All Things Russia & Ukraine

[jhu72]

If Trump was still President, Putin would not have invaded.

Such certainty!

Republicans are awesome with super powers, don't you get it?

Dems are weak and......wait.......oh, never mind that. I just heard Putin's army is in shambles because he decided to take Old Salt's sage advice, and test Biden.

Whoops.

... one thing is for certain, Biden has been totally underestimated on all fronts.

[old salt]

If Trump was still President, Putin would not have invaded.

Why? Republican tough guy nonsense. But by all means, tell us why?

You say you're not a Trump supporter, yet here you are, riding Trumpy hard, telling us how tough his Little R is, and acting like Putin was scared of tough-guy Trump.

Meanwhile, Biden has laid bare allllllll you and National Review and VDH's pumping up of Putin as a genius. That he was playing chess, and Obama was playing checkers. Biden has emasculated you and your Republican buddies, showing you not only are Dem Presidents just fine with waging war (I love that your'e
Putin annexed Crimea & recognized the separatist enclaves in 2014, when Obama was President (& VP Biden had the Ukraine portfolio)
Putin invaded Ukraine in 2022, after Biden's Afghan pullout debacle. Why did Putin not move on Ukraine while Trump was President, arming & training the Ukrainian military, to good effect. Coincidence ?

Biden should have let our EU allies take the lead, offering US support vis NATO. If we followed their lead there'd be a cease fire by now.

If we had done that, as you yourself claimed, Putin would have control of the whole country.
No he wouldn't. The Ukrainians repelled the initial invasion with the weapons & training Trump had been providing since 2017. The most important weapons initially provided by NATO were the Soviet legacy stuff that the Ukrainians could use immediately. EU/NATO members had howitzers & HIMARS equivalents (& Mig-29', tanks & APCs) they could have contributed, but they held back, knowing the US would provide them.

You keep playing this stupid, petty, childish game where your claiming your path would lead to a perfect outcome....where Putin would drop his weapons and run away if we just gave him the chance. Why? R's and D's. It's just dumb. Stop it at some point, you know? Naaah. F that. Keep it up. We're dazzled by your evaluations here.
No, Putin's at a stalemate. He would quit fighting & declare victory if he could keep the territory he now holds.

We can't sustain this, over the long haul, without their increased participation & contributions. It's a EUropean war

We've got 80,000 troops in Japan and S Korea. Sucking up about $10 billion a year.....since the Korean freaking war. Then there's the base you think we should STILL have in Afghanistan, and if you had your way, we'd still be Iraq because Obama would never have left.
We have mutual defense treaties with those nations going back to our wars & occupation there.
A residual force of 2500 in Afghanistan would go unnoticed, as does our residual force in Kuwait & Kuridish Iraq/Syria.

But sure "we can't sustain" a war that's not even 12 months old. Ah, Old Salt. Who do you think you're kidding?
We are consuming our war stocks of munitions which will take years to replenish. Each Patriot missile costs $4 million a shot. They'll be used to down cheap Iranian drones.

You are still full of sh!t on this. I've told you repeatedly that in '91, I was with Jim Webb & Ron Smith regarding putting US forces ashore in the Persian Gulf. Guld War-I & all our other wars flowed from that, including our 9-11 war in Afghanistan. Once we were committed, I was committed to win. *

Committed to win WHAT? What were you hoping you'd win? Yep, you said that about the initial invasion. But they part you're desperate to ignore and keep playing your silly game is that you said we HAD to go back in. No choice. Just like all the other oil adventures you said we HAD to do. You're on the hook for this. You don't get to pretend like you didn't just tell me this------but that you MOCKED ME and told me I was a "revisionist" if I told you that we ALWAYS have choices.

And lo and behold, all these years later, you're trying to lecture me that we have choices in Ukraine.
We have no strategic interests in Ukraine. There won't be gas lines in the US if Ukraine loses 15-20% of their (formerly Russian) territory. Gas & ag prices will go down. The global economy & food crisis will improve.

Yep. You're right. Can you pass this information along to the Old Salt of the past ten years who mocked me for telling him this very fact? I'd appreciate it.

blah, blah, blah, see above *

Yep. There it is again. We had no choice but to bankroll Saddam, and get cheap oil.

Charlie Wilson's war was in Afghanistan in the '80's. It had nothing to do with ME oil. Clinton had numerous opportunities to take out OBL after the USS Cole & embassy bombings, well before 9-11.

So as usual, you put it at the feet of a Democrat, instead of the guy who created OBL in the first place.....Reagan.
Reagan didn't create OBL. Clinton passed up the chance to take him out before 9-11.

Please, keep Blah Blah Blahing. Tell us more about money. Tell us more about how you never cared about all the civilian casualties that you say we HAD to kill. Because oil.

It's all about Biden and his little D, and the fact that he took your weenie away, and destroyed your Super-Foe Putin in a few short months, with Zero American casualties. If Trump was doing this? You wouldn't shut up about how awesome this war was going.
It was the arms & training provided under Trump which enabled the Ukrainians to repel the invasion, along with Soviet legacy stuff provided by E NATO allies.

Your'e not fooling anyone, besides yourself. But by all means, keep it up! I could use more of your hypocritical fake complaints.
You don't need that. Comparative GDP is all that matters.

[MDlaxfan76]

... and the Basque straddling the boarder with France in the west.

... it appears neither the Catalans nor the Spanish are totally happy with that arrangement given 500-600 years of head butting. It is clear the Ukrainians aren't willing to accept that arrangement either.

MD's equation of Catalonia's quest for freedom with the Southern states rebellion is an absurdity. The Southern states signed the Constitution to become part of the USA --- one nation indivisible. Catalonia was invaded in the mid 1600s [there had been intermittent conflicts for centuries before that], lost the war, and was forced to accede to Madrid's demands. Totally different from the US experience. A contract has no validity if it is signed with a gun pointed at one's head. If Ukrainians have a right to freedom then so do Catalonians who never asked to be dictated to by the Falangists.

Interesting; I seriously don't know the exact answer to this...how long has Catalonia been part of Spain (are you saying mid-1600's?).
How long has there been a Spanish Constitution? (I'm guessing much shorter).

Are you saying that Catalonia was never part of, subject to, the Spanish Constitution?
What have the international bodies recognized as Spain's sovereign borders?
How long has that been the case, bilaterally, with their neighbors?

Again, I think there's an important case to be made that people should be able to self-determine their rule, especially as democratically represented, but this sounds more like California deciding that they should separate from the US because they don't like paying more to the federal government than they get proportionately in return...

I disagree with Salty and his contention that Donbas etc had a right to separate themselves from the rest of Ukraine, especially given how involved Russia was in trying to make that happen. Same for Crimea.

[a fan]

Putin annexed Crimea & recognized the separatist enclaves in 2014, when Obama was President (& VP Biden had the Ukraine portfolio)
Putin invaded Ukraine in 2022, after Biden's Afghan pullout debacle. Why did Putin not move on Ukraine while Trump was President, arming & training the Ukrainian military, to good effect.

I'm not going to play this game of yours again. YOU TELL ME why you think Putin didn't invade until 2022.

Go ahead. Spell it out.

No he wouldn't.

So after claiming you didn't know what Putin would do....you're back to telling that you know exactly what Putin would do.

Neat. Any other changes you'd like to make.

No, Putin's at a stalemate. He would quit fighting & declare victory if he could keep the territory he now holds.

He can't do that, and you know it. This is the Republican "make stuff up to tell us that Biden's little D is doing it wrong" nonsense you keep pulling.

Did you notice the carbomb? He's not keeping this land, with or without our help. Ukrainians told him to F off. Stop pretending you're too stupid to know this, all so you can hit Biden.

We have mutual defense treaties with those nations going back to our wars & occupation there.
A residual force of 2500 in Afghanistan would go unnoticed, as does our residual force in Kuwait & Kuridish Iraq/Syria.

So once again, money for THAT is not only bottomless....it's endless according to you.

And yet we can't afford a few months in Ukraine. Gee, why am I making fun of you and your all-thumbs calculator use?

We are consuming our war stocks of munitions which will take years to replenish. Each Patriot missile costs $4 million a shot. They'll be used to down cheap Iranian drones.

That's what they're for, my man. Don't remember you counting tanks or bullets in Afghanistan. Or all those wars we HAD to fight. "This is different, and Biden is doing it wrong".

We have no strategic interests in Ukraine.

Black sea. I LOVE that you're still using your cro-magnon math where you insist that we don't have any energy we can access here in the 80's and "therefore" warmongering and bankrolling Saddam was "in our strategic interests".

But we don't need access to the black sea, or anything in that grows or is mined in Ukraine. It's soooper fine if Russia has all that.

There won't be gas lines in the US if Ukraine loses 15-20% of their (formerly Russian) territory. Gas & ag prices will go down. The global economy & food crisis will improve.

So there ARE strategic interests in this area, how about that? Can you point me to which Old Salt I need to speak with? By my count there are now four or five of you, all telling me different stories all because not one of them can simply shut up, admit that he was wrong, and move on.

Yep. You're right. Can you pass this information along to the Old Salt of the past ten years who mocked me for telling him this very fact? I'd appreciate it.

Reagan didn't create OBL

Riiiiight. OBL attacked us because of Clinton....not because Reagan thought it was brilliant to play games in the ME, leading to fifty years of problems, and

It was the arms & training provided under Trump which enabled the Ukrainians to repel the invasion, along with Soviet legacy stuff provided by E NATO allies.

You're first honest statement in MONTHS.

Translation: For Old Salt? Republicans good, Dems bad. It's like talking to a toddler who was sent to a military academy.

ou don't need that. Comparative GDP is all that matters.

Scoreboard, my man. You're just not enough of a gentleman to take a knee, and concede defeat. I was right, and you were wrong. Putin is out of money, and I told you that ten years ago. And now here you are, trying to type your way out of just being a man, admitting I was correct....and moving on.

So much hubris stuffed in you. Money matters.

[jhu72]

... and the Basque straddling the boarder with France in the west.

... it appears neither the Catalans nor the Spanish are totally happy with that arrangement given 500-600 years of head butting. It is clear the Ukrainians aren't willing to accept that arrangement either.

MD's equation of Catalonia's quest for freedom with the Southern states rebellion is an absurdity. The Southern states signed the Constitution to become part of the USA --- one nation indivisible. Catalonia was invaded in the mid 1600s [there had been intermittent conflicts for centuries before that], lost the war, and was forced to accede to Madrid's demands. Totally different from the US experience. A contract has no validity if it is signed with a gun pointed at one's head. If Ukrainians have a right to freedom then so do Catalonians who never asked to be dictated to by the Falangists.

Interesting; I seriously don't know the exact answer to this...how long has Catalonia been part of Spain (are you saying mid-1600's?).
How long has there been a Spanish Constitution? (I'm guessing much shorter).

Are you saying that Catalonia was never part of, subject to, the Spanish Constitution?
What have the international bodies recognized as Spain's sovereign borders?
How long has that been the case, bilaterally, with their neighbors?

Again, I think there's an important case to be made that people should be able to self-determine their rule, especially as democratically represented, but this sounds more like California deciding that they should separate from the US because they don't like paying more to the federal government than they get proportionately in return...

I disagree with Salty and his contention that Donbas etc had a right to separate themselves from the rest of Ukraine, especially given how involved Russia was in trying to make that happen. Same for Crimea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Catalonia

[old salt]

Putin annexed Crimea & recognized the separatist enclaves in 2014, when Obama was President (& VP Biden had the Ukraine portfolio)
Putin invaded Ukraine in 2022, after Biden's Afghan pullout debacle. Why did Putin not move on Ukraine while Trump was President, arming & training the Ukrainian military, to good effect.

I'm not going to play this game of yours again. YOU TELL ME why you think Putin didn't invade until 2022.

Go ahead. Spell it out.

No he wouldn't.

So after claiming you didn't know what Putin would do....you're back to telling that you know exactly what Putin would do.

Neat. Any other changes you'd like to make.

No, Putin's at a stalemate. He would quit fighting & declare victory if he could keep the territory he now holds.

He can't do that, and you know it. This is the Republican "make stuff up to tell us that Biden's little D is doing it wrong" nonsense you keep pulling.

Did you notice the carbomb? He's not keeping this land, with or without our help. Ukrainians told him to F off. Stop pretending you're too stupid to know this, all so you can hit Biden.

We have mutual defense treaties with those nations going back to our wars & occupation there.
A residual force of 2500 in Afghanistan would go unnoticed, as does our residual force in Kuwait & Kuridish Iraq/Syria.

So once again, money for THAT is not only bottomless....it's endless according to you.

And yet we can't afford a few months in Ukraine. Gee, why am I making fun of you and your all-thumbs calculator use?

We are consuming our war stocks of munitions which will take years to replenish. Each Patriot missile costs $4 million a shot. They'll be used to down cheap Iranian drones.

That's what they're for, my man. Don't remember you counting tanks or bullets in Afghanistan. Or all those wars we HAD to fight. "This is different, and Biden is doing it wrong".

We have no strategic interests in Ukraine.

Black sea. I LOVE that you're still using your cro-magnon math where you insist that we don't have any energy we can access here in the 80's and "therefore" warmongering and bankrolling Saddam was "in our strategic interests".

But we don't need access to the black sea, or anything in that grows or is mined in Ukraine. It's soooper fine if Russia has all that.

There won't be gas lines in the US if Ukraine loses 15-20% of their (formerly Russian) territory. Gas & ag prices will go down. The global economy & food crisis will improve.

So there ARE strategic interests in this area, how about that? Can you point me to which Old Salt I need to speak with? By my count there are now four or five of you, all telling me different stories all because not one of them can simply shut up, admit that he was wrong, and move on.

Yep. You're right. Can you pass this information along to the Old Salt of the past ten years who mocked me for telling him this very fact? I'd appreciate it.

Reagan didn't create OBL

Riiiiight. OBL attacked us because of Clinton....not because Reagan thought it was brilliant to play games in the ME, leading to fifty years of problems, and

It was the arms & training provided under Trump which enabled the Ukrainians to repel the invasion, along with Soviet legacy stuff provided by E NATO allies.

You're first honest statement in MONTHS.

Translation: For Old Salt? Republicans good, Dems bad. It's like talking to a toddler who was sent to a military academy.

ou don't need that. Comparative GDP is all that matters.

Scoreboard, my man. You're just not enough of a gentleman to take a knee, and concede defeat. I was right, and you were wrong. Putin is out of money, and I told you that ten years ago. And now here you are, trying to type your way out of just being a man, admitting I was correct....and moving on.

So much hubris stuffed in you. Money matters.

No need to speculate. Putin invaded Ukraine when Obama & Biden were in office. He did not during the 4 years in between when Trump was in office. Coincidence ?

What are our strategic interests in Ukraine & how will they be impacted if Russia retains the (formerly Russian) territory which it now holds ?

Re. Clinton/OBL -- for 8 years, Clinton continued the no fly zones & bombing of Iraq from Saudi bases, which was OBL's primary beef. During that time, OBL bombed our E African embassies & USS Cole, while prepping the 9-11 mission. Clinton passed up a Sudanese offer to turn over OBL, let him escape in Afghanistan & launched cruise missiles to blow holes in the desert rather than inserting our special forces to take him out when he was vulnerable.

[MDlaxfan76]

When you have a useful idiot "asset" in the White House actively working to divide and undermine NATO, you can be patient.

[MDlaxfan76]

... and the Basque straddling the boarder with France in the west.

... it appears neither the Catalans nor the Spanish are totally happy with that arrangement given 500-600 years of head butting. It is clear the Ukrainians aren't willing to accept that arrangement either.

MD's equation of Catalonia's quest for freedom with the Southern states rebellion is an absurdity. The Southern states signed the Constitution to become part of the USA --- one nation indivisible. Catalonia was invaded in the mid 1600s [there had been intermittent conflicts for centuries before that], lost the war, and was forced to accede to Madrid's demands. Totally different from the US experience. A contract has no validity if it is signed with a gun pointed at one's head. If Ukrainians have a right to freedom then so do Catalonians who never asked to be dictated to by the Falangists.

Interesting; I seriously don't know the exact answer to this...how long has Catalonia been part of Spain (are you saying mid-1600's?).
How long has there been a Spanish Constitution? (I'm guessing much shorter).

Are you saying that Catalonia was never part of, subject to, the Spanish Constitution?
What have the international bodies recognized as Spain's sovereign borders?
How long has that been the case, bilaterally, with their neighbors?

Again, I think there's an important case to be made that people should be able to self-determine their rule, especially as democratically represented, but this sounds more like California deciding that they should separate from the US because they don't like paying more to the federal government than they get proportionately in return...

I disagree with Salty and his contention that Donbas etc had a right to separate themselves from the rest of Ukraine, especially given how involved Russia was in trying to make that happen. Same for Crimea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Catalonia

Thanks; that reaffirms most of my recollection, though I'm not steeped in Spanish history.


In the 20th century, Catalonia enjoyed and lost varying degrees of autonomy. The Second Spanish Republic (1931-1939) established Catalan self-government and the official use of the Catalan language. Like much of Spain, Catalonia (which, in turn, expererienced a revolutionary process) fought to defend the Republic in the Civil War of 1936–1939. The Republican defeat established the dictatorship of Francisco Franco, which unleashed a harsh repression and suppressed the autonomy. With Spain devastated and cut off from international trade and the autarkic politics of the regime, Catalonia, as an industrial center, suffered severely; the economic recovery was slow. Between 1959 and 1974 Spain experienced the second-fastest economic expansion in the world known as the Spanish Miracle, and Catalonia prospered as Spain's most important industrial and tourist area. In 1975 Franco died, bringing his regime to an end, and the new democratic Spanish constitution of 1978 recognised Catalonia's autonomy and language. It regained considerable self-government in internal affairs and today remains one of the most economically dynamic communities of Spain. In the 2010s there have been growing calls for Catalan independence.

[Brooklyn]

Interesting; I seriously don't know the exact answer to this...how long has Catalonia been part of Spain (are you saying mid-1600's?).
How long has there been a Spanish Constitution? (I'm guessing much shorter).

Are you saying that Catalonia was never part of, subject to, the Spanish Constitution?
What have the international bodies recognized as Spain's sovereign borders?
How long has that been the case, bilaterally, with their neighbors?

Again, I think there's an important case to be made that people should be able to self-determine their rule, especially as democratically represented, but this sounds more like California deciding that they should separate from the US because they don't like paying more to the federal government than they get proportionately in return...

I disagree with Salty and his contention that Donbas etc had a right to separate themselves from the rest of Ukraine, especially given how involved Russia was in trying to make that happen. Same for Crimea.

Catalonia (of Punic-Carthaginian origin) came into existence before Latinates Hispania (Spain) and Lusitania (Portugal). Its language is very different from both countries. All three lands invaded by Gothic tribes which caused further division among them. A couple of centuries before the war in the 1600s it was invaded and conquered by Aragon. Wars between Aragon and Catalonia go back to about the year 1200 with the Papacy frequently becoming involved in them. Unlike Russia and Ukraine who have a common origin, these countries spoke different languages and different origins. Then there were the Muslim conquests which complicated things even more.

Re Donbas, The people took a plebiscite in 2014 and voted for independence. I believe in the right to self determination. If the majority want freedom form Kiev, so be it. But it's none of our concern. Russia for Russians. Ukraine for Ukrainians. Catalonia for Catalonians. Let them each decide their own fate --- naturally without our involvement.

[a fan]

No need to speculate. Putin invaded Ukraine when Obama & Biden were in office. He did not during the 4 years in between when Trump was in office. Coincidence ?

Yes! Jeezus.

What are our strategic interests in Ukraine & how will they be impacted if Russia retains the (formerly Russian) territory which it now holds ?

Have you notice who is controlling the Black Sea? It ain't Turkey. Can ships do as they wish, or not?

Re. Clinton/OBL -- for 8 years, Clinton continued the no fly zones & bombing of Iraq from Saudi bases, which was OBL's primary beef

Yep. And tell me: why were we there? Magic beans? Levitation? And if Clinton pulled out? You would have been on this forum (if it were here), whining about how he can't do that because we can never leave because "insert dumb reason".

During that time, OBL bombed our E African embassies & USS Cole, while prepping the 9-11 mission. Clinton passed up a Sudanese offer to turn over OBL, let him escape in Afghanistan & launched cruise missiles to blow holes in the desert rather than inserting our special forces to take him out when he was vulnerable.

Yep. You're right. Dems are bad. Why would expect anything else but this simple minded blather from you?

All that education. All that experience. All completely leveled by political party. It frightens me to no end that there are men and women who think like you do----regardless of party-----making military decisions that effect all of us. It's just......sad.

We're winning a war against Putin. Absolutely SMOKING HIM, with zero US casualties. In what would would a lifelong Neo-con and card carrying Republic not cheer that? Or at least tip your cap at the man in charge of these choices? Or at least say "boy, this is going so much better than I expected".

It's so transparently phony.....I have no clue how you type this stuff without laughing because you don't mean a word of it.

Keep throwing stones. Biden bad. Fire bad.

[Brooklyn]

MD,


In 1975 Franco died, bringing his regime to an end, and the new democratic Spanish constitution of 1978 recognised Catalonia's autonomy and language. It regained considerable self-government in internal affairs and today remains one of the most economically dynamic communities of Spain. In the 2010s there have been growing calls for Catalan independence.

Catalonian independence movement did not participate in nor recognize the results of that vote in 1978. They do not want "considerable" self-government, they want total self-government.

[old salt]

Have you notice who is controlling the Black Sea? It ain't Turkey. Can ships do as they wish, or not?

In what would would a lifelong Neo-con and card carrying Republic not cheer that? Or at least tip your cap at the man in charge of these choices? Or at least say "boy, this is going so much better than I expected".

I'm not a life long neo-con. I'm a paleo-con.
Turkey controls who sails in & out of the Black Sea & limits the number & size of warships.
I'll celebrate Ukraine's victory & survival if this war ends soon.
The weapons we're expending are more valuable than the weapons Russia is consuming.
We've learned the soft spots & weaknesses in Russia's military. We're just slaughtering more untrained conscripts.

[MDlaxfan76]

Have you notice who is controlling the Black Sea? It ain't Turkey. Can ships do as they wish, or not?

In what would would a lifelong Neo-con and card carrying Republic not cheer that? Or at least tip your cap at the man in charge of these choices? Or at least say "boy, this is going so much better than I expected".

I'm not a life long neo-con. I'm a paleo-con.
Turkey controls who sails in & out of the Black Sea & limits the number & size of warships.
I'll celebrate Ukraine's victory & survival if this war ends soon.
The weapons we're expending are more valuable than the weapons Russia is consuming.
We've learned the soft spots & weaknesses in Russia's military. We're just slaughtering more untrained conscripts.

We'd ALL celebrate if Putin was to withdraw his forces from all of Ukraine tomorrow.

Will you "celebrate victory" if Ukraine is forced to fight a long time to expel Russia?

What % of the USA's total annual defense spending was on assisting Ukraine this past year?

[MDlaxfan76]

Interesting; I seriously don't know the exact answer to this...how long has Catalonia been part of Spain (are you saying mid-1600's?).
How long has there been a Spanish Constitution? (I'm guessing much shorter).

Are you saying that Catalonia was never part of, subject to, the Spanish Constitution?
What have the international bodies recognized as Spain's sovereign borders?
How long has that been the case, bilaterally, with their neighbors?

Again, I think there's an important case to be made that people should be able to self-determine their rule, especially as democratically represented, but this sounds more like California deciding that they should separate from the US because they don't like paying more to the federal government than they get proportionately in return...

I disagree with Salty and his contention that Donbas etc had a right to separate themselves from the rest of Ukraine, especially given how involved Russia was in trying to make that happen. Same for Crimea.

Catalonia (of Punic-Carthaginian origin) came into existence before Latinates Hispania (Spain) and Lusitania (Portugal). Its language is very different from both countries. All three lands invaded by Gothic tribes which caused further division among them. A couple of centuries before the war in the 1600s it was invaded and conquered by Aragon. Wars between Aragon and Catalonia go back to about the year 1200 with the Papacy frequently becoming involved in them. Unlike Russia and Ukraine who have a common origin, these countries spoke different languages and different origins. Then there were the Muslim conquests which complicated things even more.

Re Donbas, The people took a plebiscite in 2014 and voted for independence. I believe in the right to self determination. If the majority want freedom form Kiev, so be it. But it's none of our concern. Russia for Russians. Ukraine for Ukrainians. Catalonia for Catalonians. Let them each decide their own fate --- naturally without our involvement.

Which people took a "plebiscite"? Russians living in Ukraine?
Did they vote for annexation by Russia?
Was that the next step in the plan?

Again, I'm fine with the argument that the Catalonians want to make that they would like autonomous rule...but this is about an invasion, which was taking place quietly long before the "plebiscite", and the loss of sovereignty.

[a fan]

Have you notice who is controlling the Black Sea? It ain't Turkey. Can ships do as they wish, or not?

In what would would a lifelong Neo-con and card carrying Republic not cheer that? Or at least tip your cap at the man in charge of these choices? Or at least say "boy, this is going so much better than I expected".

I'm not a life long neo-con. I'm a paleo-con.
Turkey controls who sails in & out of the Black Sea & limits the number & size of warships.

They do? Great Fing news? Ukrainian shipments have been sailing this whole time, right? .......oh, wait.......so when you said Turkey controls it, you meant Putin.

And in the future? What makes you think everything will be cool with your level headed, non-hostile Vladimir Putin? You think he's gonna be all warm hugs and such when it comes to trade, if and when we get out of this mess?

Putin's ruined his own trade for generations to come. You can't rely on Russian energy. He's F'ed his entire country, badly.

I'll celebrate Ukraine's victory & survival if this war ends soon.

Again, fake complaints. We're not even at year one. Afghanistan? For you? 20 years wasn't enough for you. You wanted more. If Trump was here, you'd be lecturing me on patience.

The best part of all this? You know I'm right. You wouldn't have complained once-----not once----if Biden was a R. Not one single time. You'd be cheering, and lecturing to us about how this stuff is hard, and completely ignoring any obvious mistakes-------just like you did when Trump was in office.

The weapons we're expending are more valuable than the weapons Russia is consuming.

So what? At this point, we could man NATO borders with a couple of guys with pitchforks, and Putin couldn't get past them. Seems like a good trade if you're into that sort of thing (which you are).

And naturally, you'd be telling me this if Biden didn't have that pesky D by his name.

We've learned the soft spots & weaknesses in Russia's military. We're just slaughtering more untrained conscripts.

More buffalo bagels. They're using up weapons and competent men, and will continue to have to do so.

But please, as I've been saying......you just keep right on glass-half-emptying this thing, and acting like Biden is doing it wrong.

No one here is buying it.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Have you notice who is controlling the Black Sea? It ain't Turkey. Can ships do as they wish, or not?

In what would would a lifelong Neo-con and card carrying Republic not cheer that? Or at least tip your cap at the man in charge of these choices? Or at least say "boy, this is going so much better than I expected".

I'm not a life long neo-con. I'm a paleo-con.
Turkey controls who sails in & out of the Black Sea & limits the number & size of warships.
I'll celebrate Ukraine's victory & survival if this war ends soon.
The weapons we're expending are more valuable than the weapons Russia is consuming.
We've learned the soft spots & weaknesses in Russia's military. We're just slaughtering more untrained conscripts.

We'd ALL celebrate if Putin was to withdraw his forces from all of Ukraine tomorrow.

Will you "celebrate victory" if Ukraine is forced to fight a long time to expel Russia?

What % of the USA's total annual defense spending was on assisting Ukraine this past year?

Alex, What is $26 billion out of $1.6 TRILLION?

[PizzaSnake]

Have you notice who is controlling the Black Sea? It ain't Turkey. Can ships do as they wish, or not?

In what would would a lifelong Neo-con and card carrying Republic not cheer that? Or at least tip your cap at the man in charge of these choices? Or at least say "boy, this is going so much better than I expected".

I'm not a life long neo-con. I'm a paleo-con.
Turkey controls who sails in & out of the Black Sea & limits the number & size of warships.
I'll celebrate Ukraine's victory & survival if this war ends soon.
The weapons we're expending are more valuable than the weapons Russia is consuming.
We've learned the soft spots & weaknesses in Russia's military. We're just slaughtering more untrained conscripts.

We'd ALL celebrate if Putin was to withdraw his forces from all of Ukraine tomorrow.

Will you "celebrate victory" if Ukraine is forced to fight a long time to expel Russia?

What % of the USA's total annual defense spending was on assisting Ukraine this past year?

Alex, What is $26 billion out of $1.6 TRILLION?

“Military spending includes the Departments of Homeland Security, State, and Veterans Affairs. All of these military costs combined equal $943.9 billion.“

https://www.thebalancemoney.com/u-s-fed ... c-spending

26/945 = .0275


Let’s say 2.8%

Money well spent.

As far as OS’s plaint re national interest, I posit this: food.

The reason everyone is interested in Ukraine.

[old salt]

Have you notice who is controlling the Black Sea? It ain't Turkey. Can ships do as they wish, or not?

In what would would a lifelong Neo-con and card carrying Republic not cheer that? Or at least tip your cap at the man in charge of these choices? Or at least say "boy, this is going so much better than I expected".

I'm not a life long neo-con. I'm a paleo-con.
Turkey controls who sails in & out of the Black Sea & limits the number & size of warships.
I'll celebrate Ukraine's victory & survival if this war ends soon.
The weapons we're expending are more valuable than the weapons Russia is consuming.
We've learned the soft spots & weaknesses in Russia's military. We're just slaughtering more untrained conscripts.

We'd ALL celebrate if Putin was to withdraw his forces from all of Ukraine tomorrow.

Will you "celebrate victory" if Ukraine is forced to fight a long time to expel Russia?

What % of the USA's total annual defense spending was on assisting Ukraine this past year?

It depends on how long it drags on, what's the butcher's bill, & if the outcome promises stability or a resumption of warfare. This has been an extremely brutal war for the combatants & the Ukrainian population. You have no idea how long this will drag on, the cost in further loss of life, the destruction that will have to be rebuilt & the unanticipated events which may arise along the way. You may have noticed that no one is talking seriously about how this ends. It's ez to say that it will end when Russia is expelled from all territory, including Crimea & the Donbas, but no one talks about what that will require. We're not yet even considering giving the Ukrainians what it will take to accomplish that. You can hope for a collapse of the Russian military or regime change & withdrawal, but those are black swan events. Gen Milley hasn't modified his grim assessment. Meanwhile, the killing, carnage & suffering continues with no negotiations in sight to end or pause the fighting.

[old salt]

Have you notice who is controlling the Black Sea? It ain't Turkey. Can ships do as they wish, or not?

In what would would a lifelong Neo-con and card carrying Republic not cheer that? Or at least tip your cap at the man in charge of these choices? Or at least say "boy, this is going so much better than I expected".

I'm not a life long neo-con. I'm a paleo-con.
Turkey controls who sails in & out of the Black Sea & limits the number & size of warships.

They do? Great Fing news? Ukrainian shipments have been sailing this whole time, right? .......oh, wait.......so when you said Turkey controls it, you meant Putin. Wrong. Turkey controls who sails in & out of the Black Sea. Russia was not blockading the entire Black Sea, just access to Ukrainian ports.

And in the future? What makes you think everything will be cool with your level headed, non-hostile Vladimir Putin? You think he's gonna be all warm hugs and such when it comes to trade, if and when we get out of this mess?
Yes. Russia needs seaborne trade as much as Ukraine does. The grain shipments are still sailing.

Putin's ruined his own trade for generations to come. You can't rely on Russian energy. He's F'ed his entire country, badly.
You keep saying that but it hasn't happened yet. China, Iran, India & the rest of the non-aligned world are happy to continue trading with Russia. Russia was already under sanctions from the US & EU anyway.

I'll celebrate Ukraine's victory & survival if this war ends soon.

Again, fake complaints. We're not even at year one. Afghanistan? For you? 20 years wasn't enough for you. You wanted more. If Trump was here, you'd be lecturing me on patience.
There's already reports of >100k casualties on both sides. This is the bloodiest western war since WW II.

The best part of all this? You know I'm right. You wouldn't have complained once-----not once----if Biden was a R. Not one single time. You'd be cheering, and lecturing to us about how this stuff is hard, and completely ignoring any obvious mistakes-------just like you did when Trump was in office.
You have no idea what we'd be doing if our President was a (R).

The weapons we're expending are more valuable than the weapons Russia is consuming.

So what? At this point, we could man NATO borders with a couple of guys with pitchforks, and Putin couldn't get past them. Seems like a good trade if you're into that sort of thing (which you are).

And naturally, you'd be telling me this if Biden didn't have that pesky D by his name.
I already said that but you're too busy ranting to listen. I said that given Russia's military performance, we can bring our troops home from the E front & let the NATO EUros handle their own defense.

We've learned the soft spots & weaknesses in Russia's military. We're just slaughtering more untrained conscripts.

More buffalo bagels. They're using up weapons and competent men, and will continue to have to do so.
You may want to read the latest from the NYT.

But please, as I've been saying......you just keep right on glass-half-emptying this thing, and acting like Biden is doing it wrong.
We don't know what Biden is doing, or planning to do. He won't tell us.
No one here is buying it.

[a fan]

Wrong. Turkey controls who sails in & out of the Black Sea. Russia was not blockading the entire Black Sea, just access to Ukrainian ports.

Oh, is that all? Well, carry on then. I guess we just don't need that stuff.

Yes. Russia needs seaborne trade as much as Ukraine does. The grain shipments are still sailing.

They are now. What's the plan when Putin throws another temper tantrum? So what, who cares....is that it?

ou keep saying that but it hasn't happened yet. China, Iran, India & the rest of the non-aligned world are happy to continue trading with Russia. Russia was already under sanctions from the US & EU anyway.

And they built Nordrsteam 2 and took on EU customers....for fun? Cut off the world that can afford your sh(t, and nothing bad will happen, is that it? They teach supply and demand at the academy? This is your idea of winning in the economic area? Good thing you were on the .gov payroll, and didn't have to run your own business if you believe your own nonsense.

(you don't believe a word of what you're trolling me with here, and know full well Putin's dug his nation into a generations-long hole.)

There's already reports of >100k casualties on both sides. This is the bloodiest western war since WW II.

"Western". Avoid the Eastern numbers, right?

You have no idea what we'd be doing if our President was a (R).

You just told me Putin wouldn't have invaded. Change your mind, yet again.

I didn't say I know what we'd be doing if Biden had that little R-----i said that I know how YOU would have handled every single one of Biden's choices so far. You'd be cheering. Telling us how he nimbly destroyed Putin's army without a single casualty. Oh, and that war sucks, and none of us want war, but Putin asked for this.

I already said that but you're too busy ranting to listen. I said that given Russia's military performance, we can bring our troops home from the E front & let the NATO EUros handle their own defense.

Great. So why aren't you cheering? Oh, that's right---you're not allowed to do that, what with that little D in the way. Gotcha.

And please, tell me again how I don't listen....when you don't listen to anyone here, and just blow through their posts.

You may want to read the latest from the NYT.

So NOW you believe them? I thought they were the bad guys, cheering all this on with pie-eyed optimism. Change your mind, for the 1,000th time?

We don't know what Biden is doing, or planning to do. He won't tell us.

Yep. Know why? He's not an utter moron, and neither are our generals. Stupid, sure. A neo-con? Sure. Perfect? Hardly.

This is all in line with why I'm giving you grief: you're on here, pretending to complain that Biden isn't showing Putin and the world what he's thinking.

When Trump was in charge? How many times did you lecture all of us about the importance "strategic ambiguity"? Ten? Twenty?

Yet here you are, claiming you're upset that Biden is following YOUR advice when Trump was in charge, but have changed your mind now that his little D has arrived. Stop. Just stop. You're better than this. Tip your hat to Biden for doing what you've asked, and move on......