All Things Russia & Ukraine

[old salt]

Fantasy (and stupidity) would be Ukraine counting on the whim and caprice of countries like the US and Germany.

Honestly, would you trust the US? Given the current political and cultural upheaval here? If so, I've got a nice bridge to sell you. Don't worry about those scratches in the paint -- they'll buff out.

Ukraine has no choice other than to trust the US, & NATO, to a lesser extent.

[MDlaxfan76]

Fantasy (and stupidity) would be Ukraine counting on the whim and caprice of countries like the US and Germany.

Honestly, would you trust the US? Given the current political and cultural upheaval here? If so, I've got a nice bridge to sell you. Don't worry about those scratches in the paint -- they'll buff out.

Ukraine has no choice other than to trust the US, & NATO, to a lesser extent.

They should not.
We've proven to be unreliable.
(after many decades of reliable, bipartisan foreign policy)

It's entirely possible that Republicans will take over Congress in January and at first opportunity dramatically reduce funding. They will definitely be under pressure from their base to do so, voiced by CPAC, Hannity, Tucker, Ingraham, etc. When you embrace Orban, you're not gonna spend money for Ukraine under Zelensky to defeat Russian aggression.

And, of course, 2024 may well bring a President who tacks hard away from NATO.
We already know that Trump is saying he would, so his supporters are being groomed for such.

[PizzaSnake]

Fantasy (and stupidity) would be Ukraine counting on the whim and caprice of countries like the US and Germany.

Honestly, would you trust the US? Given the current political and cultural upheaval here? If so, I've got a nice bridge to sell you. Don't worry about those scratches in the paint -- they'll buff out.

Ukraine has no choice other than to trust the US, & NATO, to a lesser extent.

Isn't trust more accurately a four-letter word?

So, "trust but verify"; build a medium yield nuke or two. What's Putie gonna do then, nuke Ukraine? Already said he would, and so what? He is indicating such a depraved indifference to life and self-determination, what do they have to lose? Would you want to live as his slave? Would you go willingly under the yoke?

Remember, if you are abducted, never get in the car. Better to take your chances where you are.

Not sure when the US became a nation of cowards. Probably always been the case.

[a fan]

Wrong. Stop misreprepresenting me. I've always approved DEFENSIVE aid. I just resent that we have to do it.

I'm not misrepresenting doodly. You won't stop complaining about it. Don't like the "misrepresentation"? Great. Stop whining about the defensive assistance.

That is all he has taken -- look at a map. It's played out as I predicted.

That's 100% because of the help we've given them. What you (and I, for that matter) have suggested is that the US do NOTHING militarily. If Biden had done that? Putin would have rolled into Kiev. Biden and the Ukrainian forces stopped him from doing that.

Ukraine is not in the process of joining NATO. That will take the approval of all NATO members. Good luck getting Turkey, Hungary & likely others to vote yes.

Oh, I get all that. What I'm telling you is that unless Ukrainian leaders are as stupid as you are pretending to be (pretending), they're going to get to work on nukes. They have all the uranium they need.

Do the Ukrainians have the ability to develop nukes ? Will the US & NATO continue to provide support if they do ?

Ah, you just got the point. Even if Zelensky does everything you want, perfectly? Ukraine and Russia will be an unstable mess for decades to come. All because we foolishly trusted Russia in the Budapest agreement. And the UK, for that matter. Whoops.

If Putin uses those stupid "tactical" nukes, guess what every power in Asia will get?

With continued US & NATO support in DEFENSIVE CONVENTIONAL weapons, Ukraine can deter another Russian invasion

The scoreboard says you're wrong. Trump armed and trained them, remember? It didn't deter doodly. And you can play dumb all you want, but you're not in charge of the safety of the Ukrainian people.

I have no idea why you are acting like you dont' get that. How many more times does Zelensky need to plead to NATO, the EU, and the US for weapons before you finally understand that from their perspective, the world has turned their back on Ukraine. Wake up.

Your only magic ability seems to be to look at the world from Putin's view. Maybe work on your skill set so you can extend that vision to others in this region.

Zelensky should face reality. He failed to defend the territory he lost & does not have the ability to take it back without the US & NATO doing more than they are willing to risk. He has at least ensured the survival of his country. He should make the best deal he can & rebuild his country.

And if you were him, you'd let Putin keep Virginia, Maryland, and the Carolinas, would you? Right.

Tone deaf. You can't possibly be so dumb that you can't understand why Zelensky would want to keep the rest of his country in a war that's not even a year old.

Putin is already deterred by the conventional defense Ukraine has mounted. He's struggling to hold what he has. He won't be invading anyone in his remaining time in power. He does not have the forces to do so.

This is you forever in "take that hill" mode. This thinking is why we got popped on 9/11....policy makers and military wonks are 100% unable to understand that our decisions have long term consequences, so you just shoot, fire, aim. Consequences that last for decades. See: our decision to bankroll a peaceful Iran, leading to 60 years of making them a pointless enemy for no reason whatsoever.

Biden has no good choices here. Every choice has long term downsides...... and not small downsides. Big ones. I'm with you in that I think we should have left this alone...but I get why Biden is arming them.

[Farfromgeneva]

Fantasy (and stupidity) would be Ukraine counting on the whim and caprice of countries like the US and Germany.

Honestly, would you trust the US? Given the current political and cultural upheaval here? If so, I've got a nice bridge to sell you. Don't worry about those scratches in the paint -- they'll buff out.

Ukraine has no choice other than to trust the US, & NATO, to a lesser extent.

Isn't trust more accurately a four-letter word?

So, "trust but verify"; build a medium yield nuke or two. What's Putie gonna do then, nuke Ukraine? Already said he would, and so what? He is indicating such a depraved indifference to life and self-determination, what do they have to lose? Would you want to live as his slave? Would you go willingly under the yoke?

Remember, if you are abducted, never get in the car. Better to take your chances where you are.

Not sure when the US became a nation of cowards. Probably always been the case.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hJG_B2qIqC0

[FannOLax]

Russia has not lost any territory. However, Russia no longer controls all of the areas that were once part of the old Soviet Union.

[old salt]

Wrong. Stop misreprepresenting me. I've always approved DEFENSIVE aid. I just resent that we have to do it.

I'm not misrepresenting doodly. You won't stop complaining about it. Don't like the "misrepresentation"? Great. Stop whining about the defensive assistance. I resent that it got to the point that we had to rescue Ukraine. My preference was we not meddle & try to influence Ukrainian internal affairs as far back as the Orange revolution in 2004. Ditto for NATO expansion up to & into the former Soviet Union. My frustration with this goes back decades. You're not the only one saying "I told you so", but for different reasons. After all we've done fomenting this, we're now obligated to provide the defensive aid necessary for Ukraine's national survival. For me -- that's it. I feel no obligation to help them win back the territory they failed to defend.

That is all he has taken -- look at a map. It's played out as I predicted.

That's 100% because of the help we've given them. What you (and I, for that matter) have suggested is that the US do NOTHING militarily. If Biden had done that? Putin would have rolled into Kiev. Biden and the Ukrainian forces stopped him from doing that.
Biden expected Kyiv to fall, urged Zelensky to leave & offered to fly him out to set up a govt in exile. After Biden saw how well the Ukrainians fought, using the weapons & training we've provided since 2014, he changed his tune & backed what he thought to be the winning horse when he saw how poorly the Russian military performed.

Ukraine is not in the process of joining NATO. That will take the approval of all NATO members. Good luck getting Turkey, Hungary & likely others to vote yes.

Oh, I get all that. What I'm telling you is that unless Ukrainian leaders are as stupid as you are pretending to be (pretending), they're going to get to work on nukes. They have all the uranium they need. It takes a lot more than that & they are totally dependent on the west for everything, economically & militarily.

Do the Ukrainians have the ability to develop nukes ? Will the US & NATO continue to provide support if they do ?

Ah, you just got the point. Even if Zelensky does everything you want, perfectly? Ukraine and Russia will be an unstable mess for decades to come. All because we foolishly trusted Russia in the Budapest agreement. And the UK, for that matter. Whoops.

If Putin uses those stupid "tactical" nukes, guess what every power in Asia will get?

With continued US & NATO support in DEFENSIVE CONVENTIONAL weapons, Ukraine can deter another Russian invasion

The scoreboard says you're wrong. Trump armed and trained them, remember? It didn't deter doodly. And you can play dumb all you want, but you're not in charge of the safety of the Ukrainian people. What scoreboard are you looking at ? The Russian invasion was repelled. Ukraine is winning back territory. The Ukrainians are winning, ...to the point that Putin is taking desperate & dangerous actions.

I have no idea why you are acting like you dont' get that. How many more times does Zelensky need to plead to NATO, the EU, and the US for weapons before you finally understand that from their perspective, the world has turned their back on Ukraine. Wake up.
The Ukrainians failed to defend themselves. That's no one else's responsibility. The West is coming to their rescue.

Your only magic ability seems to be to look at the world from Putin's view. Maybe work on your skill set so you can extend that vision to others in this region.The WP's ace foreign policy expert tells us that the goal of the Ukrainian intelligentsia is to dismember Russia. That's who we're backing.

Zelensky should face reality. He failed to defend the territory he lost & does not have the ability to take it back without the US & NATO doing more than they are willing to risk. He has at least ensured the survival of his country. He should make the best deal he can & rebuild his country.

And if you were him, you'd let Putin keep Virginia, Maryland, and the Carolinas, would you? Right.

Tone deaf. You can't possibly be so dumb that you can't understand why Zelensky would want to keep the rest of his country in a war that's not even a year old. I understand why. That does not make it possible. He may be forced to accept it.

Putin is already deterred by the conventional defense Ukraine has mounted. He's struggling to hold what he has. He won't be invading anyone in his remaining time in power. He does not have the forces to do so.

This is you forever in "take that hill" mode. This thinking is why we got popped on 9/11....policy makers and military wonks are 100% unable to understand that our decisions have long term consequences, so you just shoot, fire, aim. Consequences that last for decades. See: our decision to bankroll a peaceful Iran, leading to 60 years of making them a pointless enemy for no reason whatsoever.

Biden has no good choices here. Every choice has long term downsides...... and not small downsides. Big ones. I'm with you in that I think we should have left this alone...but I get why Biden is arming them. So do I, up to this point. He's far from giving them everything they want (& need) to take back all the territory they failed to defend. It remains to be seen whether he will.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Wrong. Stop misreprepresenting me. I've always approved DEFENSIVE aid. I just resent that we have to do it.

I'm not misrepresenting doodly. You won't stop complaining about it. Don't like the "misrepresentation"? Great. Stop whining about the defensive assistance. I resent that it got to the point that we had to rescue Ukraine. My preference was we not meddle & try to influence Ukrainian internal affairs as far back as the Orange revolution in 2004. Ditto for NATO expansion up to & into the former Soviet Union. My frustration with this goes back decades. You're not the only one saying "I told you so", but for different reasons. After all we've done fomenting this, we're now obligated to provide the defensive aid necessary for Ukraine's national survival. For me -- that's it. I feel no obligation to help them win back the territory they failed to defend.

That is all he has taken -- look at a map. It's played out as I predicted.

That's 100% because of the help we've given them. What you (and I, for that matter) have suggested is that the US do NOTHING militarily. If Biden had done that? Putin would have rolled into Kiev. Biden and the Ukrainian forces stopped him from doing that.
Biden expected Kyiv to fall, urged Zelensky to leave & offered to fly him out to set up a govt in exile. After Biden saw how well the Ukrainians fought, using the weapons & training we've provided since 2014, he changed his tune & backed what he thought to be the winning horse when he saw how poorly the Russian military performed.

Ukraine is not in the process of joining NATO. That will take the approval of all NATO members. Good luck getting Turkey, Hungary & likely others to vote yes.

Oh, I get all that. What I'm telling you is that unless Ukrainian leaders are as stupid as you are pretending to be (pretending), they're going to get to work on nukes. They have all the uranium they need. It takes a lot more than that & they are totally dependent on the west for everything, economically & militarily.

Do the Ukrainians have the ability to develop nukes ? Will the US & NATO continue to provide support if they do ?

Ah, you just got the point. Even if Zelensky does everything you want, perfectly? Ukraine and Russia will be an unstable mess for decades to come. All because we foolishly trusted Russia in the Budapest agreement. And the UK, for that matter. Whoops.

If Putin uses those stupid "tactical" nukes, guess what every power in Asia will get?

With continued US & NATO support in DEFENSIVE CONVENTIONAL weapons, Ukraine can deter another Russian invasion

The scoreboard says you're wrong. Trump armed and trained them, remember? It didn't deter doodly. And you can play dumb all you want, but you're not in charge of the safety of the Ukrainian people. What scoreboard are you looking at ? The Russian invasion was repelled. Ukraine is winning back territory. The Ukrainians are winning, ...to the point that Putin is taking desperate & dangerous actions.

I have no idea why you are acting like you dont' get that. How many more times does Zelensky need to plead to NATO, the EU, and the US for weapons before you finally understand that from their perspective, the world has turned their back on Ukraine. Wake up.
The Ukrainians failed to defend themselves. That's no one else's responsibility. The West is coming to their rescue.

Your only magic ability seems to be to look at the world from Putin's view. Maybe work on your skill set so you can extend that vision to others in this region.The WP's ace foreign policy expert tells us that the goal of the Ukrainian intelligencia is to dismember Russia. That's who we're backing.

Zelensky should face reality. He failed to defend the territory he lost & does not have the ability to take it back without the US & NATO doing more than they are willing to risk. He has at least ensured the survival of his country. He should make the best deal he can & rebuild his country.

And if you were him, you'd let Putin keep Virginia, Maryland, and the Carolinas, would you? Right.

Tone deaf. You can't possibly be so dumb that you can't understand why Zelensky would want to keep the rest of his country in a war that's not even a year old. I understand why. That does not make it possible. He may be forced to accept it.

Putin is already deterred by the conventional defense Ukraine has mounted. He's struggling to hold what he has. He won't be invading anyone in his remaining time in power. He does not have the forces to do so.

This is you forever in "take that hill" mode. This thinking is why we got popped on 9/11....policy makers and military wonks are 100% unable to understand that our decisions have long term consequences, so you just shoot, fire, aim. Consequences that last for decades. See: our decision to bankroll a peaceful Iran, leading to 60 years of making them a pointless enemy for no reason whatsoever.

Biden has no good choices here. Every choice has long term downsides...... and not small downsides. Big ones. I'm with you in that I think we should have left this alone...but I get why Biden is arming them. So do I, up to this point. He's far from giving them everything they want (& need) to take back all the territory they failed to defend. It remains to be seen whether he will.

A lot of words to say its the USA’s fault and Putin isn’t doing anything wrong.

[old salt]

A lot of words to say its the USA’s fault and Putin isn’t doing anything wrong.

We got ourselves into this position. We influenced what brought Ukraine & Russia to this point.

Putin's in the wrong & is doing bad things. What do you realistically think we can do about it now & what are you willing to risk ?

What did you advocate doing in 2014 ?

[Typical Lax Dad]

A lot of words to say its the USA’s fault and Putin isn’t doing anything wrong.

We got ourselves into this position. We influenced what brought Ukraine & Russia to this point.

Putin's in the wrong & is doing bad things. What do you realistically think we can do about it now & what are you willing to risk ?

What did you advocate doing in 2014 ?

What I advocate doesn’t matter. Neither does what you advocate. Ain’t nobody listening to you in order to make a decision….no more than Ricky was.

[old salt]

https://www.c-span.org/podcasts/subpage ... cfcae40de9

Outstanding CSPAN Booknotes+ interview of Charles Kupchan by Brian Lamb on Russian propaganda & the War in Ukraine.

Prof Kupchan convincingly explains why he regards this as the an even more dangerous crisis than the Cuban missile crisis.

[old salt]

A lot of words to say its the USA’s fault and Putin isn’t doing anything wrong.

We got ourselves into this position. We influenced what brought Ukraine & Russia to this point.

Putin's in the wrong & is doing bad things. What do you realistically think we can do about it now & what are you willing to risk ?

What did you advocate doing in 2014 ?

What I advocate doesn’t matter. Neither does what you advocate. Ain’t nobody listening to you in order to make a decision….no more than Ricky was.

Fine. Then butt out. I was replying to afan. Somebody eventually made a decision about Ricky, ...after a lost decade.

[Typical Lax Dad]

A lot of words to say its the USA’s fault and Putin isn’t doing anything wrong.

We got ourselves into this position. We influenced what brought Ukraine & Russia to this point.

Putin's in the wrong & is doing bad things. What do you realistically think we can do about it now & what are you willing to risk ?

What did you advocate doing in 2014 ?

What I advocate doesn’t matter. Neither does what you advocate. Ain’t nobody listening to you in order to make a decision….no more than Ricky was.

Fine. Then butt out. I was replying to afan. Somebody eventually made a decision about Ricky, ...after a lost decade.

You asked me a question and I answered it. Hopefully Joe will listen to you so you don’t lose another decade, god willing.

[PizzaSnake]

A lot of words to say its the USA’s fault and Putin isn’t doing anything wrong.

We got ourselves into this position. We influenced what brought Ukraine & Russia to this point.

Putin's in the wrong & is doing bad things. What do you realistically think we can do about it now & what are you willing to risk ?

What did you advocate doing in 2014 ?

What I advocate doesn’t matter. Neither does what you advocate. Ain’t nobody listening to you in order to make a decision….no more than Ricky was.

Fine. Then butt out. I was replying to afan. Somebody eventually made a decision about Ricky, ...after a lost decade.

You asked me a question and I answered it. Hopefully Joe will listen to you so you don’t lose another decade, god willing.

Inshallah.

[Kismet]

The latest

"After a report indicated that Iran will send surface-to-surface missiles intended for Russia's to use against Ukrainian cities, an Israeli minister said that "The time has come for Ukraine to receive military aid from Israel just as has from the USA and NATO countries.""

[Typical Lax Dad]

A lot of words to say its the USA’s fault and Putin isn’t doing anything wrong.

We got ourselves into this position. We influenced what brought Ukraine & Russia to this point.

Putin's in the wrong & is doing bad things. What do you realistically think we can do about it now & what are you willing to risk ?

What did you advocate doing in 2014 ?

What I advocate doesn’t matter. Neither does what you advocate. Ain’t nobody listening to you in order to make a decision….no more than Ricky was.

Fine. Then butt out. I was replying to afan. Somebody eventually made a decision about Ricky, ...after a lost decade.

You asked me a question and I answered it. Hopefully Joe will listen to you so you don’t lose another decade, god willing.

Inshallah.

[a fan]

It takes a lot more than that (to build a nuke) & they are totally dependent on the west for everything, economically & militarily.

Ukraine built and housed nuclear missiles before, OS. And mined the uranium. They were called the Soviet Union back then.

What scoreboard are you looking at ? The Russian invasion was repelled. Ukraine is winning back territory. The Ukrainians are winning, ...to the point that Putin is taking desperate & dangerous actions.

? Does Russia now control square miles of Ukraine that they didn't before the war, or not.

That's the scoreboard. And from Urkaine's perspective, the EU and NATO, in particular, have told Ukraine to F off.

They're gonna get nukes if they don't join NATO. This destabilizes the whole region.

The Ukrainians failed to defend themselves. That's no one else's responsibility

Yeah----and again, they gave that up in the name of peace, and were screwed for it. I have NO CLUE why you keep ignoring that they gave up their defenses in the name of global peace. Guess what message this sends to any other country in the world who'd looking to get nukes?

The WP's ace foreign policy expert tells us that the goal of the Ukrainian intelligentsia is to dismember Russia. That's who we're backing.

Don't blame them one bit. They gave up their nukes to these wankers, who reneged on that deal.

If they had kept their nukes? Putin can't invade. THAT, it turns out, was the winning move for Ukraine. Everything else is white noise.

You can bet every leader in the world has watched this play out. Message: you need nukes to defend your borders against nuclear armed nations. Conventional arms won't do the job.

[MDlaxfan76]

It takes a lot more than that (to build a nuke) & they are totally dependent on the west for everything, economically & militarily.

Ukraine built and housed nuclear missiles before, OS. And mined the uranium. They were called the Soviet Union back then.

What scoreboard are you looking at ? The Russian invasion was repelled. Ukraine is winning back territory. The Ukrainians are winning, ...to the point that Putin is taking desperate & dangerous actions.

? Does Russia now control square miles of Ukraine that they didn't before the war, or not.

That's the scoreboard. And from Urkaine's perspective, the EU and NATO, in particular, have told Ukraine to F off.

They're gonna get nukes if they don't join NATO. This destabilizes the whole region.

The Ukrainians failed to defend themselves. That's no one else's responsibility

Yeah----and again, they gave that up in the name of peace, and were screwed for it. I have NO CLUE why you keep ignoring that they gave up their defenses in the name of global peace. Guess what message this sends to any other country in the world who'd looking to get nukes?

The WP's ace foreign policy expert tells us that the goal of the Ukrainian intelligentsia is to dismember Russia. That's who we're backing.

Don't blame them one bit. They gave up their nukes to these wankers, who reneged on that deal.

If they had kept their nukes? Putin can't invade. THAT, it turns out, was the winning move for Ukraine. Everything else is white noise.

You can bet every leader in the world has watched this play out. Message: you need nukes to defend your borders against nuclear armed nations. Conventional arms won't do the job.

Unless you are aligned with an org like NATO.

[a fan]

Unless you are aligned with an org like NATO.

Which gives you........nukes. It's why no one messes with Israel...and why we need to stop sending money to them. They're all set.

[MDlaxfan76]

Unless you are aligned with an org like NATO.

Which gives you........nukes. It's why no one messes with Israel...and why we need to stop sending money to them. They're all set.

Finland and Sweden certainly made an important calculation.

And that's what Salty wants to deny to Ukraine..why? because the Russkies will feel "surrounded".