haven't seen any stat from you about 'lives saved' just a survey that suggests people brandish their guns when they get concerned.

And the issue is that the criminal, when there actually is one, is very likely to be armed in a USA awash in weapons. Not so in other countries.

What matters is that we have many multiples of guns per civilian in our country than any other first world country and likewise many multiples of gun deaths. Very strong correlation. Same at the state level here in the US, strong correlation. We don't have greater mental health issues, more poverty, etc. Just way, way more guns.

I'm a gun owner and believe that we can have some types of guns safely, used safely, if we get serious about who has these guns, how they are stored, when and where they are used, etc.

With regard to the waitress, I'd rather see her have a safe ride home than carry a gun, scared of a criminal with a gun...what do waitresses in Great Britain do? France? Germany? Sweden? Japan? New Zealand? Canada?....

Your entire premise neglects to consider the criminal in the equation. The waitress doesn't want to carry the gun. It's probably a little scary to her, or any other person who is at a physical disadvantage with the criminal. The gun is an equalizer. I'd be fine with some gun laws that don't change the self defense aspect, but we should have very harsh sentences for anyone who commits a felony with a gun, say 25 years with no parole.

Yes, the issue is that criminals (and nutcases) have guns, easily, in the USA...we're awash in weapons because of our gun culture. That waitress does not have the same danger issues in those other countries, though there's always some degree of danger...but the answer there isn't to carry a gun...pepper spray is sufficient.

I don't ignore this at all.

I agree with you on harsh penalties for crimes committed with guns.

But I also want to dramatically reduce the number of guns in circulation, requiring registration of ALL weapons, else substantial penalties, and restrict when and where and how they can be used. For instance, some types of weapons should never be used away from a well-regulated gun range; indeed, that's where they should be stored.

Some guns can be used in specified ways, for specified purposes, eg hunting, but must be stored properly and usage should only by those well trained and licensed and where appropriate for such use. (I have never had to take a gun safety course, grandfathered from my childhood; I'm super safe when hunting and handling in transit...to the extent one can be with such a danger...but I know lots of people who are way less careful in their gun handling, putting themselves and others in danger...and there are no rules, requirements, restrictions, training etc as to how I store my guns at home. I could have a loaded gun by my bed, in my closet, next to my door, whatever...and is one always going to be sober, not depressed, no angry, not scared and thus potentially make a tragic mistake in a momentary lapse? )

I want gun manufacturers and each owner of a gun to be liable for how that gun is used, if used improperly. Put the economics squarely on those who profit and those who are negligent or worse. A manufacturer selling high capacity weapons with glorifying gun culture marketing should be liable for the use of the gun away from the highly regulated gun range...and an owner who fails to follow storage regulations should be liable for the use of a stolen gun, much less the sale or gift of the gun to someone not properly registered. What those liability levels are we could niggle on, but there should be economic incentives, at least, to modifying behavior.

If someone feels the need to have a gun for self-defense, let's start by admitting that really should never have to be the case, it's a failure of regulation and law enforcement.

But ok, it's a reality that there are some definable situations that could exist...then such availability for such potential use should require one heck of a lot of training, ongoing throughout the time in which that weapon is registered for such. Annual reviews required on handling and storage. Mental stability open to review as well.

Back to the criminals, yes, severe penalties.

The topic thread is "Sensible Gun Safety".

cradle,
I'm not going to separately respond to you as the above addresses amply, but I'm not ignoring you.
I picked my wife up at night when she had long hours, so that she wouldn't have to walk 6 blocks in transitional area of Boston. Was it truly necessary, probably not, but maybe...she did get her purse snatched one night, but that was right in front of me...I took off chasing him, but lost ground in my hard shoes and he in his sneakers, but a couple of guys going into their townhouse blew a police whistle as he ran past and the thief dropped the bag...police were there in less than 2 mins...so, yeah, having someone escort you can help, though no guarantee...if he'd had a gun, and held us up, it wouldn't have mattered if I had one too...he'd have been ready I wouldn't...

The point is that your example of waitresses is way less of an issue in countries in which it's much harder to obtain a gun.

So give your wife some pepper spray and drop her off at Mondawmin Mall in West Baltimore.

Like I said, I picked up my wife. Every bit as challenging a walk as 6 blocks from Mondawmin today would be.
In today's era, Uber is a beautiful alternative if there's nobody to do that pick up.

But are you really going to ignore everything else?

Yes everything else is going to be ignored including the reality in the stupid retort that criminals target opportunities which aren’t in poor areas. (Just like claiming you neglect thinking about the criminal side…in the USA…ignorantly/dishonestly assumes the environment is equal in other countries with respect to all other factors-same reason I push back to comparing us and scandanavian countries in anything especially healthcare)

The inability to distinguish planned/targeted crimes vs random crime by some os astounding.

If your the victim of random violence do you really care if it was random violence or targeted violence. Your loved one is just as dead either way. There was a local dude who was blown away in a parking lot outside of a downtown nightclub. He was acquitted years back of being involved in a shooting at a local Boys and Girls club. He escaped several murder attempts in the past. I guess this is an example of targeted violence. There were people who wanted him dead and now he is. Sometimes street justice just gets the job done as barbaric as it is.

One should care. Most crime isn’t personal. It feels that way, I’ve had my car broken into three times in 5-6yrs, lost three computers because I’m an a-hole for being tired late or running back to my office for five min while leaving my computer bag in the car (once in my corporate office below grade deck of a 300k sq Fr office building in midtown) etc. I had a cousin as documented murdered in a mass shooting. Other crime has affected myself and my family and I still find the reasonable and responsible thing is to have the EQ to take a step back and think before changing my entire life around this.

People need to be and do better. Not impose their will in everyone else because of a single or few experiences. You don’t want anyone to be or do better just impose rules, restrictions and create an environment where fear is institutionally embedded. That’s what your advocating for here.

[Farfromgeneva]

The more serious issue would be that someone like me, under the situation I described, would say 'yes' to this question. Once in my life. 50 years ago. Idiot that I was or am!

Moreover, have I ever heard a sound in the house and then, carrying a shotgun, made noises about being armed? Yup...that would count too, though I've never actually needed to confront a real intruder...usually it's just one of the downstairs doors has blown open...

So, I'm extremely skeptical of how often a homeowner has actually needed a gun to repel an intruder...versus "brandishing a weapon, I "protected" my home"...

And of course there's the example of the a-hole couple brandishing their weapons on their porch as peaceful BLM protestors went down the public street in their neighborhood...

Why don't you give us the stats percentage of how often a homeowner, confronting an actual intruder, actually ended up on the wrong end of that exchange?

and of course, the suicides...

Do you discount the value of guns for personal protection? Tell that to the 110 lb waitress on her way home after midnight. Or the rural family when the nearest deputy is 20 miles away. What would you do against a home invasion? They aren’t some impossibility. You want stats, look them up yourself. You posited the question about getting killed by your own gun. IMHO probably quite small in relation to lives saved. Let me know when you find out.

I haven't seen any stat from you about 'lives saved' just a survey that suggests people brandish their guns when they get concerned.

And the issue is that the criminal, when there actually is one, is very likely to be armed in a USA awash in weapons. Not so in other countries.

What matters is that we have many multiples of guns per civilian in our country than any other first world country and likewise many multiples of gun deaths. Very strong correlation. Same at the state level here in the US, strong correlation. We don't have greater mental health issues, more poverty, etc. Just way, way more guns.

I'm a gun owner and believe that we can have some types of guns safely, used safely, if we get serious about who has these guns, how they are stored, when and where they are used, etc.

With regard to the waitress, I'd rather see her have a safe ride home than carry a gun, scared of a criminal with a gun...what do waitresses in Great Britain do? France? Germany? Sweden? Japan? New Zealand? Canada?....

Because what you would rather see is not based in the reality that waitress/ waiter lives with everyday. How does every restaurant provide a safe ride home to every vulnerable employee?? Does riding the subway home at 12am alone meet your guidelines for a safe ride home? Often times I wonder MD about any experience you have in the real world. What does that waitress or waiter do? Is there a phone number to secure a safe ride??? Where do thousands of restaurant workers find that safe ride home app? I know how it worked for my mom. She worked every night as the Chief Operator for Rochester Telephone office on Fitzhugh St. Her safe ride home was my dad and sometimes myself waiting to pick her out up at front of the door. Old fashioned chit there MD but it worked for my parents for 35 years. The world ain't the same as it was just 30 years ago when my mom was still working. The fact that any waitress/waiter/ restaurant employee has to fear for their life just getting home from tells volumes for the pathetic course our country is heading on.
This is anecdotal but par for the course for way too many criminals today. I don't have the link but recently a just released criminal stole a car, found a gun and robbed a jewelery store within hours of being released from prison. He was given an appearance ticket and sent on his way..Didn't the SOB steal another damn car, find another damn gun and commit another armed robbery at a fancy high end jewelery store in Pittsford, NY. I guess they finally decided there was no safe way home with this knucklehead. In a drastic measure by the local courts they actually made him post bail I believe he is now walking the streets on 2000 dollars bail. Last we heard he is waiting to steal another car, find another gun and rob another jewelery store. We can only hope he doesn't run into a waitress/waiter walking home from work at 12 am.

Real world experience? You think everyone is walking around in fear daily? Except black folks because Obama and gay folks because Christians are all nice people?

I think everyone is walking around in fear because here in the metropolis of Rochester there are mothers and grandmothers and other relatives that won't let their children play in the front yard like normal children do. Why is that?? You already know the answer. Yeah FFG, more and more people are living their lives in fear. When letting your kids play in your front yard is an invitation to them getting caught in the crossfire of some people that have a score to settle. Does your extensive vocabulary have a better word for fear?? Fear, or another word of your choosing is being ingrained in these children at a very young age. That is a very sad state of affairs.

Fear monger

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xoLz7AdB_UI

Wrong again. I do understand how fear imposes its will on people who just want to live their lives in peace.

Or not wrong. You clearly don’t understand.

Folks talk about toughness. Toughness isn’t merely surviving, it’s continuing to move forward not regressing when something sideways happens (exogenous event).

[cradleandshoot]

The more serious issue would be that someone like me, under the situation I described, would say 'yes' to this question. Once in my life. 50 years ago. Idiot that I was or am!

Moreover, have I ever heard a sound in the house and then, carrying a shotgun, made noises about being armed? Yup...that would count too, though I've never actually needed to confront a real intruder...usually it's just one of the downstairs doors has blown open...

So, I'm extremely skeptical of how often a homeowner has actually needed a gun to repel an intruder...versus "brandishing a weapon, I "protected" my home"...

And of course there's the example of the a-hole couple brandishing their weapons on their porch as peaceful BLM protestors went down the public street in their neighborhood...

Why don't you give us the stats percentage of how often a homeowner, confronting an actual intruder, actually ended up on the wrong end of that exchange?

and of course, the suicides...

Do you discount the value of guns for personal protection? Tell that to the 110 lb waitress on her way home after midnight. Or the rural family when the nearest deputy is 20 miles away. What would you do against a home invasion? They aren’t some impossibility. You want stats, look them up yourself. You posited the question about getting killed by your own gun. IMHO probably quite small in relation to lives saved. Let me know when you find out.

I haven't seen any stat from you about 'lives saved' just a survey that suggests people brandish their guns when they get concerned.

And the issue is that the criminal, when there actually is one, is very likely to be armed in a USA awash in weapons. Not so in other countries.

What matters is that we have many multiples of guns per civilian in our country than any other first world country and likewise many multiples of gun deaths. Very strong correlation. Same at the state level here in the US, strong correlation. We don't have greater mental health issues, more poverty, etc. Just way, way more guns.

I'm a gun owner and believe that we can have some types of guns safely, used safely, if we get serious about who has these guns, how they are stored, when and where they are used, etc.

With regard to the waitress, I'd rather see her have a safe ride home than carry a gun, scared of a criminal with a gun...what do waitresses in Great Britain do? France? Germany? Sweden? Japan? New Zealand? Canada?....

Your entire premise neglects to consider the criminal in the equation. The waitress doesn't want to carry the gun. It's probably a little scary to her, or any other person who is at a physical disadvantage with the criminal. The gun is an equalizer. I'd be fine with some gun laws that don't change the self defense aspect, but we should have very harsh sentences for anyone who commits a felony with a gun, say 25 years with no parole.

Yes, the issue is that criminals (and nutcases) have guns, easily, in the USA...we're awash in weapons because of our gun culture. That waitress does not have the same danger issues in those other countries, though there's always some degree of danger...but the answer there isn't to carry a gun...pepper spray is sufficient.

I don't ignore this at all.

I agree with you on harsh penalties for crimes committed with guns.

But I also want to dramatically reduce the number of guns in circulation, requiring registration of ALL weapons, else substantial penalties, and restrict when and where and how they can be used. For instance, some types of weapons should never be used away from a well-regulated gun range; indeed, that's where they should be stored.

Some guns can be used in specified ways, for specified purposes, eg hunting, but must be stored properly and usage should only by those well trained and licensed and where appropriate for such use. (I have never had to take a gun safety course, grandfathered from my childhood; I'm super safe when hunting and handling in transit...to the extent one can be with such a danger...but I know lots of people who are way less careful in their gun handling, putting themselves and others in danger...and there are no rules, requirements, restrictions, training etc as to how I store my guns at home. I could have a loaded gun by my bed, in my closet, next to my door, whatever...and is one always going to be sober, not depressed, no angry, not scared and thus potentially make a tragic mistake in a momentary lapse? )

I want gun manufacturers and each owner of a gun to be liable for how that gun is used, if used improperly. Put the economics squarely on those who profit and those who are negligent or worse. A manufacturer selling high capacity weapons with glorifying gun culture marketing should be liable for the use of the gun away from the highly regulated gun range...and an owner who fails to follow storage regulations should be liable for the use of a stolen gun, much less the sale or gift of the gun to someone not properly registered. What those liability levels are we could niggle on, but there should be economic incentives, at least, to modifying behavior.

If someone feels the need to have a gun for self-defense, let's start by admitting that really should never have to be the case, it's a failure of regulation and law enforcement.

But ok, it's a reality that there are some definable situations that could exist...then such availability for such potential use should require one heck of a lot of training, ongoing throughout the time in which that weapon is registered for such. Annual reviews required on handling and storage. Mental stability open to review as well.

Back to the criminals, yes, severe penalties.

The topic thread is "Sensible Gun Safety".

cradle,
I'm not going to separately respond to you as the above addresses amply, but I'm not ignoring you.
I picked my wife up at night when she had long hours, so that she wouldn't have to walk 6 blocks in transitional area of Boston. Was it truly necessary, probably not, but maybe...she did get her purse snatched one night, but that was right in front of me...I took off chasing him, but lost ground in my hard shoes and he in his sneakers, but a couple of guys going into their townhouse blew a police whistle as he ran past and the thief dropped the bag...police were there in less than 2 mins...so, yeah, having someone escort you can help, though no guarantee...if he'd had a gun, and held us up, it wouldn't have mattered if I had one too...he'd have been ready I wouldn't...

The point is that your example of waitresses is way less of an issue in countries in which it's much harder to obtain a gun.

So give your wife some pepper spray and drop her off at Mondawmin Mall in West Baltimore.

Like I said, I picked up my wife. Every bit as challenging a walk as 6 blocks from Mondawmin today would be.
In today's era, Uber is a beautiful alternative if there's nobody to do that pick up.

But are you really going to ignore everything else?

Yes everything else is going to be ignored including the reality in the stupid retort that criminals target opportunities which aren’t in poor areas. (Just like claiming you neglect thinking about the criminal side…in the USA…ignorantly/dishonestly assumes the environment is equal in other countries with respect to all other factors-same reason I push back to comparing us and scandanavian countries in anything especially healthcare)

The inability to distinguish planned/targeted crimes vs random crime by some os astounding.

If your the victim of random violence do you really care if it was random violence or targeted violence. Your loved one is just as dead either way. There was a local dude who was blown away in a parking lot outside of a downtown nightclub. He was acquitted years back of being involved in a shooting at a local Boys and Girls club. He escaped several murder attempts in the past. I guess this is an example of targeted violence. There were people who wanted him dead and now he is. Sometimes street justice just gets the job done as barbaric as it is.

One should care. Most crime isn’t personal. It feels that way, I’ve had my car broken into three times in 5-6yrs, lost three computers because I’m an a-hole for being tired late or running back to my office for five min while leaving my computer bag in the car (once in my corporate office below grade deck of a 300k sq Fr office building in midtown) etc. I had a cousin as documented murdered in a mass shooting. Other crime has affected myself and my family and I still find the reasonable and responsible thing is to have the EQ to take a step back and think before changing my entire life around this.

People need to be and do better. Not impose their will in everyone else because of a single or few experiences. You don’t want anyone to be or do better just impose rules, restrictions and create an environment where fear is institutionally embedded. That’s what your advocating for here.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/vi ... r-AA16EHtY This was a classic example of a targeted shooting. The only other possibility is this young lad stepped into that parking lot and got in the way of a flock of bullets flying south for the winter. FTR, I am the polar opposite of preaching fear to anyone. Hell I'm not afraid of dying yet I have no death wish. It is that "circle of life" thing. Is it normal to be afraid or feel fear?? I made 37 static line parachute jumps with the 82nd Airborne. I was afraid every effing time I jumped. The fear never trumped the exhilaration after hitting the ground. There is no more intense feeling when the air force loadmaster opens the door on the plane and the red light comes on. You would have to be there to understand the feeling. I'm not talking about Hollywood jumps, I'm talking about a night jump in full gear. To quote Tim Taylor... whoof whoof whoof .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fie3m768zN4 Watching this video brings back alot of memories. We rarely jumped when the sun was shining. We jumped at night... My only critique of the video is it was a Hollywood jump. There was no weapons case strapped to your side and no ruck sack rigged below the reserve with the lowering line properly rigged so you would not land on your weapon and your ruck sack when you hit the ground. My most favorite adventure was a night jump on Salerno DZ. I was the last jumper out of the plane. The first bad omen was there was nothing but darkness below me. To my left was the light area that told me that is where the DZ was. I had already jumped and released my 15 foot lowering line. I was heading for the effing trees, my weapon and my gear were headed towards another tree. Needless to say that in the middle of the night I was hanging 40 feet up from a carolina pine tree while my weapon and my gear was hanging from a different tree. I had no idea how far off the ground I was. I used my airborne training and used the tecnique we were taught. I dropped my steel pot and counted 3 seconds until it hit ground. I was around thirty feet up in the air in a very messed up situation. Yet again I did what I was trained to do. I pulled the handle on my reserve chute and let it deploy below me. I popped the straps on my my main chute and wiggled out of the harness and shimmied down to the ground. My problem was solved until the sun came up. My weapon and my gear were hanging from another tree. I was close to the road at the end of the DZ. It was a short wait until a major and his driver saw me and pulled over. The major was the coolest cat I ever came across. He gave me huge props for getting down out of the tree. He laughed his off when i told him my weapon was stuck along with my gear in another tree. He handed me the axe from his jeep, problem solved. No way in hell I was going to leave that DZ without my weapon and starlight scope and my gear. This is my thread hijack. It was one of those many experiences in my life where you just had to be there.

FTR I kept that reserve handle from my chute. I don't know why but I did. I somehow managed to not lose it over the years. I gave it to my oldest son a couple of years ago and gave him the background of that night,. When my son thanked me for the handle and the story behind it for the first time since that night I felt my service to my country actually meant something. I have not felt that feeling in a long time. I'm proud of my fellow soldiers and the hardships we endured together. Outside of that, I don't know anymore. When my dad died the honor guard folded his flag and gave it to me from a grateful nation. If we really are a grateful nation how come we never act like it anymore??

[Farfromgeneva]

The more serious issue would be that someone like me, under the situation I described, would say 'yes' to this question. Once in my life. 50 years ago. Idiot that I was or am!

Moreover, have I ever heard a sound in the house and then, carrying a shotgun, made noises about being armed? Yup...that would count too, though I've never actually needed to confront a real intruder...usually it's just one of the downstairs doors has blown open...

So, I'm extremely skeptical of how often a homeowner has actually needed a gun to repel an intruder...versus "brandishing a weapon, I "protected" my home"...

And of course there's the example of the a-hole couple brandishing their weapons on their porch as peaceful BLM protestors went down the public street in their neighborhood...

Why don't you give us the stats percentage of how often a homeowner, confronting an actual intruder, actually ended up on the wrong end of that exchange?

and of course, the suicides...

Do you discount the value of guns for personal protection? Tell that to the 110 lb waitress on her way home after midnight. Or the rural family when the nearest deputy is 20 miles away. What would you do against a home invasion? They aren’t some impossibility. You want stats, look them up yourself. You posited the question about getting killed by your own gun. IMHO probably quite small in relation to lives saved. Let me know when you find out.

I haven't seen any stat from you about 'lives saved' just a survey that suggests people brandish their guns when they get concerned.

And the issue is that the criminal, when there actually is one, is very likely to be armed in a USA awash in weapons. Not so in other countries.

What matters is that we have many multiples of guns per civilian in our country than any other first world country and likewise many multiples of gun deaths. Very strong correlation. Same at the state level here in the US, strong correlation. We don't have greater mental health issues, more poverty, etc. Just way, way more guns.

I'm a gun owner and believe that we can have some types of guns safely, used safely, if we get serious about who has these guns, how they are stored, when and where they are used, etc.

With regard to the waitress, I'd rather see her have a safe ride home than carry a gun, scared of a criminal with a gun...what do waitresses in Great Britain do? France? Germany? Sweden? Japan? New Zealand? Canada?....

Your entire premise neglects to consider the criminal in the equation. The waitress doesn't want to carry the gun. It's probably a little scary to her, or any other person who is at a physical disadvantage with the criminal. The gun is an equalizer. I'd be fine with some gun laws that don't change the self defense aspect, but we should have very harsh sentences for anyone who commits a felony with a gun, say 25 years with no parole.

Yes, the issue is that criminals (and nutcases) have guns, easily, in the USA...we're awash in weapons because of our gun culture. That waitress does not have the same danger issues in those other countries, though there's always some degree of danger...but the answer there isn't to carry a gun...pepper spray is sufficient.

I don't ignore this at all.

I agree with you on harsh penalties for crimes committed with guns.

But I also want to dramatically reduce the number of guns in circulation, requiring registration of ALL weapons, else substantial penalties, and restrict when and where and how they can be used. For instance, some types of weapons should never be used away from a well-regulated gun range; indeed, that's where they should be stored.

Some guns can be used in specified ways, for specified purposes, eg hunting, but must be stored properly and usage should only by those well trained and licensed and where appropriate for such use. (I have never had to take a gun safety course, grandfathered from my childhood; I'm super safe when hunting and handling in transit...to the extent one can be with such a danger...but I know lots of people who are way less careful in their gun handling, putting themselves and others in danger...and there are no rules, requirements, restrictions, training etc as to how I store my guns at home. I could have a loaded gun by my bed, in my closet, next to my door, whatever...and is one always going to be sober, not depressed, no angry, not scared and thus potentially make a tragic mistake in a momentary lapse? )

I want gun manufacturers and each owner of a gun to be liable for how that gun is used, if used improperly. Put the economics squarely on those who profit and those who are negligent or worse. A manufacturer selling high capacity weapons with glorifying gun culture marketing should be liable for the use of the gun away from the highly regulated gun range...and an owner who fails to follow storage regulations should be liable for the use of a stolen gun, much less the sale or gift of the gun to someone not properly registered. What those liability levels are we could niggle on, but there should be economic incentives, at least, to modifying behavior.

If someone feels the need to have a gun for self-defense, let's start by admitting that really should never have to be the case, it's a failure of regulation and law enforcement.

But ok, it's a reality that there are some definable situations that could exist...then such availability for such potential use should require one heck of a lot of training, ongoing throughout the time in which that weapon is registered for such. Annual reviews required on handling and storage. Mental stability open to review as well.

Back to the criminals, yes, severe penalties.

The topic thread is "Sensible Gun Safety".

cradle,
I'm not going to separately respond to you as the above addresses amply, but I'm not ignoring you.
I picked my wife up at night when she had long hours, so that she wouldn't have to walk 6 blocks in transitional area of Boston. Was it truly necessary, probably not, but maybe...she did get her purse snatched one night, but that was right in front of me...I took off chasing him, but lost ground in my hard shoes and he in his sneakers, but a couple of guys going into their townhouse blew a police whistle as he ran past and the thief dropped the bag...police were there in less than 2 mins...so, yeah, having someone escort you can help, though no guarantee...if he'd had a gun, and held us up, it wouldn't have mattered if I had one too...he'd have been ready I wouldn't...

The point is that your example of waitresses is way less of an issue in countries in which it's much harder to obtain a gun.

So give your wife some pepper spray and drop her off at Mondawmin Mall in West Baltimore.

Like I said, I picked up my wife. Every bit as challenging a walk as 6 blocks from Mondawmin today would be.
In today's era, Uber is a beautiful alternative if there's nobody to do that pick up.

But are you really going to ignore everything else?

Yes everything else is going to be ignored including the reality in the stupid retort that criminals target opportunities which aren’t in poor areas. (Just like claiming you neglect thinking about the criminal side…in the USA…ignorantly/dishonestly assumes the environment is equal in other countries with respect to all other factors-same reason I push back to comparing us and scandanavian countries in anything especially healthcare)

The inability to distinguish planned/targeted crimes vs random crime by some os astounding.

If your the victim of random violence do you really care if it was random violence or targeted violence. Your loved one is just as dead either way. There was a local dude who was blown away in a parking lot outside of a downtown nightclub. He was acquitted years back of being involved in a shooting at a local Boys and Girls club. He escaped several murder attempts in the past. I guess this is an example of targeted violence. There were people who wanted him dead and now he is. Sometimes street justice just gets the job done as barbaric as it is.

One should care. Most crime isn’t personal. It feels that way, I’ve had my car broken into three times in 5-6yrs, lost three computers because I’m an a-hole for being tired late or running back to my office for five min while leaving my computer bag in the car (once in my corporate office below grade deck of a 300k sq Fr office building in midtown) etc. I had a cousin as documented murdered in a mass shooting. Other crime has affected myself and my family and I still find the reasonable and responsible thing is to have the EQ to take a step back and think before changing my entire life around this.

People need to be and do better. Not impose their will in everyone else because of a single or few experiences. You don’t want anyone to be or do better just impose rules, restrictions and create an environment where fear is institutionally embedded. That’s what your advocating for here.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/vi ... r-AA16EHtY This was a classic example of a targeted shooting. The only other possibility is this young lad stepped into that parking lot and got in the way of a flock of bullets flying south for the winter. FTR, I am the polar opposite of preaching fear to anyone. Hell I'm not afraid of dying yet I have no death wish. It is that "circle of life" thing. Is it normal to be afraid or feel fear?? I made 37 static line parachute jumps with the 82nd Airborne. I was afraid every effing time I jumped. The fear never trumped the exhilaration after hitting the ground. There is no more intense feeling when the air force loadmaster opens the door on the plane and the red light comes on. You would have to be there to understand the feeling. I'm not talking about Hollywood jumps, I'm talking about a night jump in full gear. To quote Tim Taylor... whoof whoof whoof .

Fear can be healthy. It’s how it’s processed and responded to that matters. Not being reactionary, having empathy (thinking from others positions not ones own) and not creating or fostering the wrong environment and worse outcomes.

Understand it’s overused as an example and may have some technical issues but see the Stanford Prison experiment?

But honestly I don’t get your point here. There’s both types of crime. What are your proposed solutions other than raging and filtering everything through this incredibly narrow lens of Rochester am nowhere else?

[kramerica.inc]

The problem also becomes when the planned/targeted crimes ARE random crimes.

Targets of opportunity. Terror for fun.

My parents had an incident in Towsontownd mall on an elevator with their granddaughter. My dad now has his concealed carry. No fear, just an option, in a crazy world.

[cradleandshoot]

The more serious issue would be that someone like me, under the situation I described, would say 'yes' to this question. Once in my life. 50 years ago. Idiot that I was or am!

Moreover, have I ever heard a sound in the house and then, carrying a shotgun, made noises about being armed? Yup...that would count too, though I've never actually needed to confront a real intruder...usually it's just one of the downstairs doors has blown open...

So, I'm extremely skeptical of how often a homeowner has actually needed a gun to repel an intruder...versus "brandishing a weapon, I "protected" my home"...

And of course there's the example of the a-hole couple brandishing their weapons on their porch as peaceful BLM protestors went down the public street in their neighborhood...

Why don't you give us the stats percentage of how often a homeowner, confronting an actual intruder, actually ended up on the wrong end of that exchange?

and of course, the suicides...

Do you discount the value of guns for personal protection? Tell that to the 110 lb waitress on her way home after midnight. Or the rural family when the nearest deputy is 20 miles away. What would you do against a home invasion? They aren’t some impossibility. You want stats, look them up yourself. You posited the question about getting killed by your own gun. IMHO probably quite small in relation to lives saved. Let me know when you find out.

I haven't seen any stat from you about 'lives saved' just a survey that suggests people brandish their guns when they get concerned.

And the issue is that the criminal, when there actually is one, is very likely to be armed in a USA awash in weapons. Not so in other countries.

What matters is that we have many multiples of guns per civilian in our country than any other first world country and likewise many multiples of gun deaths. Very strong correlation. Same at the state level here in the US, strong correlation. We don't have greater mental health issues, more poverty, etc. Just way, way more guns.

I'm a gun owner and believe that we can have some types of guns safely, used safely, if we get serious about who has these guns, how they are stored, when and where they are used, etc.

With regard to the waitress, I'd rather see her have a safe ride home than carry a gun, scared of a criminal with a gun...what do waitresses in Great Britain do? France? Germany? Sweden? Japan? New Zealand? Canada?....

Your entire premise neglects to consider the criminal in the equation. The waitress doesn't want to carry the gun. It's probably a little scary to her, or any other person who is at a physical disadvantage with the criminal. The gun is an equalizer. I'd be fine with some gun laws that don't change the self defense aspect, but we should have very harsh sentences for anyone who commits a felony with a gun, say 25 years with no parole.

Yes, the issue is that criminals (and nutcases) have guns, easily, in the USA...we're awash in weapons because of our gun culture. That waitress does not have the same danger issues in those other countries, though there's always some degree of danger...but the answer there isn't to carry a gun...pepper spray is sufficient.

I don't ignore this at all.

I agree with you on harsh penalties for crimes committed with guns.

But I also want to dramatically reduce the number of guns in circulation, requiring registration of ALL weapons, else substantial penalties, and restrict when and where and how they can be used. For instance, some types of weapons should never be used away from a well-regulated gun range; indeed, that's where they should be stored.

Some guns can be used in specified ways, for specified purposes, eg hunting, but must be stored properly and usage should only by those well trained and licensed and where appropriate for such use. (I have never had to take a gun safety course, grandfathered from my childhood; I'm super safe when hunting and handling in transit...to the extent one can be with such a danger...but I know lots of people who are way less careful in their gun handling, putting themselves and others in danger...and there are no rules, requirements, restrictions, training etc as to how I store my guns at home. I could have a loaded gun by my bed, in my closet, next to my door, whatever...and is one always going to be sober, not depressed, no angry, not scared and thus potentially make a tragic mistake in a momentary lapse? )

I want gun manufacturers and each owner of a gun to be liable for how that gun is used, if used improperly. Put the economics squarely on those who profit and those who are negligent or worse. A manufacturer selling high capacity weapons with glorifying gun culture marketing should be liable for the use of the gun away from the highly regulated gun range...and an owner who fails to follow storage regulations should be liable for the use of a stolen gun, much less the sale or gift of the gun to someone not properly registered. What those liability levels are we could niggle on, but there should be economic incentives, at least, to modifying behavior.

If someone feels the need to have a gun for self-defense, let's start by admitting that really should never have to be the case, it's a failure of regulation and law enforcement.

But ok, it's a reality that there are some definable situations that could exist...then such availability for such potential use should require one heck of a lot of training, ongoing throughout the time in which that weapon is registered for such. Annual reviews required on handling and storage. Mental stability open to review as well.

Back to the criminals, yes, severe penalties.

The topic thread is "Sensible Gun Safety".

cradle,
I'm not going to separately respond to you as the above addresses amply, but I'm not ignoring you.
I picked my wife up at night when she had long hours, so that she wouldn't have to walk 6 blocks in transitional area of Boston. Was it truly necessary, probably not, but maybe...she did get her purse snatched one night, but that was right in front of me...I took off chasing him, but lost ground in my hard shoes and he in his sneakers, but a couple of guys going into their townhouse blew a police whistle as he ran past and the thief dropped the bag...police were there in less than 2 mins...so, yeah, having someone escort you can help, though no guarantee...if he'd had a gun, and held us up, it wouldn't have mattered if I had one too...he'd have been ready I wouldn't...

The point is that your example of waitresses is way less of an issue in countries in which it's much harder to obtain a gun.

So give your wife some pepper spray and drop her off at Mondawmin Mall in West Baltimore.

Like I said, I picked up my wife. Every bit as challenging a walk as 6 blocks from Mondawmin today would be.
In today's era, Uber is a beautiful alternative if there's nobody to do that pick up.

But are you really going to ignore everything else?

Yes everything else is going to be ignored including the reality in the stupid retort that criminals target opportunities which aren’t in poor areas. (Just like claiming you neglect thinking about the criminal side…in the USA…ignorantly/dishonestly assumes the environment is equal in other countries with respect to all other factors-same reason I push back to comparing us and scandanavian countries in anything especially healthcare)

The inability to distinguish planned/targeted crimes vs random crime by some os astounding.

If your the victim of random violence do you really care if it was random violence or targeted violence. Your loved one is just as dead either way. There was a local dude who was blown away in a parking lot outside of a downtown nightclub. He was acquitted years back of being involved in a shooting at a local Boys and Girls club. He escaped several murder attempts in the past. I guess this is an example of targeted violence. There were people who wanted him dead and now he is. Sometimes street justice just gets the job done as barbaric as it is.

One should care. Most crime isn’t personal. It feels that way, I’ve had my car broken into three times in 5-6yrs, lost three computers because I’m an a-hole for being tired late or running back to my office for five min while leaving my computer bag in the car (once in my corporate office below grade deck of a 300k sq Fr office building in midtown) etc. I had a cousin as documented murdered in a mass shooting. Other crime has affected myself and my family and I still find the reasonable and responsible thing is to have the EQ to take a step back and think before changing my entire life around this.

People need to be and do better. Not impose their will in everyone else because of a single or few experiences. You don’t want anyone to be or do better just impose rules, restrictions and create an environment where fear is institutionally embedded. That’s what your advocating for here.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/vi ... r-AA16EHtY This was a classic example of a targeted shooting. The only other possibility is this young lad stepped into that parking lot and got in the way of a flock of bullets flying south for the winter. FTR, I am the polar opposite of preaching fear to anyone. Hell I'm not afraid of dying yet I have no death wish. It is that "circle of life" thing. Is it normal to be afraid or feel fear?? I made 37 static line parachute jumps with the 82nd Airborne. I was afraid every effing time I jumped. The fear never trumped the exhilaration after hitting the ground. There is no more intense feeling when the air force loadmaster opens the door on the plane and the red light comes on. You would have to be there to understand the feeling. I'm not talking about Hollywood jumps, I'm talking about a night jump in full gear. To quote Tim Taylor... whoof whoof whoof .

Fear can be healthy. It’s how it’s processed and responded to that matters. Not being reactionary, having empathy (thinking from others positions not ones own) and not creating or fostering the wrong environment and worse outcomes.

Understand it’s overused as an example and may have some technical issues but see the Stanford Prison experiment?

But honestly I don’t get your point here. There’s both types of crime. What are your proposed solutions other than raging and filtering everything through this incredibly narrow lens of Rochester am nowhere else?

My proposed solution is pretty simple. If your mad at somebody you don't have to shoot that person to assuage your anger. An eye for an eye leaves both people blind. Too many angry people running around with too many weapons and too many scores to settle. If you can't shoot em, then stab em to death. If you can't shoot em or stab em, pull out your Buford Pusser stick and beat them to death.

[cradleandshoot]

The more serious issue would be that someone like me, under the situation I described, would say 'yes' to this question. Once in my life. 50 years ago. Idiot that I was or am!

Moreover, have I ever heard a sound in the house and then, carrying a shotgun, made noises about being armed? Yup...that would count too, though I've never actually needed to confront a real intruder...usually it's just one of the downstairs doors has blown open...

So, I'm extremely skeptical of how often a homeowner has actually needed a gun to repel an intruder...versus "brandishing a weapon, I "protected" my home"...

And of course there's the example of the a-hole couple brandishing their weapons on their porch as peaceful BLM protestors went down the public street in their neighborhood...

Why don't you give us the stats percentage of how often a homeowner, confronting an actual intruder, actually ended up on the wrong end of that exchange?

and of course, the suicides...

Do you discount the value of guns for personal protection? Tell that to the 110 lb waitress on her way home after midnight. Or the rural family when the nearest deputy is 20 miles away. What would you do against a home invasion? They aren’t some impossibility. You want stats, look them up yourself. You posited the question about getting killed by your own gun. IMHO probably quite small in relation to lives saved. Let me know when you find out.

I haven't seen any stat from you about 'lives saved' just a survey that suggests people brandish their guns when they get concerned.

And the issue is that the criminal, when there actually is one, is very likely to be armed in a USA awash in weapons. Not so in other countries.

What matters is that we have many multiples of guns per civilian in our country than any other first world country and likewise many multiples of gun deaths. Very strong correlation. Same at the state level here in the US, strong correlation. We don't have greater mental health issues, more poverty, etc. Just way, way more guns.

I'm a gun owner and believe that we can have some types of guns safely, used safely, if we get serious about who has these guns, how they are stored, when and where they are used, etc.

With regard to the waitress, I'd rather see her have a safe ride home than carry a gun, scared of a criminal with a gun...what do waitresses in Great Britain do? France? Germany? Sweden? Japan? New Zealand? Canada?....

Your entire premise neglects to consider the criminal in the equation. The waitress doesn't want to carry the gun. It's probably a little scary to her, or any other person who is at a physical disadvantage with the criminal. The gun is an equalizer. I'd be fine with some gun laws that don't change the self defense aspect, but we should have very harsh sentences for anyone who commits a felony with a gun, say 25 years with no parole.

Yes, the issue is that criminals (and nutcases) have guns, easily, in the USA...we're awash in weapons because of our gun culture. That waitress does not have the same danger issues in those other countries, though there's always some degree of danger...but the answer there isn't to carry a gun...pepper spray is sufficient.

I don't ignore this at all.

I agree with you on harsh penalties for crimes committed with guns.

But I also want to dramatically reduce the number of guns in circulation, requiring registration of ALL weapons, else substantial penalties, and restrict when and where and how they can be used. For instance, some types of weapons should never be used away from a well-regulated gun range; indeed, that's where they should be stored.

Some guns can be used in specified ways, for specified purposes, eg hunting, but must be stored properly and usage should only by those well trained and licensed and where appropriate for such use. (I have never had to take a gun safety course, grandfathered from my childhood; I'm super safe when hunting and handling in transit...to the extent one can be with such a danger...but I know lots of people who are way less careful in their gun handling, putting themselves and others in danger...and there are no rules, requirements, restrictions, training etc as to how I store my guns at home. I could have a loaded gun by my bed, in my closet, next to my door, whatever...and is one always going to be sober, not depressed, no angry, not scared and thus potentially make a tragic mistake in a momentary lapse? )

I want gun manufacturers and each owner of a gun to be liable for how that gun is used, if used improperly. Put the economics squarely on those who profit and those who are negligent or worse. A manufacturer selling high capacity weapons with glorifying gun culture marketing should be liable for the use of the gun away from the highly regulated gun range...and an owner who fails to follow storage regulations should be liable for the use of a stolen gun, much less the sale or gift of the gun to someone not properly registered. What those liability levels are we could niggle on, but there should be economic incentives, at least, to modifying behavior.

If someone feels the need to have a gun for self-defense, let's start by admitting that really should never have to be the case, it's a failure of regulation and law enforcement.

But ok, it's a reality that there are some definable situations that could exist...then such availability for such potential use should require one heck of a lot of training, ongoing throughout the time in which that weapon is registered for such. Annual reviews required on handling and storage. Mental stability open to review as well.

Back to the criminals, yes, severe penalties.

The topic thread is "Sensible Gun Safety".

cradle,
I'm not going to separately respond to you as the above addresses amply, but I'm not ignoring you.
I picked my wife up at night when she had long hours, so that she wouldn't have to walk 6 blocks in transitional area of Boston. Was it truly necessary, probably not, but maybe...she did get her purse snatched one night, but that was right in front of me...I took off chasing him, but lost ground in my hard shoes and he in his sneakers, but a couple of guys going into their townhouse blew a police whistle as he ran past and the thief dropped the bag...police were there in less than 2 mins...so, yeah, having someone escort you can help, though no guarantee...if he'd had a gun, and held us up, it wouldn't have mattered if I had one too...he'd have been ready I wouldn't...

The point is that your example of waitresses is way less of an issue in countries in which it's much harder to obtain a gun.

So give your wife some pepper spray and drop her off at Mondawmin Mall in West Baltimore.

Like I said, I picked up my wife. Every bit as challenging a walk as 6 blocks from Mondawmin today would be.
In today's era, Uber is a beautiful alternative if there's nobody to do that pick up.

But are you really going to ignore everything else?

Yes everything else is going to be ignored including the reality in the stupid retort that criminals target opportunities which aren’t in poor areas. (Just like claiming you neglect thinking about the criminal side…in the USA…ignorantly/dishonestly assumes the environment is equal in other countries with respect to all other factors-same reason I push back to comparing us and scandanavian countries in anything especially healthcare)

The inability to distinguish planned/targeted crimes vs random crime by some os astounding.

If your the victim of random violence do you really care if it was random violence or targeted violence. Your loved one is just as dead either way. There was a local dude who was blown away in a parking lot outside of a downtown nightclub. He was acquitted years back of being involved in a shooting at a local Boys and Girls club. He escaped several murder attempts in the past. I guess this is an example of targeted violence. There were people who wanted him dead and now he is. Sometimes street justice just gets the job done as barbaric as it is.

One should care. Most crime isn’t personal. It feels that way, I’ve had my car broken into three times in 5-6yrs, lost three computers because I’m an a-hole for being tired late or running back to my office for five min while leaving my computer bag in the car (once in my corporate office below grade deck of a 300k sq Fr office building in midtown) etc. I had a cousin as documented murdered in a mass shooting. Other crime has affected myself and my family and I still find the reasonable and responsible thing is to have the EQ to take a step back and think before changing my entire life around this.

People need to be and do better. Not impose their will in everyone else because of a single or few experiences. You don’t want anyone to be or do better just impose rules, restrictions and create an environment where fear is institutionally embedded. That’s what your advocating for here.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/vi ... r-AA16EHtY This was a classic example of a targeted shooting. The only other possibility is this young lad stepped into that parking lot and got in the way of a flock of bullets flying south for the winter. FTR, I am the polar opposite of preaching fear to anyone. Hell I'm not afraid of dying yet I have no death wish. It is that "circle of life" thing. Is it normal to be afraid or feel fear?? I made 37 static line parachute jumps with the 82nd Airborne. I was afraid every effing time I jumped. The fear never trumped the exhilaration after hitting the ground. There is no more intense feeling when the air force loadmaster opens the door on the plane and the red light comes on. You would have to be there to understand the feeling. I'm not talking about Hollywood jumps, I'm talking about a night jump in full gear. To quote Tim Taylor... whoof whoof whoof .

Fear can be healthy. It’s how it’s processed and responded to that matters. Not being reactionary, having empathy (thinking from others positions not ones own) and not creating or fostering the wrong environment and worse outcomes.

Understand it’s overused as an example and may have some technical issues but see the Stanford Prison experiment?

But honestly I don’t get your point here. There’s both types of crime. What are your proposed solutions other than raging and filtering everything through this incredibly narrow lens of Rochester am nowhere else?

Your smarter than this. My Rochester filter is an example of what I witness locally every day. The lens is not narrow my friend. It is focused on what I see everyday in the city I grew up in. That lens winds up being as narrow as you want it to be. I'm guessing your focus is what you see happening in Atlanta on a day to day basis? Does that make your observations strictly narrow minded??

[Seacoaster(1)]

California Governor Newsom, surrounded by armed security: “The Second Amendment is becoming a suicide pact.”

What are you trying to convey here?

[Farfromgeneva]

The problem also becomes when the planned/targeted crimes ARE random crimes.

Targets of opportunity. Terror for fun.

My parents had an incident in Towsontownd mall on an elevator with their granddaughter. My dad now has his concealed carry. No fear, just an option, in a crazy world.

And what would you propose is that overlap? In probability terms.