All Things Russia & Ukraine

[Typical Lax Dad]

Some of you boys need to pat yourselves on your backs.

old salt has clearly stated this more than once but that doesn't matter to you boys, it's pile on salty time again.

What "tropes" ? As I've stated --
-- I made no implication or reference to any religion.
-- I was not aware that 2 of the 3 "influencers" I referenced were Jewish. How would I know that ?
-- I am not familiar with the "dinner party trope" which MDLF76 so enthusiastically & tastelessly embellished.

This kind of thing has happened to me more than once on this board, you read it one way when it was meant another
but that doesn't matter your minds are made up and that's not going to change. The stones are going to be thrown,
careful not to break any of the windows in those glass houses, fellas. Not one of you is the least bit hesitant to say
some mighty offensive stuff to salty...not one.

I’m not.

[MDlaxfan76]

Some of you boys need to pat yourselves on your backs.

old salt has clearly stated this more than once but that doesn't matter to you boys, it's pile on salty time again.

What "tropes" ? As I've stated --
-- I made no implication or reference to any religion.
-- I was not aware that 2 of the 3 "influencers" I referenced were Jewish. How would I know that ?
-- I am not familiar with the "dinner party trope" which MDLF76 so enthusiastically & tastelessly embellished.

This kind of thing has happened to me more than once on this board, you read it one way when it was meant another
but that doesn't matter your minds are made up and that's not going to change. The stones are going to be thrown,
careful not to break any of the windows in those glass houses, fellas. Not one of you is the least bit hesitant to say
some mighty offensive stuff to salty...not one.

DMac,
As the person who pointed out the trope and asked whether it was a conscious or unconscious usage, I believe I gave Salty a huge amount of room and opportunity to simply say "oops, I'm sorry, didn't mean it that way, etc"

But he chose to double, triple, quadruple down...still doing so.

I don't think others addressed this until after he refused to just say "oops' sorry..."

I'm still open to him doing so, and likewise welcome his further explication of his views. I can't speak for others.

[MDlaxfan76]

Leaving out Bremer...and Will..Kirkpatrick...even Moynihan, all of whom were described as neoconservatives.

Not sure Bremer would qualify as a neocon either. He entered the Foreign Service out of graduate school & rose to prominence working for Henry Kissinger, in & out of govt. Kissinger is a realist who still often differs with neocons. Bremer is lumped in with all the neocons he worked with in the Bush admin. Moynihan rejects the neocon label for himself, although he was good friends with the neocon founders. Was Will ever a liberal, or a conservative from the start of his writing ?
https://nationalinterest.org/feature/ge ... cons-11252

Yes, Bremer is/was definitely a neocon.
Prominently so, serving in the Bush Admin.

What specifically qualifies Bremer as a neocon ? He was appointed to do a job, which he did. He did not take us into the war.

" globalism" is not antisemitic. You can't disqualify everything.

He was just following orders???

Listen, read the links I provided you thoroughly and then we can discuss the tropes.
Please do that work first.

[old salt]

Leaving out Bremer...and Will..Kirkpatrick...even Moynihan, all of whom were described as neoconservatives.

Not sure Bremer would qualify as a neocon either. He entered the Foreign Service out of graduate school & rose to prominence working for Henry Kissinger, in & out of govt. Kissinger is a realist who still often differs with neocons. Bremer is lumped in with all the neocons he worked with in the Bush admin. Moynihan rejects the neocon label for himself, although he was good friends with the neocon founders. Was Will ever a liberal, or a conservative from the start of his writing ?
https://nationalinterest.org/feature/ge ... cons-11252

Yes, Bremer is/was definitely a neocon.
Prominently so, serving in the Bush Admin.

What specifically qualifies Bremer as a neocon ? He was appointed to do a job, which he did. He did not take us into the war.

" globalism" is not antisemitic. You can't disqualify everything.

He was just following orders???

Listen, read the links I provided you thoroughly and then we can discuss the tropes.
Please do that work first.

Do some work yourself.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7249/mg847cc
As U.S. forces began their invasion of Iraq in late March of 2003, L. Paul Bremer received a phone call from Lewis (“Scooter”) Libby, Vice President Dick Cheney’s chief of staff. “He asked whether I would be interested in coming back into the government to serve in Iraq,” recalled Bremer. “I couldn’t serve for long,” Bremer responded, “since I am busy running my company.” At the time, Bremer was chairman and chief executive officer of Marsh Crisis Consulting, a crisis management firm owned by the financial services firm Marsh & McLennan. Libby replied that “it wouldn’t be a full-time job

[DocBarrister]

Some of you boys need to pat yourselves on your backs.

old salt has clearly stated this more than once but that doesn't matter to you boys, it's pile on salty time again.

What "tropes" ? As I've stated --
-- I made no implication or reference to any religion.
-- I was not aware that 2 of the 3 "influencers" I referenced were Jewish. How would I know that ?
-- I am not familiar with the "dinner party trope" which MDLF76 so enthusiastically & tastelessly embellished.

This kind of thing has happened to me more than once on this board, you read it one way when it was meant another
but that doesn't matter your minds are made up and that's not going to change. The stones are going to be thrown,
careful not to break any of the windows in those glass houses, fellas. Not one of you is the least bit hesitant to say
some mighty offensive stuff to salty...not one.

NO.

You see, old salt’s comments were such a classic anti-Semitic trope that it practically defines what that is.

There is no room for interpretation. I think old salt should just apologize and we can move on.

But we certainly can’t let him off the hook if he refuses to even acknowledge how offensive his statements were and are.

As the recent Kanye West and Adidas controversy has shown, folks seem to feel more free these days to express their malignant anti-Semitism.

We shouldn’t allow that here.

Frankly, you are trying to make a mole hill out of a mountain.

Anti-Semitism and anti-Semitic tropes should not be tolerated on this forum.

DocBarrister

[MDlaxfan76]

Leaving out Bremer...and Will..Kirkpatrick...even Moynihan, all of whom were described as neoconservatives.

Not sure Bremer would qualify as a neocon either. He entered the Foreign Service out of graduate school & rose to prominence working for Henry Kissinger, in & out of govt. Kissinger is a realist who still often differs with neocons. Bremer is lumped in with all the neocons he worked with in the Bush admin. Moynihan rejects the neocon label for himself, although he was good friends with the neocon founders. Was Will ever a liberal, or a conservative from the start of his writing ?
https://nationalinterest.org/feature/ge ... cons-11252

Yes, Bremer is/was definitely a neocon.
Prominently so, serving in the Bush Admin.

What specifically qualifies Bremer as a neocon ? He was appointed to do a job, which he did. He did not take us into the war.

" globalism" is not antisemitic. You can't disqualify everything.

He was just following orders???

Listen, read the links I provided you thoroughly and then we can discuss the tropes.
Please do that work first.

Do some work yourself.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7249/mg847cc
As U.S. forces began their invasion of Iraq in late March of 2003, L. Paul Bremer received a phone call from Lewis (“Scooter”) Libby, Vice President Dick Cheney’s chief of staff. “He asked whether I would be interested in coming back into the government to serve in Iraq,” recalled Bremer. “I couldn’t serve for long,” Bremer responded, “since I am busy running my company.” At the time, Bremer was chairman and chief executive officer of Marsh Crisis Consulting, a crisis management firm owned by the financial services firm Marsh & McLennan. Libby replied that “it wouldn’t be a full-time job

So what?

Bremer was a prominent neoconservative, ideologically and in practice. That he's a smart guy and was running a major company and making big bank has nothing to do with where he was ideologically.

Yes, please do the homework on the anti-semitic tropes.

I try to read the things you post, under the positive assumption that I can learn new things.
I typically find that you haven't offered them up idly...and I take the time to think about them and to respond in turn...often not in full agreement, but actually responsive.

I'm again trying to give you the benefit of the doubt too.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Leaving out Bremer...and Will..Kirkpatrick...even Moynihan, all of whom were described as neoconservatives.

Not sure Bremer would qualify as a neocon either. He entered the Foreign Service out of graduate school & rose to prominence working for Henry Kissinger, in & out of govt. Kissinger is a realist who still often differs with neocons. Bremer is lumped in with all the neocons he worked with in the Bush admin. Moynihan rejects the neocon label for himself, although he was good friends with the neocon founders. Was Will ever a liberal, or a conservative from the start of his writing ?
https://nationalinterest.org/feature/ge ... cons-11252

Yes, Bremer is/was definitely a neocon.
Prominently so, serving in the Bush Admin.

What specifically qualifies Bremer as a neocon ? He was appointed to do a job, which he did. He did not take us into the war.

" globalism" is not antisemitic. You can't disqualify everything.

He was just following orders???

Listen, read the links I provided you thoroughly and then we can discuss the tropes.
Please do that work first.

Do some work yourself.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7249/mg847cc
As U.S. forces began their invasion of Iraq in late March of 2003, L. Paul Bremer received a phone call from Lewis (“Scooter”) Libby, Vice President Dick Cheney’s chief of staff. “He asked whether I would be interested in coming back into the government to serve in Iraq,” recalled Bremer. “I couldn’t serve for long,” Bremer responded, “since I am busy running my company.” At the time, Bremer was chairman and chief executive officer of Marsh Crisis Consulting, a crisis management firm owned by the financial services firm Marsh & McLennan. Libby replied that “it wouldn’t be a full-time job

JSTOR. Friends of mine! It’s really a small world.

[MDlaxfan76]

Some of you boys need to pat yourselves on your backs.

old salt has clearly stated this more than once but that doesn't matter to you boys, it's pile on salty time again.

What "tropes" ? As I've stated --
-- I made no implication or reference to any religion.
-- I was not aware that 2 of the 3 "influencers" I referenced were Jewish. How would I know that ?
-- I am not familiar with the "dinner party trope" which MDLF76 so enthusiastically & tastelessly embellished.

This kind of thing has happened to me more than once on this board, you read it one way when it was meant another
but that doesn't matter your minds are made up and that's not going to change. The stones are going to be thrown,
careful not to break any of the windows in those glass houses, fellas. Not one of you is the least bit hesitant to say
some mighty offensive stuff to salty...not one.

NO.

You see, old salt’s comments were such a classic anti-Semitic trope that it practically defines what that is.

There is no room for interpretation. I think old salt should just apologize and we can move on.

But we certainly can’t let him off the hook if he refuses to even acknowledge how offensive his statements were and are.

As the recent Kanye West and Adidas controversy has shown, folks seem to feel more free these days to express their malignant anti-Semitism.

We shouldn’t allow that here.

Frankly, you are trying to make a mole hill out of a mountain.

Anti-Semitism and anti-Semitic tropes should not be tolerated on this forum.

DocBarrister

well..." not tolerated" could be understood a variety of ways.

I want actual trolls to be put out, but those who engage in direct discussion and provide some basis for hope in mutual learning, personally I feel we should "tolerate" their participation, even when we think they've gone astray. People err, they make mistakes of omission or commission, and they may well have the capacity to change their views...I know I err...and I hope that if I did so, I'd be given a chance to learn...

BUT if you mean "not tolerated" as such should be vigorously challenged, then I heartily agree...

[old salt]

Leaving out Bremer...and Will..Kirkpatrick...even Moynihan, all of whom were described as neoconservatives.

Not sure Bremer would qualify as a neocon either. He entered the Foreign Service out of graduate school & rose to prominence working for Henry Kissinger, in & out of govt. Kissinger is a realist who still often differs with neocons. Bremer is lumped in with all the neocons he worked with in the Bush admin. Moynihan rejects the neocon label for himself, although he was good friends with the neocon founders. Was Will ever a liberal, or a conservative from the start of his writing ?
https://nationalinterest.org/feature/ge ... cons-11252

Yes, Bremer is/was definitely a neocon.
Prominently so, serving in the Bush Admin.

What specifically qualifies Bremer as a neocon ? He was appointed to do a job, which he did. He did not take us into the war.

" globalism" is not antisemitic. You can't disqualify everything.

He was just following orders???

Listen, read the links I provided you thoroughly and then we can discuss the tropes.
Please do that work first.

Do some work yourself.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7249/mg847cc
As U.S. forces began their invasion of Iraq in late March of 2003, L. Paul Bremer received a phone call from Lewis (“Scooter”) Libby, Vice President Dick Cheney’s chief of staff. “He asked whether I would be interested in coming back into the government to serve in Iraq,” recalled Bremer. “I couldn’t serve for long,” Bremer responded, “since I am busy running my company.” At the time, Bremer was chairman and chief executive officer of Marsh Crisis Consulting, a crisis management firm owned by the financial services firm Marsh & McLennan. Libby replied that “it wouldn’t be a full-time job

So what?

Bremer was a prominent neoconservative, ideologically and in practice. That he's a smart guy and was running a major company and making big bank has nothing to do with where he was ideologically.

Yes, please do the homework on the anti-semitic tropes.

I try to read the things you post, under the positive assumption that I can learn new things.
I typically find that you haven't offered them up idly...and I take the time to think about them and to respond in turn...often not in full agreement, but actually responsive.

I'm again trying to give you the benefit of the doubt too.

What makes Bremmer a NeoCon ?

I read the refs you provided. I reject the the stigma of antisemitism applied to "globalism" or "new world order".

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dic ... /globalism

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/united-s ... orld-order
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/ADA398504
The phrase new world order has been widely used on the political scene since first publicly coined by former president, George Bush. Although quickly adopted as the catch phrase of the 1990s, few people actually agree on what new world order really means. ...new world order, while elusive in definition, is most frequently used to describe aspects of the post Cold War international scenario...

[DMac]

Some of you boys need to pat yourselves on your backs.

old salt has clearly stated this more than once but that doesn't matter to you boys, it's pile on salty time again.

What "tropes" ? As I've stated --
-- I made no implication or reference to any religion.
-- I was not aware that 2 of the 3 "influencers" I referenced were Jewish. How would I know that ?
-- I am not familiar with the "dinner party trope" which MDLF76 so enthusiastically & tastelessly embellished.

This kind of thing has happened to me more than once on this board, you read it one way when it was meant another
but that doesn't matter your minds are made up and that's not going to change. The stones are going to be thrown,
careful not to break any of the windows in those glass houses, fellas. Not one of you is the least bit hesitant to say
some mighty offensive stuff to salty...not one.

I’m not.

You're just part of the not one, no?
You might be the most offensive one though (with respect to salty).

[DMac]

Gotta wonder why there are so few people who participate here anymore.
Anybody?

[Typical Lax Dad]

Some of you boys need to pat yourselves on your backs.

old salt has clearly stated this more than once but that doesn't matter to you boys, it's pile on salty time again.

What "tropes" ? As I've stated --
-- I made no implication or reference to any religion.
-- I was not aware that 2 of the 3 "influencers" I referenced were Jewish. How would I know that ?
-- I am not familiar with the "dinner party trope" which MDLF76 so enthusiastically & tastelessly embellished.

This kind of thing has happened to me more than once on this board, you read it one way when it was meant another
but that doesn't matter your minds are made up and that's not going to change. The stones are going to be thrown,
careful not to break any of the windows in those glass houses, fellas. Not one of you is the least bit hesitant to say
some mighty offensive stuff to salty...not one.

I’m not.

You're just part of the not one, no?
You might be the most offensive one though (with respect to salty).

I know I am. I don’t deny it. I don’t lie, I don’t deceive and I don’t BS people.

[DMac]

So offending is quite alright....well, depending on who is doing the offending, of course.
You sound like a perfect human being. Welcome to club, I am too.

[old salt]

Leaving out Bremer...and Will..Kirkpatrick...even Moynihan, all of whom were described as neoconservatives.

Not sure Bremer would qualify as a neocon either. He entered the Foreign Service out of graduate school & rose to prominence working for Henry Kissinger, in & out of govt. Kissinger is a realist who still often differs with neocons. Bremer is lumped in with all the neocons he worked with in the Bush admin. Moynihan rejects the neocon label for himself, although he was good friends with the neocon founders. Was Will ever a liberal, or a conservative from the start of his writing ?
https://nationalinterest.org/feature/ge ... cons-11252

Yes, Bremer is/was definitely a neocon.
Prominently so, serving in the Bush Admin.

What specifically qualifies Bremer as a neocon ? He was appointed to do a job, which he did. He did not take us into the war.

" globalism" is not antisemitic. You can't disqualify everything.

He was just following orders???

Yes. He was carrying out the assignment he was given to the best of his abilities.

He was not in govt or a prominent public voice for invading Iraq.
After his time as CPA, he quietly departed the scene & accepted his role as scapegoat with grace.

https://www.wilsonquarterly.com/quarter ... -scapegoat

[Typical Lax Dad]

So offending is quite alright....well, depending on who is doing the offending, of course.
You sound like a perfect human being. Welcome to club, I am too.

Nobody on this planet is perfect. I can admit to being wrong. There is nothing wrong with being wrong. No shame in it. Also, nothing wrong with a difference in OPINION. You ever see me claim my comments aren’t offensive? Legitimate question.

[old salt]

Some of you boys need to pat yourselves on your backs.

old salt has clearly stated this more than once but that doesn't matter to you boys, it's pile on salty time again.

What "tropes" ? As I've stated --
-- I made no implication or reference to any religion.
-- I was not aware that 2 of the 3 "influencers" I referenced were Jewish. How would I know that ?
-- I am not familiar with the "dinner party trope" which MDLF76 so enthusiastically & tastelessly embellished.

This kind of thing has happened to me more than once on this board, you read it one way when it was meant another
but that doesn't matter your minds are made up and that's not going to change. The stones are going to be thrown,
careful not to break any of the windows in those glass houses, fellas. Not one of you is the least bit hesitant to say
some mighty offensive stuff to salty...not one.

I’m not.

You're just part of the not one, no?
You might be the most offensive one though (with respect to salty).

I know I am. I don’t deny it. I don’t lie, I don’t deceive and I don’t BS people.

TLD shares Feraud's obsession.

[DocBarrister]

Some of you boys need to pat yourselves on your backs.

old salt has clearly stated this more than once but that doesn't matter to you boys, it's pile on salty time again.

What "tropes" ? As I've stated --
-- I made no implication or reference to any religion.
-- I was not aware that 2 of the 3 "influencers" I referenced were Jewish. How would I know that ?
-- I am not familiar with the "dinner party trope" which MDLF76 so enthusiastically & tastelessly embellished.

This kind of thing has happened to me more than once on this board, you read it one way when it was meant another
but that doesn't matter your minds are made up and that's not going to change. The stones are going to be thrown,
careful not to break any of the windows in those glass houses, fellas. Not one of you is the least bit hesitant to say
some mighty offensive stuff to salty...not one.

NO.

You see, old salt’s comments were such a classic anti-Semitic trope that it practically defines what that is.

There is no room for interpretation. I think old salt should just apologize and we can move on.

But we certainly can’t let him off the hook if he refuses to even acknowledge how offensive his statements were and are.

As the recent Kanye West and Adidas controversy has shown, folks seem to feel more free these days to express their malignant anti-Semitism.

We shouldn’t allow that here.

Frankly, you are trying to make a mole hill out of a mountain.

Anti-Semitism and anti-Semitic tropes should not be tolerated on this forum.

DocBarrister

well..." not tolerated" could be understood a variety of ways.

I want actual trolls to be put out, but those who engage in direct discussion and provide some basis for hope in mutual learning, personally I feel we should "tolerate" their participation, even when we think they've gone astray. People err, they make mistakes of omission or commission, and they may well have the capacity to change their views...I know I err...and I hope that if I did so, I'd be given a chance to learn...

BUT if you mean "not tolerated" as such should be vigorously challenged, then I heartily agree...

I completely agree. As stated in my post, “I think old salt should just apologize and we can move on.”

DocBarrister

[MDlaxfan76]

Leaving out Bremer...and Will..Kirkpatrick...even Moynihan, all of whom were described as neoconservatives.

Not sure Bremer would qualify as a neocon either. He entered the Foreign Service out of graduate school & rose to prominence working for Henry Kissinger, in & out of govt. Kissinger is a realist who still often differs with neocons. Bremer is lumped in with all the neocons he worked with in the Bush admin. Moynihan rejects the neocon label for himself, although he was good friends with the neocon founders. Was Will ever a liberal, or a conservative from the start of his writing ?
https://nationalinterest.org/feature/ge ... cons-11252

Yes, Bremer is/was definitely a neocon.
Prominently so, serving in the Bush Admin.

What specifically qualifies Bremer as a neocon ? He was appointed to do a job, which he did. He did not take us into the war.

" globalism" is not antisemitic. You can't disqualify everything.

He was just following orders???

Yes. He was carrying out the assignment he was given to the best of his abilities.

He was not in govt or a prominent public voice for invading Iraq.
After his time as CPA, he quietly departed the scene & accepted his role as scapegoat with grace.

https://www.wilsonquarterly.com/quarter ... -scapegoat

I wasn't being critical, simply that he's frequently cited as a prominent neoconservative.

Prominent neoconservatives in the George W. Bush administration included Paul Wolfowitz, Elliott Abrams, Richard Perle and Paul Bremer. While not identifying as neoconservatives, senior officials Vice President Dick Cheney and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld listened closely to neoconservative advisers regarding foreign policy, especially the defense of Israel and the promotion of American influence in the Middle East. Many of its adherents became politically influential during the Republican presidential administrations of the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s and 2000s, peaking in influence during the administration of George W. Bush, when they played a major role in promoting and planning the 2003 invasion of Iraq.[3]

If you think he would eschew that label, fine.

[MDlaxfan76]

Gotta wonder why there are so few people who participate here anymore.
Anybody?

"snowflakes"???

Seriously, I think the really gross trolling is what turned people off.
Really, really ugly stuff...and if that's what you wanted, plenty of other places for that without the rules against.

If people took off because of getting challenged to defend their views...well, that's too bad.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Some of you boys need to pat yourselves on your backs.

old salt has clearly stated this more than once but that doesn't matter to you boys, it's pile on salty time again.

What "tropes" ? As I've stated --
-- I made no implication or reference to any religion.
-- I was not aware that 2 of the 3 "influencers" I referenced were Jewish. How would I know that ?
-- I am not familiar with the "dinner party trope" which MDLF76 so enthusiastically & tastelessly embellished.

This kind of thing has happened to me more than once on this board, you read it one way when it was meant another
but that doesn't matter your minds are made up and that's not going to change. The stones are going to be thrown,
careful not to break any of the windows in those glass houses, fellas. Not one of you is the least bit hesitant to say
some mighty offensive stuff to salty...not one.

I’m not.

You're just part of the not one, no?
You might be the most offensive one though (with respect to salty).

I know I am. I don’t deny it. I don’t lie, I don’t deceive and I don’t BS people.

TLD shares Feraud's obsession.

I was obsessed with that lap scene….. I have a long memory, but not obsessed….Kietel has played some great roles too.