January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

[a fan]

You make my point. Even if we end up finding out that Trump tried to send an armed private army into the Capital Building to kill off Pelosi and Pence, the bottom line is - he failed. The system worked as intended. Power was transferred to the winner of the election. I am not saying no harm no foul. I am saying that the SYSTEM worked.

Any sane person understands that at no point were we in danger of Trump succeeding in over-turning the election results.

I think you might want to read up on all the stuff Trump tried to do. Having one or two low level, no name officials being the ONLY thing standing between the peaceful transition of power, and complete chaos is terrifying to this American voter.

Yep, you're right, they didn't cave.

But what's your answer if this happens again, and these one or two State officials DO cave, casting doubt on who actually won the election.

Personally, I don't want the entire US empire hinging on the moral fiber of some guy named "Steve". Pretty obvious Trump found that this system isn't as filled with checks and balances as we'd all like to think exists in our system. It can come down to one man's honesty.

[Kismet]

Would be interested in your view of the alleged "patriots" who were convicted in DC court today for seditious conspiracy and obstruction of a federal proceeding? Nothing major, just the certification of a presidential election and a peaceful transfer of power. Lenin (the ultimate marxist) would be spinning in his grave if he wasn't uber-embalmed and on display in glass to this very day at the Kremlin.

They broke the law - the answer is easy, put them in jail where they belong.

Did you think I would give a different answer?

what makes me quite happy is that in the end we had a (relatively*) peaceful transition of power and those morons got what was coming - providing proof of the vibrancy of our electoral process.

* while the "protest" was not particularly peaceful, the success of the peaceful transition of power within our multi-branch style of government was never in doubt to anyone immune to the hysteria of either ProudBoy Bravado or left-wing fainting spells....

Thx . I was just inquiring as to why you omitted them in your rant about marxists and socialists.

[old salt]

But let's not pretend that the GOP, led by Trump, hasn't become dominated by the white nationalist, christian nationalist movement to tremendously ill effect. Election denialism has become a tool for this cult. And two-thirds of the GOP are on board...that ain't "all" but it's domination.

I don't think Trump is the sole problem, I think all the weasels who have bowed before him are fully complicit.

imho -- you are exaggerating any ill effect & misrepresenting the patriotism of millions of white christians.

As a white christian I can agree there are many of us who are fulsomely patriotic. and sure, there are millions like me.

But I ain't a christian nationalist nor a white nationalist, nor the overlap.
And I'm not an election denier, nor am I going to make up, repeat, support stupidly false arguments about voting insecurity.

I think all of that is gross and immensely damaging to the country I love.
And millions of white christians, like me, agree.

But we're not the MAGA cult.

That is one more place they apply the "wedge". It creates all sorts of points of fissure:

First, let's note that there are a lot of very good and reasonable people who are a) white, b) Christian, and c) love their nation.

Let's also acknowledge that there are (abhorrent) people who are "white nationalists" in the way that the left uses the term. Hateful bigots who promote an agenda based on race separation. I believe that these people represent a very, very small percentage of Americans, but I think there are more now than there were 20 years ago for a few reasons.

There are politicians on both sides of the aisle who benefit from racism. The ones who appeal to the bigots I described above and the ones who run around calling white men racists like a spurned pilgrim wife looking for witches in every woman that attracts her husband's eye.

But think about why the term nationalist is now being used as a slur? According to the New Oxford American dictionary nationalist means: i) a person who advocates political independence for a country; b) a person with strong patriotic feelings, especially one who believes in the superiority of their country over others. Seems pretty benign.

Undermining the meaning of words is a game marxists and post-modernists love to play as a way of chipping away at the foundation of society. It is done on purpose. The definition of nationalist generally strikes me as including good things - as long as the feelings of superiority don't become unreasonably aggressive - and this is where/how the post-modernists get you. If nationalism includes feelings of superiority, that could lead to wars, and everyone knows war is bad so nationalism must be bad. This is the self-flagellation that Europe has put itself through after two world wars. Rather than recognizing mankind's tendency toward violence and admitting to the need to harness those tendencies - Europe blames religion and nations - because surely if there neither existed there would be peace on Earth (give me a break). But on those types of premises, and slowly, through the manipulation of language, the post-modernists undermine the very things that tie our culture together.

The question is to what end?

Would be interested in your view of the alleged "patriots" who were convicted in DC court today for seditious conspiracy and obstruction of a federal proceeding? Nothing major, just the certification of a presidential election and a peaceful transfer of power. Lenin (the ultimate marxist) would be spinning in his grave if he wasn't uber-embalmed and on display in glass to this very day at the Kremlin.

Only 2 of the 5 Oath Keepers charged with Seditious Conspiracy were convicted.
What a disappointment for the most dangerous conspiracy in the history of our nation.
Better nail more Proud Boys than that.
What about the Willard war council ?

The rest got multiple convictions for obstruction and will serve serious time. The case for the Proud Boys is actually better and they will get theirs as well. Many of Tarrio's pals have already flipped to save their own sorry azzes. There will be many more flippers before this is over.

Insightful BBC piece on Rhodes' family entitled - Stewart Rhodes' son: ‘How I escaped my father’s militia’

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-63709446

I just don't get your penchant for giving all these people a pass and to be so glib about what they were doing leading up to and during January 6. The point was to overturn a legitimate election and peaceful transfer of power. Even your pals at the WSJ don't share this view.
Is this what you served for?

Who says I'm giving them a pass ? They deserve to be punished.
I've yet to see evidence that this was a massive coup to overthrow the govt, orchestrated by Trump.
The convictions aren't living up to the hype.

[RedFromMI]

What OS is missing is that the plan for January 6 was never a full bore attempt at overthrowing the government (that at the time in fact was controlled by Trump and his allies). It was to keep the final certification from happening, to delay and allow the Trumpian forces to find some state(s) that would overturn its electoral college vote to throw the vote to the House of Representatives, where the R dominance in state delegations would ensure a Trump victory.

And it came perilously close to actually making that delay happen. Also close enough to killing members of Congress and the VP.

Trump and his allies put enough pressure on government agencies to minimize any heavy law enforcement presence at the Capitol, and it was clear to me his intention was to incite the crowd earlier that day to march on the Capitol and force that delay.

[HooDat]

I must be insane. Evidently so were the Joint Chiefs, so I'm in good company.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/202 ... -riot.html

I didn't see where the Joint Chiefs thought Trump was actually going to over-turn the results. I also didn't see them on tv the day of (or even day after) calling out the attempted coup. IF they really thought the transition of power was in danger, don't you think they would do more than write a strongly worded letter.... give me a break. I am not excusing the behavior - the event should be fully investigated and all parties responsible should go to jail. Instead we will get theater like the Joint Chiefs' strongly worded letter.

Nationalist means: you buy the BS of the your party leader, and NEVER bother to see if he's lying to you, and assume everyone but your party leader is lying to you. THAT is what Nationalism is in a nutshell.

afan - that may be what you think of when you hear the word nationalist, but it is not what the word means. I posted the exact definition in my post. And this is where the problem comes. You essentially think nationalist means idiot.

But again, here is the definition: "a person who advocates political independence for a country. a person with strong patriotic feelings, especially one who believes in the superiority of their country over others.

Nowhere does it say blind follower of a cult of personality. When you fall into these linguistic traps you step into traps laid by folks with an interest in dividing. One side hears nationalist and they think deplorable or natzi; the other hears patriot and pride in their country.

[Typical Lax Dad]

What OS is missing is that the plan for January 6 was never a full bore attempt at overthrowing the government (that at the time in fact was controlled by Trump and his allies). It was to keep the final certification from happening, to delay and allow the Trumpian forces to find some state(s) that would overturn its electoral college vote to throw the vote to the House of Representatives, where the R dominance in state delegations would ensure a Trump victory.

And it came perilously close to actually making that delay happen. Also close enough to killing members of Congress and the VP.

Trump and his allies put enough pressure on government agencies to minimize any heavy law enforcement presence at the Capitol, and it was clear to me his intention was to incite the crowd earlier that day to march on the Capitol and force that delay.

It was very very close to succeeding and has provided a template…. If a super bowl was rigged but didn’t work, the clowns here wouldn’t be shrugging their shoulders.

[old salt]

I must be insane. Evidently so were the Joint Chiefs, so I'm in good company.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/202 ... -riot.html

I didn't see where the Joint Chiefs thought Trump was actually going to over-turn the results. I also didn't see them on tv the day of (or even day after) calling out the attempted coup. IF they really thought the transition of power was in danger, don't you think they would do more than write a strongly worded letter.... give me a break. I am not excusing the behavior - the event should be fully investigated and all parties responsible should go to jail. Instead we will get theater like the Joint Chiefs' strongly worded letter.

Nationalist means: you buy the BS of the your party leader, and NEVER bother to see if he's lying to you, and assume everyone but your party leader is lying to you. THAT is what Nationalism is in a nutshell.

afan - that may be what you think of when you hear the word nationalist, but it is not what the word means. I posted the exact definition in my post. And this is where the problem comes. You essentially think nationalist means idiot.

But again, here is the definition: "a person who advocates political independence for a country. a person with strong patriotic feelings, especially one who believes in the superiority of their country over others.

Nowhere does it say blind follower of a cult of personality. When you fall into these linguistic traps you step into traps laid by folks with an interest in dividing. One side hears nationalist and they think deplorable or natzi; the other hears patriot and pride in their country.

...& misconstrue this -- one who believes in the superiority of their country over others. -- as racial superiority,
rather than the form of govt & the society it produced. The results.

[HooDat]

You make my point. Even if we end up finding out that Trump tried to send an armed private army into the Capital Building to kill off Pelosi and Pence, the bottom line is - he failed. The system worked as intended. Power was transferred to the winner of the election. I am not saying no harm no foul. I am saying that the SYSTEM worked.

Any sane person understands that at no point were we in danger of Trump succeeding in over-turning the election results.

I think you might want to read up on all the stuff Trump tried to do. Having one or two low level, no name officials being the ONLY thing standing between the peaceful transition of power, and complete chaos is terrifying to this American voter.

Yep, you're right, they didn't cave.

But what's your answer if this happens again, and these one or two State officials DO cave, casting doubt on who actually won the election.

Personally, I don't want the entire US empire hinging on the moral fiber of some guy named "Steve". Pretty obvious Trump found that this system isn't as filled with checks and balances as we'd all like to think exists in our system. It can come down to one man's honesty.

I know the narrative has decided to make two people the hero's of the day, but I don't buy it. Just two people, no more no less stood between our government standing or failing? That is a great story, but that is what is - a story.

I am not defending the ego-maniacal narcissist that is Trump. I am not defending the idiots who stormed the Capital. I am not defending the morons on the internet that think the riots were led by FBI plants, but those FBI plants were somehow working for Biden (What the heck ???). I am simply saying the "DANGER" of the day has been greatly exaggerated for political and financial purposes.

We would do much better to address what happened with cool heads so that we can learn and avoid it in the future - instead we get bad made-for-tv movie scripts where two low level staffers stood between a would-be dictator and his intended overthrow of DEMOCRACY....

I can't wait for the sequel....

[Typical Lax Dad]

You make my point. Even if we end up finding out that Trump tried to send an armed private army into the Capital Building to kill off Pelosi and Pence, the bottom line is - he failed. The system worked as intended. Power was transferred to the winner of the election. I am not saying no harm no foul. I am saying that the SYSTEM worked.

Any sane person understands that at no point were we in danger of Trump succeeding in over-turning the election results.

I think you might want to read up on all the stuff Trump tried to do. Having one or two low level, no name officials being the ONLY thing standing between the peaceful transition of power, and complete chaos is terrifying to this American voter.

Yep, you're right, they didn't cave.

But what's your answer if this happens again, and these one or two State officials DO cave, casting doubt on who actually won the election.

Personally, I don't want the entire US empire hinging on the moral fiber of some guy named "Steve". Pretty obvious Trump found that this system isn't as filled with checks and balances as we'd all like to think exists in our system. It can come down to one man's honesty.

I know the narrative has decided to make two people the hero's of the day, but I don't buy it. Just two people, no more no less stood between our government standing or failing? That is a great story, but that is what is - a story.

I am not defending the ego-maniacal narcissist that is Trump. I am not defending the idiots who stormed the Capital. I am not defending the morons on the internet that think the riots were led by FBI plants, but those FBI plants were somehow working for Biden (What the heck ???). I am simply saying the "DANGER" of the day has been greatly exaggerated for political and financial purposes.

We would do much better to address what happened with cool heads so that we can learn and avoid it in the future - instead we get bad made-for-tv movie scripts where two low level staffers stood between a would-be dictator and his intended overthrow of DEMOCRACY....

I can't wait for the sequel....

[HooDat]

I must be insane. Evidently so were the Joint Chiefs, so I'm in good company.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/202 ... -riot.html

I didn't see where the Joint Chiefs thought Trump was actually going to over-turn the results. I also didn't see them on tv the day of (or even day after) calling out the attempted coup. IF they really thought the transition of power was in danger, don't you think they would do more than write a strongly worded letter.... give me a break. I am not excusing the behavior - the event should be fully investigated and all parties responsible should go to jail. Instead we will get theater like the Joint Chiefs' strongly worded letter.

Nationalist means: you buy the BS of the your party leader, and NEVER bother to see if he's lying to you, and assume everyone but your party leader is lying to you. THAT is what Nationalism is in a nutshell.

afan - that may be what you think of when you hear the word nationalist, but it is not what the word means. I posted the exact definition in my post. And this is where the problem comes. You essentially think nationalist means idiot.

But again, here is the definition: "a person who advocates political independence for a country. a person with strong patriotic feelings, especially one who believes in the superiority of their country over others.

Nowhere does it say blind follower of a cult of personality. When you fall into these linguistic traps you step into traps laid by folks with an interest in dividing. One side hears nationalist and they think deplorable or natzi; the other hears patriot and pride in their country.

...& misconstrue this -- one who believes in the superiority of their country over others. -- as racial superiority,
rather than the form of govt & the society it produced. The results.

exactly - one side is saying it is by definition the former, while lumping reasonable who people believe in the latter with the actual racists for political gains.

[a fan]

afan - that may be what you think of when you hear the word nationalist, but it is not what the word means. I posted the exact definition in my post. And this is where the problem comes. You essentially think nationalist means idiot.

No. You're applying the definition in a very general sense.

I'm telling you what Nationalist means in 2022 America.

But again, here is the definition: "a person who advocates political independence for a country. a person with strong patriotic feelings, especially one who believes in the superiority of their country over others.

That definition has no meaning. Name a country that doesn't have the bulk or their citizens that fit that definition.

You can't. So if that's the case? The word has no meaning.

You have to fill in the next steps......the rise of Strong Men leaders, and the blind support of said leader. Xenophobia, and a belief in monoculture.....follow behind like a train.

Why do you think Trump was on and on about them foreigners from the South, invading our country? You think that was a coincidence? Or a feature of Nationalism?

Nowhere does it say blind follower of a cult of personality. When you fall into these linguistic traps you step into traps laid by folks with an interest in dividing. One side hears nationalist and they think deplorable or natzi; the other hears patriot and pride in their country.

No, I'm telling you what a Nationalist is in 2022 America. It implies xenophobic behavior....and the rise of fascism. It's a step in a process.

[a fan]

I must be insane. Evidently so were the Joint Chiefs, so I'm in good company.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/202 ... -riot.html

I didn't see where the Joint Chiefs thought Trump was actually going to over-turn the results. I also didn't see them on tv the day of (or even day after) calling out the attempted coup. IF they really thought the transition of power was in danger, don't you think they would do more than write a strongly worded letter.... give me a break. I am not excusing the behavior - the event should be fully investigated and all parties responsible should go to jail. Instead we will get theater like the Joint Chiefs' strongly worded letter.

Nationalist means: you buy the BS of the your party leader, and NEVER bother to see if he's lying to you, and assume everyone but your party leader is lying to you. THAT is what Nationalism is in a nutshell.

afan - that may be what you think of when you hear the word nationalist, but it is not what the word means. I posted the exact definition in my post. And this is where the problem comes. You essentially think nationalist means idiot.

But again, here is the definition: "a person who advocates political independence for a country. a person with strong patriotic feelings, especially one who believes in the superiority of their country over others.

Nowhere does it say blind follower of a cult of personality. When you fall into these linguistic traps you step into traps laid by folks with an interest in dividing. One side hears nationalist and they think deplorable or natzi; the other hears patriot and pride in their country.

...& misconstrue this -- one who believes in the superiority of their country over others. -- as racial superiority,
rather than the form of govt & the society it produced. The results.

exactly - one side is saying it is by definition the former, while lumping reasonable who people believe in the latter with the actual racists for political gains.

What are you two talking about? In what world do American nationalists believe in the American Federal Government as superior?

Ask a TrumpFan what they think of the Federal Government. They think it's THE problem in their lives. The literal and direct opposite of what you two are claiming. If anything, they want to rip our form of Federal Government apart. How many times have you heard about Secession, FFS?

You guys are crispy-crackers.

[HooDat]

afan - that may be what you think of when you hear the word nationalist, but it is not what the word means. I posted the exact definition in my post. And this is where the problem comes. You essentially think nationalist means idiot.

No. You're applying the definition in a very general sense.

I'm telling you what Nationalist means in 2022 America.

But again, here is the definition: "a person who advocates political independence for a country. a person with strong patriotic feelings, especially one who believes in the superiority of their country over others.

That definition has no meaning. Name a country that doesn't have the bulk or their citizens that fit that definition.

You can't. So if that's the case? The word has no meaning.

You have to fill in the next steps......the rise of Strong Men leaders, and the blind support of said leader. Xenophobia, and a belief in monoculture.....follow behind like a train.

Why do you think Trump was on and on about them foreigners from the South, invading our country? You think that was a coincidence? Or a feature of Nationalism?

Nowhere does it say blind follower of a cult of personality. When you fall into these linguistic traps you step into traps laid by folks with an interest in dividing. One side hears nationalist and they think deplorable or natzi; the other hears patriot and pride in their country.

No, I'm telling you what a Nationalist is in 2022 America. It implies xenophobic behavior....and the rise of fascism. It's a step in a process.

we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one my friend. You are telling me that someone who believes in borders and immigration control is a xenophobe and one step away from a fascist? I am going to tell you that you are being manipulated. A Nationalist loves his or her country not a strong man.

And of course most countries are full of people who are nationalists by my strict definition, that doesn't make it meaningless - that is like saying because there are a lot of fish in the ocean the word fish has no meaning....

There is a growing force that is quite lukewarm on the idea of nations, because they have a long term agenda toward globalism. Be careful of them my friend, as they have little sympathy for small privately owned businesses....

[HooDat]

What are you two talking about? In what world do American nationalists believe in the American Federal Government as superior?

Ask a TrumpFan what they think of the Federal Government. They think it's THE problem in their lives. The literal and direct opposite of what you two are claiming. If anything, they want to rip our form of Federal Government apart. How many times have you heard about Secession, FFS?

You guys are crispy-crackers.

First, I never said nationalists love the Government, I said they love their country. I also said they don't love a strong man - again, they love their country.

You can love your country and be critical of how the people in government do their jobs. It's actually a sign of a healthy country if that criticism is allowed....

[Typical Lax Dad]

What are you two talking about? In what world do American nationalists believe in the American Federal Government as superior?

Ask a TrumpFan what they think of the Federal Government. They think it's THE problem in their lives. The literal and direct opposite of what you two are claiming. If anything, they want to rip our form of Federal Government apart. How many times have you heard about Secession, FFS?

You guys are crispy-crackers.

First, I never said nationalists love the Government, I said they love their country. I also said they don't love a strong man - again, they love their country.

You can love your country and be critical of how the people in government do their jobs. It's actually a sign of a healthy country if that criticism is allowed....

You mean “vision” of their country. That would be accurate. Like the confederates loved their vision of America or their vision of the South….You disagree?

[HooDat]

What are you two talking about? In what world do American nationalists believe in the American Federal Government as superior?

Ask a TrumpFan what they think of the Federal Government. They think it's THE problem in their lives. The literal and direct opposite of what you two are claiming. If anything, they want to rip our form of Federal Government apart. How many times have you heard about Secession, FFS?

You guys are crispy-crackers.

First, I never said nationalists love the Government, I said they love their country. I also said they don't love a strong man - again, they love their country.

You can love your country and be critical of how the people in government do their jobs. It's actually a sign of a healthy country if that criticism is allowed....

You mean “vision” of their country. That would be accurate. Like the confederates loved their vision of America or their vision of the South….You disagree?

Yes, I disagree. The confederates were the opposite of nationalists - they seceded from their country - or at least attempted to. According to modern senses of our country they were clearly traitors. Under the understanding of the political landscape of the time, the primacy of state vs federal loyalty was more complicated - but it doesn't change the fact that they were traitors, because they were. TLD - you seem to have a fixation with the old south. Is it a keen historical interest or a way to subtly try to accuse people you disagree with of racism?

What is interesting to observe - in the continuing saga of how the political elite are driving wedges everywhere they can - is how both sides claim the other is about to tear our country apart. The right wants civil war, the left wants to do away with the electoral college, the right wants to undermine democracy by manipulating the SCOTUS nominations process, the left want to circumvent democracy by stacking the SCOTUS, the right are racist xenophobes, the left are socialist commies ------ those guys over there are why your life sucks, it has nothing to do with the unprecedented power combined with complete lack of accountability of "our" governments and large corporations....

[MDlaxfan76]

What are you two talking about? In what world do American nationalists believe in the American Federal Government as superior?

Ask a TrumpFan what they think of the Federal Government. They think it's THE problem in their lives. The literal and direct opposite of what you two are claiming. If anything, they want to rip our form of Federal Government apart. How many times have you heard about Secession, FFS?

You guys are crispy-crackers.

First, I never said nationalists love the Government, I said they love their country. I also said they don't love a strong man - again, they love their country.

You can love your country and be critical of how the people in government do their jobs. It's actually a sign of a healthy country if that criticism is allowed....

You mean “vision” of their country. That would be accurate. Like the confederates loved their vision of America or their vision of the South….You disagree?

Yes, I disagree. The confederates were the opposite of nationalists - they seceded from their country - or at least attempted to. According to modern senses of our country they were clearly traitors. Under the understanding of the political landscape of the time, the primacy of state vs federal loyalty was more complicated - but it doesn't change the fact that they were traitors, because they were. TLD - you seem to have a fixation with the old south. Is it a keen historical interest or a way to subtly try to accuse people you disagree with of racism?

What is interesting to observe - in the continuing saga of how the political elite are driving wedges everywhere they can - is how both sides claim the other is about to tear our country apart. The right wants civil war, the left wants to do away with the electoral college, the right wants to undermine democracy by manipulating the SCOTUS nominations process, the left want to circumvent democracy by stacking the SCOTUS, the right are racist xenophobes, the left are socialist commies ------ those guys over there are why your life sucks, it has nothing to do with the unprecedented power combined with complete lack of accountability of "our" governments and large corporations....

Actually, they definitely thought of themselves as "nationalists"...they just want their nation to be ruled by them, with slavery preserved.

[a fan]

we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one my friend. You are telling me that someone who believes in borders and immigration control is a xenophobe and one step away from a fascist?

No, I'm not. Because guess what? EVERYONE believes in borders an immigration control. It ain't just Trumpfans. If you don't see that? YOU are being manipulated.

I am going to tell you that you are being manipulated. A Nationalist loves his or her country not a strong man.

Nope. Sorry. The Federal Government IS "our country". Literally.

Go ahead and define America WITHOUT the Federal Government. You can't. But you're welcome to try.

There is a growing force that is quite lukewarm on the idea of nations, because they have a long term agenda toward globalism.

Have you been asleep the last 40 years? Who has been touting free trade vs. protectionism all this time, my man?

We've been globalists....selling our working class down the river....for 40+ years. Started by Republicans. Continued with the Dem starting with Clinton. The idea that it's the other way around, and we're "becoming" globalists in 2022....is silly.

And Trump made things WORSE by passing his single big bill: the Corporate Tax cuts for multinational corporations.....so like I said: fake nationalists.

[Typical Lax Dad]

What are you two talking about? In what world do American nationalists believe in the American Federal Government as superior?

Ask a TrumpFan what they think of the Federal Government. They think it's THE problem in their lives. The literal and direct opposite of what you two are claiming. If anything, they want to rip our form of Federal Government apart. How many times have you heard about Secession, FFS?

You guys are crispy-crackers.

First, I never said nationalists love the Government, I said they love their country. I also said they don't love a strong man - again, they love their country.

You can love your country and be critical of how the people in government do their jobs. It's actually a sign of a healthy country if that criticism is allowed....

You mean “vision” of their country. That would be accurate. Like the confederates loved their vision of America or their vision of the South….You disagree?

Yes, I disagree. The confederates were the opposite of nationalists - they seceded from their country - or at least attempted to. According to modern senses of our country they were clearly traitors. Under the understanding of the political landscape of the time, the primacy of state vs federal loyalty was more complicated - but it doesn't change the fact that they were traitors, because they were. TLD - you seem to have a fixation with the old south. Is it a keen historical interest or a way to subtly try to accuse people you disagree with of racism?

What is interesting to observe - in the continuing saga of how the political elite are driving wedges everywhere they can - is how both sides claim the other is about to tear our country apart. The right wants civil war, the left wants to do away with the electoral college, the right wants to undermine democracy by manipulating the SCOTUS nominations process, the left want to circumvent democracy by stacking the SCOTUS, the right are racist xenophobes, the left are socialist commies ------ those guys over there are why your life sucks, it has nothing to do with the unprecedented power combined with complete lack of accountability of "our" governments and large corporations....

NATIONALISM
"Nationalism refers to a people's sense of common belonging and loyalty to a nation. Nationalism may arise among people who share such common traits as culture, language, origin, and tradition. It may develop as people join to form a unified government. Nationalism may also originate as people fight to establish a unique racial, cultural, or religious identity. A peoples' struggle to prevent their identity from being changed or erased by a more powerful group might also spur a feeling of nationalism. In each situation, nationalism creates a sense of connection and commitment to a group with a distinct set of beliefs, ideals, and traditions."

(Cerulo, K. A. (2016). Nationalism. In World Book student. Retrieved from http://www.worldbookonline.com/student/ ... d=ar383740)

BTW, I purposely picked the South…..I added it because I knew that you would mention my picking the south. You have tendencies that you may not be aware of. We all lean one way or the other even when we feign neutrality. Those confederates were loyal to their vision of a Nation. You want to thread a needle with your innocent definition of Nationalism when everyone on the planet knows otherwise. That definition I posted was from Australia. I picked a foreign source to avoid the Woke, Liberal, post modern, PC claim.

EDIT:

Liberals have been stacking the SCOTUS?

[HooDat]

What are you two talking about? In what world do American nationalists believe in the American Federal Government as superior?

Ask a TrumpFan what they think of the Federal Government. They think it's THE problem in their lives. The literal and direct opposite of what you two are claiming. If anything, they want to rip our form of Federal Government apart. How many times have you heard about Secession, FFS?

You guys are crispy-crackers.

First, I never said nationalists love the Government, I said they love their country. I also said they don't love a strong man - again, they love their country.

You can love your country and be critical of how the people in government do their jobs. It's actually a sign of a healthy country if that criticism is allowed....

You mean “vision” of their country. That would be accurate. Like the confederates loved their vision of America or their vision of the South….You disagree?

Yes, I disagree. The confederates were the opposite of nationalists - they seceded from their country - or at least attempted to. According to modern senses of our country they were clearly traitors. Under the understanding of the political landscape of the time, the primacy of state vs federal loyalty was more complicated - but it doesn't change the fact that they were traitors, because they were. TLD - you seem to have a fixation with the old south. Is it a keen historical interest or a way to subtly try to accuse people you disagree with of racism?

What is interesting to observe - in the continuing saga of how the political elite are driving wedges everywhere they can - is how both sides claim the other is about to tear our country apart. The right wants civil war, the left wants to do away with the electoral college, the right wants to undermine democracy by manipulating the SCOTUS nominations process, the left want to circumvent democracy by stacking the SCOTUS, the right are racist xenophobes, the left are socialist commies ------ those guys over there are why your life sucks, it has nothing to do with the unprecedented power combined with complete lack of accountability of "our" governments and large corporations....

Actually, they definitely thought of themselves as "nationalists"...they just want their nation to be ruled by them, with slavery preserved.

I will agree that they seemed to like the USA just fine when they were the ones running it I am sure that southerners securing 9 out of 15 presidencies from the founding up to Lincoln made them relatively happy with "their" nation. But when you go 0 for 2 on the last two elections I guess you get petulant....

Nonetheless, it doesn't really matter what they thought of themselves, if it was "nationalist" then they were wrong. Unless of course you are applying it to the CSA, but in that case I would still attempt to argue that by logical definition the confederates had to put state ahead of nation even in their new, short-lived, CSA.