January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

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old salt
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by old salt »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:03 pm
old salt wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 1:53 pm I wonder what the objecting staffers see as Liz Cheney's potential path to the Presidency.
There is no way she can win the (R) nomination.
If she runs as a 3rd party candidate, she'd assure a (D) victory.
There's no way she could become a (D) & win the nomination.
She's destined to be an increasingly irrelevant outsider, unless/until the GOP implodes & reconstitutes.
What makes you think that the objecting/leaking staffers have even a scintilla of concern about Cheney becoming President???

Seems to me they want the report to be more of an indictment on the GOP altogether and less specifically about Trump and his acolytes, but that's not out of concern about Cheney.

For instance, they apparently want to highlight the white nationalism and 'christian nationalism' rampant in the support for Jan 6 and the whitewashing of the transgressions...they see this as endemic to the GOP now (I agree) and want to make that as or more important than the particular vessel (Trump). These are quite likely Dem staffers...and they want to be clear that it's the movement that needs to be called out, not just the a-hole traitor who has been its focal point.

It's a debatable position as to what to emphasize, but they're staffers and the Members have the say, with Cheney rightfully immensely influential. and her views appear to have the other Members' support, by and large.
“We all came from prestigious jobs, dropping what we were doing because we were told this would be an important fact-finding investigation that would inform the public,” said one former committee staffer. “But when [the committee] became a Cheney 2024 campaign, many of us became discouraged.”

You appear to agree with these staffers.

“Some staff have submitted subpar material for the report that reflects long-held liberal biases about federal law enforcement, Republicans, and sociological issues outside the scope of the Select Committee’s work. She won’t sign onto any ‘narrative’ that suggests Republicans are inherently racist or smears men and women in law enforcement, or suggests every American who believes God has blessed America is a white supremacist.”
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

old salt wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:18 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:03 pm
old salt wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 1:53 pm I wonder what the objecting staffers see as Liz Cheney's potential path to the Presidency.
There is no way she can win the (R) nomination.
If she runs as a 3rd party candidate, she'd assure a (D) victory.
There's no way she could become a (D) & win the nomination.
She's destined to be an increasingly irrelevant outsider, unless/until the GOP implodes & reconstitutes.
What makes you think that the objecting/leaking staffers have even a scintilla of concern about Cheney becoming President???

Seems to me they want the report to be more of an indictment on the GOP altogether and less specifically about Trump and his acolytes, but that's not out of concern about Cheney.

For instance, they apparently want to highlight the white nationalism and 'christian nationalism' rampant in the support for Jan 6 and the whitewashing of the transgressions...they see this as endemic to the GOP now (I agree) and want to make that as or more important than the particular vessel (Trump). These are quite likely Dem staffers...and they want to be clear that it's the movement that needs to be called out, not just the a-hole traitor who has been its focal point.

It's a debatable position as to what to emphasize, but they're staffers and the Members have the say, with Cheney rightfully immensely influential. and her views appear to have the other Members' support, by and large.
“We all came from prestigious jobs, dropping what we were doing because we were told this would be an important fact-finding investigation that would inform the public,” said one former committee staffer. “But when [the committee] became a Cheney 2024 campaign, many of us became discouraged.”

You appear to agree with these staffers.

“Some staff have submitted subpar material for the report that reflects long-held liberal biases about federal law enforcement, Republicans, and sociological issues outside the scope of the Select Committee’s work. She won’t sign onto any ‘narrative’ that suggests Republicans are inherently racist or smears men and women in law enforcement, or suggests every American who believes God has blessed America is a white supremacist.”
ahhh, thanks, I see where you got that notion.
Yeah, I agree that's a spurious argument and just griping by a Dem staffer frustrated that they don't have the final say.

Well, as a lifelong Republican, I can attest that this statement would be wrong: "Republicans are inherently racist or smears men and women in law enforcement, or suggests every American who believes God has blessed America is a white supremacist.”

And sure, I suspect there are left-wing incendiaries who might make such absolutist statements, some of whom might even be staffers in Congress.

But let's not pretend that the GOP, led by Trump, hasn't become dominated by the white nationalist, christian nationalist movement to tremendously ill effect. Election denialism has become a tool for this cult. And two-thirds of the GOP are on board...that ain't "all" but it's domination.

I don't think Trump is the sole problem, I think all the weasels who have bowed before him are fully complicit.
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old salt
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by old salt »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:35 pm But let's not pretend that the GOP, led by Trump, hasn't become dominated by the white nationalist, christian nationalist movement to tremendously ill effect. Election denialism has become a tool for this cult. And two-thirds of the GOP are on board...that ain't "all" but it's domination.

I don't think Trump is the sole problem, I think all the weasels who have bowed before him are fully complicit.
imho -- you are exaggerating any ill effect & misrepresenting the patriotism of millions of white christians.
Farfromgeneva
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by Farfromgeneva »

Using the "h" would be a gross exaggeration and overstatement.
Harvard University, out
University of Utah, in

I am going to get a 4.0 in damage.

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MDlaxfan76
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

old salt wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:41 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:35 pm But let's not pretend that the GOP, led by Trump, hasn't become dominated by the white nationalist, christian nationalist movement to tremendously ill effect. Election denialism has become a tool for this cult. And two-thirds of the GOP are on board...that ain't "all" but it's domination.

I don't think Trump is the sole problem, I think all the weasels who have bowed before him are fully complicit.
imho -- you are exaggerating any ill effect & misrepresenting the patriotism of millions of white christians.
As a white christian I can agree there are many of us who are fulsomely patriotic. and sure, there are millions like me.

But I ain't a christian nationalist nor a white nationalist, nor the overlap.
And I'm not an election denier, nor am I going to make up, repeat, support stupidly false arguments about voting insecurity.

I think all of that is gross and immensely damaging to the country I love.
And millions of white christians, like me, agree.

But we're not the MAGA cult.
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HooDat
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by HooDat »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:46 pm
old salt wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:41 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:35 pm But let's not pretend that the GOP, led by Trump, hasn't become dominated by the white nationalist, christian nationalist movement to tremendously ill effect. Election denialism has become a tool for this cult. And two-thirds of the GOP are on board...that ain't "all" but it's domination.

I don't think Trump is the sole problem, I think all the weasels who have bowed before him are fully complicit.
imho -- you are exaggerating any ill effect & misrepresenting the patriotism of millions of white christians.
As a white christian I can agree there are many of us who are fulsomely patriotic. and sure, there are millions like me.

But I ain't a christian nationalist nor a white nationalist, nor the overlap.
And I'm not an election denier, nor am I going to make up, repeat, support stupidly false arguments about voting insecurity.

I think all of that is gross and immensely damaging to the country I love.
And millions of white christians, like me, agree.

But we're not the MAGA cult.
That is one more place they apply the "wedge". It creates all sorts of points of fissure:

First, let's note that there are a lot of very good and reasonable people who are a) white, b) Christian, and c) love their nation.

Let's also acknowledge that there are (abhorrent) people who are "white nationalists" in the way that the left uses the term. Hateful bigots who promote an agenda based on race separation. I believe that these people represent a very, very small percentage of Americans, but I think there are more now than there were 20 years ago for a few reasons.

There are politicians on both sides of the aisle who benefit from racism. The ones who appeal to the bigots I described above and the ones who run around calling white men racists like a spurned pilgrim wife looking for witches in every woman that attracts her husband's eye.

But think about why the term nationalist is now being used as a slur? According to the New Oxford American dictionary nationalist means: i) a person who advocates political independence for a country; b) a person with strong patriotic feelings, especially one who believes in the superiority of their country over others. Seems pretty benign.

Undermining the meaning of words is a game marxists and post-modernists love to play as a way of chipping away at the foundation of society. It is done on purpose. The definition of nationalist generally strikes me as including good things - as long as the feelings of superiority don't become unreasonably aggressive - and this is where/how the post-modernists get you. If nationalism includes feelings of superiority, that could lead to wars, and everyone knows war is bad so nationalism must be bad. This is the self-flagellation that Europe has put itself through after two world wars. Rather than recognizing mankind's tendency toward violence and admitting to the need to harness those tendencies - Europe blames religion and nations - because surely if there neither existed there would be peace on Earth (give me a break). But on those types of premises, and slowly, through the manipulation of language, the post-modernists undermine the very things that tie our culture together.

The question is to what end?
STILL somewhere back in the day....

...and waiting/hoping for a tinfoil hat emoji......
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by cradleandshoot »

HooDat wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:51 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:46 pm
old salt wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:41 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:35 pm But let's not pretend that the GOP, led by Trump, hasn't become dominated by the white nationalist, christian nationalist movement to tremendously ill effect. Election denialism has become a tool for this cult. And two-thirds of the GOP are on board...that ain't "all" but it's domination.

I don't think Trump is the sole problem, I think all the weasels who have bowed before him are fully complicit.
imho -- you are exaggerating any ill effect & misrepresenting the patriotism of millions of white christians.
As a white christian I can agree there are many of us who are fulsomely patriotic. and sure, there are millions like me.

But I ain't a christian nationalist nor a white nationalist, nor the overlap.
And I'm not an election denier, nor am I going to make up, repeat, support stupidly false arguments about voting insecurity.

I think all of that is gross and immensely damaging to the country I love.
And millions of white christians, like me, agree.

But we're not the MAGA cult.
That is one more place they apply the "wedge". It creates all sorts of points of fissure:

First, let's note that there are a lot of very good and reasonable people who are a) white, b) Christian, and c) love their nation.

Let's also acknowledge that there are (abhorrent) people who are "white nationalists" in the way that the left uses the term. Hateful bigots who promote an agenda based on race separation. I believe that these people represent a very, very small percentage of Americans, but I think there are more now than there were 20 years ago for a few reasons.

There are politicians on both sides of the aisle who benefit from racism. The ones who appeal to the bigots I described above and the ones who run around calling white men racists like a spurned pilgrim wife looking for witches in every woman that attracts her husband's eye.

But think about why the term nationalist is now being used as a slur? According to the New Oxford American dictionary nationalist means: i) a person who advocates political independence for a country; b) a person with strong patriotic feelings, especially one who believes in the superiority of their country over others. Seems pretty benign.

Undermining the meaning of words is a game marxists and post-modernists love to play as a way of chipping away at the foundation of society. It is done on purpose. The definition of nationalist generally strikes me as including good things - as long as the feelings of superiority don't become unreasonably aggressive - and this is where/how the post-modernists get you. If nationalism includes feelings of superiority, that could lead to wars, and everyone knows war is bad so nationalism must be bad. This is the self-flagellation that Europe has put itself through after two world wars. Rather than recognizing mankind's tendency toward violence and admitting to the need to harness those tendencies - Europe blames religion and nations - because surely if there neither existed there would be peace on Earth (give me a break). But on those types of premises, and slowly, through the manipulation of language, the post-modernists undermine the very things that tie our culture together.

The question is to what end?
+1, IMO this is the post of the year on this forum. Very well written from every perspective.
We don't make mistakes, we have happy accidents.
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NattyBohChamps04
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by NattyBohChamps04 »

HooDat wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:51 pmThat is one more place they apply the "wedge". It creates all sorts of points of fissure:

First, let's note that there are a lot of very good and reasonable people who are a) white, b) Christian, and c) love their nation.

Let's also acknowledge that there are (abhorrent) people who are "white nationalists" in the way that the left uses the term. Hateful bigots who promote an agenda based on race separation. I believe that these people represent a very, very small percentage of Americans, but I think there are more now than there were 20 years ago for a few reasons.

There are politicians on both sides of the aisle who benefit from racism. The ones who appeal to the bigots I described above and the ones who run around calling white men racists like a spurned pilgrim wife looking for witches in every woman that attracts her husband's eye.

But think about why the term nationalist is now being used as a slur? According to the New Oxford American dictionary nationalist means: i) a person who advocates political independence for a country; b) a person with strong patriotic feelings, especially one who believes in the superiority of their country over others. Seems pretty benign.

Undermining the meaning of words is a game marxists and post-modernists love to play as a way of chipping away at the foundation of society. It is done on purpose. The definition of nationalist generally strikes me as including good things - as long as the feelings of superiority don't become unreasonably aggressive - and this is where/how the post-modernists get you. If nationalism includes feelings of superiority, that could lead to wars, and everyone knows war is bad so nationalism must be bad. This is the self-flagellation that Europe has put itself through after two world wars. Rather than recognizing mankind's tendency toward violence and admitting to the need to harness those tendencies - Europe blames religion and nations - because surely if there neither existed there would be peace on Earth (give me a break). But on those types of premises, and slowly, through the manipulation of language, the post-modernists undermine the very things that tie our culture together.

The question is to what end?
White Nationalism and Christian Nationalism are very different ideas from simple nationalism. That definition you posted does not seem benign, nor does it seem harmful. It's simply a definition. We see examples of benign nationalism all the time, and examples of harmful nationalism every so often as well.

Do you think trying to redefine language is only done by "marxists and post-modernists"?

Critical Race Theory. Entitlements. Family Values. Groomer. Liberal. Freedom of Speech. Free Market Economy. Death Tax.

There are literal Republican playbooks on undermining and changing the meaning of words. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Luntz
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by youthathletics »

HooDat wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:51 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:46 pm
old salt wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:41 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:35 pm But let's not pretend that the GOP, led by Trump, hasn't become dominated by the white nationalist, christian nationalist movement to tremendously ill effect. Election denialism has become a tool for this cult. And two-thirds of the GOP are on board...that ain't "all" but it's domination.

I don't think Trump is the sole problem, I think all the weasels who have bowed before him are fully complicit.
imho -- you are exaggerating any ill effect & misrepresenting the patriotism of millions of white christians.
As a white christian I can agree there are many of us who are fulsomely patriotic. and sure, there are millions like me.

But I ain't a christian nationalist nor a white nationalist, nor the overlap.
And I'm not an election denier, nor am I going to make up, repeat, support stupidly false arguments about voting insecurity.

I think all of that is gross and immensely damaging to the country I love.
And millions of white christians, like me, agree.

But we're not the MAGA cult.
That is one more place they apply the "wedge". It creates all sorts of points of fissure:

First, let's note that there are a lot of very good and reasonable people who are a) white, b) Christian, and c) love their nation.

Let's also acknowledge that there are (abhorrent) people who are "white nationalists" in the way that the left uses the term. Hateful bigots who promote an agenda based on race separation. I believe that these people represent a very, very small percentage of Americans, but I think there are more now than there were 20 years ago for a few reasons.

There are politicians on both sides of the aisle who benefit from racism. The ones who appeal to the bigots I described above and the ones who run around calling white men racists like a spurned pilgrim wife looking for witches in every woman that attracts her husband's eye.

But think about why the term nationalist is now being used as a slur? According to the New Oxford American dictionary nationalist means: i) a person who advocates political independence for a country; b) a person with strong patriotic feelings, especially one who believes in the superiority of their country over others. Seems pretty benign.

Undermining the meaning of words is a game marxists and post-modernists love to play as a way of chipping away at the foundation of society. It is done on purpose. The definition of nationalist generally strikes me as including good things - as long as the feelings of superiority don't become unreasonably aggressive - and this is where/how the post-modernists get you. If nationalism includes feelings of superiority, that could lead to wars, and everyone knows war is bad so nationalism must be bad. This is the self-flagellation that Europe has put itself through after two world wars. Rather than recognizing mankind's tendency toward violence and admitting to the need to harness those tendencies - Europe blames religion and nations - because surely if there neither existed there would be peace on Earth (give me a break). But on those types of premises, and slowly, through the manipulation of language, the post-modernists undermine the very things that tie our culture together.

The question is to what end?
Well said.

And in the process far too many have been entrapped by the behind-the-curtain intention of divisive polarization.
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy


“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Soren Kierkegaard
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old salt
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by old salt »

cradleandshoot wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:16 pm
HooDat wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:51 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:46 pm
old salt wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:41 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:35 pm But let's not pretend that the GOP, led by Trump, hasn't become dominated by the white nationalist, christian nationalist movement to tremendously ill effect. Election denialism has become a tool for this cult. And two-thirds of the GOP are on board...that ain't "all" but it's domination.

I don't think Trump is the sole problem, I think all the weasels who have bowed before him are fully complicit.
imho -- you are exaggerating any ill effect & misrepresenting the patriotism of millions of white christians.
As a white christian I can agree there are many of us who are fulsomely patriotic. and sure, there are millions like me.

But I ain't a christian nationalist nor a white nationalist, nor the overlap.
And I'm not an election denier, nor am I going to make up, repeat, support stupidly false arguments about voting insecurity.

I think all of that is gross and immensely damaging to the country I love.
And millions of white christians, like me, agree.

But we're not the MAGA cult.
That is one more place they apply the "wedge". It creates all sorts of points of fissure:

First, let's note that there are a lot of very good and reasonable people who are a) white, b) Christian, and c) love their nation.

Let's also acknowledge that there are (abhorrent) people who are "white nationalists" in the way that the left uses the term. Hateful bigots who promote an agenda based on race separation. I believe that these people represent a very, very small percentage of Americans, but I think there are more now than there were 20 years ago for a few reasons.

There are politicians on both sides of the aisle who benefit from racism. The ones who appeal to the bigots I described above and the ones who run around calling white men racists like a spurned pilgrim wife looking for witches in every woman that attracts her husband's eye.

But think about why the term nationalist is now being used as a slur? According to the New Oxford American dictionary nationalist means: i) a person who advocates political independence for a country; b) a person with strong patriotic feelings, especially one who believes in the superiority of their country over others. Seems pretty benign.

Undermining the meaning of words is a game marxists and post-modernists love to play as a way of chipping away at the foundation of society. It is done on purpose. The definition of nationalist generally strikes me as including good things - as long as the feelings of superiority don't become unreasonably aggressive - and this is where/how the post-modernists get you. If nationalism includes feelings of superiority, that could lead to wars, and everyone knows war is bad so nationalism must be bad. This is the self-flagellation that Europe has put itself through after two world wars. Rather than recognizing mankind's tendency toward violence and admitting to the need to harness those tendencies - Europe blames religion and nations - because surely if there neither existed there would be peace on Earth (give me a break). But on those types of premises, and slowly, through the manipulation of language, the post-modernists undermine the very things that tie our culture together.

The question is to what end?
+1, IMO this is the post of the year on this forum. Very well written from every perspective.
Bravo !
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

HooDat wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:51 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:46 pm
old salt wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:41 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:35 pm But let's not pretend that the GOP, led by Trump, hasn't become dominated by the white nationalist, christian nationalist movement to tremendously ill effect. Election denialism has become a tool for this cult. And two-thirds of the GOP are on board...that ain't "all" but it's domination.

I don't think Trump is the sole problem, I think all the weasels who have bowed before him are fully complicit.
imho -- you are exaggerating any ill effect & misrepresenting the patriotism of millions of white christians.
As a white christian I can agree there are many of us who are fulsomely patriotic. and sure, there are millions like me.

But I ain't a christian nationalist nor a white nationalist, nor the overlap.
And I'm not an election denier, nor am I going to make up, repeat, support stupidly false arguments about voting insecurity.

I think all of that is gross and immensely damaging to the country I love.
And millions of white christians, like me, agree.

But we're not the MAGA cult.
That is one more place they apply the "wedge". It creates all sorts of points of fissure:

First, let's note that there are a lot of very good and reasonable people who are a) white, b) Christian, and c) love their nation.

Let's also acknowledge that there are (abhorrent) people who are "white nationalists" in the way that the left uses the term. Hateful bigots who promote an agenda based on race separation. I believe that these people represent a very, very small percentage of Americans, but I think there are more now than there were 20 years ago for a few reasons.

There are politicians on both sides of the aisle who benefit from racism. The ones who appeal to the bigots I described above and the ones who run around calling white men racists like a spurned pilgrim wife looking for witches in every woman that attracts her husband's eye.

But think about why the term nationalist is now being used as a slur? According to the New Oxford American dictionary nationalist means: i) a person who advocates political independence for a country; b) a person with strong patriotic feelings, especially one who believes in the superiority of their country over others. Seems pretty benign.

Undermining the meaning of words is a game marxists and post-modernists love to play as a way of chipping away at the foundation of society. It is done on purpose. The definition of nationalist generally strikes me as including good things - as long as the feelings of superiority don't become unreasonably aggressive - and this is where/how the post-modernists get you. If nationalism includes feelings of superiority, that could lead to wars, and everyone knows war is bad so nationalism must be bad. This is the self-flagellation that Europe has put itself through after two world wars. Rather than recognizing mankind's tendency toward violence and admitting to the need to harness those tendencies - Europe blames religion and nations - because surely if there neither existed there would be peace on Earth (give me a break). But on those types of premises, and slowly, through the manipulation of language, the post-modernists undermine the very things that tie our culture together.

The question is to what end?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

“I wish you would!”
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Kismet
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by Kismet »

HooDat wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:51 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:46 pm
old salt wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:41 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:35 pm But let's not pretend that the GOP, led by Trump, hasn't become dominated by the white nationalist, christian nationalist movement to tremendously ill effect. Election denialism has become a tool for this cult. And two-thirds of the GOP are on board...that ain't "all" but it's domination.

I don't think Trump is the sole problem, I think all the weasels who have bowed before him are fully complicit.
imho -- you are exaggerating any ill effect & misrepresenting the patriotism of millions of white christians.
As a white christian I can agree there are many of us who are fulsomely patriotic. and sure, there are millions like me.

But I ain't a christian nationalist nor a white nationalist, nor the overlap.
And I'm not an election denier, nor am I going to make up, repeat, support stupidly false arguments about voting insecurity.

I think all of that is gross and immensely damaging to the country I love.
And millions of white christians, like me, agree.

But we're not the MAGA cult.
That is one more place they apply the "wedge". It creates all sorts of points of fissure:

First, let's note that there are a lot of very good and reasonable people who are a) white, b) Christian, and c) love their nation.

Let's also acknowledge that there are (abhorrent) people who are "white nationalists" in the way that the left uses the term. Hateful bigots who promote an agenda based on race separation. I believe that these people represent a very, very small percentage of Americans, but I think there are more now than there were 20 years ago for a few reasons.

There are politicians on both sides of the aisle who benefit from racism. The ones who appeal to the bigots I described above and the ones who run around calling white men racists like a spurned pilgrim wife looking for witches in every woman that attracts her husband's eye.

But think about why the term nationalist is now being used as a slur? According to the New Oxford American dictionary nationalist means: i) a person who advocates political independence for a country; b) a person with strong patriotic feelings, especially one who believes in the superiority of their country over others. Seems pretty benign.

Undermining the meaning of words is a game marxists and post-modernists love to play as a way of chipping away at the foundation of society. It is done on purpose. The definition of nationalist generally strikes me as including good things - as long as the feelings of superiority don't become unreasonably aggressive - and this is where/how the post-modernists get you. If nationalism includes feelings of superiority, that could lead to wars, and everyone knows war is bad so nationalism must be bad. This is the self-flagellation that Europe has put itself through after two world wars. Rather than recognizing mankind's tendency toward violence and admitting to the need to harness those tendencies - Europe blames religion and nations - because surely if there neither existed there would be peace on Earth (give me a break). But on those types of premises, and slowly, through the manipulation of language, the post-modernists undermine the very things that tie our culture together.

The question is to what end?
Would be interested in your view of the alleged "patriots" who were convicted in DC court today for seditious conspiracy and obstruction of a federal proceeding? Nothing major, just the certification of a presidential election and a peaceful transfer of power. Lenin (the ultimate marxist) would be spinning in his grave if he wasn't uber-embalmed and on display in glass to this very day at the Kremlin.
Last edited by Kismet on Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

Yep…. Manipulation of language…. It’s all an innocent misunderstanding. Folk too sensitive.

Master Bedroom, Blacklist, Whitelist and Sold Down the River

A July 2020 story by Scottie Andrew and Harmeet Kaur for CNN, Everyday words and phrases that have racist connotations, sheds light on everyday language that has its origin in racist history. They call attention to “master bedroom,” “blacklist,” “whitelist,” and “sold down the river.” While I have never used the latter in my lexicon, I certainly have called our largest bedroom and adjoining bathroom the “master bed and bath;” the preferred language today is “primary bedroom.” I have asked our IT partner to blacklist hundreds of emails that pose as cyberthreats, and on the flipside, I have requested that they whitelist every client and partners’ domain.

Blackball / Black Mark / Black Market / Blacklist / Black Sheep

In July 2020, Twitter announced that it would drop the terms “master,” “slave” and “blacklist” from its code. The words “master” and “slave” have become “leader” and “follower” or “primary” and “replica,” while “blacklist” has become “denylist.” I like “denylist,” and would go so far as to call it a “blocklist.”

An article by Brittany Wong for Huffington Post says it best:

The symbolism of white as positive and black as negative is pervasive in our culture. Watts-Jones has highlighted many terms with negative meanings that reference blackness. In the English language, she wrote in 2004, color is “related to extortion (blackmail), disrepute (black mark), rejection (blackball), banishment (blacklist), impurity (‘not the driven snow’) and illicitness (black market).”

“The Black power movement brought front and center the way the term ‘black’ is used with rare exception to convey a derogatory, devalued meaning,” she told HuffPost. “The meaning of these phrases is always something undesirable — evil, depression, gloomy, immoral.”

Recently, while having a socially distanced conversation about religion with two Black friends, I referred to someone as the “black sheep of the family” because she defected from the preferred religion of her parents. I immediately caught myself and apologized, vowing to try never to use the term again. While they both said that they had not taken offense, I offended myself. I am grateful, at least, that I have become aware of racist language and am trying to do better.

Cakewalk

Rooted in enslavement in the antebellum South, some Black slaves spent Sundays dressing up and dancing in a way of ridiculing enslavers and the white upper classes. They competed for a cake, hence the name. Regarded as a fun and leisurely weekend activity, “cakewalk” became associated with easy tasks. Cakewalks didn’t end with slavery. For decades, they remained (with cake prizes) a part of African American life, but at the same time white actors in blackface incorporated the act into minstrel shows, turning what began as a satire of white elites into a racist caricature of Black people.

Cotton Picking

In 2018 Fox News commentator, David Bossie, had to apologize for using the racist remark, “you’re out of your cotton-picking mind.” A native of Philadelphia, I must admit that before I married my husband, I had no idea that “cotton picking” was racist. In fact, 20+ years ago, I had never seen cotton growing on farms. I used the phrase, like so many others, because I had heard it while growing up. I remember the day that I said “cotton picking” in front of my husband and his Texas-born mother, both of whom shot me a look and then simultaneously asked me if I knew the phrase was racist. Since then, I never have used it again.

The phrase “cotton picking” has racial overtones, particularly against southern Black slaves who were the pickers of cotton for much of American history. According to JR Thorpe’s article, 5 English Phrases with Serious Racist History, “Cotton-picking is usually used as a stand-in for ‘damn,’ to make it more socially acceptable than swearing (ironically enough).” He notes, “If you’re not from the South, you may have heard the adjective “cotton-picking” for the first time from a Bugs Bunny cartoon from 1952.”

Crack the Whip / Whip-Cracker

According to the Boston Globe, “Crack the Whip is an expression for using one’s authority to urge subordinates to work harder or behave better. The article notes that the phrase has origins in 17th-century horse-drawn wagon drivers. The belief that “crack the whip” is not racist was upheld by a British employment tribunal in May 2020, in a case where a Black nurse claimed that she had been discriminated against when the expression was used by her London-based boss.

While the origin of the saying remains in dispute, it is safe to say that the phrase also has ugly associations with chattel slavery.

Another similar phrase is “whip-cracker” which is suspected to be the longer form of “cracker” which also has negative connotations. Jelani Cobb, a historian at the University of Connecticut told NPR that “cracker,” a word used for Anglo insults, was first noted in the mid-18th century. It was used to refer to poor whites, particularly those inhabiting the frontier regions of Maryland, Virginia, and Georgia. It is suspected that it was a shortened version of “whip-cracker,” since their manual labor involved driving livestock with a whip (not to mention the other brutal arenas where those skills were employed.) Over the course of time it came to represent a person of lower caste or criminal disposition.

Freeholder

A term commonly used in the New Jersey government, Governor Philip D. Murphy, recently renamed the office of “freeholder” to “commissioner.” The term “freeholder” dates to the state’s 1776 Constitution when only white men could own land. Murphy Tweeted, “As our nation tears down symbols of injustice, let us tear down words born from racism.”



Grandfathered In / Grandfather Clause

While the meaning is to be exempt from a law that has recently been adopted, the terms “grandfathered in” and “grandfather clause” have their origin in America’s racial history. While the 15th Amendment, ratified in 1870, prohibited racial discrimination in voting, Blacks were kept from exercising their constitutional right due to states’ literacy tests, poll taxes and constitution quizzes. These “tests” were designed to disenfranchise Blacks. If they did not pass or pay the tax, they could not register to vote. These laws also hindered poor American whites. As a result, several states passed laws that made men (yes, I said men) eligible to vote if they were descendants of men who were eligible to vote before 1876 (a.k.a. white men). This was called the grandfather clause. In Aug. 2020, a Massachusetts Appeals Court decided to stop using the term “grandfathering” which was detailed in the footnote of a zoning dispute opinion.

Gypped / Gyp / Jipped / Jip

The term, gypped, comes from the word Gypsy which is a derogatory name for the Romani people (also known as Roma) who originated in northern India and migrated around the world for more than a millennium. This culture has been stereotyped as thieves and child abductors which led to the use of the word “gypped.” Alternatives include ripped off or cheated – neither of which has its origins in racism.

Jimmies

There has long been a debate in the Northeast as to whether we call those sugary ice cream toppings “jimmies” or “sprinkles.” In Philadelphia, where I grew up, and in Southern New Jersey, were we vacationed every summer, I always asked for my chocolate custard with “jimmies.” While scholars don’t agree on the origin of the word, I once again had no idea that “jimmies” could have a negative origin. Some believe that the brown sprinkles “looked like little Black people” while others believe “this comes from the Jim Crow laws used to segregate the South, with jimmies representing those Black people bound by these laws.” No matter the origin, I have started to refer to those sugary treats as “chocolate sprinkles” – my preferred choice over rainbow sprinkles.

Long Time, No See / No Can Do

This one is another eye opener for me. It is traced back to a Boston Sunday Globe article in the late 1800s. The phrase applied to a Native American speaker with broken English and was meant to stereotype natives as unintelligent. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, “this type of isolating construction would have been unusual for the indigenous languages of North America.” Rather, it originated as a way for white writers to mock Native American speech, and that of non-native English speakers from other places like China. By the 1920s, it had become an ordinary part of the American vernacular.

“No can do” has similar origins in making fun of non-native English speakers.

Low Hanging Fruit

I never knew that the phrase “low hanging fruit” could be considered racist. I have always equated it with picking fruit from an orchard – literally. Recently, after using the phrase, a lawyer brought it to my attention. I am grateful.

According to Mary-Frances Winters of The Inclusion Solution:

“Low hanging fruit has a very different meaning. Some synonyms for the phrase from a business perspective include quick wins, no-brainers, easy rewards, easily accomplished work, and high return, low risk item. However, perhaps we can understand for someone who witnessed lynching or who knew of loved ones who were lynched, the term might remind them of these dreadful practices.

Winters also notes that while there is “no direct connection to lynching,” she recommends “that we begin to be more sensitive to what we say because seemingly innocuous phrases can conjure up very different meanings for some.”

Off the Reservation

The Wall Street Journal refers to “Off the Reservation” as a Phrase with a Dark Past. Journalist, Ben Zimmer, noted in 2016 that “Hillary Clinton made a regrettable choice of words in a CNN interview last week, when she was asked about Donald Trump’s attacks on her. ‘I have a lot of experience dealing with men who sometimes get off the reservation in the way they behave and how they speak,’ she told Jake Tapper.”

Suzan Shown Harjo of Indian Country Today used Clinton’s faux pas as a teachable moment. She notes that the term is “hurtful or offensive to many Native Peoples today.”

The context of its original meaning comes from Native American peoples being restricted to reservations created by the U.S. government, and their freedom being severely limited by the terms of the treaties they were often forced to sign.

Paddy Wagon

Racism comes in many forms and includes negative language against immigrants as well as Black, brown and indigenous populations. Police van and patrol wagons were nicknamed “Paddy Wagons” in the 1930’s when prejudice against Irish immigrants was common. “Paddy” is a slang word for a person of Irish decent. The phrase refers to Irish people being arrested.

Peanut Gallery

Used to describe hecklers, individuals sharing unwanted criticism, or younger people with contrary opinions, “peanut gallery” has roots in the era of vaudeville. The vaudeville theaters of the late 19th and early 20th centuries referred to the cheapest seas, which often were occupied by Black and poor people, as the peanut gallery.

Pot Calling the Kettle Black

As a youngster, I heard this idiom time and time again. It was used when people wanted to draw attention to hypocrisy. In researching the origin of the phrase, most scholars agree it dates to the early 1600s. At that time, most pots and kettles were made with cast iron, a material that acquires streaks of black smoke when heated over a flame.

There is, however, a valid argument that the use of the word “black” in the phrase casts the color as a negative attribute, connoting that blackness is undesirable. Many thus believe that this negative connotation creates a stigma attached to blackness.

Slave

There is no question that the term “slave” refers to people who have been taken against their will and forced into servitude. While the word “slave” is not racist per se, instead of referring to someone as having been a slave, the language choice that gives power back to a given person is to say “enslaved person.”

While people have been enslaved for millenniums, the history of slavery in the Americas dates to the 1600s when the Portuguese took human cargo from Africa to Mexico. For centuries thereafter, Black and brown people were subject to forced labor, being bought and sold like livestock. If you are not familiar with the history of slavery in America, The New York Times Magazine goes into great detail in A Brief History of Slavery That You Didn’t Learn in School.

Tipping Point

The title of a book, this phrase is used often when describing the point of no return – that critical moment in time when change becomes inevitable. According to Merriam-Webster, it was applied to one phenomenon in particular: white flight. “In the 1950s, as white people abandoned urban areas for the suburbs in huge numbers, journalists began using the phrase tipping point in relation to the percentage of minority neighbors it took to trigger this reaction in white city residents.”

Uppity

According to a 2011 article in The Atlantic, “uppity” is a “term that racist southerners used for Black people who didn’t know their place.” A pejorative term, uppity conveys racism much like “hysterical” is used to connote an overly reactive woman. This term also was used by whites as an epithet during the Jim Crow era to describe newly freed Blacks who were not differential enough.

Urban

The term “urban” was one that I used to use to describe the inner-city where I grew up. I would say that I grew up in an “urban environment.” Today, I choose to say that I grew up in a “metropolitan area,” “city,” or “metropolitan environment.”

In recent months, major record labels such as Warner Music Group, the Grammys and radio stations are distancing themselves from the category of “urban music” amid demands for racial equality in the music industry. In June 2020, they announced that they would both stop using “urban” to categorize music made by Black artists and will use “hip-hop” or R&B instead.

NPR’s Cate Young noted, “On June 5, in response to the rapidly increasing momentum behind the fight for Black lives in the U.S. and around the world, Republic Records announced that it would remove ‘urban’ from the label’s verbiage in describing departments, employee titles and music genres, citing their belief that ‘over time the meaning and connotations of ‘urban’ have shifted and developed into a generalization of Black people in many sectors of the music industry, including employees and music by Black artists.”


Wetback | Mojado

The slur, wetback or “mojado” as it is known in Spanish, is one I never heard growing up in Philadelphia. I heard it for the first time during a visit to Texas in the late 1990’s. I had no idea what it meant and literally though the person was talking about alligators. Much to my surprise, the slur does not refer to large reptiles. The word “wetback” refers to immigrants who illegally crossed into the U.S. According to the Los Angeles Times, “The term, originally coined after Mexicans illegally entered the U.S. by swimming or wading across the Rio Grande, evolved to include a broader group of immigrants who snuck into the country on foot or in cars. The Spanish translation espaldas mojadas, is typically shortened to just mojado or mojada, depending on the person’s gender.” This particular slur has a long history in politics in the United States and is one that I hope to never hear spoken again.
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

HooDat wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:51 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:46 pm
old salt wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:41 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:35 pm But let's not pretend that the GOP, led by Trump, hasn't become dominated by the white nationalist, christian nationalist movement to tremendously ill effect. Election denialism has become a tool for this cult. And two-thirds of the GOP are on board...that ain't "all" but it's domination.

I don't think Trump is the sole problem, I think all the weasels who have bowed before him are fully complicit.
imho -- you are exaggerating any ill effect & misrepresenting the patriotism of millions of white christians.
As a white christian I can agree there are many of us who are fulsomely patriotic. and sure, there are millions like me.

But I ain't a christian nationalist nor a white nationalist, nor the overlap.
And I'm not an election denier, nor am I going to make up, repeat, support stupidly false arguments about voting insecurity.

I think all of that is gross and immensely damaging to the country I love.
And millions of white christians, like me, agree.

But we're not the MAGA cult.
That is one more place they apply the "wedge". It creates all sorts of points of fissure:

First, let's note that there are a lot of very good and reasonable people who are a) white, b) Christian, and c) love their nation.

Let's also acknowledge that there are (abhorrent) people who are "white nationalists" in the way that the left uses the term. Hateful bigots who promote an agenda based on race separation. I believe that these people represent a very, very small percentage of Americans, but I think there are more now than there were 20 years ago for a few reasons.

There are politicians on both sides of the aisle who benefit from racism. The ones who appeal to the bigots I described above and the ones who run around calling white men racists like a spurned pilgrim wife looking for witches in every woman that attracts her husband's eye.

But think about why the term nationalist is now being used as a slur? According to the New Oxford American dictionary nationalist means: i) a person who advocates political independence for a country; b) a person with strong patriotic feelings, especially one who believes in the superiority of their country over others. Seems pretty benign.

Undermining the meaning of words is a game marxists and post-modernists love to play as a way of chipping away at the foundation of society. It is done on purpose. The definition of nationalist generally strikes me as including good things - as long as the feelings of superiority don't become unreasonably aggressive - and this is where/how the post-modernists get you. If nationalism includes feelings of superiority, that could lead to wars, and everyone knows war is bad so nationalism must be bad. This is the self-flagellation that Europe has put itself through after two world wars. Rather than recognizing mankind's tendency toward violence and admitting to the need to harness those tendencies - Europe blames religion and nations - because surely if there neither existed there would be peace on Earth (give me a break). But on those types of premises, and slowly, through the manipulation of language, the post-modernists undermine the very things that tie our culture together.

The question is to what end?
As this was directed at my post, I find some of the responses to be predictable as well.

First, you seem to get my point that I'm white, christian and patriotic. Yup, millions like me.

But I ain't a white nationalist (a form of ethnic or racially based national identity) nor a christian nationalist (a form of religiously based national identity). Nor the overlap.

Unfortunately, neither of these types of nationalists in America today are small groups. Yes, extremists with tattoos or speaking in tongues or whatever are relatively small, but these ideologies are indeed mainstreamed today in the GOP and fostered daily in right wing media.

It's a serious problem, as these are inherently anti-American ideologies.

This is not a wedge, it's a plea to reject these forms of bigotry wrapped in faux patriotism.
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

Stewart Rhodes convicted of seditious conspiracy.
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

Seacoaster(1) wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:03 pm Stewart Rhodes convicted of seditious conspiracy.
That’s a good win for the USA. Undermining democracy should not be tolerated.
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by NattyBohChamps04 »

Seacoaster(1) wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:03 pm Stewart Rhodes convicted of seditious conspiracy.
Give the guy some slack, he was shot in the face by a terrorist...

"Rhodes, who wears an eye patch after accidentally shooting himself in the face with his own gun, is one of the most prominent defendants of the roughly 900 charged so far in connection with the attack."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 31436.html
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

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HooDat wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:51 pm But think about why the term nationalist is now being used as a slur?
Simple!

Because it's not real. It's not actually doing a thing to put Americans first. Or anything to take working American into the 21st century.

It's a bunch of culture war nonsense that does nothing but line the pockets of the liberal elite that these cats pretend to be against.

You have liberal friends, HooDat? How much richer were they before and then after Trump?

Now picture the average TrumpNation working man. How are they doing? How's inflation treating them? And what are these "nationalists" plans to help them?

Nationalist is nonsense. That's why it's used as a slur, my man.
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

a fan wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:04 pm
HooDat wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:51 pm But think about why the term nationalist is now being used as a slur?
Simple!

Because it's not real. It's not actually doing a thing to put Americans first. Or anything to take working American into the 21st century.

It's a bunch of culture war nonsense that does nothing but line the pockets of the liberal elite that these cats pretend to be against.

You have liberal friends, HooDat? How much richer were they before and then after Trump?

Now picture the average TrumpNation working man. How are they doing? How's inflation treating them? And what are these "nationalists" plans to help them?

Nationalist is nonsense. That's why it's used as a slur, my man.
https://www.salon.com/2006/05/12/goldberg_14/

"Kingdom Coming: The Rise of Christian Nationalism"
Across the United States, religious activists are organizing to establish an American theocracy. A frightening look inside the growing right-wing movement.

On November 13, 2003, Moore was removed from his position as chief justice of the Alabama Supreme Court after he defied a judge's order to remove the 2.6-ton Ten Commandments monument he'd installed in the Montgomery judicial building. On the coasts, he seemed a ridiculous figure, the latest in a line of grotesque Southern anachronisms. After all, Moore is a man who, in a 2002 court decision awarding custody of three children to their allegedly abusive father over their lesbian mother, called homosexuality "abhorrent, immoral, detestable, a crime against nature, and a violation of the laws of nature and of nature's God upon which this Nation and our laws are predicated," and argued, "The State carries the power of the sword, that is, the power to prohibit conduct with physical penalties, such as confinement and even execution. It must use that power to prevent the subversion of children toward this lifestyle, to not encourage a criminal lifestyle." He's a man who writes rhyming poetry decrying the teaching of evolution and who fought against the Alabama ballot measure to remove segregationist language from the state constitution.

Mainstream GOP in the year 2022
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by old salt »

Typical Lax Dad wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:16 pm https://www.salon.com/2006/05/12/goldberg_14/

"Kingdom Coming: The Rise of Christian Nationalism"
Across the United States, religious activists are organizing to establish an American theocracy. A frightening look inside the growing right-wing movement.

On November 13, 2003, Moore was removed from his position as chief justice of the Alabama Supreme Court after he defied a judge's order to remove the 2.6-ton Ten Commandments monument he'd installed in the Montgomery judicial building. On the coasts, he seemed a ridiculous figure, the latest in a line of grotesque Southern anachronisms. After all, Moore is a man who, in a 2002 court decision awarding custody of three children to their allegedly abusive father over their lesbian mother, called homosexuality "abhorrent, immoral, detestable, a crime against nature, and a violation of the laws of nature and of nature's God upon which this Nation and our laws are predicated," and argued, "The State carries the power of the sword, that is, the power to prohibit conduct with physical penalties, such as confinement and even execution. It must use that power to prevent the subversion of children toward this lifestyle, to not encourage a criminal lifestyle." He's a man who writes rhyming poetry decrying the teaching of evolution and who fought against the Alabama ballot measure to remove segregationist language from the state constitution.

Mainstream GOP in the year 2022
:lol: :lol: :lol: ...that was 19 years ago. When's the next coming ?
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