All Things Russia & Ukraine

[DocBarrister]

Not my fault that you think that money falls from the sky to keep those planes you enjoyed, up in the air. It's SPECTACULAR that you think that the rest of Americans didn't have to bust their humps to keep you in the best planes the world had to offer. That money just appeared from Congress, right? GDP is unimportant for militaries....THAT is your assertion? You're not this blockheaded. Just stop it.

You're doggone right I babble about their GDP, and it's spectacular that a man who never set foot in military school told YOU why that money is so important YEARS ago. And YOU didn't listen. How's that Russian Army doing today, OS? Wheels came off that cart in a matter of weeks. Why? Because THEY DON"T HAVE THE MONEY to keep up with American money and arms.

So you complain that we spend the money to develop the best weapons, yet that's what Zelensky is here begging for, because that's what's preventing his defeat. If the Russian military is as bad as you maintain, why do we have to keep all our troops overseas on EU NATO bases ? Why does Ukraine need our expensive weapons if Russia's military is so weak & incompetent ? Do we need to help Taiwan & our Pacific allies defend themselves against China ? ...obtw, some of the aircraft I flew were not that great -- many became smoking holes in the ground or sit at the bottom of some ocean.

Yeah, we need to defend our “Pacific allies” against China. After all, doing so would be in our long term strategic interest and we have mutual defense treaties with some of those nations (e.g., South Korea and Japan).

DocBarrister

[NattyBohChamps04]

I'm expecting Russian leaders to take their people into the 1st world by taking reasonable steps to get there.

I know first, second and third world have become colloquialisms, but this imagined headline cracks me up.

"Putin, Russia apply for NATO membership"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_World

[old salt]

Ukraine ain’t Grenada…..

Ukraine isn't a joke to everyone. Easy to make such jokes when you've never put yourself at risk.

U.S. losses totaled 19 dead and 150 wounded out of about 7,000 people who participated in the invasion. Cuban casualties included 25 dead and 59 wounded among an estimated 600 to 800 fighters. Of up to 1,500 Grenadans who fought, 45 died and 337 were wounded.

Lest we forget, eight Rangers were killed in action while they were outnumbered and spearheading Operation Urgent Fury in Grenada after a daring daylight parachute insertion at ~500ft AGL under heavy enemy ground fire. It was the largest combat parachute assault since 1944.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Ukraine ain’t Grenada…..

Ukraine isn't a joke to everyone. Easy to make such jokes when you've never put yourself at risk.

U.S. losses totaled 19 dead and 150 wounded out of about 7,000 people who participated in the invasion. Cuban casualties included 25 dead and 59 wounded among an estimated 600 to 800 fighters. Of up to 1,500 Grenadans who fought, 45 died and 337 were wounded.

Lest we forget, eight Rangers were killed in action while they were outnumbered and spearheading Operation Urgent Fury in Grenada after a daring daylight parachute insertion at ~500ft AGL under heavy enemy ground fire. It was the largest combat parachute assault since 1944.

You know anyone that still lives there, comrade?

[a fan]

So you complain that we spend the money to develop the best weapons,

No. I've NEVER complained about that, and you know it. What I have complained about----repeatedly----is since wwii, we've send troops and money all over the world, because our leaders haven't been smart enough to pick another path to achieve the same goals. The very thing you're pretending to complain about with Ukraine.

If the Russian military is as bad as you maintain

Never said they were. The SCOREBOARD has said they were. All I said was---for over a decade----is that you need money to do the sorts of things Putin is trying to do. FFS, just the spend on his nuclear weaponry has be in the billions per year. So I PROMISE YOU that these nuclear armaments are in as sorry of shape as the rest of his military is.

why do we have to keep all our troops overseas on EU NATO bases ?

We don't. At some point, you'll take the time to read my posts. You've clearly been ignoring them all this time.

And FFS, after watching his army fall apart, how scared do you suppose Putin is of an engagement with US forces? What at the old men Putin drafted going to do when faced with a dozen US marines with air support, besides cr*p their diapers?

Why does Ukraine need our expensive weapons if Russia's military is so weak & incompetent ?

Now you're just grasping at straws. You thought the Russian army wouldn't even break a sweat on the way to Kiev. You were wrong. It's not that big of a deal.

Do we need to help Taiwan & our Pacific allies defend themselves against China ?

What's the matter? Moving the goalposts again?

Answer: do we have a treaty with any of these nations, ratified by the US Senate? Outside of where we have heavy troops and bases----SKorea and Japan-----No, right? So there's your answer.

...obtw, some of the aircraft I flew were not that great -- many became smoking holes in the ground or sit at the bottom of some ocean.

Tell it to the bloated Pentagon, the only organization on the planet that can't figure out how accounting works, and add and subtract. Can you think of any other firm that size that can't handle an annual audit?

But this is case in point, is it not? If YOU had substandard equipment, take a wild guess as to how sh*tty Russia's gear is using less than 1/10th our GDP.

[old salt]

You thought the Russian army wouldn't even break a sweat on the way to Kiev. You were wrong. It's not that big of a deal.

That's BS. I made no predictions on how the war would progress. I did not anticipate an attempt to take Kyiv.

[NattyBohChamps04]

You thought the Russian army wouldn't even break a sweat on the way to Kiev. You were wrong. It's not that big of a deal.

That's BS. I made no predictions on how the war would progress. I did not anticipate an attempt to take Kyiv.

...

Do you really think, at this stage, that the Ukrainians can keep the Russians from taking Kyiv & then force the Russians to retreat or hold in place ? Do you know what will happen to Kiev if Zellinsky & his govt & military forces don't relocate to the west of the country & declare Kyiv an open city? Kyiv will become Tripoli & Zelinsky will end up like Gaddafi. Ukraine needs a leader not a martyr.

[old salt]

You thought the Russian army wouldn't even break a sweat on the way to Kiev. You were wrong. It's not that big of a deal.

That's BS. I made no predictions on how the war would progress. I did not anticipate an attempt to take Kyiv.

...

Do you really think, at this stage, that the Ukrainians can keep the Russians from taking Kyiv & then force the Russians to retreat or hold in place ? Do you know what will happen to Kiev if Zellinsky & his govt & military forces don't relocate to the west of the country & declare Kyiv an open city? Kyiv will become Tripoli & Zelinsky will end up like Gaddafi. Ukraine needs a leader not a martyr.

That's not a prediction. It's a what-if question when the Russians were already in the suburbs of Kyiv & the US govt was begging Zelensky & his family & govt to evacuate to the west of the country. I did not expect the Russians to make a thrust to take Kyiv because it would over-extend their supply lines, which it did & forced them to eventually retreat. Nonetheless, it was a near thing & a very tenuous time for the Ukrainians.

The Russians are again massing their new troops in Belarus in another apparent attempt to threaten Kyiv. I wonder if it's not a way to continue training their green conscript troops & a way to force the Ukrainians to divert forces from their planned counter offensives in the south.

[MDlaxfan76]

You thought the Russian army wouldn't even break a sweat on the way to Kiev. You were wrong. It's not that big of a deal.

That's BS. I made no predictions on how the war would progress. I did not anticipate an attempt to take Kyiv.

...

Do you really think, at this stage, that the Ukrainians can keep the Russians from taking Kyiv & then force the Russians to retreat or hold in place ? Do you know what will happen to Kiev if Zellinsky & his govt & military forces don't relocate to the west of the country & declare Kyiv an open city? Kyiv will become Tripoli & Zelinsky will end up like Gaddafi. Ukraine needs a leader not a martyr.

That's not a prediction. It's a what-if question when the Russians were already in the suburbs of Kyiv & the US govt was begging Zelensky & his family & govt to evacuate to the west of the country. I did not expect the Russians to make a thrust to take Kyiv because it would over-extend their supply lines, which it did & forced them to eventually retreat. Nonetheless, it was a near thing & a very tenuous time for the Ukrainians.

The Russians are again massing their new troops in Belarus in another apparent attempt to threaten Kyiv. I wonder if it's not a way to continue training their green conscript troops & a way to force the Ukrainians to divert forces from their planned counter offensives in the south.

mmm, it does look remarkably similar to "a prediction"...not an irrational one, but a prediction nonetheless.

[MDlaxfan76]

Ukraine ain’t Grenada…..

Ukraine isn't a joke to everyone. Easy to make such jokes when you've never put yourself at risk.

U.S. losses totaled 19 dead and 150 wounded out of about 7,000 people who participated in the invasion. Cuban casualties included 25 dead and 59 wounded among an estimated 600 to 800 fighters. Of up to 1,500 Grenadans who fought, 45 died and 337 were wounded.

Lest we forget, eight Rangers were killed in action while they were outnumbered and spearheading Operation Urgent Fury in Grenada after a daring daylight parachute insertion at ~500ft AGL under heavy enemy ground fire. It was the largest combat parachute assault since 1944.

Did you take part directly in that operation?

[old salt]

You thought the Russian army wouldn't even break a sweat on the way to Kiev. You were wrong. It's not that big of a deal.

That's BS. I made no predictions on how the war would progress. I did not anticipate an attempt to take Kyiv.

...

Do you really think, at this stage, that the Ukrainians can keep the Russians from taking Kyiv & then force the Russians to retreat or hold in place ? Do you know what will happen to Kiev if Zellinsky & his govt & military forces don't relocate to the west of the country & declare Kyiv an open city? Kyiv will become Tripoli & Zelinsky will end up like Gaddafi. Ukraine needs a leader not a martyr.

That's not a prediction. It's a what-if question when the Russians were already in the suburbs of Kyiv & the US govt was begging Zelensky & his family & govt to evacuate to the west of the country. I did not expect the Russians to make a thrust to take Kyiv because it would over-extend their supply lines, which it did & forced them to eventually retreat. Nonetheless, it was a near thing & a very tenuous time for the Ukrainians.

The Russians are again massing their new troops in Belarus in another apparent attempt to threaten Kyiv. I wonder if it's not a way to continue training their green conscript troops & a way to force the Ukrainians to divert forces from their planned counter offensives in the south.

mmm, it does look remarkably similar to "a prediction"...not an irrational one, but a prediction nonetheless.

It was 2 days into the war. The Russians had already reached the suburbs of Kyiv. It was a howgozit & a question, based on the reality on the ground as to whether Zelensky should stay or go. It was about Zelensky's immediate safety. It was not a prediction on how the war would progress.

[youthathletics]

That's a dck move, MDLax and you know it.

[MDlaxfan76]

That's a dck move, MDLax and you know it.

How so?

Salty's doing just fine at explaining himself...not sure why you're upset about it.

Sure looks like a prediction to me.
Pretty rational one too.
Fortunately, it was wrong.

He's made others along the way. Some pretty accurate, others not so much.
why is that discussion off limits?

or, did you mean the question about being part of the Grenada invasion?
That was a serious question...did it come across otherwise?

[PizzaSnake]

So, an existential struggle for Ukraine and Putin. First one to “give” dies.

Which outcome is more useful to humanity — death of a nation or one man?

[PizzaSnake]

Duplicate.

[youthathletics]

That's a dck move, MDLax and you know it.

How so?
or, did you mean the question about being part of the Grenada invasion?
That was a serious question...did it come across otherwise?

Otherwise. B/c it was followed by OS' comment of 'Easy to make such jokes when you've never put yourself at risk.'

[MDlaxfan76]

That's a dck move, MDLax and you know it.

How so?
or, did you mean the question about being part of the Grenada invasion?
That was a serious question...did it come across otherwise?

Otherwise. B/c it was followed by OS' comment of 'Easy to make such jokes when you've never put yourself at risk.'

That was his comment, not mine.
I was responding to his and TLD's example of Grenada.
TLD said, "Ukraine ain't Grenada" and indeed, it "ain't"...

Ok, there's an implication, you think, that Salty was saying that he did take part?
And, thus, his life was in danger in that operation?

That would certainly make his comment more compelling, but it wasn't why I asked.
It just sounded like perhaps he might have been. I hadn't recalled him saying so before, but I might have missed it.

I don't know his actual service record (you may); I've just picked up tidbits. I hadn't heard (at least as I recall) that he'd ever been in hot warfare, but I could be mistaken...but lots military folks are definitely at risk when operating military equipment, even if only in training or general non-warfare operations. I've assumed he's borne those sorts of risks.

But then again, so are lots of people in their professions, so puffing a chest about such risk in the military has always seemed to me to be unseemly, not to mention disrespectful of others who sacrifice in all sorts of ways as well....but that wasn't why I asked, it was merely curiosity.

Obviously, the casualties in the Grenada operation deserve consideration and I doubt very much that TLD was making light of them.

But there's a big difference in scope and scale.

[old salt]

You thought the Russian army wouldn't even break a sweat on the way to Kiev. You were wrong. It's not that big of a deal.

That's BS. I made no predictions on how the war would progress. I did not anticipate an attempt to take Kyiv.

...

Do you really think, at this stage, that the Ukrainians can keep the Russians from taking Kyiv & then force the Russians to retreat or hold in place ? Do you know what will happen to Kiev if Zellinsky & his govt & military forces don't relocate to the west of the country & declare Kyiv an open city? Kyiv will become Tripoli & Zelinsky will end up like Gaddafi. Ukraine needs a leader not a martyr.

That's not a prediction. It's a what-if question when the Russians were already in the suburbs of Kyiv & the US govt was begging Zelensky & his family & govt to evacuate to the west of the country. I did not expect the Russians to make a thrust to take Kyiv because it would over-extend their supply lines, which it did & forced them to eventually retreat. Nonetheless, it was a near thing & a very tenuous time for the Ukrainians.

The Russians are again massing their new troops in Belarus in another apparent attempt to threaten Kyiv. I wonder if it's not a way to continue training their green conscript troops & a way to force the Ukrainians to divert forces from their planned counter offensives in the south.

mmm, it does look remarkably similar to "a prediction"...not an irrational one, but a prediction nonetheless.

It was 2 days into the war. The Russians had already reached the suburbs of Kyiv. It was a howgozit & a question, based on the reality on the ground as to whether Zelensky should stay or go. It was about Zelensky's immediate safety. It was not a prediction on how the war would progress.

...& we were seeing news reports like this.

Andrea Mitchell, just back from Munich, reports that Kyiv can be taken in 2 days, that Zelensky is surrounded by Quislings & will decamp to Lviv.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Not my fault that you think that money falls from the sky to keep those planes you enjoyed, up in the air. It's SPECTACULAR that you think that the rest of Americans didn't have to bust their humps to keep you in the best planes the world had to offer. That money just appeared from Congress, right? GDP is unimportant for militaries....THAT is your assertion? You're not this blockheaded. Just stop it.

You're doggone right I babble about their GDP, and it's spectacular that a man who never set foot in military school told YOU why that money is so important YEARS ago. And YOU didn't listen. How's that Russian Army doing today, OS? Wheels came off that cart in a matter of weeks. Why? Because THEY DON"T HAVE THE MONEY to keep up with American money and arms.

So you complain that we spend the money to develop the best weapons, yet that's what Zelensky is here begging for, because that's what's preventing his defeat. If the Russian military is as bad as you maintain, why do we have to keep all our troops overseas on EU NATO bases ? Why does Ukraine need our expensive weapons if Russia's military is so weak & incompetent ? Patriots cost $4 million a shot. Do we need to help Taiwan & our Pacific allies defend themselves against China ? ...obtw, some of the aircraft I flew were not that great -- many became smoking holes in the ground or sit at the bottom of some ocean.

Afan may have overestimated the Russian army:

https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/22/europe/r ... index.html

Schoolchildren raise money for socks, mothers buy winter clothes and sleeping bags, community groups collect donations for body armor.

[jhu72]

You thought the Russian army wouldn't even break a sweat on the way to Kiev. You were wrong. It's not that big of a deal.

That's BS. I made no predictions on how the war would progress. I did not anticipate an attempt to take Kyiv.

...

Do you really think, at this stage, that the Ukrainians can keep the Russians from taking Kyiv & then force the Russians to retreat or hold in place ? Do you know what will happen to Kiev if Zellinsky & his govt & military forces don't relocate to the west of the country & declare Kyiv an open city? Kyiv will become Tripoli & Zelinsky will end up like Gaddafi. Ukraine needs a leader not a martyr.

That's not a prediction. It's a what-if question when the Russians were already in the suburbs of Kyiv & the US govt was begging Zelensky & his family & govt to evacuate to the west of the country. I did not expect the Russians to make a thrust to take Kyiv because it would over-extend their supply lines, which it did & forced them to eventually retreat. Nonetheless, it was a near thing & a very tenuous time for the Ukrainians.

The Russians are again massing their new troops in Belarus in another apparent attempt to threaten Kyiv. I wonder if it's not a way to continue training their green conscript troops & a way to force the Ukrainians to divert forces from their planned counter offensives in the south.

... who do you think you are kidding?