All Things Russia & Ukraine

[old salt]

gee, 3 people with Jewish descent re Belarus. hmmm.
Families from Ukraine, Belarus and Hungary.
Must be a global cabal...
No matter whether the aggressor espouses a form of Christian Nationalism...

Wiki quick draw with the reflexive religious ancestry bias.
You don't have to be Jewish & of E European ancestry to be a neocon warmonger,
but it helps get you invited to the dinner parties where they plan the course of history.

https://www.theamericanconservative.com ... -and-mine/

[a fan]

Yes, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. But another fork in the road between then and now could have had worse consequences.

Yep. Agree. There are no "right" moves in this mess, which has been my view this entire time.

[MDlaxfan76]

gee, 3 people with Jewish descent re Belarus. hmmm.
Families from Ukraine, Belarus and Hungary.
Must be a global cabal...
No matter whether the aggressor espouses a form of Christian Nationalism...

Wiki quick draw with the reflexive religious ancestry bias.
You don't have to be Jewish & of E European ancestry to be a neocon warmonger,
but it helps get you invited to the dinner parties where they plan the course of history.

https://www.theamericanconservative.com ... -and-mine/

Yup, global cabal...wonder what they're serving at those "dinner" parties.

You chose those 3. Got it.

[a fan]

If Ukraine had more cash, maybe they could be in pn this “pimpin’”.

“The hottest overseas job market for retired U.S. service members is a tiny Persian Gulf nation that outsources much of its military to foreign advisers and mercenaries.
Over the past seven years, 280 military retirees have sought federal authorization to work for the United Arab Emirates — far more than for any other country, according to documents obtained by The Washington Post under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA).”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investig ... _p003_f001

Had Ukraine retained & maintained the remnants of the Soviet conventional weapons defense industry resident on their soil when the USSR came apart, today they'd be the threat to Russia & the global supplier to nations still using Soviet legacy system weapons systems & their evolutionary successors. Just part of the tremendous national potential wasted.

So, some Ukrainians in power 20+ years ago made the "wrong" decisions by not investing in their military capacities...which, as you note, were Soviet made, dependent upon the empire from which they'd just split...

So, Ukraine doesn't deserve to be independent and free of Russia's yoke because of that "mistake"...got it.

The Ukrainians were the best & the brightest of the Soviet military & defense sector. They squandered it. They didn't "choose peace". They chose not to retain the ability to defend themselves. They did not need nucs for that. That would have been adequate had they stayed in the CIS & been Russia's ally like Belarus.They chose to align with the west but did not take the necessary steps to defend themselves & maintain their independence -- a basic obligation for any nation of that size. Their entire 30 year history since independence has been as a corrupt oligarchy. The West is propping them up because we lead them to this point. We want to divide & limit Russia -- deny them their historic heartland -- we are just too sanctimonious to admit it. We are fighting & prolonging this proxy war primarily to degrade Russia militarily & economically with the goal of regime change. We've been following the same game plan since the end of the Cold War. We are playing a dangerous game.

Yes, it's dangerous. Very.

But the most dangerous move would be to allow an imperialist aggressor invade and annex by force it's neighbor.

You say we should not help them, we should abandon their entreaties for hep, that we should let aggressors prevail.

After all, they could have been like Belarus...

We can't abandon them now. We're too far down this road. The die is cast. We can quietly push them to the negotiating table, leading to a frozen conflict. They may have to cede some territory they have lost -- that's the fortunes of war. They need to stop the death & destruction. Rebuild the country they've been able to defend, & with our continued support & protection, prove that they have become a liberal democracy, worthy of joining the West. ...Nuland, Applebaum & Soros already have plans for Belarus.

You should fire off a memo so that leadership is aware of your suggestions.

You have Obama's email address?

This is 100% Biden's call....we're back to playing Global Cop.

[MDlaxfan76]

Only matters if we think that an international rule of order benefits us in the long run.

Clearly, some countries don't think that it benefits them.

[get it to x]

Yes, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. But another fork in the road between then and now could have had worse consequences.

Yep. Agree. There are no "right" moves in this mess, which has been my view this entire time.

Putin's instability makes it impossible to calculate. Cornering him could be catastrophic and ceding territory is dangerous because he gets a reward for his misdeeds.

[a fan]

Yes, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. But another fork in the road between then and now could have had worse consequences.

Yep. Agree. There are no "right" moves in this mess, which has been my view this entire time.

Putin's instability makes it impossible to calculate. Cornering him could be catastrophic and ceding territory is dangerous because he gets a reward for his misdeeds.

+100. He can't concede, IMHO. If Putin concedes, he's thrown out a window in Russia.

I wouldn't have lost a wink of sleep had Biden done nothing. But he's a 80's neo-con, where everything that happens in the world is viewed as "America's problem"....so that wasn't in the cards.

[old salt]

gee, 3 people with Jewish descent re Belarus. hmmm.
Families from Ukraine, Belarus and Hungary.
Must be a global cabal...
No matter whether the aggressor espouses a form of Christian Nationalism...

Wiki quick draw with the reflexive religious ancestry bias.
You don't have to be Jewish & of E European ancestry to be a neocon warmonger,
but it helps get you invited to the dinner parties where they plan the course of history.

https://www.theamericanconservative.com ... -and-mine/

Yup, global cabal...wonder what they're serving at those "dinner" parties.

You chose those 3. Got it.

Amazing the number of ideas that sprung from the dinner parties of Donald Kagan & Irving Kristol.
They were paying attention at the kids table.

https://www.amarillo.com/story/opinion/ ... 195815007/
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/9/1 ... of-the-uss
https://foreignpolicy.com/2009/09/23/wa ... servative/
the neocons — the third wave — were born in the mid-1990s. Their immediate predecessors, more so than the original neoconservatives, provided inspiration. But they developed their ideas in a new context where America had much more relative power. And this time, they were firmly planted on the Republican side of the spectrum.

Kristol’s son, Bill, played a leading role, along with Robert Kagan, in this resurrection through two initiatives he launched — the Weekly Standard magazine and the Project for the New American Century (PNAC), a small advocacy think tank. Bill Kristol and Kagan initially rejected the "neoconservative" appellation, preferring "neo-Reaganism." But the kinship with the second age, that of the Scoop Jackson Democrats, was undeniable, and there was a strong resemblance in terms of organizational forms and influence on public opinion. Hence the neoconservative label stuck.

The main beliefs of the neocons — originated in a 1996 Foreign Affairs article by Kagan and Bill Kristol, reiterated by PNAC, and promulgated more recently by the Foreign Policy Initiative — are well-known. American power is a force for good; the United States should shape the world, lest it be shaped by inimical interests; it should do so unilaterally if necessary; the danger is to do too little, not too much; the expansion of democracy advances U.S. interests.

[MDlaxfan76]

Two more Jews for your blood of children drinking dinner parties in the international cabal.

Got it.

[a fan]

gee, 3 people with Jewish descent re Belarus. hmmm.
Families from Ukraine, Belarus and Hungary.
Must be a global cabal...
No matter whether the aggressor espouses a form of Christian Nationalism...

Wiki quick draw with the reflexive religious ancestry bias.
You don't have to be Jewish & of E European ancestry to be a neocon warmonger,
but it helps get you invited to the dinner parties where they plan the course of history.

https://www.theamericanconservative.com ... -and-mine/

Yup, global cabal...wonder what they're serving at those "dinner" parties.

You chose those 3. Got it.

Amazing the number of ideas that sprung from the dinner parties of Donald Kagan & Irving Kristol.
They were paying attention at the kids table.

https://www.amarillo.com/story/opinion/ ... 195815007/
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/9/1 ... of-the-uss
https://foreignpolicy.com/2009/09/23/wa ... servative/
the neocons — the third wave — were born in the mid-1990s. Their immediate predecessors, more so than the original neoconservatives, provided inspiration. But they developed their ideas in a new context where America had much more relative power. And this time, they were firmly planted on the Republican side of the spectrum.

Kristol’s son, Bill, played a leading role, along with Robert Kagan, in this resurrection through two initiatives he launched — the Weekly Standard magazine and the Project for the New American Century (PNAC), a small advocacy think tank. Bill Kristol and Kagan initially rejected the "neoconservative" appellation, preferring "neo-Reaganism." But the kinship with the second age, that of the Scoop Jackson Democrats, was undeniable, and there was a strong resemblance in terms of organizational forms and influence on public opinion. Hence the neoconservative label stuck.

The main beliefs of the neocons — originated in a 1996 Foreign Affairs article by Kagan and Bill Kristol, reiterated by PNAC, and promulgated more recently by the Foreign Policy Initiative — are well-known. American power is a force for good; the United States should shape the world, lest it be shaped by inimical interests; it should do so unilaterally if necessary; the danger is to do too little, not too much; the expansion of democracy advances U.S. interests.

Where are you coming up with this, Old Salt? FFs......we've been neocons since WWII. America's Cop. Every President, regardless of party.

We have bases all around the world. Have since WWII. Added more as the years passed. This isn't a "phase", and it sure as sh(t didn't start/stop/enter a new phase in the 1990's.

Same policy. For 70 years, and counting.

Want to know when you can claim we've changed policies? When NATO is dissolved, and when our dozens of bases are closed. THAT is when we will have a new policy.

And it won't happen in our lifetimes. This is who we are.

[old salt]

Two more Jews for your blood of children drinking dinner parties in the international cabal.

Got it.

Make it 3. Enjoy this from the brightest at the NeoCon dinner party kiddee table. (I'm a big fan of his, btw)

https://www.commentary.org/john-podhore ... rn-crisis/

It's unfortunate that you can't have an honest discussion without playing the race/religion card.
It's a sign of intellectual weakness & a form of bigotry all it's own.
I agreed with the neocons during the Cold War, but they went too far in the aftermath.

[get it to x]

gee, 3 people with Jewish descent re Belarus. hmmm.
Families from Ukraine, Belarus and Hungary.
Must be a global cabal...
No matter whether the aggressor espouses a form of Christian Nationalism...

Wiki quick draw with the reflexive religious ancestry bias.
You don't have to be Jewish & of E European ancestry to be a neocon warmonger,
but it helps get you invited to the dinner parties where they plan the course of history.

https://www.theamericanconservative.com ... -and-mine/

Yup, global cabal...wonder what they're serving at those "dinner" parties.

You chose those 3. Got it.

Amazing the number of ideas that sprung from the dinner parties of Donald Kagan & Irving Kristol.
They were paying attention at the kids table.

https://www.amarillo.com/story/opinion/ ... 195815007/
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/9/1 ... of-the-uss
https://foreignpolicy.com/2009/09/23/wa ... servative/
the neocons — the third wave — were born in the mid-1990s. Their immediate predecessors, more so than the original neoconservatives, provided inspiration. But they developed their ideas in a new context where America had much more relative power. And this time, they were firmly planted on the Republican side of the spectrum.

Kristol’s son, Bill, played a leading role, along with Robert Kagan, in this resurrection through two initiatives he launched — the Weekly Standard magazine and the Project for the New American Century (PNAC), a small advocacy think tank. Bill Kristol and Kagan initially rejected the "neoconservative" appellation, preferring "neo-Reaganism." But the kinship with the second age, that of the Scoop Jackson Democrats, was undeniable, and there was a strong resemblance in terms of organizational forms and influence on public opinion. Hence the neoconservative label stuck.

The main beliefs of the neocons — originated in a 1996 Foreign Affairs article by Kagan and Bill Kristol, reiterated by PNAC, and promulgated more recently by the Foreign Policy Initiative — are well-known. American power is a force for good; the United States should shape the world, lest it be shaped by inimical interests; it should do so unilaterally if necessary; the danger is to do too little, not too much; the expansion of democracy advances U.S. interests.

Where are you coming up with this, Old Salt? FFs......we've been neocons since WWII. America's Cop. Every President, regardless of party.

We have bases all around the world. Have since WWII. Added more as the years passed. This isn't a "phase", and it sure as sh(t didn't start/stop/enter a new phase in the 1990's.

Same policy. For 70 years, and counting.

Want to know when you can claim we've changed policies? When NATO is dissolved, and when our dozens of bases are closed. THAT is when we will have a new policy.

And it won't happen in our lifetimes. This is who we are.

It goes back to fighting two world wars and building up a defense industry. Occam's Razor.

[old salt]

Where are you coming up with this, Old Salt? FFs......we've been neocons since WWII. America's Cop. Every President, regardless of party.

We have bases all around the world. Have since WWII. Added more as the years passed. This isn't a "phase", and it sure as sh(t didn't start/stop/enter a new phase in the 1990's.

Same policy. For 70 years, and counting.

Want to know when you can claim we've changed policies? When NATO is dissolved, and when our dozens of bases are closed. THAT is when we will have a new policy.

And it won't happen in our lifetimes. This is who we are.

Having bases is not the determining factor.
It's what you do from those bases.

Just "being there" -- a "presence" is a form of deterrence.
It's not the same thing as using those bases to "project power".

[a fan]

gee, 3 people with Jewish descent re Belarus. hmmm.
Families from Ukraine, Belarus and Hungary.
Must be a global cabal...
No matter whether the aggressor espouses a form of Christian Nationalism...

Wiki quick draw with the reflexive religious ancestry bias.
You don't have to be Jewish & of E European ancestry to be a neocon warmonger,
but it helps get you invited to the dinner parties where they plan the course of history.

https://www.theamericanconservative.com ... -and-mine/

Yup, global cabal...wonder what they're serving at those "dinner" parties.

You chose those 3. Got it.

Amazing the number of ideas that sprung from the dinner parties of Donald Kagan & Irving Kristol.
They were paying attention at the kids table.

https://www.amarillo.com/story/opinion/ ... 195815007/
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/9/1 ... of-the-uss
https://foreignpolicy.com/2009/09/23/wa ... servative/
the neocons — the third wave — were born in the mid-1990s. Their immediate predecessors, more so than the original neoconservatives, provided inspiration. But they developed their ideas in a new context where America had much more relative power. And this time, they were firmly planted on the Republican side of the spectrum.

Kristol’s son, Bill, played a leading role, along with Robert Kagan, in this resurrection through two initiatives he launched — the Weekly Standard magazine and the Project for the New American Century (PNAC), a small advocacy think tank. Bill Kristol and Kagan initially rejected the "neoconservative" appellation, preferring "neo-Reaganism." But the kinship with the second age, that of the Scoop Jackson Democrats, was undeniable, and there was a strong resemblance in terms of organizational forms and influence on public opinion. Hence the neoconservative label stuck.

The main beliefs of the neocons — originated in a 1996 Foreign Affairs article by Kagan and Bill Kristol, reiterated by PNAC, and promulgated more recently by the Foreign Policy Initiative — are well-known. American power is a force for good; the United States should shape the world, lest it be shaped by inimical interests; it should do so unilaterally if necessary; the danger is to do too little, not too much; the expansion of democracy advances U.S. interests.

Where are you coming up with this, Old Salt? FFs......we've been neocons since WWII. America's Cop. Every President, regardless of party.

We have bases all around the world. Have since WWII. Added more as the years passed. This isn't a "phase", and it sure as sh(t didn't start/stop/enter a new phase in the 1990's.

Same policy. For 70 years, and counting.

Want to know when you can claim we've changed policies? When NATO is dissolved, and when our dozens of bases are closed. THAT is when we will have a new policy.

And it won't happen in our lifetimes. This is who we are.

It goes back to fighting two world wars and building up a defense industry. Occam's Razor.

Yep. Eisenhower told us....we didn't listen.

[a fan]

Where are you coming up with this, Old Salt? FFs......we've been neocons since WWII. America's Cop. Every President, regardless of party.

We have bases all around the world. Have since WWII. Added more as the years passed. This isn't a "phase", and it sure as sh(t didn't start/stop/enter a new phase in the 1990's.

Same policy. For 70 years, and counting.

Want to know when you can claim we've changed policies? When NATO is dissolved, and when our dozens of bases are closed. THAT is when we will have a new policy.

And it won't happen in our lifetimes. This is who we are.

Having bases is not the determining factor.
It's what you do from those bases.

Just "being there" -- a "presence" is a form of deterrence.
It's not the same thing as using those bases to "project power".

A. Nonsense. There is ZERO need to "project power" halfway the world if you're not "the Global Cop".

B. We HAVE been using these bases to wage war overseas....unprovoked war..... for 70 years.

[MDlaxfan76]

Two more Jews for your blood of children drinking dinner parties in the international cabal.

Got it.

Make it 3. Enjoy this from the brightest at the NeoCon dinner party kiddee table. (I'm a big fan of his, btw)

https://www.commentary.org/john-podhore ... rn-crisis/

It's unfortunate that you can't have an honest discussion without playing the race/religion card.
It's a sign of intellectual weakness & a form of bigotry all it's own.
I agreed with the neocons during the Cold War, but they went too far in the aftermath.

Sorry, you don't get to skate by simply naming one more Jew and claiming "race/religion card" by someone.
These were the folks you put at the "dinner parties where they control the course of history".
Surely there are some non-Jews in your international cabal?

This exchange began with you making an argument in favor of a white Christian nationalist imperialist war criminal and his kleptocracy being rewarded for their aggression against a neighbor trying to move toward western values and democracy and defending their land and their people from atrocities.

With a claim that Ukraine should have taken the path of Belarus, then citing 3 people (just coincidentally) of Jewish Eastern European background as somehow the enemy of what, peace and prosperity, for Christian Eastern Europeans?

Was this all unconscious?

[Farfromgeneva]

It’s fine he put his feelings on Jewish people on the table. It’s clear and no amount of whining and crying will allow him to come back from that. Wash people out words in my mouth. Yeah right.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Two more Jews for your blood of children drinking dinner parties in the international cabal.

Got it.

Make it 3. Enjoy this from the brightest at the NeoCon dinner party kiddee table. (I'm a big fan of his, btw)

https://www.commentary.org/john-podhore ... rn-crisis/

It's unfortunate that you can't have an honest discussion without playing the race/religion card.
It's a sign of intellectual weakness & a form of bigotry all it's own.
I agreed with the neocons during the Cold War, but they went too far in the aftermath.

Sands through the hour glass

[Typical Lax Dad]

Two more Jews for your blood of children drinking dinner parties in the international cabal.

Got it.

Make it 3. Enjoy this from the brightest at the NeoCon dinner party kiddee table. (I'm a big fan of his, btw)

https://www.commentary.org/john-podhore ... rn-crisis/

It's unfortunate that you can't have an honest discussion without playing the race/religion card.
It's a sign of intellectual weakness & a form of bigotry all it's own.
I agreed with the neocons during the Cold War, but they went too far in the aftermath.

Sorry, you don't get to skate by simply naming one more Jew and claiming "race/religion card" by someone.
These were the folks you put at the "dinner parties where they control the course of history".
Surely there are some non-Jews in your international cabal?

This exchange began with you making an argument in favor of a white Christian nationalist imperialist war criminal and his kleptocracy being rewarded for their aggression against a neighbor trying to move toward western values and democracy and defending their land and their people from atrocities.

With a claim that Ukraine should have taken the path of Belarus, then citing 3 people (just coincidentally) of Jewish Eastern European background as somehow the enemy of what, peace and prosperity, for Christian Eastern Europeans?

Was this all unconscious?

No.

[get it to x]

Neocons include W and his whole crew. Lindsey Graham, Mitt et al. It's not confined to any persuasion/religion.