All Things Russia & Ukraine

[Brooklyn]

Which people took a "plebiscite"? Russians living in Ukraine?
Did they vote for annexation by Russia?
Was that the next step in the plan?

Again, I'm fine with the argument that the Catalonians want to make that they would like autonomous rule...but this is about an invasion, which was taking place quietly long before the "plebiscite", and the loss of sovereignty.

As our Founders said, when the government ceases to meet the needs of its people, they have the right to dissolve that government. Well over 90% voted for freedom from Kiev in 2014. The vast majority of Donbas voted to join Russia so that the war could have been averted by Kiev acceding to the people's will (links for proof of both matters previously provided). Those fascist pieces of mierda in Madrid should do the same with Catalonia.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Have you notice who is controlling the Black Sea? It ain't Turkey. Can ships do as they wish, or not?

In what would would a lifelong Neo-con and card carrying Republic not cheer that? Or at least tip your cap at the man in charge of these choices? Or at least say "boy, this is going so much better than I expected".

I'm not a life long neo-con. I'm a paleo-con.
Turkey controls who sails in & out of the Black Sea & limits the number & size of warships.
I'll celebrate Ukraine's victory & survival if this war ends soon.
The weapons we're expending are more valuable than the weapons Russia is consuming.
We've learned the soft spots & weaknesses in Russia's military. We're just slaughtering more untrained conscripts.

We'd ALL celebrate if Putin was to withdraw his forces from all of Ukraine tomorrow.

Will you "celebrate victory" if Ukraine is forced to fight a long time to expel Russia?

What % of the USA's total annual defense spending was on assisting Ukraine this past year?

It depends on how long it drags on, what's the butcher's bill, & if the outcome promises stability or a resumption of warfare. This has been an extremely brutal war for the combatants & the Ukrainian population. You have no idea how long this will drag on, the cost in further loss of life, the destruction that will have to be rebuilt & the unanticipated events which may arise along the way. You may have noticed that no one is talking seriously about how this ends. It's ez to say that it will end when Russia is expelled from all territory, including Crimea & the Donbas, but no one talks about what that will require. We're not yet even considering giving the Ukrainians what it will take to accomplish that. You can hope for a collapse of the Russian military or regime change & withdrawal, but those are black swan events. Gen Milley hasn't modified his grim assessment. Meanwhile, the killing, carnage & suffering continues with no negotiations in sight to end or pause the fighting.

give ‘em hell Joe!!

https://www.usaspending.gov/agency/depa ... se?fy=2022

We be stretchin’ dem dollars!! We making the ends see each other!!!

[Typical Lax Dad]

[MDlaxfan76]

Have you notice who is controlling the Black Sea? It ain't Turkey. Can ships do as they wish, or not?

In what would would a lifelong Neo-con and card carrying Republic not cheer that? Or at least tip your cap at the man in charge of these choices? Or at least say "boy, this is going so much better than I expected".

I'm not a life long neo-con. I'm a paleo-con.
Turkey controls who sails in & out of the Black Sea & limits the number & size of warships.
I'll celebrate Ukraine's victory & survival if this war ends soon.
The weapons we're expending are more valuable than the weapons Russia is consuming.
We've learned the soft spots & weaknesses in Russia's military. We're just slaughtering more untrained conscripts.

We'd ALL celebrate if Putin was to withdraw his forces from all of Ukraine tomorrow.

Will you "celebrate victory" if Ukraine is forced to fight a long time to expel Russia?

What % of the USA's total annual defense spending was on assisting Ukraine this past year?

It depends on how long it drags on, what's the butcher's bill, & if the outcome promises stability or a resumption of warfare. This has been an extremely brutal war for the combatants & the Ukrainian population. You have no idea how long this will drag on, the cost in further loss of life, the destruction that will have to be rebuilt & the unanticipated events which may arise along the way. You may have noticed that no one is talking seriously about how this ends. It's ez to say that it will end when Russia is expelled from all territory, including Crimea & the Donbas, but no one talks about what that will require. We're not yet even considering giving the Ukrainians what it will take to accomplish that. You can hope for a collapse of the Russian military or regime change & withdrawal, but those are black swan events. Gen Milley hasn't modified his grim assessment. Meanwhile, the killing, carnage & suffering continues with no negotiations in sight to end or pause the fighting.

So...you won't celebrate Ukraine's victory.

Got it.

And refuse to answer a simple question; got it.

[MDlaxfan76]

Which people took a "plebiscite"? Russians living in Ukraine?
Did they vote for annexation by Russia?
Was that the next step in the plan?

Again, I'm fine with the argument that the Catalonians want to make that they would like autonomous rule...but this is about an invasion, which was taking place quietly long before the "plebiscite", and the loss of sovereignty.

As our Founders said, when the government ceases to meet the needs of its people, they have the right to dissolve that government. Well over 90% voted for freedom from Kiev in 2014. The vast majority of Donbas voted to join Russia so that the war could have been averted by Kiev acceding to the people's will (links for proof of both matters previously provided). Those fascist pieces of mierda in Madrid should do the same with Catalonia.

Sorry, Brooklyn, it's a difficult argument to say that the Catalonians were not having their needs met by the government of Spain, in which they had full representation. Again, it's like California saying their "needs" aren't being met by the USA. Wealthiest part of Spain wants to secede from Spain.

Ukraine's national sovereignty was re-set in the '90's. The vote in 2014 established more freedom from Russian influence by a vast majority...a small portion of the country's population were Russians who had moved into Donbas and they wanted to take a large portion of the country for themselves, funded by Russia which obviously had the intent to annex that part for itself; as they'd just done in Crimea...sorry, Harry, nations don't work that way.

[MDlaxfan76]

Have you notice who is controlling the Black Sea? It ain't Turkey. Can ships do as they wish, or not?

In what would would a lifelong Neo-con and card carrying Republic not cheer that? Or at least tip your cap at the man in charge of these choices? Or at least say "boy, this is going so much better than I expected".

I'm not a life long neo-con. I'm a paleo-con.
Turkey controls who sails in & out of the Black Sea & limits the number & size of warships.
I'll celebrate Ukraine's victory & survival if this war ends soon.
The weapons we're expending are more valuable than the weapons Russia is consuming.
We've learned the soft spots & weaknesses in Russia's military. We're just slaughtering more untrained conscripts.

We'd ALL celebrate if Putin was to withdraw his forces from all of Ukraine tomorrow.

Will you "celebrate victory" if Ukraine is forced to fight a long time to expel Russia?

What % of the USA's total annual defense spending was on assisting Ukraine this past year?

It depends on how long it drags on, what's the butcher's bill, & if the outcome promises stability or a resumption of warfare. This has been an extremely brutal war for the combatants & the Ukrainian population. You have no idea how long this will drag on, the cost in further loss of life, the destruction that will have to be rebuilt & the unanticipated events which may arise along the way. You may have noticed that no one is talking seriously about how this ends. It's ez to say that it will end when Russia is expelled from all territory, including Crimea & the Donbas, but no one talks about what that will require. We're not yet even considering giving the Ukrainians what it will take to accomplish that. You can hope for a collapse of the Russian military or regime change & withdrawal, but those are black swan events. Gen Milley hasn't modified his grim assessment. Meanwhile, the killing, carnage & suffering continues with no negotiations in sight to end or pause the fighting.

give ‘em hell Joe!!

https://www.usaspending.gov/agency/depa ... se?fy=2022

We be stretchin’ dem dollars!! We making the ends see each other!!!

Right. About 2% of annual spending going to help Ukraine defeat a massively superior in #'s war criminal, terrorist aggressor.
With most of those $ spent here in the US, employing US citizens.

Sending a very clear message to other potentially would-be aggressor nations (eg China) that America's capabilities are not to be taken lightly.

Don't violate international law.

Has there ever been a higher ROI spend for our defense budget?
WWII?
I dunno, but this certainly ranks up there...

[Typical Lax Dad]

Have you notice who is controlling the Black Sea? It ain't Turkey. Can ships do as they wish, or not?

In what would would a lifelong Neo-con and card carrying Republic not cheer that? Or at least tip your cap at the man in charge of these choices? Or at least say "boy, this is going so much better than I expected".

I'm not a life long neo-con. I'm a paleo-con.
Turkey controls who sails in & out of the Black Sea & limits the number & size of warships.
I'll celebrate Ukraine's victory & survival if this war ends soon.
The weapons we're expending are more valuable than the weapons Russia is consuming.
We've learned the soft spots & weaknesses in Russia's military. We're just slaughtering more untrained conscripts.

We'd ALL celebrate if Putin was to withdraw his forces from all of Ukraine tomorrow.

Will you "celebrate victory" if Ukraine is forced to fight a long time to expel Russia?

What % of the USA's total annual defense spending was on assisting Ukraine this past year?

It depends on how long it drags on, what's the butcher's bill, & if the outcome promises stability or a resumption of warfare. This has been an extremely brutal war for the combatants & the Ukrainian population. You have no idea how long this will drag on, the cost in further loss of life, the destruction that will have to be rebuilt & the unanticipated events which may arise along the way. You may have noticed that no one is talking seriously about how this ends. It's ez to say that it will end when Russia is expelled from all territory, including Crimea & the Donbas, but no one talks about what that will require. We're not yet even considering giving the Ukrainians what it will take to accomplish that. You can hope for a collapse of the Russian military or regime change & withdrawal, but those are black swan events. Gen Milley hasn't modified his grim assessment. Meanwhile, the killing, carnage & suffering continues with no negotiations in sight to end or pause the fighting.

So...you won't celebrate Ukraine's victory.

Got it.

And refuse to answer a simple question; got it.

He will pout and say it’s the USA’s fault that Russia lost….

[PizzaSnake]

Which people took a "plebiscite"? Russians living in Ukraine?
Did they vote for annexation by Russia?
Was that the next step in the plan?

Again, I'm fine with the argument that the Catalonians want to make that they would like autonomous rule...but this is about an invasion, which was taking place quietly long before the "plebiscite", and the loss of sovereignty.

As our Founders said, when the government ceases to meet the needs of its people, they have the right to dissolve that government. Well over 90% voted for freedom from Kiev in 2014. The vast majority of Donbas voted to join Russia so that the war could have been averted by Kiev acceding to the people's will (links for proof of both matters previously provided). Those fascist pieces of mierda in Madrid should do the same with Catalonia.

Speaking of American exceptionalism, what does the speech of the 18th century, colonial, British "Founding Fathers" have to do with 21st century Ukrainian sovereignty? And if one were to look to them for inspiration, wouldn't freedom from a larger hegemonic empire be more apropos?

[Brooklyn]

Sorry, Brooklyn, it's a difficult argument to say that the Catalonians were not having their needs met by the government of Spain, in which they had full representation. Again, it's like California saying their "needs" aren't being met by the USA. Wealthiest part of Spain wants to secede from Spain.

Ukraine's national sovereignty was re-set in the '90's. The vote in 2014 established more freedom from Russian influence by a vast majority...a small portion of the country's population were Russians who had moved into Donbas and they wanted to take a large portion of the country for themselves, funded by Russia which obviously had the intent to annex that part for itself; as they'd just done in Crimea...sorry, Harry, nations don't work that way.

Full representation? Yeah, sort of like what Norwegians had under Quisling.

Russians moved into Donbas? True, just like whites moved into California in 1849, quickly became a large portion of the population and voted to get into the US Union only a few months later. So, yes, they do work that way ... uh, Harry.

[Brooklyn]

Speaking of American exceptionalism, what does the speech of the 18th century, colonial, British "Founding Fathers" have to do with 21st century Ukrainian sovereignty? And if one were to look to them for inspiration, wouldn't freedom from a larger hegemonic empire be more apropos?

Something to do with the will of the people, I'm sure.

One thing's for sure, our Founding Fathers would never have approved of giving billions to an overseas government when the money is needed at home.

[PizzaSnake]

Speaking of American exceptionalism, what does the speech of the 18th century, colonial, British "Founding Fathers" have to do with 21st century Ukrainian sovereignty? And if one were to look to them for inspiration, wouldn't freedom from a larger hegemonic empire be more apropos?

Something to do with the will of the people, I'm sure.

One thing's for sure, our Founding Fathers would never have approved of giving billions to an overseas government when the money is needed at home.

How the fcuk can you be sure of that? You are certainly doctrinaire for a progressive, "free-thinker".

[a fan]

Speaking of American exceptionalism, what does the speech of the 18th century, colonial, British "Founding Fathers" have to do with 21st century Ukrainian sovereignty? And if one were to look to them for inspiration, wouldn't freedom from a larger hegemonic empire be more apropos?

Something to do with the will of the people, I'm sure.

One thing's for sure, our Founding Fathers would never have approved of giving billions to an overseas government when the money is needed at home.

Brookie, surely you of all people know that there's a whole mess of stuff that the Founding Father's didn't approve of that you're not all that happy about. They weren't exactly the high water mark for morality in America.

[MDlaxfan76]

Sorry, Brooklyn, it's a difficult argument to say that the Catalonians were not having their needs met by the government of Spain, in which they had full representation. Again, it's like California saying their "needs" aren't being met by the USA. Wealthiest part of Spain wants to secede from Spain.

Ukraine's national sovereignty was re-set in the '90's. The vote in 2014 established more freedom from Russian influence by a vast majority...a small portion of the country's population were Russians who had moved into Donbas and they wanted to take a large portion of the country for themselves, funded by Russia which obviously had the intent to annex that part for itself; as they'd just done in Crimea...sorry, Harry, nations don't work that way.

Full representation? Yeah, sort of like what Norwegians had under Quisling.

Russians moved into Donbas? True, just like whites moved into California in 1849, quickly became a large portion of the population and voted to get into the US Union only a few months later. So, yes, they do work that way ... uh, Harry.

Nope, nations defend themselves from such incursion, as Ukraine is doing. Could they lose? Sure.

Most observers thought the Russian bear would roll over them.

But Donbas ain't a nation, nor is Crimea. They are part of sovereign Ukraine.

[MDlaxfan76]

Have you notice who is controlling the Black Sea? It ain't Turkey. Can ships do as they wish, or not?

In what would would a lifelong Neo-con and card carrying Republic not cheer that? Or at least tip your cap at the man in charge of these choices? Or at least say "boy, this is going so much better than I expected".

I'm not a life long neo-con. I'm a paleo-con.
Turkey controls who sails in & out of the Black Sea & limits the number & size of warships.
I'll celebrate Ukraine's victory & survival if this war ends soon.
The weapons we're expending are more valuable than the weapons Russia is consuming.
We've learned the soft spots & weaknesses in Russia's military. We're just slaughtering more untrained conscripts.

We'd ALL celebrate if Putin was to withdraw his forces from all of Ukraine tomorrow.

Will you "celebrate victory" if Ukraine is forced to fight a long time to expel Russia?

What % of the USA's total annual defense spending was on assisting Ukraine this past year?

It depends on how long it drags on, what's the butcher's bill, & if the outcome promises stability or a resumption of warfare. This has been an extremely brutal war for the combatants & the Ukrainian population. You have no idea how long this will drag on, the cost in further loss of life, the destruction that will have to be rebuilt & the unanticipated events which may arise along the way. You may have noticed that no one is talking seriously about how this ends. It's ez to say that it will end when Russia is expelled from all territory, including Crimea & the Donbas, but no one talks about what that will require. We're not yet even considering giving the Ukrainians what it will take to accomplish that. You can hope for a collapse of the Russian military or regime change & withdrawal, but those are black swan events. Gen Milley hasn't modified his grim assessment. Meanwhile, the killing, carnage & suffering continues with no negotiations in sight to end or pause the fighting.

So...you won't celebrate Ukraine's victory.

Got it.

And refuse to answer a simple question; got it.

He will pout and say it’s the USA’s fault that Russia lost….

I suspect it will be more of "Republicans deserve the credit...without them, Ukraine would have lost"...just like he wants to give Trump credit for Javelins...but never for Dems...

On the other hand, he'll then warn about corruption in Ukraine and how we shouldn't be involved in any sort of 'Marshall Plan' with them, let the Euroburghers do it alone...and no NATO...

[Kismet]

For historical perspective - Putin invaded Georgia in 2008 when Bush 43 was President. They occupied Georgia territories of South Ossetia and Abkhazia claiming they were liberating Russian-speaking people oppressed by Georgian government - They still occupy portions of these territories currently.

In 2014, they pulled the same thing occupying Crimea which was part of Ukraine. Concurrently, they pulled the same sort of operation in the Donbas.

There is an ongoing looming confrontation with Moldova over Transnistria, a largely Russian-speaking territory.

See a pattern yet? That Putin pulled his latest land grab because Uncle Joe pulled us out of Afghanistan is just another OS political fantasy. If he cannot recognize the pattern at this point, there is no point in discussing much of anything here. They have been land grabbing neighbors for just about 15 years now. And some want to just validate the current grab by suggesting a diplomacy to lock inn more gains. IMHO just a signal for him to do it again in the future.

The idea we are going to pin all this bad behavior on a series of Democratic administrations is laughable while giving the former DOPUS w(who had a secretive relationship with Putin) a total pass is not only not credible but laughable.

On Christmas Eve, Russian forces shelled Kherson with incendiary munitions (banned by Geneva Conventions BTW) killing multiple civilians

[Brooklyn]

Speaking of American exceptionalism, what does the speech of the 18th century, colonial, British "Founding Fathers" have to do with 21st century Ukrainian sovereignty? And if one were to look to them for inspiration, wouldn't freedom from a larger hegemonic empire be more apropos?

Something to do with the will of the people, I'm sure.

One thing's for sure, our Founding Fathers would never have approved of giving billions to an overseas government when the money is needed at home.

How the fcuk can you be sure of that? You are certainly doctrinaire for a progressive, "free-thinker".

LOL. Remember the old story about foreign entanglements? Some people here --- jeepers.

[MDlaxfan76]

yup, "some people"..."jeepers"...

[Brooklyn]

Brookie, surely you of all people know that there's a whole mess of stuff that the Founding Father's didn't approve of that you're not all that happy about. They weren't exactly the high water mark for morality in America.

Giving away our money while thousands of people remain homeless or impoverished ain't exactly a mark of morality, either.

[Brooklyn]

yup, "some people"..."jeepers"...

What are you saying, that the Founders would approve of financing such foreign entanglements??

[MDlaxfan76]

yup, "some people"..."jeepers"...

What are you saying, that the Founders would approve of financing such foreign entanglements??

The "Founders" would have had great difficulty of even imagining the world in which we live, and from which America has so prospered. Pretty sure they were quite thankful for the assistance of the French, though.

Have to be able to imagine this interconnected world and why it's so important that it continue to evolve towards freedom and democracy, principles our Founders espoused as not being unique to America, but rather as inalienable rights...but some things are more simple: a bully is trying to subdue though any means, any atrocity, a country it claims to have the right to do so to.

We have the capacity to stop that bully and to maintain an international rule of law that enables this interconnected world to continue to evolve along the principles our Founders certainly did articulate.