All Things Russia & Ukraine

[MDlaxfan76]

Brookie, surely you of all people know that there's a whole mess of stuff that the Founding Father's didn't approve of that you're not all that happy about. They weren't exactly the high water mark for morality in America.

Giving away our money while thousands of people remain homeless or impoverished ain't exactly a mark of morality, either.

It's entirely fair to make an argument that we should do more to combat poverty and homelessness...and disease and despair, etc, etc. The Founding Fathers didn't make those particular moral arguments, but no issue with you doing so, if you'd like.

But is it really a choice, a tradeoff required between those priorities and maintaining a world in which America and Americans do prosper?

Or is that the false paradigm we've been sold?

[PizzaSnake]

yup, "some people"..."jeepers"...

What are you saying, that the Founders would approve of financing such foreign entanglements??

The "Founders" would have had great difficulty of even imagining the world in which we live, and from which America has so prospered. Pretty sure they were quite thankful for the assistance of the French, though.

Have to be able to imagine this interconnected world and why it's so important that it continue to evolve towards freedom and democracy, principles our Founders espoused as not being unique to America, but rather as inalienable rights...but some things are more simple: a bully is trying to subdue though any means, any atrocity, a country it claims to have the right to do so to.

We have the capacity to stop that bully and to maintain an international rule of law that enables this interconnected world to continue to evolve along the principles our Founders certainly did articulate.

Exactly. Okay, not exactly my sentiments, but close.

Read this?

“The Ideological Origins of the American Revolution” — B. Bailyn

“The modernization of American Politics and government during and after the Revolution took the form of a sudden, radical realization of the program that had first been fully set forth by the opposition intelligentsia ... in the reign of George the First. Where the English opposition, forcing its way against a complacent social and political order, had only striven and dreamed, Americans driven by the same aspirations but living in a society in many ways modern, and now released politically, could suddenly act. Where the French opposition had vainly agitated for partial reforms ... American leaders moved swiftly and with little social disruption to implement systematically the outermost possibilities of the whole range of radically libertarian ideas. In the process they ... infused into American political culture ... the major themes of eighteenth-century radical libertarianism brought to realization here. The first is the belief that power is evil, a necessity perhaps but an evil necessity; that it is infinitely corrupting; and that it must be controlled, limited, restricted in every way compatible with a minimum of civil order. Written constitutions; the separation of powers; bill of rights; limitations on executives, on legislatures, and courts; restrictions on the right to coerce and wage war—all express the profound distrust of power that lies at the ideological heart of the American Revolution and that has remained with us as a permanent legacy ever after.”

[MDlaxfan76]

yup, "some people"..."jeepers"...

What are you saying, that the Founders would approve of financing such foreign entanglements??

The "Founders" would have had great difficulty of even imagining the world in which we live, and from which America has so prospered. Pretty sure they were quite thankful for the assistance of the French, though.

Have to be able to imagine this interconnected world and why it's so important that it continue to evolve towards freedom and democracy, principles our Founders espoused as not being unique to America, but rather as inalienable rights...but some things are more simple: a bully is trying to subdue though any means, any atrocity, a country it claims to have the right to do so to.

We have the capacity to stop that bully and to maintain an international rule of law that enables this interconnected world to continue to evolve along the principles our Founders certainly did articulate.

Exactly. Okay, not exactly my sentiments, but close.

Read this?

“The Ideological Origins of the American Revolution” — B. Bailyn

“The modernization of American Politics and government during and after the Revolution took the form of a sudden, radical realization of the program that had first been fully set forth by the opposition intelligentsia ... in the reign of George the First. Where the English opposition, forcing its way against a complacent social and political order, had only striven and dreamed, Americans driven by the same aspirations but living in a society in many ways modern, and now released politically, could suddenly act. Where the French opposition had vainly agitated for partial reforms ... American leaders moved swiftly and with little social disruption to implement systematically the outermost possibilities of the whole range of radically libertarian ideas. In the process they ... infused into American political culture ... the major themes of eighteenth-century radical libertarianism brought to realization here. The first is the belief that power is evil, a necessity perhaps but an evil necessity; that it is infinitely corrupting; and that it must be controlled, limited, restricted in every way compatible with a minimum of civil order. Written constitutions; the separation of powers; bill of rights; limitations on executives, on legislatures, and courts; restrictions on the right to coerce and wage war—all express the profound distrust of power that lies at the ideological heart of the American Revolution and that has remained with us as a permanent legacy ever after.”

This piece emphasizes the distrust of power, as inherently evil, albeit necessary.

It's a construct of limiting, restraining government, by various means... so as to enable individuals to be free as much as possible to pursue their dreams.

Important themes and a pretty good starting point for how I see our system and why it's a general model for any society to emulate, at least in core principles, though clearly not all do. The first part is the basis of why as a 'conservative', I think it's important to preserve the institutions and practices that do restrain and limit the exercise of power. The second aspect is more the basis of why as a 'libertarian' with 'liberal' impulses on various social issues I see importance to that restraint of government power.

And as a nation, operating in a complex world, I think it's pretty darn clear that we benefit when more of the world embraces these sorts of principles as well...though, we also face a reality in which some nations, some societies, have not organized themselves to avoid the corruption, the evil concentration and use of power to selfish ends, individual freedoms be damned.

[Brooklyn]

It's entirely fair to make an argument that we should do more to combat poverty and homelessness...and disease and despair, etc, etc. The Founding Fathers didn't make those particular moral arguments, but no issue with you doing so, if you'd like.

But is it really a choice, a tradeoff required between those priorities and maintaining a world in which America and Americans do prosper?

Or is that the false paradigm we've been sold?

false paradigm


There is absolutely NOTHING in the teachings and practices of our Founders to support the delusional notion of overseas nation building. Previously, I have posted several links which showed how they approved of building up the infrastructure and developing the nation [see as an example Hamilton's REPORT ON MANUFACTURES]. Giving away our money overseas enriches the wealthy elites who profit from war. This does not benefit the rest of us in any way, shape, or form.

[Brooklyn]

yup, "some people"..."jeepers"...

What are you saying, that the Founders would approve of financing such foreign entanglements??

The "Founders" would have had great difficulty of even imagining the world in which we live, and from which America has so prospered. Pretty sure they were quite thankful for the assistance of the French, though.

Have to be able to imagine this interconnected world and why it's so important that it continue to evolve towards freedom and democracy, principles our Founders espoused as not being unique to America, but rather as inalienable rights...but some things are more simple: a bully is trying to subdue though any means, any atrocity, a country it claims to have the right to do so to.

We have the capacity to stop that bully and to maintain an international rule of law that enables this interconnected world to continue to evolve along the principles our Founders certainly did articulate.

Exactly. Okay, not exactly my sentiments, but close.

Read this?

“The Ideological Origins of the American Revolution” — B. Bailyn

“The modernization of American Politics and government during and after the Revolution took the form of a sudden, radical realization of the program that had first been fully set forth by the opposition intelligentsia ... in the reign of George the First. Where the English opposition, forcing its way against a complacent social and political order, had only striven and dreamed, Americans driven by the same aspirations but living in a society in many ways modern, and now released politically, could suddenly act. Where the French opposition had vainly agitated for partial reforms ... American leaders moved swiftly and with little social disruption to implement systematically the outermost possibilities of the whole range of radically libertarian ideas. In the process they ... infused into American political culture ... the major themes of eighteenth-century radical libertarianism brought to realization here. The first is the belief that power is evil, a necessity perhaps but an evil necessity; that it is infinitely corrupting; and that it must be controlled, limited, restricted in every way compatible with a minimum of civil order. Written constitutions; the separation of powers; bill of rights; limitations on executives, on legislatures, and courts; restrictions on the right to coerce and wage war—all express the profound distrust of power that lies at the ideological heart of the American Revolution and that has remained with us as a permanent legacy ever after.”

This piece emphasizes the distrust of power, as inherently evil, albeit necessary.

It's a construct of limiting, restraining government, by various means... so as to enable individuals to be free as much as possible to pursue their dreams.

Important themes and a pretty good starting point for how I see our system and why it's a general model for any society to emulate, at least in core principles, though clearly not all do. The first part is the basis of why as a 'conservative', I think it's important to preserve the institutions and practices that do restrain and limit the exercise of power. The second aspect is more the basis of why as a 'libertarian' with 'liberal' impulses on various social issues I see importance to that restraint of government power.

And as a nation, operating in a complex world, I think it's pretty darn clear that we benefit when more of the world embraces these sorts of principles as well...though, we also face a reality in which some nations, some societies, have not organized themselves to avoid the corruption, the evil concentration and use of power to selfish ends, individual freedoms be damned.

I have repeatedly called for the dissolution of the military industrial complex and the de-militarization of police forces. Any truly principled conservative and libertarian would do the same. Society would be so much better if we did so.

[PizzaSnake]

yup, "some people"..."jeepers"...

What are you saying, that the Founders would approve of financing such foreign entanglements??

The "Founders" would have had great difficulty of even imagining the world in which we live, and from which America has so prospered. Pretty sure they were quite thankful for the assistance of the French, though.

Have to be able to imagine this interconnected world and why it's so important that it continue to evolve towards freedom and democracy, principles our Founders espoused as not being unique to America, but rather as inalienable rights...but some things are more simple: a bully is trying to subdue though any means, any atrocity, a country it claims to have the right to do so to.

We have the capacity to stop that bully and to maintain an international rule of law that enables this interconnected world to continue to evolve along the principles our Founders certainly did articulate.

Exactly. Okay, not exactly my sentiments, but close.

Read this?

“The Ideological Origins of the American Revolution” — B. Bailyn

“The modernization of American Politics and government during and after the Revolution took the form of a sudden, radical realization of the program that had first been fully set forth by the opposition intelligentsia ... in the reign of George the First. Where the English opposition, forcing its way against a complacent social and political order, had only striven and dreamed, Americans driven by the same aspirations but living in a society in many ways modern, and now released politically, could suddenly act. Where the French opposition had vainly agitated for partial reforms ... American leaders moved swiftly and with little social disruption to implement systematically the outermost possibilities of the whole range of radically libertarian ideas. In the process they ... infused into American political culture ... the major themes of eighteenth-century radical libertarianism brought to realization here. The first is the belief that power is evil, a necessity perhaps but an evil necessity; that it is infinitely corrupting; and that it must be controlled, limited, restricted in every way compatible with a minimum of civil order. Written constitutions; the separation of powers; bill of rights; limitations on executives, on legislatures, and courts; restrictions on the right to coerce and wage war—all express the profound distrust of power that lies at the ideological heart of the American Revolution and that has remained with us as a permanent legacy ever after.”

This piece emphasizes the distrust of power, as inherently evil, albeit necessary.

It's a construct of limiting, restraining government, by various means... so as to enable individuals to be free as much as possible to pursue their dreams.

Important themes and a pretty good starting point for how I see our system and why it's a general model for any society to emulate, at least in core principles, though clearly not all do. The first part is the basis of why as a 'conservative', I think it's important to preserve the institutions and practices that do restrain and limit the exercise of power. The second aspect is more the basis of why as a 'libertarian' with 'liberal' impulses on various social issues I see importance to that restraint of government power.

And as a nation, operating in a complex world, I think it's pretty darn clear that we benefit when more of the world embraces these sorts of principles as well...though, we also face a reality in which some nations, some societies, have not organized themselves to avoid the corruption, the evil concentration and use of power to selfish ends, individual freedoms be damned.

I have repeatedly called for the dissolution of the military industrial complex and the de-militarization of police forces. Any truly principled conservative and libertarian would do the same. Society would be so much better if we did so.

Nice ideas, but need to be leavened with reality: humans scuk and always will. Certain actors such as Putin will need to be stymied or removed. Who is going to do that?

I abhor bullies. Putin is a bully, and, frankly, needs to be eliminated.

As usual, a trade-off between ideas and reality.

[Brooklyn]

Nice ideas, but need to be leavened with reality: humans scuk and always will. Certain actors such as Putin will need to be stymied or removed. Who is going to do that?

I abhor bullies. Putin is a bully, and, frankly, needs to be eliminated.

As usual, a trade-off between ideas and reality.

Why the selectivity? A few years ago people were saying Bush needs to be removed for starting two wars that killed over a million. Aren't you glad nobody invaded the USA to get it done? Saddam's forces crossed the Kurdish border and killed people. Some said he needed to be stopped. But when the Turkish government did the same and killed even more Kurds the world looked the other way. The politics of this crazy world are just too inconsistent in this regard.

[a fan]

Brookie, surely you of all people know that there's a whole mess of stuff that the Founding Father's didn't approve of that you're not all that happy about. They weren't exactly the high water mark for morality in America.

Giving away our money while thousands of people remain homeless or impoverished ain't exactly a mark of morality, either.

You were citing the Founding Fathers, my man. Not a peep about impoverished or homeless anywhere in their final "Founding" works, either.

I wouldn't look to them for guidance on this issue.

But yep, I'd rather we focus on America and its many problems, i agree with you there.

[PizzaSnake]

Brookie, surely you of all people know that there's a whole mess of stuff that the Founding Father's didn't approve of that you're not all that happy about. They weren't exactly the high water mark for morality in America.

Giving away our money while thousands of people remain homeless or impoverished ain't exactly a mark of morality, either.

You were citing the Founding Fathers, my man. Not a peep about impoverished or homeless anywhere in their final "Founding" works, either.

I wouldn't look to them for guidance on this issue.

But yep, I'd rather we focus on America and its many problems, i agree with you there.

Walk and chew gum?

And, we both know the ruling class doesn’t give a fcuk about this country, do we should take our victories where we can.

[a fan]

Walk and chew gum?

We haven't demonstrated the ability to do that in decades.

And, we both know the ruling class doesn’t give a fcuk about this country, do we should take our victories where we can.

No argument there.

[Brooklyn]

Brookie, surely you of all people know that there's a whole mess of stuff that the Founding Father's didn't approve of that you're not all that happy about. They weren't exactly the high water mark for morality in America.

Giving away our money while thousands of people remain homeless or impoverished ain't exactly a mark of morality, either.

You were citing the Founding Fathers, my man. Not a peep about impoverished or homeless anywhere in their final "Founding" works, either.

I wouldn't look to them for guidance on this issue.

But yep, I'd rather we focus on America and its many problems, i agree with you there.

I have previously posted links which debunk that popular myth a long time ago.

Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin believed government has an obligation to help the poor. Both thought welfare policies should support children, the disabled, widows and others who could not work. But any aid policy, they insisted, would include work-requirements for the able-bodied.

Rather than making welfare a generational inheritance, Franklin thought it should assist the poor in overcoming poverty as expediently as possible: “I am for doing good to the poor.…I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it.”

https://www.dailysignal.com/2015/05/30/ ... d-poverty/



https://intellectualtakeout.org/wp-cont ... 68x290.jpg


https://www.fh.org/blog/9-quotes-from-o ... -the-poor/


“Jefferson proposed that every individual who never owned property be granted fifty acres of public land, enough in most locales to support a dignified living for a family in terms customary to the day, well above mere subsistence.”

https://qz.com/1233436/why-the-founding ... be-farmers

[a fan]

I have previously posted links which debunk that popular myth a long time ago.

Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin believed government has an obligation to help the poor.

Irrelevant. Did any of these ideas make their way into the Constitution or Federal Law? Nope. So.......just some lovely thoughts with no bearing on America.

[old salt]

Have you notice who is controlling the Black Sea? It ain't Turkey. Can ships do as they wish, or not?

In what would would a lifelong Neo-con and card carrying Republic not cheer that? Or at least tip your cap at the man in charge of these choices? Or at least say "boy, this is going so much better than I expected".

I'm not a life long neo-con. I'm a paleo-con.
Turkey controls who sails in & out of the Black Sea & limits the number & size of warships.
I'll celebrate Ukraine's victory & survival if this war ends soon.
The weapons we're expending are more valuable than the weapons Russia is consuming.
We've learned the soft spots & weaknesses in Russia's military. We're just slaughtering more untrained conscripts.

We'd ALL celebrate if Putin was to withdraw his forces from all of Ukraine tomorrow.

Will you "celebrate victory" if Ukraine is forced to fight a long time to expel Russia?

What % of the USA's total annual defense spending was on assisting Ukraine this past year?

It depends on how long it drags on, what's the butcher's bill, & if the outcome promises stability or a resumption of warfare. This has been an extremely brutal war for the combatants & the Ukrainian population. You have no idea how long this will drag on, the cost in further loss of life, the destruction that will have to be rebuilt & the unanticipated events which may arise along the way. You may have noticed that no one is talking seriously about how this ends. It's ez to say that it will end when Russia is expelled from all territory, including Crimea & the Donbas, but no one talks about what that will require. We're not yet even considering giving the Ukrainians what it will take to accomplish that. You can hope for a collapse of the Russian military or regime change & withdrawal, but those are black swan events. Gen Milley hasn't modified his grim assessment. Meanwhile, the killing, carnage & suffering continues with no negotiations in sight to end or pause the fighting.

So...you won't celebrate Ukraine's victory.

Got it.

And refuse to answer a simple question; got it.

You answer a simple question. Give me your estimate of when this war ends.

The sooner it ends, the more likely I'll celebrate Ukraine's survival.

Here's what I prefer to celebrate --
Peace on Earth, Good will toward men.

[Brooklyn]

I have previously posted links which debunk that popular myth a long time ago.

Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin believed government has an obligation to help the poor.

Irrelevant. Did any of these ideas make their way into the Constitution or Federal Law? Nope. So.......just some lovely thoughts with no bearing on America.

Jefferson's words were written upon his signing of the Louisiana Purchase.

[PizzaSnake]

Brookie, surely you of all people know that there's a whole mess of stuff that the Founding Father's didn't approve of that you're not all that happy about. They weren't exactly the high water mark for morality in America.

Giving away our money while thousands of people remain homeless or impoverished ain't exactly a mark of morality, either.

You were citing the Founding Fathers, my man. Not a peep about impoverished or homeless anywhere in their final "Founding" works, either.

I wouldn't look to them for guidance on this issue.

But yep, I'd rather we focus on America and its many problems, i agree with you there.

I have previously posted links which debunk that popular myth a long time ago.

Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin believed government has an obligation to help the poor. Both thought welfare policies should support children, the disabled, widows and others who could not work. But any aid policy, they insisted, would include work-requirements for the able-bodied.

Rather than making welfare a generational inheritance, Franklin thought it should assist the poor in overcoming poverty as expediently as possible: “I am for doing good to the poor.…I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it.”

https://www.dailysignal.com/2015/05/30/ ... d-poverty/



https://intellectualtakeout.org/wp-cont ... 68x290.jpg


https://www.fh.org/blog/9-quotes-from-o ... -the-poor/


“Jefferson proposed that every individual who never owned property be granted fifty acres of public land, enough in most locales to support a dignified living for a family in terms customary to the day, well above mere subsistence.”

https://qz.com/1233436/why-the-founding ... be-farmers

Okay, so let's examine this evidence.

Who were these "every individuals"? Every individual, or just white men?

Public land? what, the land expropriated for the Native Americans?

So, we take all of the land, and then dole it out to everyone, 50 acres at a time? Oh, and how about the slaves (Sally Hemings and his children)? Do they get any?

You aren't a very good progressive.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Have you notice who is controlling the Black Sea? It ain't Turkey. Can ships do as they wish, or not?

In what would would a lifelong Neo-con and card carrying Republic not cheer that? Or at least tip your cap at the man in charge of these choices? Or at least say "boy, this is going so much better than I expected".

I'm not a life long neo-con. I'm a paleo-con.
Turkey controls who sails in & out of the Black Sea & limits the number & size of warships.
I'll celebrate Ukraine's victory & survival if this war ends soon.
The weapons we're expending are more valuable than the weapons Russia is consuming.
We've learned the soft spots & weaknesses in Russia's military. We're just slaughtering more untrained conscripts.

We'd ALL celebrate if Putin was to withdraw his forces from all of Ukraine tomorrow.

Will you "celebrate victory" if Ukraine is forced to fight a long time to expel Russia?

What % of the USA's total annual defense spending was on assisting Ukraine this past year?

It depends on how long it drags on, what's the butcher's bill, & if the outcome promises stability or a resumption of warfare. This has been an extremely brutal war for the combatants & the Ukrainian population. You have no idea how long this will drag on, the cost in further loss of life, the destruction that will have to be rebuilt & the unanticipated events which may arise along the way. You may have noticed that no one is talking seriously about how this ends. It's ez to say that it will end when Russia is expelled from all territory, including Crimea & the Donbas, but no one talks about what that will require. We're not yet even considering giving the Ukrainians what it will take to accomplish that. You can hope for a collapse of the Russian military or regime change & withdrawal, but those are black swan events. Gen Milley hasn't modified his grim assessment. Meanwhile, the killing, carnage & suffering continues with no negotiations in sight to end or pause the fighting.

So...you won't celebrate Ukraine's victory.

Got it.

And refuse to answer a simple question; got it.

You answer a simple question. Give me your estimate of when this war ends.

The sooner it ends, the more likely I'll celebrate Ukraine's survival.

Here's what I prefer to celebrate --
Peace on Earth, Good will toward men.

You mean you will celebrate Ukraine’s VICTORY.

[Brooklyn]

Okay, so let's examine this evidence.

Who were these "every individuals"? Every individual, or just white men?

Public land? what, the land expropriated for the Native Americans?

So, we take all of the land, and then dole it out to everyone, 50 acres at a time? Oh, and how about the slaves (Sally Hemings and his children)? Do they get any?

You aren't a very good progressive.

First of all, Pal, do yourself a favor and desist with the labeling nonsense.
Individuals? When Congress authorized post Revolutionary war land grants the law did not distinguished between racial compositions in the veterans: https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/Un ... al_Records
If you have any proof to the contrary, feel free to provide it.
When Jefferson signed off on the Louisiana Purchase it was with the French government. Not with the tribes so that he did not steal the land from them.
I think we've gone over the evils of slavery on this forum in the past. It truly was an evil practice, one "justified" under Judeo-Christian law though not practiced in the USA as it was in ancient Israel. Of course, the Russian empire had its own evil system in serfdom.

[MDlaxfan76]

Have you notice who is controlling the Black Sea? It ain't Turkey. Can ships do as they wish, or not?

In what would would a lifelong Neo-con and card carrying Republic not cheer that? Or at least tip your cap at the man in charge of these choices? Or at least say "boy, this is going so much better than I expected".

I'm not a life long neo-con. I'm a paleo-con.
Turkey controls who sails in & out of the Black Sea & limits the number & size of warships.
I'll celebrate Ukraine's victory & survival if this war ends soon.
The weapons we're expending are more valuable than the weapons Russia is consuming.
We've learned the soft spots & weaknesses in Russia's military. We're just slaughtering more untrained conscripts.

We'd ALL celebrate if Putin was to withdraw his forces from all of Ukraine tomorrow.

Will you "celebrate victory" if Ukraine is forced to fight a long time to expel Russia?

What % of the USA's total annual defense spending was on assisting Ukraine this past year?

It depends on how long it drags on, what's the butcher's bill, & if the outcome promises stability or a resumption of warfare. This has been an extremely brutal war for the combatants & the Ukrainian population. You have no idea how long this will drag on, the cost in further loss of life, the destruction that will have to be rebuilt & the unanticipated events which may arise along the way. You may have noticed that no one is talking seriously about how this ends. It's ez to say that it will end when Russia is expelled from all territory, including Crimea & the Donbas, but no one talks about what that will require. We're not yet even considering giving the Ukrainians what it will take to accomplish that. You can hope for a collapse of the Russian military or regime change & withdrawal, but those are black swan events. Gen Milley hasn't modified his grim assessment. Meanwhile, the killing, carnage & suffering continues with no negotiations in sight to end or pause the fighting.

So...you won't celebrate Ukraine's victory.

Got it.

And refuse to answer a simple question; got it.

You answer a simple question. Give me your estimate of when this war ends.

The sooner it ends, the more likely I'll celebrate Ukraine's survival.

Here's what I prefer to celebrate --
Peace on Earth, Good will toward men. ALL.

I'm 100% with you on the green.

I'm not sure the war will actually "end" for the next 5 years. Obviously hope it will much, much sooner.

But I'll celebrate Ukraine's victory over Putin's regime, no matter how much harder, how much longer, they they have to fight.

How come you won't answer the question above in large red?

Meanwhile, I sincerely hope you and yours have a wonderful holiday season.

[MDlaxfan76]

I have previously posted links which debunk that popular myth a long time ago.

Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin believed government has an obligation to help the poor.

Irrelevant. Did any of these ideas make their way into the Constitution or Federal Law? Nope. So.......just some lovely thoughts with no bearing on America.

Not to mention, these are but two of the Founders...apparently not a consensus.

[MDlaxfan76]

Have you notice who is controlling the Black Sea? It ain't Turkey. Can ships do as they wish, or not?

In what would would a lifelong Neo-con and card carrying Republic not cheer that? Or at least tip your cap at the man in charge of these choices? Or at least say "boy, this is going so much better than I expected".

I'm not a life long neo-con. I'm a paleo-con.
Turkey controls who sails in & out of the Black Sea & limits the number & size of warships.
I'll celebrate Ukraine's victory & survival if this war ends soon.
The weapons we're expending are more valuable than the weapons Russia is consuming.
We've learned the soft spots & weaknesses in Russia's military. We're just slaughtering more untrained conscripts.

We'd ALL celebrate if Putin was to withdraw his forces from all of Ukraine tomorrow.

Will you "celebrate victory" if Ukraine is forced to fight a long time to expel Russia?

What % of the USA's total annual defense spending was on assisting Ukraine this past year?

It depends on how long it drags on, what's the butcher's bill, & if the outcome promises stability or a resumption of warfare. This has been an extremely brutal war for the combatants & the Ukrainian population. You have no idea how long this will drag on, the cost in further loss of life, the destruction that will have to be rebuilt & the unanticipated events which may arise along the way. You may have noticed that no one is talking seriously about how this ends. It's ez to say that it will end when Russia is expelled from all territory, including Crimea & the Donbas, but no one talks about what that will require. We're not yet even considering giving the Ukrainians what it will take to accomplish that. You can hope for a collapse of the Russian military or regime change & withdrawal, but those are black swan events. Gen Milley hasn't modified his grim assessment. Meanwhile, the killing, carnage & suffering continues with no negotiations in sight to end or pause the fighting.

So...you won't celebrate Ukraine's victory.

Got it.

And refuse to answer a simple question; got it.

You answer a simple question. Give me your estimate of when this war ends.

The sooner it ends, the more likely I'll celebrate Ukraine's survival.

Here's what I prefer to celebrate --
Peace on Earth, Good will toward men.

You mean you will celebrate Ukraine’s VICTORY.

nope, he meant merely survival.