All Things Russia & Ukraine

[DocBarrister]

No. He's objecting to a disastrous, dangerous war, which we could have been prevented by our not interfering in Ukraine's internal affairs & fomenting 2 revolutions & regime changes, threatening to make Russia's Black Sea Fleet homeport a NATO base.

What in heaven's name makes you think that a single poster here supported Bush's game of Global Cop, mucking with Ukraine? Followed by his brother playing the same game?

Out of everyone here? YOU are the most likely supporter of these games. Gotta keep those sea lanes open, right?

You tend to leap over entire decades in your analysis. I was happy to have survived & helped win the first cold war. I did not want to see another. We did not need to do it twice. Remember glasnost & peristroika, then the reset button ? Bush (the elder) & Baker meant it when they told Gorbachev not one inch further east. Whose brother are you talking about ?

It wasn’t NATO or the United States that was driving the eastward expansion of the Alliance, it was Russia.

More specifically, the complete and utter internal chaos in Russia during the 1990s and early 2000s, the two Chechen Wars, tensions over Kaliningrad … if you’re a small nation like Estonia, Latvia, or Lithuania watching a giant bear acting violently, irrationally, and unpredictably on your doorstep, wouldn’t you want more security guarantees?

If Russia had developed in the 1990s into a peaceful democracy that was a force for stability, calm, and economic prosperity in the region, do you think all of those Eastern European nations would have sought membership in NATO?

Instead, Russia was perceived to be, and actually was, a malignant agent of chaos, atrocities, instability, and war crimes.

After watching the war crimes committed by Russia in Chechnya, what sane Eastern European nation wouldn’t seek NATO membership if that were a possibility?

How can you be so blind in your understanding of history?

DocBarrister

[old salt]

No. He's objecting to a disastrous, dangerous war, which we could have been prevented by our not interfering in Ukraine's internal affairs & fomenting 2 revolutions & regime changes, threatening to make Russia's Black Sea Fleet homeport a NATO base.

What in heaven's name makes you think that a single poster here supported Bush's game of Global Cop, mucking with Ukraine? Followed by his brother playing the same game?

Out of everyone here? YOU are the most likely supporter of these games. Gotta keep those sea lanes open, right?

You tend to leap over entire decades in your analysis. I was happy to have survived & helped win the first cold war. I did not want to see another. We did not need to do it twice. Remember glasnost & peristroika, then the reset button ? Bush (the elder) & Baker meant it when they told Gorbachev not one inch further east. Whose brother are you talking about ?

It wasn’t NATO or the United States that was driving the eastward expansion of the Alliance, it was Russia.

More specifically, the complete and utter internal chaos in Russia during the 1990s and early 2000s, the two Chechen Wars, tensions over Kaliningrad … if you’re a small nation like Estonia, Latvia, or Lithuania watching a giant bear acting violently, irrationally, and unpredictably on your doorstep, wouldn’t you want more security guarantees?

If Russia had developed in the 1990s into a peaceful democracy that was a force for stability, calm, and economic prosperity in the region, do you think all of those Eastern European nations would have sought membership in NATO?

Instead, Russia was perceived to be, and actually was, a malignant agent of chaos, atrocities, instability, and war crimes.

After watching the war crimes committed by Russia in Chechnya, what sane Eastern European nation wouldn’t seek NATO membership if that were a possibility?

How can you be so blind in your understanding of history?

DocBarrister

It was triumphalist US neocons who were driving the eastward expansion of NATO. Former Warsaw Pact members were allowed into NATO before they were militarily capable enough to be effective military allies, & most still are not.

Ukraine joining NATO will not help the Baltic NATO states, it will only increase tensions, as it has.

[old salt]

Putin was not justified in the invasion. That goes without saying.

obtw -- nobody really thought he'd do it, ...until the blood stocks began showing up in the field hospitals.

wrong, US IC "thought he'd do it".

So did anyone listening closely to Putin.

We all hoped he might blink, but anyone clear-eyed understood the probabilities...just a matter of when.

Likewise, anyone who understood what Putin had been doing with asymmetric, mostly digital, activities to undermine democracies around the world, and who understood that what Putin was doing was weakening resistance to his direct actions to retake "Russian lands", and expand influence to the Mediterranean, by sowing division within democracies who might otherwise oppose these hegemonic ambitions.

Even guys like me knew...and were telling guys like you that this is what Putin was doing and could be anticipated to do more and more aggressively if not punished for it, stopped.

Appeasement with authoritarian aggressors never is the right policy.

MDLF76 ; This is what we both posted immediately pre-invasion. Neither of us predicted invasion.

Alexander Vindman on BBC -- the likelihood of invasion is very high. Won't be like the invasion of 2014. Largest offensive in Europe since WW II. Massive aerial bombardment campaign, long range artillery fires, all sorts of weapons that Russia will bring to bear. The reason is - they want a failed state in Ukraine. The primary goal of Putin is to reincorporate Ukraine back into the Russian sphere of influence.

Vindman proposes moving more NATO forces (including US forces) into the member nations on the E flank.
my input -- we've been preparing bases in Poland & Romania for this contingency.

I couldn't find the BBC clip, but he said much of the same to NPR.
https://www.kbbi.org/npr-news/2022-01-1 ... e-tensions

what's your handicap on whether he's correct?

I have no idea. With Putin, who can accurately predict ?
imho -- it depends on what he thinks the EU will do, specifically Germany.
It would really be helpful if they'd all top off their natural gas reserves via LNG imports
& Germany declared that Nordstream 2 will never open if any further territory in Ukraine is invaded, annexed, or occupied.
I wish there were more reporting & analysis about Russian public opinion.

Thanks...you pay closer attention than I do which is why I asked.

Fingers crossed.

[old salt]

I also posted this just prior to the invasion.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business ... story.html

Europe to Russia: Invade Ukraine, and We All Join NATO

By Andreas Kluth | Bloomberg
January 7, 2022 at 9:33 a.m. EST

You may not have been glued to the annual new year’s address by Finland’s president. That’s understandable but unfortunate, because Sauli Niinisto said some remarkable things. His speech should give the European Union an idea, to be discussed not just in Brussels but also — and especially — in the capitals of Sweden, Austria, Ireland, Cyprus and Malta.

These six countries all belong to the EU but are otherwise officially non-aligned, meaning that they are not members of NATO, the transatlantic alliance that kept the peace during the Cold War and currently has to figure out how it would respond to a renewed invasion of Ukraine by Russia.

The idea — inspired by Niinisto’s comments — is this: All six neutral countries, linking arms with the EU and NATO, should turn the ultimatum given by Russian President Vladimir Putin to the West on its head. He’s in effect demanding that NATO stop expanding forever, or else he attacks. Instead, the Finns, Swedes, Austrians, Irish, Maltese and Cypriots should explain that if he does attack, they will join NATO.

...this path may be the only way Europe can keep its seat at the table of great powers and be taken seriously — even by unscrupulous tyrants like Putin.

Hold on. Here we go.

[Brooklyn]

$44 billion more to Zelenskyy. Christmas sure came early for Ukraine.

[get it to x]

$44 billion more to Zelenskyy. Christmas sure came early for Ukraine.

We should have just offered Putin $100 billion to not invade Ukraine. Would have saved a lot of suffering and death.

[a fan]

No. He's objecting to a disastrous, dangerous war, which we could have been prevented by our not interfering in Ukraine's internal affairs & fomenting 2 revolutions & regime changes, threatening to make Russia's Black Sea Fleet homeport a NATO base.

What in heaven's name makes you think that a single poster here supported Bush's game of Global Cop, mucking with Ukraine? Followed by his brother playing the same game?

Out of everyone here? YOU are the most likely supporter of these games. Gotta keep those sea lanes open, right?

You tend to leap over entire decades in your analysis.

Pot, meet kettle. You're acting like the only imperialism we executed in those years was with Russia. Middle East. Africa. We meddled in everything. And you cheered it on, as you very well know. You've told me dozens of times that "we had no choice" but to do these things.

I was happy to have survived & helped win the first cold war. I did not want to see another. We did not need to do it twice.

Yeah, I tried telling you that with regard to China and Trump. You made fun of me.

Remember glasnost & peristroika, then the reset button ?

Yep. And if Russia had a leader no smarter than I am, they would have grabbed that reset button, and grown Russia GDP for the last decade, increasing trade, and not blowing all this pointless money on thing that are immaterial to Russia UNLESS you think it's 1980. The 80's called.

It's why I mocked, correctly, Putins stupid moves in Syria that did NOTHING to move Russia into the 21st century. And now the Russian people are paying the price of 20 years of corrupt, sh*tty leadership by an old man who thinks he can restore Soviet glory with arms that he PLAINLY can't afford.

You're trying to lay this off on anyone but Putin. A rational Russian leader wouldn't give two Sh(ts about NATO after the end of the Cold War. NO ONE is coming into Russia. Only an idiot would think that anyone would do that. It would be like worrying about the US invading Canada.

And if you understand that, you then focus on bringing Russia into the 21st century of economies. Putin has failed on all fronts.

[a fan]

$44 billion more to Zelenskyy. Christmas sure came early for Ukraine.

We should have just offered Putin $100 billion to not invade Ukraine. Would have saved a lot of suffering and death.

That's what Hillary's stupid Reset Button was all about (although it wasn't Putin at the time). The offer was made to become a top trading partner with the US, and to move on from sanctions and recent kerfuffles

Russia declined. Then the hacking started, accomplishing NOTHING for Russia, other than to further irritate American leaders.

Putin's paying the price for years of KBG-type nonsense.....and he's finding out that the current America is even stronger than it was during the Cold War. So much so that some pretty minor arms shipments and some clever training has obliterated the Russian Army.

I wish NONE of this happened. But IMHO, no matter what the US did, Putin would find some stupid "reason" to invade these countries. And the reasoning I giver for this opinion is: look at what Putin has done over the past 20 years. He thinks it's 1980. That's why he played Army man in Syria. That's why he hacked into America's elections via various avenues. None of this stuff helps move Russia forward.

[Typical Lax Dad]

No. He's objecting to a disastrous, dangerous war, which we could have been prevented by our not interfering in Ukraine's internal affairs & fomenting 2 revolutions & regime changes, threatening to make Russia's Black Sea Fleet homeport a NATO base.

What in heaven's name makes you think that a single poster here supported Bush's game of Global Cop, mucking with Ukraine? Followed by his brother playing the same game?

Out of everyone here? YOU are the most likely supporter of these games. Gotta keep those sea lanes open, right?

You tend to leap over entire decades in your analysis.

Pot, meet kettle. You're acting like the only imperialism we executed in those years was with Russia. Middle East. Africa. We meddled in everything. And you cheered it on, as you very well know. You've told me dozens of times that "we had no choice" but to do these things.

I was happy to have survived & helped win the first cold war. I did not want to see another. We did not need to do it twice.

Yeah, I tried telling you that with regard to China and Trump. You made fun of me.

Remember glasnost & peristroika, then the reset button ?

Yep. And if Russia had a leader no smarter than I am, they would have grabbed that reset button, and grown Russia GDP for the last decade, increasing trade, and not blowing all this pointless money on thing that are immaterial to Russia UNLESS you think it's 1980. The 80's called.

It's why I mocked, correctly, Putins stupid moves in Syria that did NOTHING to move Russia into the 21st century. And now the Russian people are paying the price of 20 years of corrupt, sh*tty leadership by an old man who thinks he can restore Soviet glory with arms that he PLAINLY can't afford.

You're trying to lay this off on anyone but Putin. A rational Russian leader wouldn't give two Sh(ts about NATO after the end of the Cold War. NO ONE is coming into Russia. Only an idiot would think that anyone would do that. It would be like worrying about the US invading Canada.

And if you understand that, you then focus on bringing Russia into the 21st century of economies. Putin has failed on all fronts.

But he did say once that the invasion by Putin wasn’t justified. He hasn’t defended him. Zelensky should surrender and the USA should stop its support so that the natural conclusion can be reached.

[njbill]

MTG couldn’t be there tonight. She had an appointment with her fitness instructor.

[DocBarrister]

Great speech from President Zelensky.

Putin is not interested in money … he has embezzled far more than $100 billion from his own people.

Putin has dreamed of transforming himself into Peter the Great and restoring, not the USSR, but the Russian Empire.

That is the malignant narcissist that Ukraine is battling.

That is the murderous dictator whom we must help Ukraine destroy.

DocBarrister

[old salt]

And if Russia had a leader no smarter than I am, they would have grabbed that reset button, and grown Russia GDP for the last decade, increasing trade, and not blowing all this pointless money on thing that are immaterial to Russia UNLESS you think it's 1980. The 80's called.

It's why I mocked, correctly, Putins stupid moves in Syria that did NOTHING to move Russia into the 21st century. And now the Russian people are paying the price of 20 years of corrupt, sh*tty leadership by an old man who thinks he can restore Soviet glory with arms that he PLAINLY can't afford.

You're trying to lay this off on anyone but Putin. A rational Russian leader wouldn't give two Sh(ts about NATO after the end of the Cold War. NO ONE is coming into Russia. Only an idiot would think that anyone would do that. It would be like worrying about the US invading Canada.

And if you understand that, you then focus on bringing Russia into the 21st century of economies. Putin has failed on all fronts.

$44 billion more to Zelenskyy. Christmas sure came early for Ukraine.

We should have just offered Putin $100 billion to not invade Ukraine. Would have saved a lot of suffering and death.

That's what Hillary's stupid Reset Button was all about (although it wasn't Putin at the time). The offer was made to become a top trading partner with the US, and to move on from sanctions and recent kerfuffles

Russia declined. Then the hacking started, accomplishing NOTHING for Russia, other than to further irritate American leaders.

Putin's paying the price for years of KBG-type nonsense.....and he's finding out that the current America is even stronger than it was during the Cold War. So much so that some pretty minor arms shipments and some clever training has obliterated the Russian Army.

I wish NONE of this happened. But IMHO, no matter what the US did, Putin would find some stupid "reason" to invade these countries. And the reasoning I giver for this opinion is: look at what Putin has done over the past 20 years. He thinks it's 1980. That's why he played Army man in Syria. That's why he hacked into America's elections via various avenues. None of this stuff helps move Russia forward.

You think Putin is the first malevolent Russian or Soviet leader we've had to deal with ?
We were allies with Uncle Joe Stalin ! Gorbachev is the only Russian or Soviet leader we could deal with & trust, ...& how did things end for him ?
Yet you continue to expect Russian leaders to meet us on our terms, then you're surprised that it never happens.
So you babble on about their GDP while they continue to work around us.
You'll never understand that we are limited in what we can prevent them from doing, particularly in their part of the world.

[DocBarrister]

And if Russia had a leader no smarter than I am, they would have grabbed that reset button, and grown Russia GDP for the last decade, increasing trade, and not blowing all this pointless money on thing that are immaterial to Russia UNLESS you think it's 1980. The 80's called.

It's why I mocked, correctly, Putins stupid moves in Syria that did NOTHING to move Russia into the 21st century. And now the Russian people are paying the price of 20 years of corrupt, sh*tty leadership by an old man who thinks he can restore Soviet glory with arms that he PLAINLY can't afford.

You're trying to lay this off on anyone but Putin. A rational Russian leader wouldn't give two Sh(ts about NATO after the end of the Cold War. NO ONE is coming into Russia. Only an idiot would think that anyone would do that. It would be like worrying about the US invading Canada.

And if you understand that, you then focus on bringing Russia into the 21st century of economies. Putin has failed on all fronts.

$44 billion more to Zelenskyy. Christmas sure came early for Ukraine.

We should have just offered Putin $100 billion to not invade Ukraine. Would have saved a lot of suffering and death.

That's what Hillary's stupid Reset Button was all about (although it wasn't Putin at the time). The offer was made to become a top trading partner with the US, and to move on from sanctions and recent kerfuffles

Russia declined. Then the hacking started, accomplishing NOTHING for Russia, other than to further irritate American leaders.

Putin's paying the price for years of KBG-type nonsense.....and he's finding out that the current America is even stronger than it was during the Cold War. So much so that some pretty minor arms shipments and some clever training has obliterated the Russian Army.

I wish NONE of this happened. But IMHO, no matter what the US did, Putin would find some stupid "reason" to invade these countries. And the reasoning I giver for this opinion is: look at what Putin has done over the past 20 years. He thinks it's 1980. That's why he played Army man in Syria. That's why he hacked into America's elections via various avenues. None of this stuff helps move Russia forward.

You think Putin is the first malevolent Russian or Soviet leader we've had to deal with ?
We were allies with Uncle Joe Stalin ! Gorbachev is the only Russian or Soviet leader we could deal with & trust, ...& how did things end for him ?
Yet you continue to expect Russian leaders to meet us on our terms, then you're surprised that it never happens.
So you babble on about their GDP while they continue to work around us.
You'll never understand that we are limited in what we can prevent them from doing, particularly in their part of the world.

You are correct … Putin and Russia cannot be trusted. That is why we must help Ukraine bring Russia to its knees.

DocBarrister

[jhu72]

... whoever wrote Zelensky's speech knew what he/she was doing. Great speech.

switched over to watch Faux News near the end, and got to see Tucker Carlson meltdown, trying to sell Zelensky "is fighting against Christianity". Carlson is the dictionary definition of "smacked ass".

[PizzaSnake]

And if Russia had a leader no smarter than I am, they would have grabbed that reset button, and grown Russia GDP for the last decade, increasing trade, and not blowing all this pointless money on thing that are immaterial to Russia UNLESS you think it's 1980. The 80's called.

It's why I mocked, correctly, Putins stupid moves in Syria that did NOTHING to move Russia into the 21st century. And now the Russian people are paying the price of 20 years of corrupt, sh*tty leadership by an old man who thinks he can restore Soviet glory with arms that he PLAINLY can't afford.

You're trying to lay this off on anyone but Putin. A rational Russian leader wouldn't give two Sh(ts about NATO after the end of the Cold War. NO ONE is coming into Russia. Only an idiot would think that anyone would do that. It would be like worrying about the US invading Canada.

And if you understand that, you then focus on bringing Russia into the 21st century of economies. Putin has failed on all fronts.

$44 billion more to Zelenskyy. Christmas sure came early for Ukraine.

We should have just offered Putin $100 billion to not invade Ukraine. Would have saved a lot of suffering and death.

That's what Hillary's stupid Reset Button was all about (although it wasn't Putin at the time). The offer was made to become a top trading partner with the US, and to move on from sanctions and recent kerfuffles

Russia declined. Then the hacking started, accomplishing NOTHING for Russia, other than to further irritate American leaders.

Putin's paying the price for years of KBG-type nonsense.....and he's finding out that the current America is even stronger than it was during the Cold War. So much so that some pretty minor arms shipments and some clever training has obliterated the Russian Army.

I wish NONE of this happened. But IMHO, no matter what the US did, Putin would find some stupid "reason" to invade these countries. And the reasoning I giver for this opinion is: look at what Putin has done over the past 20 years. He thinks it's 1980. That's why he played Army man in Syria. That's why he hacked into America's elections via various avenues. None of this stuff helps move Russia forward.

You think Putin is the first malevolent Russian or Soviet leader we've had to deal with ?
We were allies with Uncle Joe Stalin ! Gorbachev is the only Russian or Soviet leader we could deal with & trust, ...& how did things end for him ?
Yet you continue to expect Russian leaders to meet us on our terms, then you're surprised that it never happens.
So you babble on about their GDP while they continue to work around us.
You'll never understand that we are limited in what we can prevent them from doing, particularly in their part of the world.

Bet if we gave them back their nukes that would straighten old Vlad out quick like. A final armament, so to speak.

[Typical Lax Dad]

And if Russia had a leader no smarter than I am, they would have grabbed that reset button, and grown Russia GDP for the last decade, increasing trade, and not blowing all this pointless money on thing that are immaterial to Russia UNLESS you think it's 1980. The 80's called.

It's why I mocked, correctly, Putins stupid moves in Syria that did NOTHING to move Russia into the 21st century. And now the Russian people are paying the price of 20 years of corrupt, sh*tty leadership by an old man who thinks he can restore Soviet glory with arms that he PLAINLY can't afford.

You're trying to lay this off on anyone but Putin. A rational Russian leader wouldn't give two Sh(ts about NATO after the end of the Cold War. NO ONE is coming into Russia. Only an idiot would think that anyone would do that. It would be like worrying about the US invading Canada.

And if you understand that, you then focus on bringing Russia into the 21st century of economies. Putin has failed on all fronts.

$44 billion more to Zelenskyy. Christmas sure came early for Ukraine.

We should have just offered Putin $100 billion to not invade Ukraine. Would have saved a lot of suffering and death.

That's what Hillary's stupid Reset Button was all about (although it wasn't Putin at the time). The offer was made to become a top trading partner with the US, and to move on from sanctions and recent kerfuffles

Russia declined. Then the hacking started, accomplishing NOTHING for Russia, other than to further irritate American leaders.

Putin's paying the price for years of KBG-type nonsense.....and he's finding out that the current America is even stronger than it was during the Cold War. So much so that some pretty minor arms shipments and some clever training has obliterated the Russian Army.

I wish NONE of this happened. But IMHO, no matter what the US did, Putin would find some stupid "reason" to invade these countries. And the reasoning I giver for this opinion is: look at what Putin has done over the past 20 years. He thinks it's 1980. That's why he played Army man in Syria. That's why he hacked into America's elections via various avenues. None of this stuff helps move Russia forward.

You think Putin is the first malevolent Russian or Soviet leader we've had to deal with ?
We were allies with Uncle Joe Stalin ! Gorbachev is the only Russian or Soviet leader we could deal with & trust, ...& how did things end for him ?
Yet you continue to expect Russian leaders to meet us on our terms, then you're surprised that it never happens.
So you babble on about their GDP while they continue to work around us.
You'll never understand that we are limited in what we can prevent them from doing, particularly in their part of the world.

Since we can’t prevent Russia from doing what they want in their part of the world, we can continue to support Ukraine. Freedom isn’t free.

[DocBarrister]

... whoever wrote Zelensky's speech knew what he/she was doing. Great speech.

switched over to watch Faux News near the end, and got to see Tucker Carlson meltdown, trying to sell Zelensky "is fighting against Christianity". Carlson is the dictionary definition of "smacked ass".

The stagecraft was also extraordinary. President Zelensky is, of course, an actor.

The photo of Zelensky standing in front of a Ukrainian flag signed by soldiers on the front lines, held by VP Harris and Speaker Pelosi, and a large American flag in the background will be one of the iconic images of this war.

DocBarrister

[Brooklyn]

$44 billion more to Zelenskyy. Christmas sure came early for Ukraine.

We should have just offered Putin $100 billion to not invade Ukraine. Would have saved a lot of suffering and death.

Geez, why hadn't I thought of that? All this shtt could have been prevented with a handout. But then, some welfare queens in the military industrial complex would have missed out on some war profits:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDbzqdfUemQ

[old salt]

If only great speeches & iconic images won wars.

[PizzaSnake]

If only great speeches & iconic images won wars.