ODAC 2023

[InsiderRoll]

HSC roster is up with 6 freshman, competing with Averett for fewest freshman. I see Will Perry is back for a fifth year who graduated 2016 from North Cross School. What G program does HSC participate in

6 is very low. Last fall, HSC Instagram introduced 13 new freshman. I find it hard to believe a majority of them dropped

And how can HSC have 5th year players? They don’t have a grad program.

He just stays and keeps taking classes, no grad degree. Just burning mom and dads money so he can keep partying and playing lacrosse. Kids been in college for 6 years with no advanced degree.

Some gaps in the resume but a reasonable guess is 25 years old. Turning and raking at that age has to get a little old.

Stetson Bennet at Georgia was 25 winning a National Championship. I guess living the dream means different things to different people

Stetson Bennett has a 1.3million dollar NIL valuation. I’d say his income is only going to go down by leaving UGA.

[allthingsODAC]

HSC roster is up with 6 freshman, competing with Averett for fewest freshman. I see Will Perry is back for a fifth year who graduated 2016 from North Cross School. What G program does HSC participate in

6 is very low. Last fall, HSC Instagram introduced 13 new freshman. I find it hard to believe a majority of them dropped

And how can HSC have 5th year players? They don’t have a grad program.

He just stays and keeps taking classes, no grad degree. Just burning mom and dads money so he can keep partying and playing lacrosse. Kids been in college for 6 years with no advanced degree.

Some gaps in the resume but a reasonable guess is 25 years old. Turning and raking at that age has to get a little old.

Stetson Bennet at Georgia was 25 winning a National Championship. I guess living the dream means different things to different people

From what I have heard Perry took a gap year before HSC and credits didn't transfer so came in as a freshmen which leads to why he's still there. Great for HSC though really proved himself as a keeper over the last two season sure they are happy.

[HooDat]

like it is anyone's business why he has taken the path he has taken.

[JustOneTime]

Exactly

[Laxguy703]

Taking a stab at the rankings. I expect this year to be a down year for the ODAC. A lot of young talent in this league right now, but due to Covid, 5th years, and the transfer portal, it’s going to be hard to compete with the top D3 teams right now because they are all benefiting off of those things (Think CNU, Salisbury, RIT, York)

1. Lynchburg - They lose 3 AA level players on offense, but return the two best players in the ODAC from my POV in Mitchell and Darminio. Coach K always has these guys playing hard and I’d be surprised if they don’t make the ODAC Finals.
2. W&L - Very young team last year that returns some very good talent. Will be very hard to replace their goalie who single handily kept them in some games last year. Talented Freshman class and I expect Soph Hillis Burns to make some noise this year.
3. Roanoke - Return the best attackman in the ODAC in Kammerman. Very average everywhere else but they return the most out of everyone so it’s hard to put them any lower.
4. Hampden-Sydney - Lose their 2 best offensive players. Return mostly everyone else though. They have a good Defense and a great goalie. I expect their LSM Kilfeather to do well. Who’s taking face offs??
5. Randolph-Macon - I don’t think everyone realizes how much they lose. They lost 3 AA’s in Smith, Ruelle, and Averna. They also lost two 4 year starters in Marsilio and Tiffey. Their freshman goalie last year showed a lot of promise but he’s not on the team anymore. I’m not entirely sure how good they will be but I do know they will be leaning heavily on former ODAC ROY Jack Smith.

Pretty big gap

6. Bridgewater- best mid tier team in the ODAC and they do return some high scorers. Could see them upsetting RMC or HSC. How did they only lose to RPI by 2 last year ?!
7. Shenandoah - don’t have a great read on them. Lose some guys but also return some talented players.

Massive gap

8. Guilford
9. Va. Wesleyan
10. Ferrum
11. Averett
12. Randolph

[Jumbo]

Taking a stab at the rankings. I expect this year to be a down year for the ODAC. A lot of young talent in this league right now, but due to Covid, 5th years, and the transfer portal, it’s going to be hard to compete with the top D3 teams right now because they are all benefiting off of those things (Think CNU, Salisbury, RIT, York)

1. Lynchburg - They lose 3 AA level players on offense, but return the two best players in the ODAC from my POV in Mitchell and Darminio. Coach K always has these guys playing hard and I’d be surprised if they don’t make the ODAC Finals.
2. W&L - Very young team last year that returns some very good talent. Will be very hard to replace their goalie who single handily kept them in some games last year. Talented Freshman class and I expect Soph Hillis Burns to make some noise this year.
3. Roanoke - Return the best attackman in the ODAC in Kammerman. Very average everywhere else but they return the most out of everyone so it’s hard to put them any lower.
4. Hampden-Sydney - Lose their 2 best offensive players. Return mostly everyone else though. They have a good Defense and a great goalie. I expect their LSM Kilfeather to do well. Who’s taking face offs??
5. Randolph-Macon - I don’t think everyone realizes how much they lose. They lost 3 AA’s in Smith, Ruelle, and Averna. They also lost two 4 year starters in Marsilio and Tiffey. Their freshman goalie last year showed a lot of promise but he’s not on the team anymore. I’m not entirely sure how good they will be but I do know they will be leaning heavily on former ODAC ROY Jack Smith.

Pretty big gap

6. Bridgewater- best mid tier team in the ODAC and they do return some high scorers. Could see them upsetting RMC or HSC. How did they only lose to RPI by 2 last year ?!
7. Shenandoah - don’t have a great read on them. Lose some guys but also return some talented players.

Massive gap

8. Guilford
9. Va. Wesleyan
10. Ferrum
11. Averett
12. Randolph

How are the teams you mentioned, benefiting in ways that ODAC schools can’t? Every ODAC school can get transfers, they all can have 5th year players.

[Laxguy703]

Taking a stab at the rankings. I expect this year to be a down year for the ODAC. A lot of young talent in this league right now, but due to Covid, 5th years, and the transfer portal, it’s going to be hard to compete with the top D3 teams right now because they are all benefiting off of those things (Think CNU, Salisbury, RIT, York)

1. Lynchburg - They lose 3 AA level players on offense, but return the two best players in the ODAC from my POV in Mitchell and Darminio. Coach K always has these guys playing hard and I’d be surprised if they don’t make the ODAC Finals.
2. W&L - Very young team last year that returns some very good talent. Will be very hard to replace their goalie who single handily kept them in some games last year. Talented Freshman class and I expect Soph Hillis Burns to make some noise this year.
3. Roanoke - Return the best attackman in the ODAC in Kammerman. Very average everywhere else but they return the most out of everyone so it’s hard to put them any lower.
4. Hampden-Sydney - Lose their 2 best offensive players. Return mostly everyone else though. They have a good Defense and a great goalie. I expect their LSM Kilfeather to do well. Who’s taking face offs??
5. Randolph-Macon - I don’t think everyone realizes how much they lose. They lost 3 AA’s in Smith, Ruelle, and Averna. They also lost two 4 year starters in Marsilio and Tiffey. Their freshman goalie last year showed a lot of promise but he’s not on the team anymore. I’m not entirely sure how good they will be but I do know they will be leaning heavily on former ODAC ROY Jack Smith.

Pretty big gap

6. Bridgewater- best mid tier team in the ODAC and they do return some high scorers. Could see them upsetting RMC or HSC. How did they only lose to RPI by 2 last year ?!
7. Shenandoah - don’t have a great read on them. Lose some guys but also return some talented players.

Massive gap

8. Guilford
9. Va. Wesleyan
10. Ferrum
11. Averett
12. Randolph

How are the teams you mentioned, benefiting in ways that ODAC schools can’t? Every ODAC school can get transfers, they all can have 5th year players.

I never said they can’t. What I meant is that they aren’t taking advantage of excess amount of kids transferring and using 5th years.

CNU had Ryan Young(preseason 1st AA), Burke Widhelm(2nd team AA) and Andrew Cook(2nd team AA) all transfer in the last 2 years. They had 10 5th years last year and have 5 this year.

Salisbury had Dowd(3rd team AA) transfer in and had multiple impactful 5th years over the last couple of years.

York hasn’t had many transfers, but they have had a handful of impactful guys stay for 5th and 6th years over the past few years.

RIT’s team was led by 5th years last year and they have had multiple grad transfers come in and help out.

When you look at the ODAC, you don’t see teams bringing in multiple impactful transfers or big time players staying for 5th years as frequently as the teams I mentioned.

Lynchburg lost Kenny to Babson and Lewis to OSU. Rogers also decided to not stay for a 5th year.

Hampden-Sydney lost Duffy to St. John’s and will be Losing Morgan to UNC. Claggat decided not to stay for a 5th year

RMC lost Marsilio to Vermont and Smith to Richmond. Averna decided not to stay for a 5th year.

I can go on and on…

There are so many different reasons this can happen (Major, Tuition, personal reasons) but my main point is that you don’t see the ODAC being dominated by 5th years or bringing in big time transfers from good D1 schools. The only exception over the last few years was the 2021 Lynchburg team and we saw how good they were.

[JustPassingThrough]

I believe that Lynchburg and Shenandoah are the only lacrosse programs in the top half of the ODAC with grad programs. (Not counting W&L law school, which would make for a very challenging Law 1 + Lacrosse 5 pairing). Very different from several of those Top 10 D3 programs that keep kids for a 5th year.

[InsiderRoll]

Taking a stab at the rankings. I expect this year to be a down year for the ODAC. A lot of young talent in this league right now, but due to Covid, 5th years, and the transfer portal, it’s going to be hard to compete with the top D3 teams right now because they are all benefiting off of those things (Think CNU, Salisbury, RIT, York)

1. Lynchburg - They lose 3 AA level players on offense, but return the two best players in the ODAC from my POV in Mitchell and Darminio. Coach K always has these guys playing hard and I’d be surprised if they don’t make the ODAC Finals.
2. W&L - Very young team last year that returns some very good talent. Will be very hard to replace their goalie who single handily kept them in some games last year. Talented Freshman class and I expect Soph Hillis Burns to make some noise this year.
3. Roanoke - Return the best attackman in the ODAC in Kammerman. Very average everywhere else but they return the most out of everyone so it’s hard to put them any lower.
4. Hampden-Sydney - Lose their 2 best offensive players. Return mostly everyone else though. They have a good Defense and a great goalie. I expect their LSM Kilfeather to do well. Who’s taking face offs??
5. Randolph-Macon - I don’t think everyone realizes how much they lose. They lost 3 AA’s in Smith, Ruelle, and Averna. They also lost two 4 year starters in Marsilio and Tiffey. Their freshman goalie last year showed a lot of promise but he’s not on the team anymore. I’m not entirely sure how good they will be but I do know they will be leaning heavily on former ODAC ROY Jack Smith.

Pretty big gap

6. Bridgewater- best mid tier team in the ODAC and they do return some high scorers. Could see them upsetting RMC or HSC. How did they only lose to RPI by 2 last year ?!
7. Shenandoah - don’t have a great read on them. Lose some guys but also return some talented players.

Massive gap

8. Guilford
9. Va. Wesleyan
10. Ferrum
11. Averett
12. Randolph

How are the teams you mentioned, benefiting in ways that ODAC schools can’t? Every ODAC school can get transfers, they all can have 5th year players.

I never said they can’t. What I meant is that they aren’t taking advantage of excess amount of kids transferring and using 5th years.

CNU had Ryan Young(preseason 1st AA), Burke Widhelm(2nd team AA) and Andrew Cook(2nd team AA) all transfer in the last 2 years. They had 10 5th years last year and have 5 this year.

Salisbury had Dowd(3rd team AA) transfer in and had multiple impactful 5th years over the last couple of years.

York hasn’t had many transfers, but they have had a handful of impactful guys stay for 5th and 6th years over the past few years.

RIT’s team was led by 5th years last year and they have had multiple grad transfers come in and help out.

When you look at the ODAC, you don’t see teams bringing in multiple impactful transfers or big time players staying for 5th years as frequently as the teams I mentioned.

Lynchburg lost Kenny to Babson and Lewis to OSU. Rogers also decided to not stay for a 5th year.

Hampden-Sydney lost Duffy to St. John’s and will be Losing Morgan to UNC. Claggat decided not to stay for a 5th year

RMC lost Marsilio to Vermont and Smith to Richmond. Averna decided not to stay for a 5th year.

I can go on and on…

There are so many different reasons this can happen (Major, Tuition, personal reasons) but my main point is that you don’t see the ODAC being dominated by 5th years or bringing in big time transfers from good D1 schools. The only exception over the last few years was the 2021 Lynchburg team and we saw how good they were.

Most of the ODAC does not have grad programs. Koudelka never has been a huge transfer guy. Although they had a transfer from Towson and VMI last year and they both rode the bench.

W&L only accepts about 5 transfers a year as a university. Sometimes 0! I also know at Washington and Lee the university will not allow you to delay graduation. Similar to what you’re seeing with Princeton, you have to go through a sea of waivers just to try it and most get denied. Not to mention like many of the NESCAC, they all have $100k job offers by the time they start their senior year. Their best player Harris Hubbard is a transfer. Apparently Brandau wanted to transfer there but admissions said no. He is at Dickinson now.

Roanoke has a new MBA program but it is only available to Roanoke students, not grad transfers. So perhaps you’ll see some 5th years in coming years there. Roanoke has two new D1 transfers for 2023.

HSC has no grad programs. Perry was a transfer from Middlebury. He is now a 6th year All American. Hope was a transfer from VMI. There may be a few others on that list.

RMC has no grad programs that I’m aware of.

[Laxdds]

"They all have 100K job offers by the time they start their senior year"

Don't want to be nit picking here because W&L is an outstanding school and their alumni do extremely well but that is a huge statement. According to W&L's own website 2.7% of their grads are making 100K or higher 6 months post graduation and 79.3% are making 75K or lower (I am sure the number of people in grad school drags this number down), but I see the point you are making.
https://my.wlu.edu/accreditation-and-in ... graduation

[InsiderRoll]

"They all have 100K job offers by the time they start their senior year"

Don't want to be nit picking here because W&L is an outstanding school and their alumni do extremely well but that is a huge statement. According to W&L's own website 2.7% of their grads are making 100K or higher 6 months post graduation and 79.3% are making 75K or lower (I am sure the number of people in grad school drags this number down), but I see the point you are making.
https://my.wlu.edu/accreditation-and-in ... graduation

About 90% of the men’s Lacrosse guys are business school guys pursuing investment banking. They aren’t French lit majors.

Average NYC financial analyst starting salary is $93k with $24.5k bonus. Looking at their posted job placement for men’s Lacrosse according to social media. 12/14 seniors took financial analyst jobs in NYC, 1 took an aerospace engineering job, and 1 is at Vanderbilt med school.

This is the case at most NESCAC and Ivy schools as well.

[NNELax]

The Aerospace engineering guy might make the most fresh out

[DeepPocket]

"They all have 100K job offers by the time they start their senior year"

Don't want to be nit picking here because W&L is an outstanding school and their alumni do extremely well but that is a huge statement. According to W&L's own website 2.7% of their grads are making 100K or higher 6 months post graduation and 79.3% are making 75K or lower (I am sure the number of people in grad school drags this number down), but I see the point you are making.
https://my.wlu.edu/accreditation-and-in ... graduation

+1.

Obviously it’s “high academic,” obviously it prepares people for success post graduation. But the fact of the matter is they’re not in the Ivy or the NESCAC.

They have their own brand recognition, but it isn’t that of Yale, Tufts, Harvard, or Wesleyan. All these posts trying to shoehorn W&L in with the “NESCAC and Ivy” or bringing up salaries are tiresome and wreak of excuses, not pride.

[Jumbo]

"They all have 100K job offers by the time they start their senior year"

Don't want to be nit picking here because W&L is an outstanding school and their alumni do extremely well but that is a huge statement. According to W&L's own website 2.7% of their grads are making 100K or higher 6 months post graduation and 79.3% are making 75K or lower (I am sure the number of people in grad school drags this number down), but I see the point you are making.
https://my.wlu.edu/accreditation-and-in ... graduation

+1.

Obviously it’s “high academic,” obviously it prepares people for success post graduation. But the fact of the matter is they’re not in the Ivy or the NESCAC.

They have their own brand recognition, but it isn’t that of Yale, Tufts, Harvard, or Wesleyan. All these posts trying to shoehorn W&L in with the “NESCAC and Ivy” or bringing up salaries are tiresome and wreak of excuses, not pride.

W&L is one of the top academic schools in the country. The acceptance rate is around 15%. I think they have every right to be proud.

It’s the whining about not having a bunch of 5th year players seems odd.

[DeepPocket]

"They all have 100K job offers by the time they start their senior year"

Don't want to be nit picking here because W&L is an outstanding school and their alumni do extremely well but that is a huge statement. According to W&L's own website 2.7% of their grads are making 100K or higher 6 months post graduation and 79.3% are making 75K or lower (I am sure the number of people in grad school drags this number down), but I see the point you are making.
https://my.wlu.edu/accreditation-and-in ... graduation

+1.

Obviously it’s “high academic,” obviously it prepares people for success post graduation. But the fact of the matter is they’re not in the Ivy or the NESCAC.

They have their own brand recognition, but it isn’t that of Yale, Tufts, Harvard, or Wesleyan. All these posts trying to shoehorn W&L in with the “NESCAC and Ivy” or bringing up salaries are tiresome and wreak of excuses, not pride.

W&L is one of the top academic schools in the country. The acceptance rate is around 15%. I think they have every right to be proud.

It’s the whining about not having a bunch of 5th year players seems odd.

Correct. They have 100% right to be proud. But what we’re seeing here is all framed as lacrosse related excuses.

It also seems very odd to constantly bring up these other conferences as if to quantify or validate them...

[InsiderRoll]

"They all have 100K job offers by the time they start their senior year"

Don't want to be nit picking here because W&L is an outstanding school and their alumni do extremely well but that is a huge statement. According to W&L's own website 2.7% of their grads are making 100K or higher 6 months post graduation and 79.3% are making 75K or lower (I am sure the number of people in grad school drags this number down), but I see the point you are making.
https://my.wlu.edu/accreditation-and-in ... graduation

+1.

Obviously it’s “high academic,” obviously it prepares people for success post graduation. But the fact of the matter is they’re not in the Ivy or the NESCAC.

They have their own brand recognition, but it isn’t that of Yale, Tufts, Harvard, or Wesleyan. All these posts trying to shoehorn W&L in with the “NESCAC and Ivy” or bringing up salaries are tiresome and wreak of excuses, not pride.

W&L is one of the top academic schools in the country. The acceptance rate is around 15%. I think they have every right to be proud.

It’s the whining about not having a bunch of 5th year players seems odd.

Look there’s a ton of fantastic schools out there. Ivy and NESCAC are athletic conferences. Stanford and Georgetown would likely be Ivy schools if their geographic proximity made sense. But it doesn’t. W&L was a founding member of the original SEC, their school had a very different strategy at different stages of their 200+ year history. W&L was also ranked the #1 liberal arts college in country as recently as 2022 - not that it really means that much.

As for 5th years, everyone has their niche recruiting, it’s up to staffs to figure that out and capitalize. Yes, some schools are better built for success than others. I’m not complaining, it is what it is and everyone is dealing with it in their own way. Somebody asked why the ODAC doesn’t take advantage, I stated what I knew about the schools at the top. It’s hard to take grad transfers if you don’t have grad programs.

W&L in particular is probably more of a first choice School than other places. They should really be getting a better player the first time around. “Higher in the pecking order” if they can’t close that’s on them.

[DeepPocket]

…W&L in particular is probably more of a first choice School than other places. They should really be getting a better player the first time around. “Higher in the pecking order” if they can’t close that’s on them.

I envision a student applying to W&L, with the intent to also play lacrosse there, as having excellent academics, extracurriculars, athleticism, & character, along with likely a financially capable family.

What other schools do you see the above described individual applying to? (Intended career path aside)

My bet would be some schools with pretty big names.

[Laxdds]

I think we can all agree W&L is a great school.

Back to the question at hand re: 5th yr and in some cases 6th year players. When is that going away?

Or is it a side effect of the COVID years that will be with us from now on. I think we can all agree that if a D3 school can enroll 2, 3, or 4 players that are 22-23 years old and have 4 years of collegiate playing experience, those schools will have an advantage over schools that can't or maybe won't.

How much of an advantage is the question.

Allowing those players that were screwed by COVID a chance to make some of that up was the fair thing to do and am glad the NCAA did it, my personal opinion going forward is, if you have completed you undergraduate degree and have been on a roster for 4 years that should be the end.

[InsiderRoll]

…W&L in particular is probably more of a first choice School than other places. They should really be getting a better player the first time around. “Higher in the pecking order” if they can’t close that’s on them.

I envision a student applying to W&L, with the intent to also play lacrosse there, as having excellent academics, extracurriculars, athleticism, & character, along with likely a financially capable family.

What other schools do you see the above described individual applying to? (Intended career path aside)

My bet would be some schools with pretty big names.

The typical non athlete W&L applicant is probably looking at Ivys, NESCACS, Georgetown, Vanderbilt, Emory, UVA, etc. (Sure others)

I meant by comparison to the other schools mentioned. Hampden-Sydney, Roanoke. - also F&M, Gettysburg, Dickinson, etc.

Kids don’t turn down W&L to go to those places.

Just like kids don’t turn down Yale and Harvard to play at Williams or W&L. And Kids don’t turn down Williams to go to Trinity.

Kids don’t turn down York to go to Alvernia. There’s a pecking order.

And yes there are is an extremely high number of very talented kids that either can’t gain admission or are passed over for whatever reason (sometimes errantly or in poor judgement) by places like W&L and Middlebury etc.

W&L, Middlebury, Amherst, Williams, Tufts, Wesleyan are what many would call first choice institutions. There are kids that dream of being at schools like that - lacrosse aside. They don’t “lose” recruiting battles to schools that aren’t in that tier, if they do it’s rare.

Obviously the big equalizers are cost of attendance, admissions, and D1 vs D3 mentality, but generally speaking those types of schools are more desirable to people.

I’ll give an example. If you put anyone at Middlebury, W&L, Amherst as a head coach they will at the very least recruit well. They may not win, culture may suck, whatever - but some pretty decent players will still end up there. And yes, not nearly as many as they are capable of having. If you took child’s from York and placed a poor coach there, their recruiting would really struggle. Their success is more a result of a great coaching staff, clear vision, team culture, and yes the school has some appeal. But they as a university it’s a small regional college.

[ReturnOfTheWAC]

I think we can all agree W&L is a great school.

Back to the question at hand re: 5th yr and in some cases 6th year players. When is that going away?

Or is it a side effect of the COVID years that will be with us from now on. I think we can all agree that if a D3 school can enroll 2, 3, or 4 players that are 22-23 years old and have 4 years of collegiate playing experience, those schools will have an advantage over schools that can't or maybe won't.

How much of an advantage is the question.

Allowing those players that were screwed by COVID a chance to make some of that up was the fair thing to do and am glad the NCAA did it, my personal opinion going forward is, if you have completed you undergraduate degree and have been on a roster for 4 years that should be the end.

Is it really that big of a deal? The best programs historically get the best players. Salisbury, Lynchburg, York, RIT(Maybe) have really been the only schools to keep their 5th and 6th year "impact players". News flash the best programs have been doing that for years just at the undergrad level. According to my son the transfer portal has plenty of d3 kids in it but they are most likely looking for a different experience (D1). The covid extra years granted end technically in 4 years(the current juniors on the field could play 4 more years counting this one), but as we get further and further away from the pandemic like most I would expect less and less players to stay. Again coaches, players, fans, want their schools to win, I dont blame them for trying to do so. I say this as a parent who's son coaches at a pretty good school with no grad school