Inside Lacrosse Top 50

[njbill]

Yup. It’s idiotic to suggest that the draw isn’t important. Does the team that wins the draw win the game every time? No, but I’ll bet dollars to donuts they win the game a large percentage of the time.

Every single coach would rather win the draw than not. And 100 of 100 coaches would take Maddie Jenner on their team. Who did KAH pick to be her center when she was putting together her U19 team last time?

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

"The next time you’re watching a game and a member of the broadcast team says something along the lines of:

“Well, you know how it is, a hard and fast rule in lacrosse, we say it all the time—you win the battle of the draws, you win the game.”

Take it with a grain of salt. It’s simply not true.

For the most part, yes, you win the draws, you win the game; but there are a number of factors that aren’t considered with that lazy blanket statement: turnovers--both caused and self inflicted; penalties; saves by the netminder; time running out, etc. The most recent example of when “Win the Draws, Win the Game” failed was in the BC/Maryland semifinal. The Terps had 23 draw controls to BC’s 14 by games end. BC won 17-16. Maryland outdrew BC 9-4 in the 4th quarter, but BC won the game.

Another example occurred in last year‘s NCAA quarterfinal

Draw controls 12-7 Syracuse
Final score 15-4 Northwestern

Another game where the draw controls didn’t end up meaning jack.

And perhaps the Granddaddy of ‘em all was in 2020 when Johns Hopkins beat Georgetown 15-14,
yet was outdrawn by the Hoyas 26-4. Nothing wrong with your eyeballs—26 to 4. You could look it up."

As for Maddie Jenner’s dominance in the draw circle in '22 and how it failed to help her team--here are some examples for the point I was making:

In Duke’s 16-14 loss to Syracuse, Duke won the draw control battle 21-14 with Jenner winning 10.

In Duke’s 18-4 embarrassment at the hands of the eventual national champs, Duke won the draw control battle 16-9 with Jenner collecting 11.

Jenner won 7 and 4 draw controls in their two post season losses to Notre Dame (19-11) and Maryland (19-6) respectively. Jenner was of absolutely no significance in either of those beatdowns.

That’s why draw controls and draw control specialists are overrated.


"Win the Draws, Win the Game? As my brother used to say in his drawn out singsong way, “It aaaain’t necessarily soooooo.”"

[RollTheCrease]

Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. I will stick with my position and you are certainly entitled to yours. But I would wager if we played 10 times and the draw advantages were as great as you say, you may win one in ten, but I will win 9 of 10. I’ll go a step further and say half of my wins would not be close with those large draw differences.

[Bart]

"The next time you’re watching a game and a member of the broadcast team says something along the lines of:

“Well, you know how it is, a hard and fast rule in lacrosse, we say it all the time—you win the battle of the draws, you win the game.”

Take it with a grain of salt. It’s simply not true.

For the most part, yes, you win the draws, you win the game; but there are a number of factors that aren’t considered with that lazy blanket statement: turnovers--both caused and self inflicted; penalties; saves by the netminder; time running out, etc. The most recent example of when “Win the Draws, Win the Game” failed was in the BC/Maryland semifinal. The Terps had 23 draw controls to BC’s 14 by games end. BC won 17-16. Maryland outdrew BC 9-4 in the 4th quarter, but BC won the game.

Another example occurred in last year‘s NCAA quarterfinal

Draw controls 12-7 Syracuse
Final score 15-4 Northwestern

Another game where the draw controls didn’t end up meaning jack.

And perhaps the Granddaddy of ‘em all was in 2020 when Johns Hopkins beat Georgetown 15-14,
yet was outdrawn by the Hoyas 26-4. Nothing wrong with your eyeballs—26 to 4. You could look it up."

As for Maddie Jenner’s dominance in the draw circle in '22 and how it failed to help her team--here are some examples for the point I was making:

In Duke’s 16-14 loss to Syracuse, Duke won the draw control battle 21-14 with Jenner winning 10.

In Duke’s 18-4 embarrassment at the hands of the eventual national champs, Duke won the draw control battle 16-9 with Jenner collecting 11.

Jenner won 7 and 4 draw controls in their two post season losses to Notre Dame (19-11) and Maryland (19-6) respectively. Jenner was of absolutely no significance in either of those beatdowns.

That’s why draw controls and draw control specialists are overrated.


"Win the Draws, Win the Game? As my brother used to say in his drawn out singsong way, “It aaaain’t necessarily soooooo.”"

meh..if only all shots were goals.

So in the final last year BC vs UNC here is a breakdown of the first plays after a draw from the box score
Q1
Draw bc-shot bc
draw unc-shot unc
draw bc-fp bc
draw bc-shot bc
draw unc-goal unc
draw bc-tunover bc
draw unc-goal unc
draw bc-shot bc
Q2
draw unc-shot unc
draw unc-shot unc
draw bc-fps bc
draw bc-shot bc
draw unc-shot unc
draw bc-shot bc
Q3
draw bc-to bc
draw bc-to bc
draw unc-shot unc
draw unc-shot unc
Q4
draw unc-shot unc
draw unc-to unc
draw bc-shot bc
draw unc-shot unc
draw bc-fps shot bc
draw bc-shot bc
draw unc-run out clock

UNC won the DC's by 1 overall..perhaps the most important was the last. But how many DC's ended up in a shot? How many coaches would not want that? To say DC's are not relevant seems a bit simplistic. More DC's, more shots.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

As I very clearly stated in my post above:

"For the most part, yes, you win the draws, you win the game..."

My point is--it is not a hard and fast rule. It is not ironclad. There are always exceptions and it should always be stated with that caveat.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

As I very clearly stated in my post above:

"For the most part, yes, you win the draws, you win the game..."

My point is--it is not a hard and fast rule. It is not ironclad. There are always exceptions and it should always be stated with that caveat.

https://fanlax.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=416422#p416422

[momlax24x7]

M Jenner tapped out in several big games last season like a wrestler. She was totally dominated by her opponent in the circle and was ineffective. She has marginal lax skills beyond her draw skills so offers little value to her team on a bad draw day. Her top 50 ranking misses the mark. Top 25 at best.

[DMac]

To say DC's are not relevant seems a bit simplistic. More DC's, more shots.

Don't think anyone is saying draws/face offs are not relevant but I do believe DC specialist/FOGOs are highly overrated in their value and draw/face off stats can be very deceiving with regards to wins and losses. Brought this up many years back and naturally initially received a lot push back on it.
1. Stats wise a draw/face off win can amount to about a one second possession, goes in the books as a win but it was essentially a meaningless win. This is not at all uncommon.
2. Will use the same example I've used many times: Team A wins the draw, gets a shot, save is made, ball goes the other way. Team B gets a shot on that possession, save is made, Team A comes back and scores on that possession. Do that three times and the score is 3-0. Team A has three draw wins and three goals. Stats people will look at that and say, see, draws/face offs wins games. Fact of the matter is none of the draw/face offs had anything to do with the three goals. Yes, 100% of the time I would rather win the draw/face off than lose it but I don't put nearly the stock in wins at the circle/X as a whole lot of other folks do. Have seen way too many games when the team that won the draw/face off battle lost the game. Complete teams win games, gotta have it all, face offs/draws are just one part of the game and not all that much more important than the other parts. JMHO.

[Bart]

To say DC's are not relevant seems a bit simplistic. More DC's, more shots.

Don't think anyone is saying draws/face offs are not relevant but I do believe DC specialist/FOGOs are highly overrated in their value and draw/face off stats can be very deceiving with regards to wins and losses. Brought this up many years back and naturally initially received a lot push back on it.
1. Stats wise a draw/face off win can amount to about a one second possession, goes in the books as a win but it was essentially a meaningless win. This is not at all uncommon.
2. Will use the same example I've used many times: Team A wins the draw, gets a shot, save is made, ball goes the other way. Team B gets a shot on that possession, save is made, Team A comes back and scores on that possession. Do that three times and the score is 3-0. Team A has three draw wins and three goals. Stats people will look at that and say, see, draws/face offs wins games. Fact of the matter is none of the draw/face offs had anything to do with the three goals. Yes, 100% of the time I would rather win the draw/face off than lose it but I don't put nearly the stock in wins at the circle/X as a whole lot of other folks do. Have seen way too many games when the team that won the draw/face off battle lost the game. Complete teams win games, gotta have it all, face offs/draws are just one part of the game and not all that much more important than the other parts. JMHO.

Sorry but disagree. It really is not that difficult. Winning the draw leads to more chances. Some connect and some do not. That is it. Find me one coach who does not want a dominant draw person/team.

[Dr. Tact]

M Jenner tapped out in several big games last season like a wrestler. She was totally dominated by her opponent in the circle and was ineffective. She has marginal lax skills beyond her draw skills so offers little value to her team on a bad draw day. Her top 50 ranking misses the mark. Top 25 at best.

[DMac]

To say DC's are not relevant seems a bit simplistic. More DC's, more shots.

Don't think anyone is saying draws/face offs are not relevant but I do believe DC specialist/FOGOs are highly overrated in their value and draw/face off stats can be very deceiving with regards to wins and losses. Brought this up many years back and naturally initially received a lot push back on it.
1. Stats wise a draw/face off win can amount to about a one second possession, goes in the books as a win but it was essentially a meaningless win. This is not at all uncommon.
2. Will use the same example I've used many times: Team A wins the draw, gets a shot, save is made, ball goes the other way. Team B gets a shot on that possession, save is made, Team A comes back and scores on that possession. Do that three times and the score is 3-0. Team A has three draw wins and three goals. Stats people will look at that and say, see, draws/face offs wins games. Fact of the matter is none of the draw/face offs had anything to do with the three goals. Yes, 100% of the time I would rather win the draw/face off than lose it but I don't put nearly the stock in wins at the circle/X as a whole lot of other folks do. Have seen way too many games when the team that won the draw/face off battle lost the game. Complete teams win games, gotta have it all, face offs/draws are just one part of the game and not all that much more important than the other parts. JMHO.

Sorry but disagree. It really is not that difficult. Winning the draw leads to more chances. Some connect and some do not. That is it. Find me one coach who does not want a dominant draw person/team.

Yup, I get it....those chances are dependent upon many other factors though.'
Gotta go to the mlax side, T.D. Irelan and T. Baptise, two dominant FOGOs, arguably the best(s) ever.
T.D. had no titles while playing on three different teams, Baptise had one. If face offs wins games these
two should have had four apiece (gotta disregard the fact that they both played at the same time there).

[Bart]

To say DC's are not relevant seems a bit simplistic. More DC's, more shots.

Don't think anyone is saying draws/face offs are not relevant but I do believe DC specialist/FOGOs are highly overrated in their value and draw/face off stats can be very deceiving with regards to wins and losses. Brought this up many years back and naturally initially received a lot push back on it.
1. Stats wise a draw/face off win can amount to about a one second possession, goes in the books as a win but it was essentially a meaningless win. This is not at all uncommon.
2. Will use the same example I've used many times: Team A wins the draw, gets a shot, save is made, ball goes the other way. Team B gets a shot on that possession, save is made, Team A comes back and scores on that possession. Do that three times and the score is 3-0. Team A has three draw wins and three goals. Stats people will look at that and say, see, draws/face offs wins games. Fact of the matter is none of the draw/face offs had anything to do with the three goals. Yes, 100% of the time I would rather win the draw/face off than lose it but I don't put nearly the stock in wins at the circle/X as a whole lot of other folks do. Have seen way too many games when the team that won the draw/face off battle lost the game. Complete teams win games, gotta have it all, face offs/draws are just one part of the game and not all that much more important than the other parts. JMHO.

Sorry but disagree. It really is not that difficult. Winning the draw leads to more chances. Some connect and some do not. That is it. Find me one coach who does not want a dominant draw person/team.

Yup, I get it....those chances are dependent upon many other factors though.'
Gotta go to the mlax side, T.D. Irelan and T. Baptise, two dominant FOGOs, arguably the best(s) ever.
T.D. had no titles while playing on three different teams, Baptise had one. If face offs wins games these
two should have had four apiece (gotta disregard the fact that they both played at the same time there).

Still going to disagree. The net worth on a single elimination tournament. But lets take a look at both Ireland and Baptise
Irland lost in NCAA quarters and Semifinals at albany and finals at yale then in first round at denver....all teams played on made the Dance and except for one year went more than one game
Baptise won as freshman, lost in first round soph then lost in semi finals and quarters. All four years made the NCAA.

No loosing seasons with these two. I do not judge the importance on the performance in a single elimination tournament. We will probably continue to disagree with this but I will change my mind if you can find me 1....just 1 coach who would not want a dominant draw person. One coach who does not think her/his chances to win games are better with a dominant draw specialist. If you can do this I will quickly fall in line.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

M Jenner tapped out in several big games last season like a wrestler. She was totally dominated by her opponent in the circle and was ineffective. She has marginal lax skills beyond her draw skills so offers little value to her team on a bad draw day. Her top 50 ranking misses the mark. Top 25 at best.

Stand-up-and-cheer post, momlax. Love it. Telling it like it is with no nauseatingly deferential apologetic sugarcoating. Outstanding! And I agree with you on MJ 100%.

[DMac]

To say DC's are not relevant seems a bit simplistic. More DC's, more shots.

Don't think anyone is saying draws/face offs are not relevant but I do believe DC specialist/FOGOs are highly overrated in their value and draw/face off stats can be very deceiving with regards to wins and losses. Brought this up many years back and naturally initially received a lot push back on it.
1. Stats wise a draw/face off win can amount to about a one second possession, goes in the books as a win but it was essentially a meaningless win. This is not at all uncommon.
2. Will use the same example I've used many times: Team A wins the draw, gets a shot, save is made, ball goes the other way. Team B gets a shot on that possession, save is made, Team A comes back and scores on that possession. Do that three times and the score is 3-0. Team A has three draw wins and three goals. Stats people will look at that and say, see, draws/face offs wins games. Fact of the matter is none of the draw/face offs had anything to do with the three goals. Yes, 100% of the time I would rather win the draw/face off than lose it but I don't put nearly the stock in wins at the circle/X as a whole lot of other folks do. Have seen way too many games when the team that won the draw/face off battle lost the game. Complete teams win games, gotta have it all, face offs/draws are just one part of the game and not all that much more important than the other parts. JMHO.

Sorry but disagree. It really is not that difficult. Winning the draw leads to more chances. Some connect and some do not. That is it. Find me one coach who does not want a dominant draw person/team.

Yup, I get it....those chances are dependent upon many other factors though.'
Gotta go to the mlax side, T.D. Irelan and T. Baptise, two dominant FOGOs, arguably the best(s) ever.
T.D. had no titles while playing on three different teams, Baptise had one. If face offs wins games these
two should have had four apiece (gotta disregard the fact that they both played at the same time there).

Still going to disagree. The net worth on a single elimination tournament. But lets take a look at both Ireland and Baptise
Irland lost in NCAA quarters and Semifinals at albany and finals at yale then in first round at denver....all teams played on made the Dance and except for one year went more than one game
Baptise won as freshman, lost in first round soph then lost in semi finals and quarters. All four years made the NCAA.

No loosing seasons with these two. I do not judge the importance on the performance in a single elimination tournament. We will probably continue to disagree with this but I will change my mind if you can find me 1....just 1 coach who would not want a dominant draw person. One coach who does not think her/his chances to win games are better with a dominant draw specialist. If you can do this I will quickly fall in line.

.....and of course, I will find none. As noted, 100% of the time I would rather win the draw/face off than lose it.
This all started with me years back when I constantly heard, FACE OFFS WINS GAMES, FACE OFFS WINS GAMES, FACE OFFS WINS GAMES!!!! That's simply not true, GBs and saves play equally as big a role in the W factor...plenty of other factors too. What a team does with that face off win is what matters, I call it a positive possession...goal. Positive possessions as a result of the draw wins games. However you put it, and in any language, what's good is good though, and it's good to win the face off/draw.
In any language what's good is good, exhibit A:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OflpWQC ... rt_radio=1

[njbill]

M Jenner tapped out in several big games last season like a wrestler. She was totally dominated by her opponent in the circle and was ineffective. She has marginal lax skills beyond her draw skills so offers little value to her team on a bad draw day. Her top 50 ranking misses the mark. Top 25 at best.

Congratulations mom. In one post you demonstrated you know little to nothing about wrestling or lacrosse.

No, Maddie Jenner never tapped out. Ever. Not sure you even know what the expression means.

And, no, no one has ever “totally dominated” her at the draw for an entire game at any level ever. It’s as simple as that.

Has she been beaten on the draw from time to time? Of course. Have there even been stretches of games where the other center or team has won the draw consistently? Sure. Have there been games when an opposing player has won more draws than she has? Yes though very few. Have there been games in which the other team has won more draws than her team has? Yes (again, very few). Has she on occasion been taken out for a few draws here or there? Yes.

But she has never been “totally dominated” in a full game. If you disagree, post a full game video.

Every single college coach would want her on their team to take the draw. Every. Single. One.

Suggest you watch a little lacrosse and learn a bit about the game before you post here again.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

M Jenner tapped out in several big games last season like a wrestler. She was totally dominated by her opponent in the circle and was ineffective. She has marginal lax skills beyond her draw skills so offers little value to her team on a bad draw day. Her top 50 ranking misses the mark. Top 25 at best.

No need to second guess yourself, momlax—In the 19-6 demolition job Maryland put on Duke to bounce them out of the NCAA’s, Jenner had 4 draw controls, no goals, no assists, no nothing. Not sure her 7 draws vs Notre Dame meant much in the 19-11 blowout loss either. Maybe saying she tapped out was a tad strong but so what--we all have our opinions and I agree with your original post. And please--feel free to post here anytime. Any new voice is a welcome voice at this address.

And you might do well to consider this as a mindset to have when you post here:



Sometimes you have to come on this forum with your dukes up. Just giving you a heads up.

[Lax101]

Breaking news: Maddie Jenner is an amazing draw girl. One of the best ever. Just about every team in D1 would love to have her on their roster. In any toss up game she gives the edge to Duke because the game is all about possession. That doesnt mean they will win all those toss up games but when they dont that falls on the offense or perhaps coaching. I also think she is a better offensive player then people realize and Duke should use her and her height advantage more on the offensive end. I dont see how you cant have her in the top 10. She has a bigger impact on the game then just about any defender in my opinion.

[Dr. Tact]

M Jenner tapped out in several big games last season like a wrestler. She was totally dominated by her opponent in the circle and was ineffective. She has marginal lax skills beyond her draw skills so offers little value to her team on a bad draw day. Her top 50 ranking misses the mark. Top 25 at best.

Congratulations mom. In one post you demonstrated you know little to nothing about wrestling or lacrosse.

No, Maddie Jenner never tapped out. Ever. Not sure you even know what the expression means.

And, no, no one has ever “totally dominated” her at the draw for an entire game at any level ever. It’s as simple as that.

Has she been beaten on the draw from time to time? Of course. Have there even been stretches of games where the other center or team has won the draw consistently? Sure. Have there been games when an opposing player has won more draws than she has? Yes though very few. Have there been games in which the other team has won more draws than her team has? Yes (again, very few). Has she on occasion been taken out for a few draws here or there? Yes.

But she has never been “totally dominated” in a full game. If you disagree, post a full game video.

Every single college coach would want her on their team to take the draw. Every. Single. One.

Suggest you watch a little lacrosse and learn a bit about the game before you post here again.

While i agree that every coach would want her draws skills. I think the best use of her would be as a fogo (like her first seasons). She is not a dynamic middie and takes the place of one who could be.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

While i agree that every coach would want her draws skills. I think the best use of her would be as a fogo (like her first seasons). She is not a dynamic middie and takes the place of one who could be.

Well said, doc.

[Lax101]

Terribly said. Anybody who watches the game should know she does the draw and plays attack. She does not play defense. She is a Top 10 player with just her amazing draw skills. Anything you get on offense is a bonus.