Johns Hopkins 2023

[HopFan16]

Perhaps of note, Caracciolo is 55% (39 saves vs. 32 goals allowed) in his three career starts against new Jays opponent St. Joe's. He also has 2021 NCAA tournament experience vs. that year's eventual national champion Virginia — went 8 saves/13 allowed in a two-goal loss, though that's still better than how our other goalies fared vs. the Hoos in 2022. So while, yes, Bryant's schedule on the whole is nothing like ours, he does at least have experience against some common opponents and in those games he's largely done okay.

Last season the Jays were #63 (out of 72) in saves per game and the starting goalie was #62 in individual save percentage. The other three goalies were all well under 50% in their relief appearances and there's been absolutely no indication one is ready to take the reins. Maybe that's changed in the offseason but they *had* to go get someone to make the goalie room more experienced and competitive. Don't really think we're in a position to be picky here. The bar is basically on the floor at this point. It's kind of amazing the defense had the metrics they did in 2022 despite the goaltending issue — makes me think their stats as a unit could be quite good with merely competent goalie play. Sadly "competent goalie play" has been this program's white whale for years.

[flalax22]

Did I miss something the last 40-50 years? How many times has Hopkins needed a transfer at that position?

So it sounds like the answer is NO.
You can't name a transfer goalie in the last hundred years who has worked out for us.

I looked at Bryant's schedule last year and it looks like Luke played heavyweights Providence, Merrimack, Air Force, Hobart, Vermont and Sacred Heart.
If he went 53% against that schedule, he should go about 33% against ours.

I would hope that they would have an open competition in January and pick the best goalie based on metrics and statistics. Just anointing someone the starter because he transferred in is a mistake. They need to get it right too, because they could easily go 0-2 to start the season against Jacksonville and Georgetown. Not sure this team can recover from 0-2 given their lack of talent and strength of schedule.

Sorry, I don't think your space aliens understand lacrosse too well.

To be fair, in the past decade of goalie recruiting, which tenders have "worked out for us"?
Two different coaching staffs...

Of course they'll evaluate and do their best to put who they think will do the best in and out of the net. Not sure why anyone would think they will do otherwise. Doesn't mean they'll get it right, but then again...it's not as if the former staff was doing well on this 'metric' in their last years...or am I missing something?

Said a million times, but ER messed the bed in goalie recruiting at Hop.

Petro threw the kitchen sink at Logan McNaney as a high school sophomore. If he landed him I suspect we would be having a different discussion

[HopFan16]

Petro threw the kitchen sink at Logan McNaney as a high school sophomore. If he landed him I suspect we would be having a different discussion

Marcille committed to Hopkins weeks before McNaney committed to Maryland in that same class. Clearly didn't want him that badly or he'd have waited for the kid's decision before signing someone else. But "waiting" was not part of the recruiting strategy back then.

[MDlaxfan76]

So Turnbaugh (Hereford) was not prepared to play at the level of Hopkins’ competition? Jesse S. (Pikesville) played against the same high opponents as did Turnbaugh. Refresh my memory, please. How did Hopkins do with that public school kid between the pipes?

People are different right? Jesse was great. Mark Greenberg played at Pikesville as I recall and he was the best defenseman I have ever seen.
Some players make the transition better than others for various reasons. I think the culture shock was a little much for Brock but, as I say, he improved significantly over the course of his Hopkins career.

To be fair, Turnbaugh played for an excellent Hereford program which produced quite a few terrific players during those years. Players who produced at a quite high level in college, including a couple who gave Hop fits as opponents. I just didn't think he was what the hype on here suggested when he arrived, having watched him. I was hoping it might turn out differently, but he was a late replacement for an ER who dropped out of being in the mix. He had a strong enough senior season at 50.6%, but junior year was 40.7%. Big 10 Academic selection which you gotta love.

Jesse had 'big-game' capabilities which are rare no matter what program. He had pretty poor form much of the time, which dampened him in some games, but he could really 'turn it on' when things were tense.

[DocBarrister]

Did I miss something the last 40-50 years? How many times has Hopkins needed a transfer at that position?

So it sounds like the answer is NO.
You can't name a transfer goalie in the last hundred years who has worked out for us.

I looked at Bryant's schedule last year and it looks like Luke played heavyweights Providence, Merrimack, Air Force, Hobart, Vermont and Sacred Heart.
If he went 53% against that schedule, he should go about 33% against ours.

I would hope that they would have an open competition in January and pick the best goalie based on metrics and statistics. Just anointing someone the starter because he transferred in is a mistake. They need to get it right too, because they could easily go 0-2 to start the season against Jacksonville and Georgetown. Not sure this team can recover from 0-2 given their lack of talent and strength of schedule.

Sorry, I don't think your space aliens understand lacrosse too well.

To be fair, in the past decade of goalie recruiting, which tenders have "worked out for us"?
Two different coaching staffs...

Of course they'll evaluate and do their best to put who they think will do the best in and out of the net. Not sure why anyone would think they will do otherwise. Doesn't mean they'll get it right, but then again...it's not as if the former staff was doing well on this 'metric' in their last years...or am I missing something?

Said a million times, but ER messed the bed in goalie recruiting at Hop.

Eric Schneider really worked out for us and Bassett really worked out for us. Those were the two best goalies we've had in the last dozen years. I just don't really agree with the transfer goalie model for a number a reasons. Why not trust players in your system over players who got PT against lesser schedules? It's like trying to patch up your program with Band-Aids. Elite goalies who can give you 60% against top competition are rarely available for transfer. I would like to see either Webb or Marcille start to be honest. Work with what you got rather than constantly shaking up the pot.

ohhh, I wouldn't debate that it's not better to grow your own strong starter and bench, not rely on transfers. Including grad transfers.

There's not a ton of data on goalie transfer situations, so I don't think we can draw conclusions from the very small set.

It'll be interesting to see what Dartmouth's Hincks does as a grad transfer at Georgetown and what Harvard's Mullin does for Rutgers as a grad transfer.

My son was in the process of considering doing grad year when concussions took him off the field altogether...had that not happened, pretty sure he'd have done well at any program in need of a proven starter. He'd faced multiple Tewey winners, multiple very high scoring offenses at the highest level, and didn't have a strong defense, having lost 2 legit AA defenders to injury and terrible X play...so, saw a lot of shots. Having Adam Ghittleman coach him in college, well prepared.

So, I wouldn't rule out the transfer being successful, but there's no guarantee. Nor year to year performance for that matter, eg. Schneider's 2014 versus his 2015 season (but, yes, he worked out). My point about decade was that Schneider would have been getting recruited back in 2010...there was a slew of bad busts in ER after him.

I'm sure these guys will be competing.

Blue Jays have had some talent in the goalie room the past dozen years or so. Just not sure they were developed by the coaching staff as well as they could have been.

DocBarrister

Certainly "talent".

I can't assess the level of talent in the goalie room in college other than what happens when they see the field.

Obviously, some guys progress significantly in college, others don't. Some of that is coaching development, some of that is the culture of the "goalie room", some of that is luck of the draw. But the college game is much faster than HS, faster than the very best programs in the very toughest leagues (though that helps), and more complicated to run the defense, and the tender needs to have a maturity level to meet the leadership demands and withstand the inevitable barrage.

My issue, primarily, was on the number of tenders recruited super early who either never made it to Hop or who were relative busts. I'd warned that evaluating tenders as freshmen and sophomores in HS, with all the chips placed on one per year, was bound to backfire. That's what unfortunately happened at Hop. IMO, early accolades tend to create expectations that a tender finds increasingly difficult to live up to, and fear of failure becomes a factor rather than eagerness. Seemed to happen repeatedly to ER commits. And Hop multiple times made the very first or second goalie commitment in successive classes...

Those who got tapped at Hop when things blew up for the ER commit were not as well evaluated as I think they could have been. They weren't even the best available at the times of their being tapped (IMO); they were simply available, though committed elsewhere in some cases...

I'd seen a couple of them during their HS days, and they were not near the top of my list in their respective classes as seniors. Which doesn't mean no talent. Just that they were at best gambles, at worst, wishful thinking. Ok for that to be the case every other year, but, for a contender for NC's, there should be two on the roster who were at least near the top of their classes in their respective years as they enter college.

ER is over, so the question is whether Hop can build a goalie room with sufficient talent and a great culture that produces top level goalie play at game time. Time will tell.

Very helpful insights. Thanks, MD.

DocBarrister

[DocBarrister]

ER is over, so the question is whether Hop can build a goalie room with sufficient talent and a great culture that produces top level goalie play at game time. Time will tell.

I think you have to get lucky too. Haven't done a deep dive, but it doesn't seem to me like there has been much correlation between recruiting status and AA honors at the goalie position recently and I don't think that's a Hop-only phenomena (though our luck does seem to have been particularly bad).

yes, definitely luck comes into play...but also gotta pick well, most of the time.

Hoos have done well at this...helps to have an AA goalie as a key coach...also helps in development.

Again, my issue was that ER took a difficult task of recognizing both talent and likely maturity and made it far, far more difficult. It was predictable, though could have gotten "lucky" at some point.

Hoos struggled as well in the ER era.

Seems to me that Coach Tillman at Maryland has been among the most successful coaches with respect to goalies in the past decade. Was Coach Tillman simply better at identifying talented goalies during the ER era? And/or was he better at developing them?

DocBarrister

[MDlaxfan76]

ER is over, so the question is whether Hop can build a goalie room with sufficient talent and a great culture that produces top level goalie play at game time. Time will tell.

I think you have to get lucky too. Haven't done a deep dive, but it doesn't seem to me like there has been much correlation between recruiting status and AA honors at the goalie position recently and I don't think that's a Hop-only phenomena (though our luck does seem to have been particularly bad).

yes, definitely luck comes into play...but also gotta pick well, most of the time.

Hoos have done well at this...helps to have an AA goalie as a key coach...also helps in development.

Again, my issue was that ER took a difficult task of recognizing both talent and likely maturity and made it far, far more difficult. It was predictable, though could have gotten "lucky" at some point.

Hoos struggled as well in the ER era.

Seems to me that Coach Tillman at Maryland has been among the most successful coaches with respect to goalies in the past decade. Was Coach Tillman simply better at identifying talented goalies during the ER era? And/or was he better at developing them?

DocBarrister

My recollection is that Tillman was later in ER, slower to commit than were some others...and that included tenders, if I'm not mistaken. I don't recall Tillman ever being one of the first 5 picks overall, much less so with goalies. He did go earlier and earlier, but generally later than the earliest.

That said, McNaney committed in his freshman year of HS...and it worked out. He was still the #2 ranked goalie coming out of HS. And that proved to be a good prediction.

Being a former goalie may also benefit Tillman.

[Sagittarius A*]

Seems to me that Coach Tillman at Maryland has been among the most successful coaches with respect to goalies in the past decade. Was Coach Tillman simply better at identifying talented goalies during the ER era? And/or was he better at developing them?

DocBarrister


My recollection is that Tillman was later in ER, slower to commit than were some others...and that included tenders, if I'm not mistaken. I don't recall Tillman ever being one of the first 5 picks overall, much less so with goalies. He did go earlier and earlier, but generally later than the earliest.

That said, McNaney committed in his freshman year of HS...and it worked out. He was still the #2 ranked goalie coming out of HS. And that proved to be a good prediction.

Being a former goalie may also benefit Tillman.

As a former goalie yourself, what lacrosse factors would you consider most strongly when choosing a college?
I believe Bob Scott was also a goalie when he played. As a side note, he spends a significant amount of print in his book discussing the correct way to warm up a goalie.

[molo]

For some reason I thought Coach Scott was a middie.

[MDlaxfan76]

Seems to me that Coach Tillman at Maryland has been among the most successful coaches with respect to goalies in the past decade. Was Coach Tillman simply better at identifying talented goalies during the ER era? And/or was he better at developing them?

DocBarrister


My recollection is that Tillman was later in ER, slower to commit than were some others...and that included tenders, if I'm not mistaken. I don't recall Tillman ever being one of the first 5 picks overall, much less so with goalies. He did go earlier and earlier, but generally later than the earliest.

That said, McNaney committed in his freshman year of HS...and it worked out. He was still the #2 ranked goalie coming out of HS. And that proved to be a good prediction.

Being a former goalie may also benefit Tillman.

As a former goalie yourself, what lacrosse factors would you consider most strongly when choosing a college?
I believe Bob Scott was also a goalie when he played. As a side note, he spends a significant amount of print in his book discussing the correct way to warm up a goalie.

Scott was a midfielder; my dad told of being scored on twice by Scott at Homewood. He swept hard right, pivoted and ripped a back hand shovel shot low past a screen...my dad used to kid Coach Scott (how I addressed him) for not taking that shot 10 times...he'd have scored 10 goals...UVA beat Hopkins for the first time that year.

Yes, in his book, he focused a lot on proper warm-up.
I know they also took a lot of time to think about proper training techniques as well...

Focusing solely on 'lacrosse factors', I think getting a sense that goaltending is appreciated as a unique part of the game, deserving of a lot of coaching attention, and a sense that the "goalie room" culture is mutually supportive. Competitive, but 'next man up' attitude, supporting the guy on the field. Obviously, a team that takes pride in defense is important as well.

I'm a fan of wide open style of lax, which, though it places a lot of pressure on the tender to stay focused in the melee, is a really fun way to play the game...and having fun is what it should be all about.

If I see a goalie not getting warmed up by a coach, eg one of the 3rd string players...no way.

I recall Joe Cowan warming up some tenders while he was assistant coaching...demanding and purposeful.

Taking the family to Faidley's at Lexington Market now for oysters, crab cakes and beer. Family tradition!

[44WeWantMore]

A good year in many sports.
https://vimeo.com/783956294

And JHU Sets Division III Fall Record with 500.5 Directors' Cup Points
https://hopkinssports.com/news/2022/12/ ... -year.aspx

[BlueJaySince1947]

For some reason I thought Coach Scott was a middie.

I saw him play...he was midfielder...

[nyjay]

Petro threw the kitchen sink at Logan McNaney as a high school sophomore. If he landed him I suspect we would be having a different discussion

That's actually a very interesting point and it leads directly to one of the big questions - if McNaney had gone to Hop would he have turned into a reasonable facsimile of the McNaney we saw at Maryland? I think probably not and that we'd probably still be having the same discussion. But I'm not sure. A variation on the nature vs. nurture discussion. Are we getting the wrong players or we developing the ones we get poorly? It's definitely a bit of both, but I'm not sure which is the bigger problem. And I recognize that it's not really possible to evaluate the new staff on the point yet. I do think the old staff didn't do a great job developing defenders and goalies, but that's water under the bridge.

[Sagittarius A*]

If I see a goalie not getting warmed up by a coach, eg one of the 3rd string players...no way.

I recall Joe Cowan warming up some tenders while he was assistant coaching...demanding and purposeful.

Taking the family to Faidley's at Lexington Market now for oysters, crab cakes and beer. Family tradition!

I do remember JC warming up the goalies back in the day. I recall it was a very active warmup. He would run around taking shots on the run from different angles, simulating how it might be in game. He also mixed the shots up a lot and really made the goalie work. The best goalies were usually smooth and fluid. They would anticipate where the shot was going and get there. It would be pretty cool to be a goalie and actually get a warm-up from a legend like Joe Cowan.

The coaches were so precise back in the day. They had everything down to a science and the teams were methodical. I saw so many good teams come into Homewood and get systematically blown off the field. It was something to see.

[MDlaxfan76]

If I see a goalie not getting warmed up by a coach, eg one of the 3rd string players...no way.

I recall Joe Cowan warming up some tenders while he was assistant coaching...demanding and purposeful.

Taking the family to Faidley's at Lexington Market now for oysters, crab cakes and beer. Family tradition!

I do remember JC warming up the goalies back in the day. I recall it was a very active warmup. He would run around taking shots on the run from different angles, simulating how it might be in game. He also mixed the shots up a lot and really made the goalie work. The best goalies were usually smooth and fluid. They would anticipate where the shot was going and get there. It would be pretty cool to be a goalie and actually get a warm-up from a legend like Joe Cowan.

The coaches were so precise back in the day. They had everything down to a science and the teams were methodical. I saw so many good teams come into Homewood and get systematically blown off the field. It was something to see.

Yes, though I hope I get a chance to ask him, perhaps this spring on the patio, about how he warmed up tenders, my recollection is that Joe followed Coach Scott's manual. Work each area predictably at first, beginning up high, getting loose...goalie knows what shot is coming. Only when fully loose, moving well, and confident, mix up the shots, increasingly demanding. The point isn't to score for the shooter, rather it's to help the tender ramp up his eyes, hands, and body confidently...knowing that you're making saves versus Cowan of course is a confidence builder too!

But the most important thing in game day prep is the mind...having the goalie be at his most confident and resilient self.

Note, it requires true confidence, not faux confidence, to be resilient when the ball goes in the back of the net...especially when there's been a run of such...gotta truly believe that one can and will save the next shot...and especially the shots under the most pressure, the walk-off save, the turnaround and fast break outlet save to spark a comeback, etc. And against the very toughest shooters.

Moreover, to be resilient means that when the bio-rhythms or whatever haven't been with you on a given day, the belief that with work, you'll be 100% ready the next game day to make those high pressure saves.

Not all coaches understand this about tenders, don't necessarily recruit for it, don't necessarily train and prep the goalie for it. But a few do and I think that impacts what we see on the field over the years from those programs.

I think there was a long period in which Hopkins had a relative advantage to all but perhaps a couple of programs in the organization and depth of the coaching staff. It helped that they had a critical mass of high lax IQ players to coach, of course, but I think you're right...the organization was simply differentially better than most others.

My high school coach at Gilman was Dave Allan and I was surprised at how relatively poorly my college team's organization was compared to my HS program, which was very well organized...of course, in college, we had one assistant and if we were lucky, one grad assistant some days...that all changed when HoF coach Bill Ritch joined, in 'retirement' as our Associate Head...organization, intensity, and expectations jumped a big notch and low and behold we began to knock off top ranked teams.

My sense is that many more teams have competent, well-organized, intentional coaching and practices now. So, the differential advantage hasn't been Hop's in the way we remember it from decades ago.

[HillsLax]

Bob Scott played goalie when at Forest Park High School--he told us he was one of the better guys on the team and the coach decided he could best help by playing in the cage. At a Hopkins' practice one day Coach was not happy with the lack of intensity, so he did something to fire up the guys: he borrowed a cup, a helmet and a goalie stick and told us to pick out our three best shooters while he went into the goal--and then it was on. I forget if there were many goals or saves, but Coach got everyone's attention and (continued) respect. It was a memorable Bob Scott moment.

I coached for two decades and when I warmed up the goalie I always followed the way Coach set forth in his book. A good goalie warm-up is crucial.

[MDlaxfan76]

Bob Scott played goalie when at Forest Park High School--he told us he was one of the better guys on the team and the coach decided he could best help by playing in the cage. At a Hopkins' practice one day Coach was not happy with the lack of intensity, so he did something to fire up the guys: he borrowed a cup, a helmet and a goalie stick and told us to pick out our three best shooters while he went into the goal--and then it was on. I forget if there were many goals or saves, but Coach got everyone's attention and (continued) respect. It was a memorable Bob Scott moment.

I coached for two decades and when I warmed up the goalie I always followed the way Coach set forth in his book. A good goalie warm-up is crucial.

Interesting tidbit about his being in net at Forest Park...was that for a whole season?
Or just a game or two?

I know he played midfield at Hopkins.
NC team in 1950 and All-American in 1952 (the year I mentioned with UVA at Homewood).

[molo]

FP must have had a pretty d led by Lloyd Bunting, aka Laxlloyd.

[51percentcorn]

I really can't believe warming up the goalies is back - I only have myself to blame. But let's make one final point about this insanity - the original post was that Hopkins was missing the greatest opportunity in the world by not sending out a mid 40 year old man with bad knees to warm up the goalie because he was a phenomenal player and the offensive coordinator is the only person in the room that can do this one task that obviously determines the outcome of the game. When presented with facts that contradicted this - i.e. Chic warmed up goalies - Cowan - according to his bio - was not on the staff when Quinn was playing - crickets. So now apparently, Hopkins lax should send out a tweet or e-mail telling us whether Crawley warms up the goalies or not and we can all bother not to watch if he doesn't. Season's over. If precision in game preparation is really an issue in the Cordish Center - I doubt a single person here is close enough to identify it.

[OCanada]

Geoff Berlin was a midfielder and ended a starting goalie on championship teams i was told. When he made the switch i do not know.

When Cowan played freshman did not. There was no NCAA rule on coaches. The freshmen were coached by Wilson Fewster. Ist teamer HOF i believe. Other coaches on the sidelines were a host of future HOFers.

Away games could be scouted by and reported on by a future HOFer. The NCAA wanted to level and standardize the playing field on coaches.

For years lax fans bemoaned Cowan and his wife Ozzie only had female children. He was drafted by the Colts in FB and was their last cut bcs of positional considerations I think. Also a very good BB player. Reportedly ran 100 yard under 10 i heard