All Things Russia & Ukraine

[DocBarrister]

If only great speeches & iconic images won wars.

They do … yet another lesson of history that you have failed to learn.

In the dark early days of the Second World War Churchill had few real weapons. He attacked with words instead. The speeches he delivered then are among the most powerful ever given in the English language. His words were defiant, heroic and human, lightened by flashes of humour. They reached out to everyone in Britain, across Nazi-occupied Europe, and throughout the world. As journalist Beverley Nichols wrote, 'He took the English language and sent it into battle.'

https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/how-chur ... -world-war

DocBarrister

[a fan]

You think Putin is the first malevolent Russian or Soviet leader we've had to deal with ?

Nope.

We were allies with Uncle Joe Stalin ! Gorbachev is the only Russian or Soviet leader we could deal with & trust, ...& how did things end for him ?

Are you kidding? Lived a long, good life, and tried to take the KGB into the 21st century. Picture how much better off Russia would be had men like him run Russia all this time? Instead? Putin and his crew has kept Russia in the 20th century. All that wasted Russian talent, all so Putin and his pals could get a second or third yacht. Gorby gave hope to young Russians. All that has been piddled away by the ex-KGB Kleptocrats, and if you don't understand that, i don't know what to tell you.

Yet you continue to expect Russian leaders to meet us on our terms, then you're surprised that it never happens.

I'm not expecting Russian leaders to meet us on our terms. I'm expecting Russian leaders to take their people into the 1st world by taking reasonable steps to get there. They have utterly failed to do so, by any metric. This attempted imperialism will set Russia back by at least a generation, if not two.

So you babble on about their GDP while they continue to work around us.

Not my fault that you think that money falls from the sky to keep those planes you enjoyed, up in the air. It's SPECTACULAR that you think that the rest of Americans didn't have to bust their humps to keep you in the best planes the world had to offer. That money just appeared from Congress, right? GDP is unimportant for militaries....THAT is your assertion? You're not this blockheaded. Just stop it.

You're doggone right I babble about their GDP, and it's spectacular that a man who never set foot in military school told YOU why that money is so important YEARS ago. And YOU didn't listen. How's that Russian Army doing today, OS? Wheels came off that cart in a matter of weeks. Why? Because THEY DON"T HAVE THE MONEY to keep up with American money and arms.

Geez, you're setting a world record for stubborn. So yep, I'll keep explaining to you why you need money....until you pay attention, and understand why, and stop arguing just to argue. Concede the point that money matters. Lesson learned by Old Salt...and move on.

You'll never understand that we are limited in what we can prevent them from doing, particularly in their part of the world.

Nope. I get it. What I"m telling you is that what "they are doing" with hacking and messing around with Ukraine is a complete waste of time, money, and now? 100,000+ Russian casualties, and counting. And for what? A damnable shame.

[Typical Lax Dad]

If only great speeches & iconic images won wars.

Ukraine will surrender soon. You may get your wish.

[Typical Lax Dad]

[Typical Lax Dad]

[old salt]

You'll never understand that we are limited in what we can prevent them from doing, particularly in their part of the world.

Since we can’t prevent Russia from doing what they want in their part of the world, we can continue to support Ukraine. Freedom isn’t free.

We can prolong the fighting on the blood soaked ground in Bakhmut, where control of the trenches changes hands daily. Bully for us, by jingo !

[old salt]

If only great speeches & iconic images won wars.

They do … yet another lesson of history that you have failed to learn.

In the dark early days of the Second World War Churchill had few real weapons. He attacked with words instead. The speeches he delivered then are among the most powerful ever given in the English language. His words were defiant, heroic and human, lightened by flashes of humour. They reached out to everyone in Britain, across Nazi-occupied Europe, and throughout the world. As journalist Beverley Nichols wrote, 'He took the English language and sent it into battle.'

https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/how-chur ... -world-war

DocBarrister

I'd be a lot more inspired if Gen Milley expressed your confidence & optimism.

[Typical Lax Dad]

You'll never understand that we are limited in what we can prevent them from doing, particularly in their part of the world.

Since we can’t prevent Russia from doing what they want in their part of the world, we can continue to support Ukraine. Freedom isn’t free.

We can prolong the fighting on the blood soaked ground in Bakhmut, where control of the trenches changes hands daily. Bully for us, by jingo !

Freedom ain’t free!!

[old salt]

You think Putin is the first malevolent Russian or Soviet leader we've had to deal with ?

Nope.

We were allies with Uncle Joe Stalin ! Gorbachev is the only Russian or Soviet leader we could deal with & trust, ...& how did things end for him ?

Are you kidding? Lived a long, good life, and tried to take the KGB into the 21st century. Picture how much better off Russia would be had men like him run Russia all this time? Instead? Putin and his crew has kept Russia in the 20th century. All that wasted Russian talent, all so Putin and his pals could get a second or third yacht. Gorby gave hope to young Russians. All that has been piddled away by the ex-KGB Kleptocrats, and if you don't understand that, i don't know what to tell you.

Yet you continue to expect Russian leaders to meet us on our terms, then you're surprised that it never happens.

I'm not expecting Russian leaders to meet us on our terms. I'm expecting Russian leaders to take their people into the 1st world by taking reasonable steps to get there. They have utterly failed to do so, by any metric. This attempted imperialism will set Russia back by at least a generation, if not two.

So you babble on about their GDP while they continue to work around us.

Not my fault that you think that money falls from the sky to keep those planes you enjoyed, up in the air. It's SPECTACULAR that you think that the rest of Americans didn't have to bust their humps to keep you in the best planes the world had to offer. That money just appeared from Congress, right? GDP is unimportant for militaries....THAT is your assertion? You're not this blockheaded. Just stop it.

You're doggone right I babble about their GDP, and it's spectacular that a man who never set foot in military school told YOU why that money is so important YEARS ago. And YOU didn't listen. How's that Russian Army doing today, OS? Wheels came off that cart in a matter of weeks. Why? Because THEY DON"T HAVE THE MONEY to keep up with American money and arms.

Geez, you're setting a world record for stubborn. So yep, I'll keep explaining to you why you need money....until you pay attention, and understand why, and stop arguing just to argue. Concede the point that money matters. Lesson learned by Old Salt...and move on.

You'll never understand that we are limited in what we can prevent them from doing, particularly in their part of the world.

Nope. I get it. What I"m telling you is that what "they are doing" with hacking and messing around with Ukraine is a complete waste of time, money, and now? 100,000+ Russian casualties, and counting. And for what? A damnable shame.

Gorbachev survived, but as an insignificant pariah to his own people. You can continue to fantasize about how you think things should be, & you'll continue to be disappointed.

[old salt]

You'll never understand that we are limited in what we can prevent them from doing, particularly in their part of the world.

Since we can’t prevent Russia from doing what they want in their part of the world, we can continue to support Ukraine. Freedom isn’t free.

We can prolong the fighting on the blood soaked ground in Bakhmut, where control of the trenches changes hands daily. Bully for us, by jingo !

Freedom ain’t free!!

You're repeating yourself. You've become a bot.

[Typical Lax Dad]

You'll never understand that we are limited in what we can prevent them from doing, particularly in their part of the world.

Since we can’t prevent Russia from doing what they want in their part of the world, we can continue to support Ukraine. Freedom isn’t free.

We can prolong the fighting on the blood soaked ground in Bakhmut, where control of the trenches changes hands daily. Bully for us, by jingo !

Freedom ain’t free!!

You're repeating yourself. You've become a bot.

So do you…..

[MDlaxfan76]

Putin was not justified in the invasion. That goes without saying.

obtw -- nobody really thought he'd do it, ...until the blood stocks began showing up in the field hospitals.

wrong, US IC "thought he'd do it".

So did anyone listening closely to Putin.

We all hoped he might blink, but anyone clear-eyed understood the probabilities...just a matter of when.

Likewise, anyone who understood what Putin had been doing with asymmetric, mostly digital, activities to undermine democracies around the world, and who understood that what Putin was doing was weakening resistance to his direct actions to retake "Russian lands", and expand influence to the Mediterranean, by sowing division within democracies who might otherwise oppose these hegemonic ambitions.

Even guys like me knew...and were telling guys like you that this is what Putin was doing and could be anticipated to do more and more aggressively if not punished for it, stopped.

Appeasement with authoritarian aggressors never is the right policy.

MDLF76 ; This is what we both posted immediately pre-invasion. Neither of us predicted invasion.

Alexander Vindman on BBC -- the likelihood of invasion is very high. Won't be like the invasion of 2014. Largest offensive in Europe since WW II. Massive aerial bombardment campaign, long range artillery fires, all sorts of weapons that Russia will bring to bear. The reason is - they want a failed state in Ukraine. The primary goal of Putin is to reincorporate Ukraine back into the Russian sphere of influence.

Vindman proposes moving more NATO forces (including US forces) into the member nations on the E flank.
my input -- we've been preparing bases in Poland & Romania for this contingency.

I couldn't find the BBC clip, but he said much of the same to NPR.
https://www.kbbi.org/npr-news/2022-01-1 ... e-tensions

what's your handicap on whether he's correct?

I have no idea. With Putin, who can accurately predict ?
imho -- it depends on what he thinks the EU will do, specifically Germany.
It would really be helpful if they'd all top off their natural gas reserves via LNG imports
& Germany declared that Nordstream 2 will never open if any further territory in Ukraine is invaded, annexed, or occupied.
I wish there were more reporting & analysis about Russian public opinion.

Thanks...you pay closer attention than I do which is why I asked.

Fingers crossed.

On timing, I wasn't privy to US IC, nor were you.

On inevitability, different matter.
Our assessment of Putin's aggression and ambitions has long been different.

But I respect your investment in paying attention and the seriousness of your thought processes.

[PizzaSnake]

You'll never understand that we are limited in what we can prevent them from doing, particularly in their part of the world.

Since we can’t prevent Russia from doing what they want in their part of the world, we can continue to support Ukraine. Freedom isn’t free.

We can prolong the fighting on the blood soaked ground in Bakhmut, where control of the trenches changes hands daily. Bully for us, by jingo !

"Til there's no Oxygene?

[a fan]

Gorbachev survived, but as an insignificant pariah to his own people. You can continue to fantasize about how you think things should be, & you'll continue to be disappointed.

Fine by me. Where would you rather live? Russia? Or America.

Scoreboard.

I'm telling you that Russia made the wrong choices. And I've been telling you that for over a decade now.

And the chickens have come home to roost for Putin and his choices, and acting like the stereotypical male with a massive inferiority complex that longs for his High School days, when he was big man on campus.

I'm not disappointed. I'm sad. Sad for the Russian people, and everyone who's been hurt by his foolish choices.

[jhu72]

... whoever wrote Zelensky's speech knew what he/she was doing. Great speech.

switched over to watch Faux News near the end, and got to see Tucker Carlson meltdown, trying to sell Zelensky "is fighting against Christianity". Carlson is the dictionary definition of "smacked ass".

The stagecraft was also extraordinary. President Zelensky is, of course, an actor.

The photo of Zelensky standing in front of a Ukrainian flag signed by soldiers on the front lines, held by VP Harris and Speaker Pelosi, and a large American flag in the background will be one of the iconic images of this war.

DocBarrister

... the stagecraft was indeed extraordinary. Great job marketing the alliance. This is what Joe Maga had in mind when talking about making America great again. A popular, heroic, winner of a world leader coming to America to say thank you to the American people. It plays in Bisbee, Abilene, Pella and The Villages. No wonder Carlson was melting down.

[DocBarrister]

If only great speeches & iconic images won wars.

They do … yet another lesson of history that you have failed to learn.

In the dark early days of the Second World War Churchill had few real weapons. He attacked with words instead. The speeches he delivered then are among the most powerful ever given in the English language. His words were defiant, heroic and human, lightened by flashes of humour. They reached out to everyone in Britain, across Nazi-occupied Europe, and throughout the world. As journalist Beverley Nichols wrote, 'He took the English language and sent it into battle.'

https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/how-chur ... -world-war

DocBarrister

I'd be a lot more inspired if Gen Milley expressed your confidence & optimism.

It’s that kind of narrow thinking that emphasizes the importance of maintaining civilian control over the military.

The importance of words and imagery was demonstrated within a day of the invasion.

Unlike his cowardly counterpart in Afghanistan, President Zelensky refused to flee his country and stood his ground. He proclaimed, “The fight is here; I need ammunition, not a ride,” and posted a video showing that he and his top ministers remained in Kyiv.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wgCNKhtZYks

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/02/26/euro ... index.html

Not only did his words and images rally his people, they were crucial in rallying nations all over the world.

Had President Zelensky fled Ukraine, the war would have been lost. Instead, with inspirational imagery and words, Zelensky rallied the United States and the world, and procured the weapons and funds that Ukraine needed.

THAT is the power of leadership, words, and imagery.

DocBarrister

[old salt]

Not my fault that you think that money falls from the sky to keep those planes you enjoyed, up in the air. It's SPECTACULAR that you think that the rest of Americans didn't have to bust their humps to keep you in the best planes the world had to offer. That money just appeared from Congress, right? GDP is unimportant for militaries....THAT is your assertion? You're not this blockheaded. Just stop it.

You're doggone right I babble about their GDP, and it's spectacular that a man who never set foot in military school told YOU why that money is so important YEARS ago. And YOU didn't listen. How's that Russian Army doing today, OS? Wheels came off that cart in a matter of weeks. Why? Because THEY DON"T HAVE THE MONEY to keep up with American money and arms.

So you complain that we spend the money to develop the best weapons, yet that's what Zelensky is here begging for, because that's what's preventing his defeat. If the Russian military is as bad as you maintain, why do we have to keep all our troops overseas on EU NATO bases ? Why does Ukraine need our expensive weapons if Russia's military is so weak & incompetent ? Patriots cost $4 million a shot. Do we need to help Taiwan & our Pacific allies defend themselves against China ? ...obtw, some of the aircraft I flew were not that great -- many became smoking holes in the ground or sit at the bottom of some ocean.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Not my fault that you think that money falls from the sky to keep those planes you enjoyed, up in the air. It's SPECTACULAR that you think that the rest of Americans didn't have to bust their humps to keep you in the best planes the world had to offer. That money just appeared from Congress, right? GDP is unimportant for militaries....THAT is your assertion? You're not this blockheaded. Just stop it.

You're doggone right I babble about their GDP, and it's spectacular that a man who never set foot in military school told YOU why that money is so important YEARS ago. And YOU didn't listen. How's that Russian Army doing today, OS? Wheels came off that cart in a matter of weeks. Why? Because THEY DON"T HAVE THE MONEY to keep up with American money and arms.

So you complain that we spend the money to develop the best weapons, yet that's what Zelensky is here begging for, because that's what's preventing his defeat. If the Russian military is as bad as you maintain, why do we have to keep all our troops overseas on EU NATO bases ? Why does Ukraine need our expensive weapons if Russia's military is so weak & incompetent ? Do we need to help Taiwan & our Pacific allies defend themselves against China ? ...obtw, some of the aircraft I flew were not that great -- many became smoking holes in the ground or sit at the bottom of some ocean.

He doesn’t have to “maintain” that the Russian military is bad….the facts on the ground, as reported, speaks for themselves.

[old salt]

Not my fault that you think that money falls from the sky to keep those planes you enjoyed, up in the air. It's SPECTACULAR that you think that the rest of Americans didn't have to bust their humps to keep you in the best planes the world had to offer. That money just appeared from Congress, right? GDP is unimportant for militaries....THAT is your assertion? You're not this blockheaded. Just stop it.

You're doggone right I babble about their GDP, and it's spectacular that a man who never set foot in military school told YOU why that money is so important YEARS ago. And YOU didn't listen. How's that Russian Army doing today, OS? Wheels came off that cart in a matter of weeks. Why? Because THEY DON"T HAVE THE MONEY to keep up with American money and arms.

So you complain that we spend the money to develop the best weapons, yet that's what Zelensky is here begging for, because that's what's preventing his defeat. If the Russian military is as bad as you maintain, why do we have to keep all our troops overseas on EU NATO bases ? Why does Ukraine need our expensive weapons if Russia's military is so weak & incompetent ? Do we need to help Taiwan & our Pacific allies defend themselves against China ? ...obtw, some of the aircraft I flew were not that great -- many became smoking holes in the ground or sit at the bottom of some ocean.

He doesn’t have to “maintain” that the Russian military is bad….the facts on the ground, as reported, speaks for themselves.

So why haven't the Ukrainians driven them out yet ?

[Typical Lax Dad]

Not my fault that you think that money falls from the sky to keep those planes you enjoyed, up in the air. It's SPECTACULAR that you think that the rest of Americans didn't have to bust their humps to keep you in the best planes the world had to offer. That money just appeared from Congress, right? GDP is unimportant for militaries....THAT is your assertion? You're not this blockheaded. Just stop it.

You're doggone right I babble about their GDP, and it's spectacular that a man who never set foot in military school told YOU why that money is so important YEARS ago. And YOU didn't listen. How's that Russian Army doing today, OS? Wheels came off that cart in a matter of weeks. Why? Because THEY DON"T HAVE THE MONEY to keep up with American money and arms.

So you complain that we spend the money to develop the best weapons, yet that's what Zelensky is here begging for, because that's what's preventing his defeat. If the Russian military is as bad as you maintain, why do we have to keep all our troops overseas on EU NATO bases ? Why does Ukraine need our expensive weapons if Russia's military is so weak & incompetent ? Do we need to help Taiwan & our Pacific allies defend themselves against China ? ...obtw, some of the aircraft I flew were not that great -- many became smoking holes in the ground or sit at the bottom of some ocean.

He doesn’t have to “maintain” that the Russian military is bad….the facts on the ground, as reported, speaks for themselves.

So why haven't the Ukrainians driven them out yet ?

So you think the Russian military hasn’t looked bad? Ukraine ain’t Grenada…..