All Things Russia & Ukraine

[old salt]

How does this war end ? Food for thought, as NATO leaders meet to ponder further military aid.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/its-time-t ... 1670870286

It’s Time to Prepare for Ukrainian Peace
Americans should be thinking about an arrangement more durable than a truce.

by Walter Russell Mead, Dec. 12, 2022

Startled out of its complacency by the rise of revisionist powers such as China, Russia and Iran, the Western alliance is now remembering a vital truth: In times of peace, one must prepare for war. But the obverse is also true: In times of war, one must prepare for peace.

Vladimir Putin’s war in Ukraine is already the worst conflict in Europe since 1945, and it continues to intensify. As winter descends, Russia has escalated its barbaric campaign to force a surrender by destroying Ukraine’s power infrastructure. The country is responding with escalations of its own, striking targets deep inside Russia.

Even as we continue to help Ukraine, Americans must begin thinking about what kind of peace they want. This is not yet a question of maps. We don’t know where the armies will stand when serious peace talks begin, and the military facts on the ground will drive haggling over territory. But boundaries aside, peacemaking is hard. As Polish friends struggling to rebuild their society after communism used to tell me, it is easier to turn an aquarium into fish soup than to turn fish soup back into an aquarium.

The U.S. wants several things from the peace. First, the war should end quickly. The longer the war drags on, the more destructive it will be.

Second, the war should end in true peace. That is, the fighting shouldn’t subside into a frozen conflict that could explode at any moment. We don’t want continuing sanctions gumming up the world economy. We don’t want half of Europe on a permanent war footing. We want this war to end in a treaty, not an armed truce.

Third, the war should end in a way that makes clear that Russia’s aggression did not go unpunished. Future Russian leaders, as well as potential aggressors elsewhere, need to see that wars of attempted conquest are costly.

Fourth, the end of this war shouldn’t set the stage for the next. The North Atlantic Treaty Organization’s partial expansion was a mistake. If you put up “No Fishing” signs on one side of the lake, the implication is that fishing is OK on what’s left. Georgia, Moldova, Ukraine and Belarus weren’t brought into NATO, and Russia has invaded or subverted them all. This war needs to end with a clear security framework. NATO membership for countries that want it would be a simple solution, but others may be possible.

Finally, America does not want the war to end with the dismemberment of the Russian Federation. In a worst-case scenario, the collapse of authority across Russia would invite chaos and war across the Caucasus. It would unleash a nightmare: nuclear weapons and materials for sale to the highest bidder. It would empower China. Even if we don’t always like the way it governs itself, a stable Russia is hugely preferable to a zone of anarchy stretching from Ukraine to the Pacific and from the Arctic Ocean to the Black Sea.

Reaching any of these goals, much less all of them, won’t be easy. Barring a complete collapse of the Russian state, Moscow is unlikely to disgorge all the land Ukraine wants to reclaim, pay all the reparations Ukraine wants, or allow the kinds of war-crime investigations and trials Ukraine and its sympathizers feel are justified. But American and Western security and aid commitments can help make an inevitably imperfect peace treaty acceptable to the Ukrainians.

Preparing for peace does not mean appeasement. Making war painful and expensive for Russia can help persuade the Kremlin to change course. But Team Biden also needs to prepare for the next stage. Negotiating with Russia will be hard, but negotiating with our allies and Congress could be nearly as tough.

If the war ends with a weaker Russia and a stronger Ukraine, NATO will start to look less important to many Germans, and some in Berlin will focus more on building lucrative postwar business relationships with Russia rather than risk alienating the Kremlin by supporting tough peace terms. There are those in Eastern Europe who think the Russian Federation should be broken up. And there will be Americans in both parties who won’t want the U.S. to commit to the aid and engagement required to build order so far away.

During World War II, President Franklin D. Roosevelt’s administration spent a lot of time preparing for the post-war world. Team Biden must also think ahead if something more durable than a truce is to come out of the current conflict.

[old salt]

The WSJ Editors ask a key question. ...with no good answers. Is it worth the risk to test Putin & call his bluff ?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-watershe ... _lead_pos1

A Crucial Moment for Ukraine
NATO’s reluctance to provide battle tanks reveals the West’s ambivalence about helping Kyiv emerge victorious.
By The Editorial Board, Jan. 18, 2023

Western governments are applauding themselves for helping Ukraine resist Russia’s invasion, and some credit is certainly due. But as the war’s first anniversary looms, so does a new moment of decision: Will the U.S. and Europe let the war grind on as a brutal stalemate, or will they provide enough military aid so Ukraine can take back its territory and win the war?

That’s the strategic choice, unspoken publicly but looming in the background, as Ukraine’s allies meet Friday at Ramstein Air Base in Germany. The Ukraine Defense Contact Group includes 50 governments, and Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Gen. Mark Milley will attend. Their decisions will set the terms of war from the Ukrainian side for the rest of the winter and beyond.

The Ukrainians have put up an heroic fight and retaken some of the territory Russia grabbed early in the war. But the bitter truth is that Vladimir Putin shows no sign of letting up despite his humiliating setbacks. Mr. Putin is venting his frustration by lobbing missiles at apartment buildings, with one in Dnipro killing 40 people, including children, this week. American Patriot missile defenses are still weeks or months from arriving, as Ukrainian troops train on the system in Oklahoma.

Russia may be gearing up for another offensive. The Institute for the Study of War warned this week that Russia is “preparing to conduct a decisive strategic action in the next six months,” perhaps in an attempt to overrun Luhansk Oblast in the east.

Mr. Putin may also expand his conventional force to 1.5 million troops, up from 1.35 million now. He is working to revive Moscow’s ability to produce weapons and calling every dictator in his Rolodex for arms. Russian casualties are of no great consequence to him. He thinks that, as the war drags on, he can outlast Western support for Kyiv and still emerge with much of Ukraine under his control.

That may prove to be right if Ukraine can’t build on its gains in the latter half of 2022 and retake its territory soon. Ukrainians clearly have the will to keep fighting, as Vitali Klitschko notes nearby, but they need more and better arms than the West has provided so far.

An emerging fiasco over Ukraine’s urgent request for tanks illustrates the problem. The U.K. said this week it will provide Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine, but only 14. News reports Wednesday said Germany won’t sign off on transfers of its Leopard tanks unless the U.S. provides its own Abrams tanks. This military pas de do not should embarrass both the Germans and the White House.

Leopards are excellent battle tanks in service across European militaries, with some 2,000 in NATO cupboards, by one estimate. Military analysts have suggested the Ukrainians would need at least 100 to make a dent on the battlefield, and the priority should be providing the tanks rapidly and at scale. The U.S. Marines recently retired their tank battalions as part of a strategy shift, and those Abrams could be put to good use in Ukraine.

Yet the Biden Administration is leaking that the aid it plans to announce this week won’t include tanks. Neither will the U.S. offer the Army tactical missile system, which would allow the Ukrainians to strike targets from afar, launched off the Himars systems that have been deployed to such great effect.

This reluctance is a profile in puzzling timidity. The White House fear is apparently that the war will escalate if Mr. Putin continues to lose ground. The Russian is capable of anything, but there is no moral or strategic case for giving Ukraine just enough weapons to bleed for months with no chance of victory.
***
The stronger case is to help Ukraine win rapidly with more arms and by scrapping U.S. restrictions on how Ukraine wages war. The U.S. has said Ukrainian strikes on Russian territory are off-limits, and the practical effect has been to let Moscow concentrate forces on Eastern Ukraine without having to defend some of its own depots and bases. Why should a dictator who rolled over a foreign border be free to claim his territory as sacrosanct?

The rejoinder is that Mr. Putin might unleash a nuclear weapon, but the past months have shown that he will make that decision based on his own calculations in any case. If he does, he will face even more global ostracism and Western help for Ukraine.

A long and ugly stalemate in Ukraine would put Russia in position to menace its neighbors for years to come, which would be even more costly for the U.S. and Europe. President Biden is receiving plaudits for keeping the Ukraine coalition together despite the economic and military strains. But the praise will turn to harsh and deserved criticism if the war grinds on and Russia wins its war of bloody attrition.

[old salt]

Henry the K throws in the towel.

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/davos2 ... r0dBS9sPTZ

Jan 17, 2023 at 1:44 pm ET
Kissinger Backs Ukraine's NATO Bid
By Brett Forrest

Former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger advocated for Ukraine’s accession to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization.

“Before this war, I was opposed to membership of Ukraine in NATO, because I feared that it would start exactly the process that we are seeing now,” Mr. Kissinger said remotely at a session of the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. “The idea of a neutral Ukraine under these conditions is no longer meaningful. I believe Ukrainian membership in NATO would be a[n] appropriate outcome.”

Ukraine applied for NATO membership in September.

Mr. Kissinger’s comments echoed points he made in an article in The Spectator magazine last month, in which he argued for establishing a ceasefire in the Russo-Ukraine war along the pre-invasion lines of contact.

Describing a plan by which the war could conclude, Mr. Kissinger Tuesday said that such a suspension in fighting “is the reasonable outcome of the military actions but not necessarily the outcome of a later peace negotiation."

Neither Russia nor Ukraine has displayed particular zeal for opening negotiations. While Moscow has preconditioned talks on Ukraine’s recognition of Russian territorial gains, Kyiv has demanded that Russian troops abandon the Crimean Peninsula and all other Ukrainian lands before meaningful talks may begin.

Near-term negotiations would “keep the war from becoming a war against Russia itself,” Mr. Kissinger said, cautioning against provoking instability within Russia, given the country’s large nuclear-weapons arsenal. Talks would give Moscow “an opportunity to rejoin an international system.”

Mr. Kissinger, 99 years old, was instrumental in establishing Cold War détente with the Soviet Union as secretary of state in the 1970s.

“I believe in dialogue with Russia while the war continues, an end of fighting when the prewar line is reached,” he said Tuesday. “I believe this is the way to prevent the war from escalating by raising issues beyond those that existed at the beginning of the war and making them subject to a continuation of military conflict.”

[Kismet]

Henry the K throws in the towel.

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/davos2 ... r0dBS9sPTZ

Jan 17, 2023 at 1:44 pm ET
Kissinger Backs Ukraine's NATO Bid
By Brett Forrest

Former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger advocated for Ukraine’s accession to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization.

“Before this war, I was opposed to membership of Ukraine in NATO, because I feared that it would start exactly the process that we are seeing now,” Mr. Kissinger said remotely at a session of the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. “The idea of a neutral Ukraine under these conditions is no longer meaningful. I believe Ukrainian membership in NATO would be a[n] appropriate outcome.”

Ukraine applied for NATO membership in September.

Mr. Kissinger’s comments echoed points he made in an article in The Spectator magazine last month, in which he argued for establishing a ceasefire in the Russo-Ukraine war along the pre-invasion lines of contact.

Describing a plan by which the war could conclude, Mr. Kissinger Tuesday said that such a suspension in fighting “is the reasonable outcome of the military actions but not necessarily the outcome of a later peace negotiation."

Neither Russia nor Ukraine has displayed particular zeal for opening negotiations. While Moscow has preconditioned talks on Ukraine’s recognition of Russian territorial gains, Kyiv has demanded that Russian troops abandon the Crimean Peninsula and all other Ukrainian lands before meaningful talks may begin.

Near-term negotiations would “keep the war from becoming a war against Russia itself,” Mr. Kissinger said, cautioning against provoking instability within Russia, given the country’s large nuclear-weapons arsenal. Talks would give Moscow “an opportunity to rejoin an international system.”

Mr. Kissinger, 99 years old, was instrumental in establishing Cold War détente with the Soviet Union as secretary of state in the 1970s.

“I believe in dialogue with Russia while the war continues, an end of fighting when the prewar line is reached,” he said Tuesday. “I believe this is the way to prevent the war from escalating by raising issues beyond those that existed at the beginning of the war and making them subject to a continuation of military conflict.”

He's been wrong more often than right over time. His opinion here means little. The most overrated diplomat/bureaucrat EVER.

[Farfromgeneva]

Henry the K throws in the towel.

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/davos2 ... r0dBS9sPTZ

Jan 17, 2023 at 1:44 pm ET
Kissinger Backs Ukraine's NATO Bid
By Brett Forrest

Former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger advocated for Ukraine’s accession to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization.

“Before this war, I was opposed to membership of Ukraine in NATO, because I feared that it would start exactly the process that we are seeing now,” Mr. Kissinger said remotely at a session of the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. “The idea of a neutral Ukraine under these conditions is no longer meaningful. I believe Ukrainian membership in NATO would be a[n] appropriate outcome.”

Ukraine applied for NATO membership in September.

Mr. Kissinger’s comments echoed points he made in an article in The Spectator magazine last month, in which he argued for establishing a ceasefire in the Russo-Ukraine war along the pre-invasion lines of contact.

Describing a plan by which the war could conclude, Mr. Kissinger Tuesday said that such a suspension in fighting “is the reasonable outcome of the military actions but not necessarily the outcome of a later peace negotiation."

Neither Russia nor Ukraine has displayed particular zeal for opening negotiations. While Moscow has preconditioned talks on Ukraine’s recognition of Russian territorial gains, Kyiv has demanded that Russian troops abandon the Crimean Peninsula and all other Ukrainian lands before meaningful talks may begin.

Near-term negotiations would “keep the war from becoming a war against Russia itself,” Mr. Kissinger said, cautioning against provoking instability within Russia, given the country’s large nuclear-weapons arsenal. Talks would give Moscow “an opportunity to rejoin an international system.”

Mr. Kissinger, 99 years old, was instrumental in establishing Cold War détente with the Soviet Union as secretary of state in the 1970s.

“I believe in dialogue with Russia while the war continues, an end of fighting when the prewar line is reached,” he said Tuesday. “I believe this is the way to prevent the war from escalating by raising issues beyond those that existed at the beginning of the war and making them subject to a continuation of military conflict.”

He's been wrong more often than right over time. His opinion here means little. The most overrated diplomat/bureaucrat EVER.

People make a living off one big win. In all walks of life. Somehow randomness and dynamics of models and paradigms never enter into the analysis of the persons success.

[Kismet]

For Salty - not everyone agrees about your opinions whether Ukraine is separate from Russia - it is apparently not a new concept to Ukrainians either (and for quite some time)

"In the late 1960s during one of the U.S.-USSR Track Meets, sportscaster Jim McKay of ABC started to interview Valeriy Borzov saying "I am here with the great Russian sprinter Valeriy Borzov". Borzov interrupted by saying, "I am not Russian, I am Ukrainian" and walked away."

[old salt]

For Salty - not everyone agrees about your opinions whether Ukraine is separate from Russia - it is apparently not a new concept to Ukrainians either (and for quite some time)

"In the late 1960s during one of the U.S.-USSR Track Meets, sportscaster Jim McKay of ABC started to interview Valeriy Borzov saying "I am here with the great Russian sprinter Valeriy Borzov". Borzov interrupted by saying, "I am not Russian, I am Ukrainian" and walked away."

BFD. How many Divisions did Borzov command ?

https://www.shmoop.com/quotes/how-many- ... 20millions.

It is not the responsibility of the USA to facilitate the further dismemberment of the Russian nation.
With real threats to the US from China, Iran, N Korea, & drug cartels turning our hemisphere into a collection of corrupt narco states, we do not have the resources or duty to also reconcile the grievances among the citizens of the former Russian nation.

[Typical Lax Dad]

For Salty - not everyone agrees about your opinions whether Ukraine is separate from Russia - it is apparently not a new concept to Ukrainians either (and for quite some time)

"In the late 1960s during one of the U.S.-USSR Track Meets, sportscaster Jim McKay of ABC started to interview Valeriy Borzov saying "I am here with the great Russian sprinter Valeriy Borzov". Borzov interrupted by saying, "I am not Russian, I am Ukrainian" and walked away."

BFD. How many Divisions did Borzov command ?

https://www.shmoop.com/quotes/how-many- ... 20millions.

It is not the responsibility of the USA to facilitate the further dismemberment of the Russian nation.
With real threats to the US from China, Iran, N Korea, & drug cartels turning our hemisphere into a collection of corrupt narco states, we do not have the resources or duty to also reconcile the grievances among the citizens of the former Russian nation.

[DocBarrister]

For Salty - not everyone agrees about your opinions whether Ukraine is separate from Russia - it is apparently not a new concept to Ukrainians either (and for quite some time)

"In the late 1960s during one of the U.S.-USSR Track Meets, sportscaster Jim McKay of ABC started to interview Valeriy Borzov saying "I am here with the great Russian sprinter Valeriy Borzov". Borzov interrupted by saying, "I am not Russian, I am Ukrainian" and walked away."

BFD. How many Divisions did Borzov command ?

https://www.shmoop.com/quotes/how-many- ... 20millions.

It is not the responsibility of the USA to facilitate the further dismemberment of the Russian nation.
With real threats to the US from China, Iran, N Korea, & drug cartels turning our hemisphere into a collection of corrupt narco states, we do not have the resources or duty to also reconcile the grievances among the citizens of the former Russian nation.

(1) Quoting the scumbag Stalin, one of the most monstrous genocidal/homicidal tyrants in human history is pretty repugnant.

(2) Russia is a greater threat than China, Iran, North Korea and the drug cartels because Russia actually started a war and has committed numerous atrocities and war crimes.

(3) Ukraine isn’t part of Russia and you need to understand and acknowledge that before saying anything else about this criminal war.

Your support of Russia is a true embarrassment to this forum.

DocBarrister

[Kismet]

For Salty - not everyone agrees about your opinions whether Ukraine is separate from Russia - it is apparently not a new concept to Ukrainians either (and for quite some time)

"In the late 1960s during one of the U.S.-USSR Track Meets, sportscaster Jim McKay of ABC started to interview Valeriy Borzov saying "I am here with the great Russian sprinter Valeriy Borzov". Borzov interrupted by saying, "I am not Russian, I am Ukrainian" and walked away."

BFD. How many Divisions did Borzov command ?

https://www.shmoop.com/quotes/how-many- ... 20millions.

It is not the responsibility of the USA to facilitate the further dismemberment of the Russian nation.
With real threats to the US from China, Iran, N Korea, & drug cartels turning our hemisphere into a collection of corrupt narco states, we do not have the resources or duty to also reconcile the grievances among the citizens of the former Russian nation.

Irrelevant. The point was/is he considered himself Ukrainian and not Russian.

[PizzaSnake]

How does this war end ? Food for thought, as NATO leaders meet to ponder further military aid.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/its-time-t ... 1670870286

It’s Time to Prepare for Ukrainian Peace
Americans should be thinking about an arrangement more durable than a truce.

by Walter Russell Mead, Dec. 12, 2022

Startled out of its complacency by the rise of revisionist powers such as China, Russia and Iran, the Western alliance is now remembering a vital truth: In times of peace, one must prepare for war. But the obverse is also true: In times of war, one must prepare for peace.

Vladimir Putin’s war in Ukraine is already the worst conflict in Europe since 1945, and it continues to intensify. As winter descends, Russia has escalated its barbaric campaign to force a surrender by destroying Ukraine’s power infrastructure. The country is responding with escalations of its own, striking targets deep inside Russia.

Even as we continue to help Ukraine, Americans must begin thinking about what kind of peace they want. This is not yet a question of maps. We don’t know where the armies will stand when serious peace talks begin, and the military facts on the ground will drive haggling over territory. But boundaries aside, peacemaking is hard. As Polish friends struggling to rebuild their society after communism used to tell me, it is easier to turn an aquarium into fish soup than to turn fish soup back into an aquarium.

The U.S. wants several things from the peace. First, the war should end quickly. The longer the war drags on, the more destructive it will be.

Second, the war should end in true peace. That is, the fighting shouldn’t subside into a frozen conflict that could explode at any moment. We don’t want continuing sanctions gumming up the world economy. We don’t want half of Europe on a permanent war footing. We want this war to end in a treaty, not an armed truce.

Third, the war should end in a way that makes clear that Russia’s aggression did not go unpunished. Future Russian leaders, as well as potential aggressors elsewhere, need to see that wars of attempted conquest are costly.

Fourth, the end of this war shouldn’t set the stage for the next. The North Atlantic Treaty Organization’s partial expansion was a mistake. If you put up “No Fishing” signs on one side of the lake, the implication is that fishing is OK on what’s left. Georgia, Moldova, Ukraine and Belarus weren’t brought into NATO, and Russia has invaded or subverted them all. This war needs to end with a clear security framework. NATO membership for countries that want it would be a simple solution, but others may be possible.

Finally, America does not want the war to end with the dismemberment of the Russian Federation. In a worst-case scenario, the collapse of authority across Russia would invite chaos and war across the Caucasus. It would unleash a nightmare: nuclear weapons and materials for sale to the highest bidder. It would empower China. Even if we don’t always like the way it governs itself, a stable Russia is hugely preferable to a zone of anarchy stretching from Ukraine to the Pacific and from the Arctic Ocean to the Black Sea.

Reaching any of these goals, much less all of them, won’t be easy. Barring a complete collapse of the Russian state, Moscow is unlikely to disgorge all the land Ukraine wants to reclaim, pay all the reparations Ukraine wants, or allow the kinds of war-crime investigations and trials Ukraine and its sympathizers feel are justified. But American and Western security and aid commitments can help make an inevitably imperfect peace treaty acceptable to the Ukrainians.

Preparing for peace does not mean appeasement. Making war painful and expensive for Russia can help persuade the Kremlin to change course. But Team Biden also needs to prepare for the next stage. Negotiating with Russia will be hard, but negotiating with our allies and Congress could be nearly as tough.

If the war ends with a weaker Russia and a stronger Ukraine, NATO will start to look less important to many Germans, and some in Berlin will focus more on building lucrative postwar business relationships with Russia rather than risk alienating the Kremlin by supporting tough peace terms. There are those in Eastern Europe who think the Russian Federation should be broken up. And there will be Americans in both parties who won’t want the U.S. to commit to the aid and engagement required to build order so far away.

During World War II, President Franklin D. Roosevelt’s administration spent a lot of time preparing for the post-war world. Team Biden must also think ahead if something more durable than a truce is to come out of the current conflict.

With Pootie's death.

[old salt]

For Salty - not everyone agrees about your opinions whether Ukraine is separate from Russia - it is apparently not a new concept to Ukrainians either (and for quite some time)

"In the late 1960s during one of the U.S.-USSR Track Meets, sportscaster Jim McKay of ABC started to interview Valeriy Borzov saying "I am here with the great Russian sprinter Valeriy Borzov". Borzov interrupted by saying, "I am not Russian, I am Ukrainian" and walked away."

BFD. How many Divisions did Borzov command ?

https://www.shmoop.com/quotes/how-many- ... 20millions.

It is not the responsibility of the USA to facilitate the further dismemberment of the Russian nation.
With real threats to the US from China, Iran, N Korea, & drug cartels turning our hemisphere into a collection of corrupt narco states, we do not have the resources or duty to also reconcile the grievances among the citizens of the former Russian nation.

(1) Quoting the scumbag Stalin, one of the most monstrous genocidal/homicidal tyrants in human history is pretty repugnant.

(2) Russia is a greater threat than China, Iran, North Korea and the drug cartels because Russia actually started a war and has committed numerous atrocities and war crimes.

(3) Ukraine isn’t part of Russia and you need to understand and acknowledge that before saying anything else about this criminal war.

Your support of Russia is a true embarrassment to this forum.

DocBarrister

Uncle Joe was our ally. We could not have won WW II without him & the millions of Russians who died.

Go flame on Germany. They won't allow the rest of NATO to give Ukraine the tanks they want to give, which are exactly what the Ukrainians need to break the stalemate.

[Seacoaster(1)]

This guy is just such a disgrace:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/pu ... 023-01-19/

""The defeat of a nuclear power in a conventional war may trigger a nuclear war," former Russian President Dmitry Medvedev, who serves as deputy chairman of Putin's powerful security council, said in a post on Telegram.

"Nuclear powers have never lost major conflicts on which their fate depends," said Medvedev, who served as president from 2008 to 2012."

So if you have nukes, and you start a war for whatever reason, the international community has to let you win, or face the country's nuclear arsenal. This is a terrorist state, operated by war criminals. The West has to see it through to the end, and that end has to be a humbling of the RF.

[Typical Lax Dad]

For Salty - not everyone agrees about your opinions whether Ukraine is separate from Russia - it is apparently not a new concept to Ukrainians either (and for quite some time)

"In the late 1960s during one of the U.S.-USSR Track Meets, sportscaster Jim McKay of ABC started to interview Valeriy Borzov saying "I am here with the great Russian sprinter Valeriy Borzov". Borzov interrupted by saying, "I am not Russian, I am Ukrainian" and walked away."

BFD. How many Divisions did Borzov command ?

https://www.shmoop.com/quotes/how-many- ... 20millions.

It is not the responsibility of the USA to facilitate the further dismemberment of the Russian nation.
With real threats to the US from China, Iran, N Korea, & drug cartels turning our hemisphere into a collection of corrupt narco states, we do not have the resources or duty to also reconcile the grievances among the citizens of the former Russian nation.

(1) Quoting the scumbag Stalin, one of the most monstrous genocidal/homicidal tyrants in human history is pretty repugnant.

(2) Russia is a greater threat than China, Iran, North Korea and the drug cartels because Russia actually started a war and has committed numerous atrocities and war crimes.

(3) Ukraine isn’t part of Russia and you need to understand and acknowledge that before saying anything else about this criminal war.

Your support of Russia is a true embarrassment to this forum.

DocBarrister

Uncle Joe was our ally. We could not have won WW II without him & the millions of Russians who died.

Go flame on Germany. They won't allow the rest of NATO to give Ukraine the tanks they want to give, which are exactly what the Ukrainians need to break the stalemate.

What they need is for Russia to withdraw. Putin can make this easy.

[old salt]

The Germans are proving that they are not a reliable ally. They are preventing other NATO allies from donating their German made Leopard tanks, which are the only practical option. The Brits can't give enough Challengers & US M1 Abrams are too heavy, complex & maint intensive. The Abrams are designed for massive US Army divisions, fighting in all terrain & theaters (including desert). Leopards are optimized for NATO armies operating in small units on European terrain. Some EU/NATO members other than Germany are willing to donate their Leopards to Ukraine. They're the only realistic option.

We're in an arms race to determine if we can arm & train Ukrainian forces faster than Russia can rearm & reinforce their forces in Ukraine.
This could be decisive.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/21/europe/u ... index.html

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/nation ... -rcna66753

[MDlaxfan76]

The Germans are proving that they are not a reliable ally. They are preventing other NATO allies from donating their German made Leopard tanks, which are the only practical option. The Brits can't give enough Challengers & US M1 Abrams are too heavy, complex & maint intensive. The Abrams are designed for massive US Army divisions, fighting in all terrain & theaters (including desert). Leopards are optimized for NATO armies operating in small units on European terrain. Some EU/NATO members other than Germany are willing to donate their Leopards to Ukraine. They're the only realistic option.

We're in an arms race to determine if we can arm & train Ukrainian forces faster than Russia can rearm & reinforce their forces in Ukraine.
This could be decisive.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/21/europe/u ... index.html

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/nation ... -rcna66753

Watcha wanna bet that the Germans accede to these requests? And, second bet, send some Leopards of their own?

Those discussions are going on right now...stay tuned for progress these next weeks.

I agree, it's a race to provide all the weaponry and training necessary to decisively defeat the Russian war machine.

The US is going to need to be clear that we're handling other crucial elements, and that the Abrams are not as supportable as the Leopards, so Germany needs to step up with what they have that will help the most.

And the German population needs to keep putting pressure on...of course, there's a whole lot Russian financed opposition in Germany, so that needs to be addressed as well.

I'd bet that's what is happening in those discussions.

Sooner the better, of course.

We may send some Abrams as well, but I think the better use of our resources, incrementally to what others have to provide, would be longer range, precision weapons.

[DocBarrister]

For Salty - not everyone agrees about your opinions whether Ukraine is separate from Russia - it is apparently not a new concept to Ukrainians either (and for quite some time)

"In the late 1960s during one of the U.S.-USSR Track Meets, sportscaster Jim McKay of ABC started to interview Valeriy Borzov saying "I am here with the great Russian sprinter Valeriy Borzov". Borzov interrupted by saying, "I am not Russian, I am Ukrainian" and walked away."

BFD. How many Divisions did Borzov command ?

https://www.shmoop.com/quotes/how-many- ... 20millions.

It is not the responsibility of the USA to facilitate the further dismemberment of the Russian nation.
With real threats to the US from China, Iran, N Korea, & drug cartels turning our hemisphere into a collection of corrupt narco states, we do not have the resources or duty to also reconcile the grievances among the citizens of the former Russian nation.

(1) Quoting the scumbag Stalin, one of the most monstrous genocidal/homicidal tyrants in human history is pretty repugnant.

(2) Russia is a greater threat than China, Iran, North Korea and the drug cartels because Russia actually started a war and has committed numerous atrocities and war crimes.

(3) Ukraine isn’t part of Russia and you need to understand and acknowledge that before saying anything else about this criminal war.

Your support of Russia is a true embarrassment to this forum.

DocBarrister

Uncle Joe was our ally. We could not have won WW II without him & the millions of Russians who died.

Go flame on Germany. They won't allow the rest of NATO to give Ukraine the tanks they want to give, which are exactly what the Ukrainians need to break the stalemate.

Defending Joseph Stalin is a new low for you.

In addition, you have history backwards. First, the USSR was originally an ally of Hitler and Nazi Germany. Then after Hitler’s betrayal, the United States provided the USSR with over $11 billion in military and other aid, equivalent to $180 billion today.

https://ru.usembassy.gov/world-war-ii-a ... 1941-1945/

And how did Russia repay the West? With half a century of murderous tyranny and imperialist domination. And now war crimes against Ukraine.

Your rooting for Putin and Russia is nothing short of a betrayal.

DocBarrister

[a fan]

For Salty - not everyone agrees about your opinions whether Ukraine is separate from Russia - it is apparently not a new concept to Ukrainians either (and for quite some time)

"In the late 1960s during one of the U.S.-USSR Track Meets, sportscaster Jim McKay of ABC started to interview Valeriy Borzov saying "I am here with the great Russian sprinter Valeriy Borzov". Borzov interrupted by saying, "I am not Russian, I am Ukrainian" and walked away."

BFD. How many Divisions did Borzov command ?

https://www.shmoop.com/quotes/how-many- ... 20millions.

It is not the responsibility of the USA to facilitate the further dismemberment of the Russian nation.
With real threats to the US from China, Iran, N Korea, & drug cartels turning our hemisphere into a collection of corrupt narco states, we do not have the resources or duty to also reconcile the grievances among the citizens of the former Russian nation.

(1) Quoting the scumbag Stalin, one of the most monstrous genocidal/homicidal tyrants in human history is pretty repugnant.

(2) Russia is a greater threat than China, Iran, North Korea and the drug cartels because Russia actually started a war and has committed numerous atrocities and war crimes.

(3) Ukraine isn’t part of Russia and you need to understand and acknowledge that before saying anything else about this criminal war.

Your support of Russia is a true embarrassment to this forum.

DocBarrister

Uncle Joe was our ally. We could not have won WW II without him & the millions of Russians who died.

Go flame on Germany. They won't allow the rest of NATO to give Ukraine the tanks they want to give, which are exactly what the Ukrainians need to break the stalemate.

Defending Joseph Stalin is a new low for you.

What are you talking about? Russia could have joined Germany.....they didn't. They exposed Hitler to a two front war, which sealed his fate.

I'm grateful to those Russians for helping us win. It's not at all likely that we would have won without their help, Doc. Do you not know how many Russians died for the Allied cause?

[cradleandshoot]

The Germans are proving that they are not a reliable ally. They are preventing other NATO allies from donating their German made Leopard tanks, which are the only practical option. The Brits can't give enough Challengers & US M1 Abrams are too heavy, complex & maint intensive. The Abrams are designed for massive US Army divisions, fighting in all terrain & theaters (including desert). Leopards are optimized for NATO armies operating in small units on European terrain. Some EU/NATO members other than Germany are willing to donate their Leopards to Ukraine. They're the only realistic option.

We're in an arms race to determine if we can arm & train Ukrainian forces faster than Russia can rearm & reinforce their forces in Ukraine.
This could be decisive.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/21/europe/u ... index.html

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/nation ... -rcna66753

Watcha wanna bet that the Germans accede to these requests? And, second bet, send some Leopards of their own?

Those discussions are going on right now...stay tuned for progress these next weeks.

I agree, it's a race to provide all the weaponry and training necessary to decisively defeat the Russian war machine.

The US is going to need to be clear that we're handling other crucial elements, and that the Abrams are not as supportable as the Leopards, so Germany needs to step up with what they have that will help the most.

And the German population needs to keep putting pressure on...of course, there's a whole lot Russian financed opposition in Germany, so that needs to be addressed as well.

I'd bet that's what is happening in those discussions.

Sooner the better, of course.

We may send some Abrams as well, but I think the better use of our resources, incrementally to what others have to provide, would be longer range, precision weapons.

We will not send Abrams tanks to Ukraine period end of story. That is not because the M1 is not superior in combat capability to the German Leopard. You only have to look no further MD than the 1500 horse turbine engine that propels the M1 Abrams. It is a devastating weapons platform. The Ukrainians have no capability to support this weapon platform. The fuel used in the M1 is pretty much jet fuel . The Leopard is a much more practical tank for the Ukrainians. The short term answer is massive amounts of anti tank weapons. They may be old and outdated but our TOW missiles can be mounted on a variety of platforms and will destroy a main battle tank before the TC even sees it. Especially if the tank is buttoned up. I watched them launched when I was in the army on several occasions from tubes mounted on the old us army jeep. They are very fast and the launch platform only requires the gunner to keep the cross hairs on the target. The TOW gunners use to joke the only option the TC had if he saw a TOW missile heading towards their tank to bail the hell out of the vehicle ASAP. I don't know what the inventory of the TOW missiles systems are. They are old school technology but if memory serves me correct they can still destroy any tank still in existence. IMO they and similar anti tank weapons are still a lethal alternative.

[Kismet]

For Salty - not everyone agrees about your opinions whether Ukraine is separate from Russia - it is apparently not a new concept to Ukrainians either (and for quite some time)

"In the late 1960s during one of the U.S.-USSR Track Meets, sportscaster Jim McKay of ABC started to interview Valeriy Borzov saying "I am here with the great Russian sprinter Valeriy Borzov". Borzov interrupted by saying, "I am not Russian, I am Ukrainian" and walked away."

BFD. How many Divisions did Borzov command ?

https://www.shmoop.com/quotes/how-many- ... 20millions.

It is not the responsibility of the USA to facilitate the further dismemberment of the Russian nation.
With real threats to the US from China, Iran, N Korea, & drug cartels turning our hemisphere into a collection of corrupt narco states, we do not have the resources or duty to also reconcile the grievances among the citizens of the former Russian nation.

(1) Quoting the scumbag Stalin, one of the most monstrous genocidal/homicidal tyrants in human history is pretty repugnant.

(2) Russia is a greater threat than China, Iran, North Korea and the drug cartels because Russia actually started a war and has committed numerous atrocities and war crimes.

(3) Ukraine isn’t part of Russia and you need to understand and acknowledge that before saying anything else about this criminal war.

Your support of Russia is a true embarrassment to this forum.

DocBarrister

Uncle Joe was our ally. We could not have won WW II without him & the millions of Russians who died.

Go flame on Germany. They won't allow the rest of NATO to give Ukraine the tanks they want to give, which are exactly what the Ukrainians need to break the stalemate.

Defending Joseph Stalin is a new low for you.

What are you talking about? Russia could have joined Germany.....they didn't. They exposed Hitler to a two front war, which sealed his fate.

I'm grateful to those Russians for helping us win. It's not at all likely that we would have won without their help, Doc. Do you not know how many Russians died for the Allied cause?

Actually Stalin originally signed a non--aggression pact with Hitler in the 1939 (Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact). Then Hitler reneged and invaded Russia in 1941(Operation Barbarossa).