All Things Russia & Ukraine

[Farfromgeneva]

The whole plausible deniability schtick isn’t only old but so weak and devoid of any character as an approach to discourse.

It’s not that hard to say “oooh, sh*t didn’t realize”, or “thanks for the heads up, my bad” unless feeding ones wgo is more important than finding the truth.

[DocBarrister]

Russian military leadership in the occupied city of Kherson have fled across the Dnieper River, leaving behind new Russian recruits to try and stall the Ukraine military's push to recapture the city, a Washington-based think tank says.

"Using such inexperienced forces to conduct a delaying action could prompt a Russian rout if Ukrainian forces choose to press the attack," the Institute for the Study of War says in its latest assessment of the war.

The institute says that at least one Russian war blogger noted that the situation in Kherson is dire for frontline Russian troops that could find it ”virtually impossible” to evacuate. How to get those troops out and how to explain the flight from Kherson – which the Kremlin says it has annexed – to the Russian populace remain crucial issues for Russian leadership, the assessment says.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/wor ... 582575002/

Russian leaders in Kherson have fled, leaving the conscripts behind for slaughter.

So be it ….

DocBarrister

[DocBarrister]

Where they disagree is on the nature of the order and civilization they seek to conserve. Mr. Soros, much like the Biden administration, sees the dominant issue in world politics as a struggle between democracy and totalitarianism. Democracies are obliged by law to respect the rights of their citizens at home, and must conduct themselves under the restraints of international law abroad.

Totalitarian rulers reject such limits at home and abroad, and Mr. Putin’s invasion of Ukraine is as lawless as his treatment of dissidents at home. His attack on Ukraine is an attack on the fundamental principles of international order, and if that attack succeeds, international politics will return to the law of the jungle by which, as the Athenians once told the Melians during the Peloponnesian War, “the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.”

Metaphor falls apart in that Ukraine isn't a democracy. We're defending one kleptocracy from another.

It also falls apart because the West and NATO are trading with Putin. So there goes the "fundamental principles of international order"...right out the door. Don't get essential goods from your enemy. Pretty simple stuff.

If any principle applies, it's the Pottery Barn rule.....the US and the UK convinced Ukraine to give up their nukes, guaranteeing no invasion from Russia. Bad mistake.

I think you're applying a notion of perfection that even the USA does not meet when describing Ukraine as "not a democracy" but rather a "kleptocracy".

There's no question that Ukraine has evolved to open elections without heavy voter intimidation or suppression and is open to the foreign press. They are clearly trying to improve their democratic processes and institutions and have been reaching out toward the West, expressing affinity with western liberal values over authoritarian rule.

Yes, they've been plagued with corruption and countervailing forces against this move westward, but they've moved quite significantly over the past decade...plenty far to go, but the movement is significant.

I'm not sure what your point is about trade...are you saying that the strategy of trade as a means of opening the world to the opportunities of interdependence is a fundamentally wrong strategy in the pursuit of peace and prosperity?

Equating the fascist personality cult and dictatorship in Russia with the fledgling and flawed democracy in Ukraine is both intellectually lazy and an exercise in falsity.

President Zelensky only rose to power because Ukraine is indeed a democracy. He was a flawed peacetime leader but certainly cared for the people of Ukraine. Zelensky may well be on his way to being remembered as one of the greatest wartime leaders in human history … a leader who could be remembered by the world long after Putin is forgotten.

It would be a travesty to characterize the system that produced Zelensky as anything other than a democracy, flawed as it may be. Zelensky was hardly a political insider or the most recent scion of a family of old money. Instead, he is the descendant of a Holocaust survivor who gained popularity through a television role he played. Hardly the avatar of a “kleptocracy”.

DocBarrister

[a fan]

I think you're applying a notion of perfection that even the USA does not meet when describing Ukraine as "not a democracy" but rather a "kleptocracy".

Disagree. They were under Soviet rule and haven't figured out how to actually run a democracy yet. They're basically a mafia state.

Just pointing out that this isn't a question of installing Democracy vs. Fascism.

I'm not sure what your point is about trade...are you saying that the strategy of trade as a means of opening the world to the opportunities of interdependence is a fundamentally wrong strategy in the pursuit of peace and prosperity?

Yes. Clearly. The ENTIRE point to NATO is to provide a counter to Russia. How the F can they execute that plan if EU nations are buying essential goods from Putin.

You can't. Trade of ESSENTIAL goods with Russia makes NATO pointless. Buy vodka all you like. But you can't buy energy from Putin.

Might as well dissolve NATO if we're going to be this stupid.

[a fan]

Equating the fascist personality cult and dictatorship in Russia with the fledgling and flawed democracy in Ukraine is both intellectually lazy and an exercise in falsity.

Yeah...except that's not what I'm doing. But why let that stop you from beating up a strawman, Doc?

President Zelensky only rose to power because Ukraine is indeed a democracy. He was a flawed peacetime leader but certainly cared for the people of Ukraine. Zelensky may well be on his way to being remembered as one of the greatest wartime leaders in human history … a leader who could be remembered by the world long after Putin is forgotten.

It would be a travesty to characterize the system that produced Zelensky as anything other than a democracy, flawed as it may be. Zelensky was hardly a political insider or the most recent scion of a family of old money. Instead, he is the descendant of a Holocaust survivor who gained popularity through a television role he played. Hardly the avatar of a “kleptocracy”.

Nice logic. 1+1= no, because squirrels can't dance.

You have no clue what the future holds of Ukraine, Doc. They could slide further into kleptocracy. They could come out as a true democracy.

Only a fool suggest he knows which way the wind will blow. And giving people weapons and money hasn't led to positive outcomes for America in the past, Doc.

Guys like you, for example, cheered Charlie Wilson's War----where we trained, armed, and bankrolled what would eventually be the embers that formed both Al Queda AND the Taliban. Guys like you called them Freedom Fighters. How'd that work out?

[PizzaSnake]

Russian military leadership in the occupied city of Kherson have fled across the Dnieper River, leaving behind new Russian recruits to try and stall the Ukraine military's push to recapture the city, a Washington-based think tank says.

"Using such inexperienced forces to conduct a delaying action could prompt a Russian rout if Ukrainian forces choose to press the attack," the Institute for the Study of War says in its latest assessment of the war.

The institute says that at least one Russian war blogger noted that the situation in Kherson is dire for frontline Russian troops that could find it ”virtually impossible” to evacuate. How to get those troops out and how to explain the flight from Kherson – which the Kremlin says it has annexed – to the Russian populace remain crucial issues for Russian leadership, the assessment says.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/wor ... 582575002/

Russian leaders in Kherson have fled, leaving the conscripts behind for slaughter.

So be it ….

DocBarrister

Russia going to blow that dam and inundate a large part of Southern Ukraine. They will blame Ukraine. Some of the Russian people will believe it.

[PizzaSnake]

Equating the fascist personality cult and dictatorship in Russia with the fledgling and flawed democracy in Ukraine is both intellectually lazy and an exercise in falsity.

Yeah...except that's not what I'm doing. But why let that stop you from beating up a strawman, Doc?

President Zelensky only rose to power because Ukraine is indeed a democracy. He was a flawed peacetime leader but certainly cared for the people of Ukraine. Zelensky may well be on his way to being remembered as one of the greatest wartime leaders in human history … a leader who could be remembered by the world long after Putin is forgotten.

It would be a travesty to characterize the system that produced Zelensky as anything other than a democracy, flawed as it may be. Zelensky was hardly a political insider or the most recent scion of a family of old money. Instead, he is the descendant of a Holocaust survivor who gained popularity through a television role he played. Hardly the avatar of a “kleptocracy”.

Nice logic. 1+1= no, because squirrels can't dance.

You have no clue what the future holds of Ukraine, Doc. They could slide further into kleptocracy. They could come out as a true democracy.

Only a fool suggest he knows which way the wind will blow. And giving people weapons and money hasn't led to positive outcomes for America in the past, Doc.

Guys like you, for example, cheered Charlie Wilson's War----where we trained, armed, and bankrolled what would eventually be the embers that formed both Al Queda AND the Taliban. Guys like you called them Freedom Fighters. How'd that work out?

Oh, they were fighting freedom….

[old salt]

You really don’t understand how offensive and bigoted your posts have been, do you?

I think you have been perusing too many far-right websites.

I think you should take a break and consider again why your posts were anti-Semitic and bigoted.

DocBarrister

Do you consider National Review , WSJ, The Washington Post & Defense One to be far right wing ?
Those are the websites I "peruse" routinely.

Of the sites I've referenced in this discussion :
Salon is hardly right wing. This war was fortold there.
I just stumbled upon Truthout when researching Nuland on Ukraine.
They seem more left wing. They have an impressive body of work on Ukraine dating back to 2014.
The American Conservative was founded by Pat Buchanan in 2002. It is to PaleoConservatism what The Weekly Standard was to NeoConservatism, albeit on a much more modest scale.

Stop trying to suppress opinions that you disagree with.
It's a cheap trick. Contrived & slimy.

Salty, we can and do discuss contrary opinions, indeed with some vigor and relish.

But the use of anti-semitic tropes is not ok. Period.

...then stop fabricating them where they do not exist.

Nope, you wrote what you wrote, very clearly utilizing those tropes.
You know better; it's been pointed out to you multiple times previously.
Pretending that you have no understanding of these tropes exposes this even further.
Pretending you don't know what Qanon is spreading is not persuasive.
Pretending you don't know the history of these tropes is just not believable.

And you refuse to apologize for the offense.
Assuming it was a mistake, whether conscious or unconscious, it's easy to recognize the error and to commit to trying harder to avoid that mistake going forward.

Or not. You choose not.

There was no mistake. There is no error. I reject your premise. I will not be constrained by your paranoia & bigotry.

A small circle of like minded Jewish-American intellectuals consider themselves the founders of the NeoConservative movement in foreign policy.
They are proud of their influence & accomplishments, as they should be. There is nothing dark or sinister about them or their work.
They have wielded great influence & are quite consequential. imho -- they are American patriots. To me, their religion & heritage is irrelevant.
My opinion is based on what they espouse & what they accomplish. I admire & enjoy their work & have agreed with much of what they espouse. I differ with them when they overreach.

Public figures must stand by their positions & actions, no matter their religion or heritage -- it does not exempt them from critique.

I commit to nothing. I will not yield to your attempt to limit my free speech with your false accusations. You don't make the rules.

What is QAnon spreading these days ? Where do I find it ? What frequency are they broadcasting on ?
Have you figured out who QAnon is yet ? I thought they went quiet after the father-son team was exposed by the tv documentary.

obtw -- your paranoid rants about White Christian Nationalists are bigoted tropes of their own - no different than the anti-semitic tropes you condemn. Same tactic. Different targets. What are the criteria for membership ? Can Catholics be WCN's or must they be Evangelical Christians who support Israel because of a mystic belief in the Holy Land ? Are you not concerned about the White Christians you may be offending ? Shame on you !

[cradleandshoot]

You really don’t understand how offensive and bigoted your posts have been, do you?

I think you have been perusing too many far-right websites.

I think you should take a break and consider again why your posts were anti-Semitic and bigoted.

DocBarrister

Do you consider National Review , WSJ, The Washington Post & Defense One to be far right wing ?
Those are the websites I "peruse" routinely.

Of the sites I've referenced in this discussion :
Salon is hardly right wing. This war was fortold there.
I just stumbled upon Truthout when researching Nuland on Ukraine.
They seem more left wing. They have an impressive body of work on Ukraine dating back to 2014.
The American Conservative was founded by Pat Buchanan in 2002. It is to PaleoConservatism what The Weekly Standard was to NeoConservatism, albeit on a much more modest scale.

Stop trying to suppress opinions that you disagree with.
It's a cheap trick. Contrived & slimy.

Salty, we can and do discuss contrary opinions, indeed with some vigor and relish.

But the use of anti-semitic tropes is not ok. Period.

...then stop fabricating them where they do not exist.

Nope, you wrote what you wrote, very clearly utilizing those tropes.
You know better; it's been pointed out to you multiple times previously.
Pretending that you have no understanding of these tropes exposes this even further.
Pretending you don't know what Qanon is spreading is not persuasive.
Pretending you don't know the history of these tropes is just not believable.

And you refuse to apologize for the offense.
Assuming it was a mistake, whether conscious or unconscious, it's easy to recognize the error and to commit to trying harder to avoid that mistake going forward.

Or not. You choose not.

There was no mistake. There is no error. I reject your premise. I will not be constrained by your paranoia & bigotry.

A small circle of like minded Jewish-American intellectuals consider themselves the founders of the NeoConservative movement in foreign policy.
They are proud of their influence & accomplishments, as they should be. There is nothing dark or sinister about them or their work.
They have wielded great influence & are quite consequential. imho -- they are American patriots. To me, their religion & heritage is irrelevant.
My opinion is based on what they espouse & what they accomplish. I admire & enjoy their work & have agreed with much of what they espouse. I differ with them when they overreach.

Public figures must stand by their positions & actions, no matter their religion or heritage -- it does not exempt them from critique.

I commit to nothing. I will not yield to your attempt to limit my free speech with your false accusations. You don't make the rules.

What is QAnon spreading these days ? Where do I find it ? What frequency are they broadcasting on ?
Have you figured out who QAnon is yet ? I thought they went quiet after the father-son team was exposed by the tv documentary.

obtw -- your paranoid rants about White Christian Nationalists are bigoted tropes of their own - no different than the anti-semitic tropes you condemn. Same tactic. Different targets. What are the criteria for membership ? Can Catholics be WCN's or must they be Evangelical Christians who support Israel because of a mystic belief in the Holy Land ? Are you not concerned about the White Christians you may be offending ? Shame on you !

+1 Great post OS. I can see the usual suspects on this forum chasing their tails in their lame attempt to respond.

[Typical Lax Dad]

You really don’t understand how offensive and bigoted your posts have been, do you?

I think you have been perusing too many far-right websites.

I think you should take a break and consider again why your posts were anti-Semitic and bigoted.

DocBarrister

Do you consider National Review , WSJ, The Washington Post & Defense One to be far right wing ?
Those are the websites I "peruse" routinely.

Of the sites I've referenced in this discussion :
Salon is hardly right wing. This war was fortold there.
I just stumbled upon Truthout when researching Nuland on Ukraine.
They seem more left wing. They have an impressive body of work on Ukraine dating back to 2014.
The American Conservative was founded by Pat Buchanan in 2002. It is to PaleoConservatism what The Weekly Standard was to NeoConservatism, albeit on a much more modest scale.

Stop trying to suppress opinions that you disagree with.
It's a cheap trick. Contrived & slimy.

Salty, we can and do discuss contrary opinions, indeed with some vigor and relish.

But the use of anti-semitic tropes is not ok. Period.

...then stop fabricating them where they do not exist.

Nope, you wrote what you wrote, very clearly utilizing those tropes.
You know better; it's been pointed out to you multiple times previously.
Pretending that you have no understanding of these tropes exposes this even further.
Pretending you don't know what Qanon is spreading is not persuasive.
Pretending you don't know the history of these tropes is just not believable.

And you refuse to apologize for the offense.
Assuming it was a mistake, whether conscious or unconscious, it's easy to recognize the error and to commit to trying harder to avoid that mistake going forward.

Or not. You choose not.

There was no mistake. There is no error. I reject your premise. I will not be constrained by your paranoia & bigotry.

A small circle of like minded Jewish-American intellectuals consider themselves the founders of the NeoConservative movement in foreign policy.
They are proud of their influence & accomplishments, as they should be. There is nothing dark or sinister about them or their work.
They have wielded great influence & are quite consequential. imho -- they are American patriots. To me, their religion & heritage is irrelevant.
My opinion is based on what they espouse & what they accomplish. I admire & enjoy their work & have agreed with much of what they espouse. I differ with them when they overreach.

Public figures must stand by their positions & actions, no matter their religion or heritage -- it does not exempt them from critique.

I commit to nothing. I will not yield to your attempt to limit my free speech with your false accusations. You don't make the rules.

What is QAnon spreading these days ? Where do I find it ? What frequency are they broadcasting on ?
Have you figured out who QAnon is yet ? I thought they went quiet after the father-son team was exposed by the tv documentary.

obtw -- your paranoid rants about White Christian Nationalists are bigoted tropes of their own - no different than the anti-semitic tropes you condemn. Same tactic. Different targets. What are the criteria for membership ? Can Catholics be WCN's or must they be Evangelical Christians who support Israel because of a mystic belief in the Holy Land ? Are you not concerned about the White Christians you may be offending ? Shame on you !

[Farfromgeneva]

You really don’t understand how offensive and bigoted your posts have been, do you?

I think you have been perusing too many far-right websites.

I think you should take a break and consider again why your posts were anti-Semitic and bigoted.

DocBarrister

Do you consider National Review , WSJ, The Washington Post & Defense One to be far right wing ?
Those are the websites I "peruse" routinely.

Of the sites I've referenced in this discussion :
Salon is hardly right wing. This war was fortold there.
I just stumbled upon Truthout when researching Nuland on Ukraine.
They seem more left wing. They have an impressive body of work on Ukraine dating back to 2014.
The American Conservative was founded by Pat Buchanan in 2002. It is to PaleoConservatism what The Weekly Standard was to NeoConservatism, albeit on a much more modest scale.

Stop trying to suppress opinions that you disagree with.
It's a cheap trick. Contrived & slimy.

Salty, we can and do discuss contrary opinions, indeed with some vigor and relish.

But the use of anti-semitic tropes is not ok. Period.

...then stop fabricating them where they do not exist.

Nope, you wrote what you wrote, very clearly utilizing those tropes.
You know better; it's been pointed out to you multiple times previously.
Pretending that you have no understanding of these tropes exposes this even further.
Pretending you don't know what Qanon is spreading is not persuasive.
Pretending you don't know the history of these tropes is just not believable.

And you refuse to apologize for the offense.
Assuming it was a mistake, whether conscious or unconscious, it's easy to recognize the error and to commit to trying harder to avoid that mistake going forward.

Or not. You choose not.

There was no mistake. There is no error. I reject your premise. I will not be constrained by your paranoia & bigotry.

A small circle of like minded Jewish-American intellectuals consider themselves the founders of the NeoConservative movement in foreign policy.
They are proud of their influence & accomplishments, as they should be. There is nothing dark or sinister about them or their work.
They have wielded great influence & are quite consequential. imho -- they are American patriots. To me, their religion & heritage is irrelevant.
My opinion is based on what they espouse & what they accomplish. I admire & enjoy their work & have agreed with much of what they espouse. I differ with them when they overreach.

Public figures must stand by their positions & actions, no matter their religion or heritage -- it does not exempt them from critique.

I commit to nothing. I will not yield to your attempt to limit my free speech with your false accusations. You don't make the rules.

What is QAnon spreading these days ? Where do I find it ? What frequency are they broadcasting on ?
Have you figured out who QAnon is yet ? I thought they went quiet after the father-son team was exposed by the tv documentary.

obtw -- your paranoid rants about White Christian Nationalists are bigoted tropes of their own - no different than the anti-semitic tropes you condemn. Same tactic. Different targets. What are the criteria for membership ? Can Catholics be WCN's or must they be Evangelical Christians who support Israel because of a mystic belief in the Holy Land ? Are you not concerned about the White Christians you may be offending ? Shame on you !

+1 Great post OS. I can see the usual suspects on this forum chasing their tails in their lame attempt to respond.

And out comes the intentional dullard to talk trash and hiding their own til between legs..

[cradleandshoot]

You really don’t understand how offensive and bigoted your posts have been, do you?

I think you have been perusing too many far-right websites.

I think you should take a break and consider again why your posts were anti-Semitic and bigoted.

DocBarrister

Do you consider National Review , WSJ, The Washington Post & Defense One to be far right wing ?
Those are the websites I "peruse" routinely.

Of the sites I've referenced in this discussion :
Salon is hardly right wing. This war was fortold there.
I just stumbled upon Truthout when researching Nuland on Ukraine.
They seem more left wing. They have an impressive body of work on Ukraine dating back to 2014.
The American Conservative was founded by Pat Buchanan in 2002. It is to PaleoConservatism what The Weekly Standard was to NeoConservatism, albeit on a much more modest scale.

Stop trying to suppress opinions that you disagree with.
It's a cheap trick. Contrived & slimy.

Salty, we can and do discuss contrary opinions, indeed with some vigor and relish.

But the use of anti-semitic tropes is not ok. Period.

...then stop fabricating them where they do not exist.

Nope, you wrote what you wrote, very clearly utilizing those tropes.
You know better; it's been pointed out to you multiple times previously.
Pretending that you have no understanding of these tropes exposes this even further.
Pretending you don't know what Qanon is spreading is not persuasive.
Pretending you don't know the history of these tropes is just not believable.

And you refuse to apologize for the offense.
Assuming it was a mistake, whether conscious or unconscious, it's easy to recognize the error and to commit to trying harder to avoid that mistake going forward.

Or not. You choose not.

There was no mistake. There is no error. I reject your premise. I will not be constrained by your paranoia & bigotry.

A small circle of like minded Jewish-American intellectuals consider themselves the founders of the NeoConservative movement in foreign policy.
They are proud of their influence & accomplishments, as they should be. There is nothing dark or sinister about them or their work.
They have wielded great influence & are quite consequential. imho -- they are American patriots. To me, their religion & heritage is irrelevant.
My opinion is based on what they espouse & what they accomplish. I admire & enjoy their work & have agreed with much of what they espouse. I differ with them when they overreach.

Public figures must stand by their positions & actions, no matter their religion or heritage -- it does not exempt them from critique.

I commit to nothing. I will not yield to your attempt to limit my free speech with your false accusations. You don't make the rules.

What is QAnon spreading these days ? Where do I find it ? What frequency are they broadcasting on ?
Have you figured out who QAnon is yet ? I thought they went quiet after the father-son team was exposed by the tv documentary.

obtw -- your paranoid rants about White Christian Nationalists are bigoted tropes of their own - no different than the anti-semitic tropes you condemn. Same tactic. Different targets. What are the criteria for membership ? Can Catholics be WCN's or must they be Evangelical Christians who support Israel because of a mystic belief in the Holy Land ? Are you not concerned about the White Christians you may be offending ? Shame on you !

+1 Great post OS. I can see the usual suspects on this forum chasing their tails in their lame attempt to respond.

And out comes the intentional dullard to talk trash and hiding their own til between legs..

FTR, I reported your post as a personal attack. Have a great day.

[cradleandshoot]

You really don’t understand how offensive and bigoted your posts have been, do you?

I think you have been perusing too many far-right websites.

I think you should take a break and consider again why your posts were anti-Semitic and bigoted.

DocBarrister

Do you consider National Review , WSJ, The Washington Post & Defense One to be far right wing ?
Those are the websites I "peruse" routinely.

Of the sites I've referenced in this discussion :
Salon is hardly right wing. This war was fortold there.
I just stumbled upon Truthout when researching Nuland on Ukraine.
They seem more left wing. They have an impressive body of work on Ukraine dating back to 2014.
The American Conservative was founded by Pat Buchanan in 2002. It is to PaleoConservatism what The Weekly Standard was to NeoConservatism, albeit on a much more modest scale.

Stop trying to suppress opinions that you disagree with.
It's a cheap trick. Contrived & slimy.

Salty, we can and do discuss contrary opinions, indeed with some vigor and relish.

But the use of anti-semitic tropes is not ok. Period.

...then stop fabricating them where they do not exist.

Nope, you wrote what you wrote, very clearly utilizing those tropes.
You know better; it's been pointed out to you multiple times previously.
Pretending that you have no understanding of these tropes exposes this even further.
Pretending you don't know what Qanon is spreading is not persuasive.
Pretending you don't know the history of these tropes is just not believable.

And you refuse to apologize for the offense.
Assuming it was a mistake, whether conscious or unconscious, it's easy to recognize the error and to commit to trying harder to avoid that mistake going forward.

Or not. You choose not.

There was no mistake. There is no error. I reject your premise. I will not be constrained by your paranoia & bigotry.

A small circle of like minded Jewish-American intellectuals consider themselves the founders of the NeoConservative movement in foreign policy.
They are proud of their influence & accomplishments, as they should be. There is nothing dark or sinister about them or their work.
They have wielded great influence & are quite consequential. imho -- they are American patriots. To me, their religion & heritage is irrelevant.
My opinion is based on what they espouse & what they accomplish. I admire & enjoy their work & have agreed with much of what they espouse. I differ with them when they overreach.

Public figures must stand by their positions & actions, no matter their religion or heritage -- it does not exempt them from critique.

I commit to nothing. I will not yield to your attempt to limit my free speech with your false accusations. You don't make the rules.

What is QAnon spreading these days ? Where do I find it ? What frequency are they broadcasting on ?
Have you figured out who QAnon is yet ? I thought they went quiet after the father-son team was exposed by the tv documentary.

obtw -- your paranoid rants about White Christian Nationalists are bigoted tropes of their own - no different than the anti-semitic tropes you condemn. Same tactic. Different targets. What are the criteria for membership ? Can Catholics be WCN's or must they be Evangelical Christians who support Israel because of a mystic belief in the Holy Land ? Are you not concerned about the White Christians you may be offending ? Shame on you !

+1 Great post OS. I can see the usual suspects on this forum chasing their tails in their lame attempt to respond.

And out comes the intentional dullard to talk trash and hiding their own til between legs..

FTR, I reported your post as a personal attack. Have a great day.

BTW do you not know how to spell?? I'm guessing you meant to spell tail...

[Typical Lax Dad]

You really don’t understand how offensive and bigoted your posts have been, do you?

I think you have been perusing too many far-right websites.

I think you should take a break and consider again why your posts were anti-Semitic and bigoted.

DocBarrister

Do you consider National Review , WSJ, The Washington Post & Defense One to be far right wing ?
Those are the websites I "peruse" routinely.

Of the sites I've referenced in this discussion :
Salon is hardly right wing. This war was fortold there.
I just stumbled upon Truthout when researching Nuland on Ukraine.
They seem more left wing. They have an impressive body of work on Ukraine dating back to 2014.
The American Conservative was founded by Pat Buchanan in 2002. It is to PaleoConservatism what The Weekly Standard was to NeoConservatism, albeit on a much more modest scale.

Stop trying to suppress opinions that you disagree with.
It's a cheap trick. Contrived & slimy.

Salty, we can and do discuss contrary opinions, indeed with some vigor and relish.

But the use of anti-semitic tropes is not ok. Period.

...then stop fabricating them where they do not exist.

Nope, you wrote what you wrote, very clearly utilizing those tropes.
You know better; it's been pointed out to you multiple times previously.
Pretending that you have no understanding of these tropes exposes this even further.
Pretending you don't know what Qanon is spreading is not persuasive.
Pretending you don't know the history of these tropes is just not believable.

And you refuse to apologize for the offense.
Assuming it was a mistake, whether conscious or unconscious, it's easy to recognize the error and to commit to trying harder to avoid that mistake going forward.

Or not. You choose not.

There was no mistake. There is no error. I reject your premise. I will not be constrained by your paranoia & bigotry.

A small circle of like minded Jewish-American intellectuals consider themselves the founders of the NeoConservative movement in foreign policy.
They are proud of their influence & accomplishments, as they should be. There is nothing dark or sinister about them or their work.
They have wielded great influence & are quite consequential. imho -- they are American patriots. To me, their religion & heritage is irrelevant.
My opinion is based on what they espouse & what they accomplish. I admire & enjoy their work & have agreed with much of what they espouse. I differ with them when they overreach.

Public figures must stand by their positions & actions, no matter their religion or heritage -- it does not exempt them from critique.

I commit to nothing. I will not yield to your attempt to limit my free speech with your false accusations. You don't make the rules.

What is QAnon spreading these days ? Where do I find it ? What frequency are they broadcasting on ?
Have you figured out who QAnon is yet ? I thought they went quiet after the father-son team was exposed by the tv documentary.

obtw -- your paranoid rants about White Christian Nationalists are bigoted tropes of their own - no different than the anti-semitic tropes you condemn. Same tactic. Different targets. What are the criteria for membership ? Can Catholics be WCN's or must they be Evangelical Christians who support Israel because of a mystic belief in the Holy Land ? Are you not concerned about the White Christians you may be offending ? Shame on you !

+1 Great post OS. I can see the usual suspects on this forum chasing their tails in their lame attempt to respond.

And out comes the intentional dullard to talk trash and hiding their own til between legs..

FTR, I reported your post as a personal attack. Have a great day.

[MDlaxfan76]

I think you're applying a notion of perfection that even the USA does not meet when describing Ukraine as "not a democracy" but rather a "kleptocracy".

Disagree. They were under Soviet rule and haven't figured out how to actually run a democracy yet. They're basically a mafia state.

Just pointing out that this isn't a question of installing Democracy vs. Fascism.

I'm not sure what your point is about trade...are you saying that the strategy of trade as a means of opening the world to the opportunities of interdependence is a fundamentally wrong strategy in the pursuit of peace and prosperity?

Yes. Clearly. The ENTIRE point to NATO is to provide a counter to Russia. How the F can they execute that plan if EU nations are buying essential goods from Putin.

You can't. Trade of ESSENTIAL goods with Russia makes NATO pointless. Buy vodka all you like. But you can't buy energy from Putin.

Might as well dissolve NATO if we're going to be this stupid.

I understand the tactics question re trade re this conflict, just not the overall question.

I disagree re Ukraine. No argument as to whether there's corruption, just as there is here in the US (worse in Ukraine), but that doesn't invalidate that it is a democracy, not an authoritarian state...no, it is not like the mafia and not a dictatorship.

[MDlaxfan76]

You really don’t understand how offensive and bigoted your posts have been, do you?

I think you have been perusing too many far-right websites.

I think you should take a break and consider again why your posts were anti-Semitic and bigoted.

DocBarrister

Do you consider National Review , WSJ, The Washington Post & Defense One to be far right wing ?
Those are the websites I "peruse" routinely.

Of the sites I've referenced in this discussion :
Salon is hardly right wing. This war was fortold there.
I just stumbled upon Truthout when researching Nuland on Ukraine.
They seem more left wing. They have an impressive body of work on Ukraine dating back to 2014.
The American Conservative was founded by Pat Buchanan in 2002. It is to PaleoConservatism what The Weekly Standard was to NeoConservatism, albeit on a much more modest scale.

Stop trying to suppress opinions that you disagree with.
It's a cheap trick. Contrived & slimy.

Salty, we can and do discuss contrary opinions, indeed with some vigor and relish.

But the use of anti-semitic tropes is not ok. Period.

...then stop fabricating them where they do not exist.

Nope, you wrote what you wrote, very clearly utilizing those tropes.
You know better; it's been pointed out to you multiple times previously.
Pretending that you have no understanding of these tropes exposes this even further.
Pretending you don't know what Qanon is spreading is not persuasive.
Pretending you don't know the history of these tropes is just not believable.

And you refuse to apologize for the offense.
Assuming it was a mistake, whether conscious or unconscious, it's easy to recognize the error and to commit to trying harder to avoid that mistake going forward.

Or not. You choose not.

There was no mistake. There is no error. I reject your premise. I will not be constrained by your paranoia & bigotry.

A small circle of like minded Jewish-American intellectuals consider themselves the founders of the NeoConservative movement in foreign policy.
They are proud of their influence & accomplishments, as they should be. There is nothing dark or sinister about them or their work.
They have wielded great influence & are quite consequential. imho -- they are American patriots. To me, their religion & heritage is irrelevant.
My opinion is based on what they espouse & what they accomplish. I admire & enjoy their work & have agreed with much of what they espouse. I differ with them when they overreach.

Public figures must stand by their positions & actions, no matter their religion or heritage -- it does not exempt them from critique.

I commit to nothing. I will not yield to your attempt to limit my free speech with your false accusations. You don't make the rules.

What is QAnon spreading these days ? Where do I find it ? What frequency are they broadcasting on ?
Have you figured out who QAnon is yet ? I thought they went quiet after the father-son team was exposed by the tv documentary.

obtw -- your paranoid rants about White Christian Nationalists are bigoted tropes of their own - no different than the anti-semitic tropes you condemn. Same tactic. Different targets. What are the criteria for membership ? Can Catholics be WCN's or must they be Evangelical Christians who support Israel because of a mystic belief in the Holy Land ? Are you not concerned about the White Christians you may be offending ? Shame on you !

my bigotry...ok, ok, so I'm saying a bigoted trope when I use the term White Christian Nationalists...

got it.

I'm offending "white Christians..."...hoo boy.

"A small circle of like minded Jewish-American intellectuals consider themselves the founders of the NeoConservative movement in foreign policy."

Just Jews.

And they have "dinner parties where they control the course..."

Might as well have said they drink the blood of children. Go all in Q...all in KKK...all in Elders of Zion...but, hey Flynn...

limit your "free speech"...right, by pointing out your use of bigoted tropes...

Frankly, this is one of your actual dumbest posts yet...and you're no dummy, so I can only conclude it's intentional.

[Farfromgeneva]

You really don’t understand how offensive and bigoted your posts have been, do you?

I think you have been perusing too many far-right websites.

I think you should take a break and consider again why your posts were anti-Semitic and bigoted.

DocBarrister

Do you consider National Review , WSJ, The Washington Post & Defense One to be far right wing ?
Those are the websites I "peruse" routinely.

Of the sites I've referenced in this discussion :
Salon is hardly right wing. This war was fortold there.
I just stumbled upon Truthout when researching Nuland on Ukraine.
They seem more left wing. They have an impressive body of work on Ukraine dating back to 2014.
The American Conservative was founded by Pat Buchanan in 2002. It is to PaleoConservatism what The Weekly Standard was to NeoConservatism, albeit on a much more modest scale.

Stop trying to suppress opinions that you disagree with.
It's a cheap trick. Contrived & slimy.

Salty, we can and do discuss contrary opinions, indeed with some vigor and relish.

But the use of anti-semitic tropes is not ok. Period.

...then stop fabricating them where they do not exist.

Nope, you wrote what you wrote, very clearly utilizing those tropes.
You know better; it's been pointed out to you multiple times previously.
Pretending that you have no understanding of these tropes exposes this even further.
Pretending you don't know what Qanon is spreading is not persuasive.
Pretending you don't know the history of these tropes is just not believable.

And you refuse to apologize for the offense.
Assuming it was a mistake, whether conscious or unconscious, it's easy to recognize the error and to commit to trying harder to avoid that mistake going forward.

Or not. You choose not.

There was no mistake. There is no error. I reject your premise. I will not be constrained by your paranoia & bigotry.

A small circle of like minded Jewish-American intellectuals consider themselves the founders of the NeoConservative movement in foreign policy.
They are proud of their influence & accomplishments, as they should be. There is nothing dark or sinister about them or their work.
They have wielded great influence & are quite consequential. imho -- they are American patriots. To me, their religion & heritage is irrelevant.
My opinion is based on what they espouse & what they accomplish. I admire & enjoy their work & have agreed with much of what they espouse. I differ with them when they overreach.

Public figures must stand by their positions & actions, no matter their religion or heritage -- it does not exempt them from critique.

I commit to nothing. I will not yield to your attempt to limit my free speech with your false accusations. You don't make the rules.

What is QAnon spreading these days ? Where do I find it ? What frequency are they broadcasting on ?
Have you figured out who QAnon is yet ? I thought they went quiet after the father-son team was exposed by the tv documentary.

obtw -- your paranoid rants about White Christian Nationalists are bigoted tropes of their own - no different than the anti-semitic tropes you condemn. Same tactic. Different targets. What are the criteria for membership ? Can Catholics be WCN's or must they be Evangelical Christians who support Israel because of a mystic belief in the Holy Land ? Are you not concerned about the White Christians you may be offending ? Shame on you !

+1 Great post OS. I can see the usual suspects on this forum chasing their tails in their lame attempt to respond.

And out comes the intentional dullard to talk trash and hiding their own til between legs..

FTR, I reported your post as a personal attack. Have a great day.

BTW do you not know how to spell?? I'm guessing you meant to spell tail...

And he responds after crying.

Intentional Dillard is actually your own self professed path. You’ve actually laid claim proudly to that.

Pathetic. How many times have you assaulted my character after I once shared a personal story out of empathy? And never reported it. Enjoy the small win for a small person.

[old salt]

"A small circle of like minded Jewish-American intellectuals consider themselves the founders of the NeoConservative movement in foreign policy."

Just Jews.

The founders who coined the term, yes. So what ? There's nothing wrong with that.
Their ideas took hold & were embraced by many conservative Republicans.
You use the word like it's a pejorative.
obtw -- I did not raise their religion. You did.
You take the religious aspect more seriously than do the founders themselves.
...at least they keep their sense of humor about it.

Anne Applebaum's dinner party

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/week ... l-and-ours
...Irving and his wife Bea, for their part, lived in an inviting and book-stuffed apartment near the New York Athletic Club on Central Park South... they made a habit of generously entertaining the interns alongside established writers and other prominent guests. For that reason among others, Irving's interns felt as warmly toward Bea Kristol as they were simultaneously in awe of her public persona, Gertrude Himmelfarb, historian. ...Like Midge Decter, whose offices... were at that time another hangout for young conservatives in New York,

A couple of times a year the mail would bring individual invitations, set out in Bea's perfect and perfectly tiny handwriting, for a soirée at the Kristols' apartment. There the office team got to meet the regulars on their social and intellectual list--Walter and Irene Berns, Martin and Sydnee Lipset, Midge Decter and Norman Podhoretz, Jeane Kirkpatrick, Daniel Patrick Moynihan, Robert Nisbet, H. J. Kaplan, Roger Starr, George Will, Bob Bartley, and many other writers and editors who would be influencing ideas and politics for years to come. And these are just names from an aperture of two years in the mid 1980s; one can only imagine the parade in full across the decades. Also in the Kristols' apartment, of course, the PI interns met the rest of the family. Their children Bill and Liz knew most everyone on the masthead, and many interns over the years became personal friends. Such are among the true and apparently terrifying origins of the "neoconservative media machine" that has since given so many swooning critics a case of the vapors.

The second stereotype that anyone who actually worked around Irving finds very funny in retrospect is the conflation of neoconservatism with Zionism. Going through piles of mail in the hobbity Public Interest office, one would occasionally come across a crazy letter... Often such missives turned out to be passionately executed exercises in anti-Semitism, undertaken by correspondents who knew... somewhere... lurked a conspiracy of Jews trying to rule the world. ...may just have been ahead of their time ...any number of authors complaining about neocons in recent years have managed to make related, feverish cases, and in some of the best publications...

[Farfromgeneva]

None of these supports the implication they have influence today, today not some anachronistic fellow living in the past, to move the needs on anything. It’s so dumb because who’s listening to George Will now? Not anyone in power in either side. The comment was made with disdain and disgust AAs. Throwaway line laced with innuendo then we get the “kindergarten” attempt at deniability. That’s exactly what went down. Easy as day to see. I’ve done similar and if I got called out I’d (even if grudgingly whole still being “salty” say “yeah, probably crosse a line and shouldn’t have said that or that way, so my bad. But still f**k those cats for their neocon ruining of our country”, which gets you the apology and you still hold your position about the people. Ain’t that hard.

A. Why give an oped
B. Then why not use the term that starts with an N that black people fondly use with their fellow black men on the streets? (Answer is what one of a cohort can use themselves is not ok to be used, no matter how much I may personally have do so while singing along to hit em up over the years-I know better and you should too-to suggest “they say it so I can too” is, ahem, juvenile/kindergarten logic and morality)

Is George Will Jewish? Answer: nope he’s referred to himself as variations (paraphrasing here) a chill atheist who has a degree in religion.

Also, I don’t know why Jewish folks would want to congregate together except for to create conspiracies. Not like they haven’t been welcome everywhere in the world for all of human history. I mean we even offered to let them live in the sea! And they’re a still so closed off to us nice folks!

[Kismet]

OS and I don't agree on much but the criticism here is IMHO way over the top reading into motives not apparently there. Assuming the worst about some people here is not an ideal way to carry on a rational discussion.

That said, some folks have a right to be concerned about rhetoric especially given this front page news from yesterday - This photo is from an overpass on the 405 freeway in Los Angeles featuring Nazi salutes and support for Kanye West's overt antisemitic tweets last week that got him banned from the platform.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/24/us/los-a ... index.html



We'd all benefit following the advice of the Dalai Lama

"As soon as I wake every morning, I remind myself that all human beings are the same as me—we all want to be happy. I resolve to use my life to ensure that other beings are happy. It’s compassion that brings about peace of mind, not anger and hatred."