All Things Russia & Ukraine

[old salt]

I think we know that Putin, if unopposed, would annex all of Ukraine, wiping out its existence as a sovereign country...and we know that he's perfectly willing to destroy the civilian population to do so, destroy the infrastructure and housing, and green light the worst of atrocities in the effort to intimidate Ukraine to capitulate and to punish any who dare oppose the conqueror. Genocide. All for ego.

And that's what Salty says is perfectly reasonable to not oppose.

You are overstating my position,...probably intentionally, for effect.

Putin does not have the military capacity to annex all of Ukraine.
The inability of his military to project conventional power has been exposed.
He will be challenged to hold the territory he now occupies.

You are lapsing into hyperbole.

[a fan]

Look, you keep bobbing and weaving with your assertions. But underneath it all, your advice is, and has been, for Biden to stand down, stop helping Ukraine, and let Putin do what he wants, because you're certain that this will force Zelensky to negotiate. Oh, and also force Putin to stop what he's doing, and negotiate. You've been saying the same thing for months.
...& that's exactly what is happening.

? No, it isn't. You've been insisting that Biden cut them off entirely....forcing Ukraine to the table. And insisting that anyone advocating another path is a war monger. Biden is, and has been, trying to thread a needle with his help..and you've been complaining about this almost daily.

We're still holding back the weapons that Ukraine needs to mount an effective counteroffensive.

Yes. That's the needle. Biden is trying to keep Putin from escalating to nukes.

Ukraine won't run out of arms. We're carefully calibrating what we're providing. Far from everything they want & what they will need to drive Russia out of ALL the territory taken since 2014, but enough to prevent Russia from taking the entire country.

Every poster here knows this. What we're reacting to is YOUR position that this is the WRONG thing for Biden to do, and he should, instead, stand down because you think, among other things, this is prolonging the war. No one here agrees with you....because no one has A CLUE as to what Putin would do if Ukraine stopped fighting because Biden cut them off.

No one knows what Putin wants. No one knows what Zelensky wants..and what, if anything, he'll settle for.

Biden is in a position to determine the outcome

This is plainly wrong. THIS is your assessment, after all your experience and training?

You have NO IDEA what Putin or Zelensky will do, based on Biden's choices. Not. a. clue. And the ONLY reason you're making this absurd claim is that you transparently want to blame Biden, no matter what he does. It's childish, and beneath you.

If Biden were a Republican? You'd be on here, defending him, asking us how the F we would handle things. And every poster here knows it.

So since your're here, tell us, specifically:

1. what Putin & Zelensky will do if Biden maintains current volumes and types of weapons.

2. what Putin & Zelensky will do if Biden INCREASES current volumes and types of weapons to the point where Zelensky retakes all the land lost this year.

3. what Putin & Zelensky will do if Biden COMPLETELY ELIMINATES current volumes and types of weapons.


Good luck answering. And when you can't answer, you'll have the answer to the question "why are you arguing?"

[a fan]

You are overstating my position,...probably intentionally, for effect.

Nope. This is what you've been communicating to us for MONTHS.

You're upset that Biden is giving Ukraine weapons, and prolonging the war. You've been complaining about it almost daily.

You've brought up multiple reasons why we shouldn't be helping them for months.

Some of the greatest hits for reasons why Biden should cut Ukraine off:
-Ukraine is corrupt
-Putin rightfully owns these regions
-the Soviet fall was "an accident"
-this is costing us money.
-this can lead to direct war with US and Russia

You've been clear as a bell that you want Biden to stop giving military aid, so that Zelesnsky has no choice but to cede this land to Putin, and surrender.

If this isn't what you intend to communicate? Now's your chance.

[old salt]

your advice is, and has been, for Biden to stand down, stop helping Ukraine, and let Putin do what he wants, because you're certain that this will force Zelensky to negotiate. Oh, and also force Putin to stop what he's doing, and negotiate. You've been saying the same thing for months

You've been insisting that Biden cut them off entirely....forcing Ukraine to the table. And insisting that anyone advocating another path is a war monger. Biden is, and has been, trying to thread a needle with his help..and you've been complaining about this almost daily.

No I haven't. Show us my words saying that.

We're still holding back the weapons that Ukraine needs to mount an effective counteroffensive.

Yes. That's the needle. Biden is trying to keep Putin from escalating to nukes.

Ukraine won't run out of arms. We're carefully calibrating what we're providing. Far from everything they want & what they will need to drive Russia out of ALL the territory taken since 2014, but enough to prevent Russia from taking the entire country.

Every poster here knows this. What we're reacting to is YOUR position that this is the WRONG thing for Biden to do, and he should, instead, stand down because you think, among other things, this is prolonging the war. No one here agrees with you....because no one has A CLUE as to what Putin would do if Ukraine stopped fighting because Biden cut them off.
Again, show us my words saying that we should stand down or stop providing aid. What I'm pushing back against is the maximalist view that "total victory", total expulsion from all captured territory, total Russian defeat & driving Putin from office, is the only acceptable outcome.

No one knows what Putin wants. No one knows what Zelensky wants..and what, if anything, he'll settle for.

Biden is in a position to determine the outcome

This is plainly wrong. THIS is your assessment, after all your experience and training?
Ukraine's ability to continue fighting is totally dependent on western aid -- primarily & decisively continued US aid.

You have NO IDEA what Putin or Zelensky will do, based on Biden's choices. Not. a. clue. And the ONLY reason you're making this absurd claim is that you transparently want to blame Biden, no matter what he does. It's childish, and beneath you.
We control what Zelensky can do.

If Biden were a Republican? You'd be on here, defending him, asking us how the F we would handle things. And every poster here knows it.
Stop being such a partisan cry baby. As you acknowledge above (threading the needle), I've been mostly supportive of the course Biden has followed. You're just butt-hurt because I point out the reality that Putin waited until Biden was in office & Trump out of power, before he invaded.

So since your're here, tell us, specifically:

1. what Putin & Zelensky will do if Biden maintains current volumes and types of weapons.
That will be determined on the battlefield. I doubt that Russia will gain any more territory & tbd how much Ukraine can win back.

2. what Putin & Zelensky will do if Biden INCREASES current volumes and types of weapons to the point where Zelensky retakes all the land lost this year. that's where we risk escalation. Is it worth finding out ?

3. what Putin & Zelensky will do if Biden COMPLETELY ELIMINATES current volumes and types of weapons.
No answer because that is not going to happen.

Good luck answering. And when you can't answer, you'll have the answer to the question "why are you arguing?"
Because I'm sick of the false choice of total defeat or total victory.
Unrealistic expectations are dangerous. We are nearing a point of diminishing returns in prolonging this war.
Stable, defensible post war borders are more important than Ukraine gaining back every inch of lost territory.
Restoration of Russian energy flow to EUrope, at least in the short term, is critical to the global economy as is restored Black Sea ag exports.
We need to push for a stable peace, even if it means both Putin & Zelensky remain in power for the foreseeable future.

[a fan]

Again, show us my words saying that we should stand down or stop providing aid. What I'm pushing back against is the maximalist view that "total victory", total expulsion from all captured territory, total Russian defeat & driving Putin from office, is the only acceptable outcome.

Oh, you do that sometimes. Yep. But then you follow that with stupid comments about how Ukraine isn't a real country and is "invented". That's what I mean when I said you bob and weave. You're being intentionally vague to provoke responses....trolling.

And then clutch pearls when you're called on it.

Ukraine's ability to continue fighting is totally dependent on western aid -- primarily & decisively continued US aid.

Yes. But that doesn't mean you know what he'll do if we change those circumstances.

We control what Zelensky can do.

No, we don't. Know how I know this? Because you can't tell me what he's going to do, or when.

Stop being such a partisan cry baby. As you acknowledge above (threading the needle), I've been mostly supportive of the course Biden has followed.

What the heck are you talking about? You've been whining about what Biden is doing for months now. Blaming him for "prolonging the war".

You're just butt-hurt because I point out the reality that Putin waited until Biden was in office & Trump out of power, before he invaded.

Putin also waited for my daughter to turn 7 before invading. Oh, and for the year to end in the number 22. Oh, and for Betty White to die. And any number of things that have NOTHING to do with Putin's timing on the invasion. But yep, they happened, alright.

Trump waved Putin through----free pass, telling the world "America first". It's not my fault that you're the ONLY person on planet Earth who understands what Trump meant by that: China can invade Taiwan and Putin can invade Ukraine, and Trump will do NOTHING about it, militarily.

And you can't stand that I was 100% fine with Trump's statement....because now you can't call me a partisan, making stuff up about Trump. Nope. Trump green lit the invasion. Putin didn't care....because unlike you, Putin's life doesn't revolve around D's and R's.

Putin waited for a career old school Global Cop DC insider to take power before invading? If that's true (it's not), he's the dumbest leader Russia has ever had. I told you that Biden would restore America's role as Global Cop BEFORE he took office. Because: duh. Anyone could see that was coming. Biden did EXACTLY what you'd expect these paint-by-numbers American leaders to do.

Because I'm sick of the false choice of total defeat or total victory.

Yep..it's why you're trolling and throwing temper tantrums. You just made my point for me. Making dumb, outrageous statements because you're sick of DocB's statements. I certainly don't blame you for that....but I can only react to what you put on the page.

Unrealistic expectations are dangerous.

We've had unrealistic expectations for the dozens of proxy wars that you have supported for years, my man. And for real wars like Afghanistan. The media, too. And Republicans, in general. "They'll greet us a liberators" ring a bell? And yet you have chosen THIS war to whine about, and this war alone. You never complained before.

We are nearing a point of diminishing returns in prolonging this war.
Stable, defensible post war borders are more important than Ukraine gaining back every inch of lost territory.
Restoration of Russian energy flow to EUrope, at least in the short term, is critical to the global economy as is restored Black Sea ag exports.
We need to push for a stable peace, even if it means both Putin & Zelensky remain in power for the foreseeable future. [/color]

How do you know what Biden is pushing for behind closed doors?

You're adult enough to understand that Biden CAN'T overtly tell the world that he's giving Zelensky just enough weapons to do well....but not so well that he can hit Russian homeland. And YET....you won't stop complaining.

It's absurd. You're asking the impossible, and you know it. Say one thing and doing another in the Fog of a proxy War is BOILER PLATE behavior for a wise US President....the fact that you're pretending that you don't know this is annoying, and is THE tell that you're griping at a Dem POTUS.

[old salt]

Again, show us my words saying that we should stand down or stop providing aid. What I'm pushing back against is the maximalist view that "total victory", total expulsion from all captured territory, total Russian defeat & driving Putin from office, is the only acceptable outcome.

Oh, you do that sometimes. Yep. But then you follow that with stupid comments about how Ukraine isn't a real country and is "invented". That's what I mean when I said you bob and weave. You're being intentionally vague to provoke responses....trolling.
No. That's my actual opinion, expressed in this forum as far back as 2014. ...& that has nothing to do with Biden or RvD team sports.
And then clutch pearls when you're called on it.
Not when I'm called on "it ". When I'm insulted or my patriotism questioned or loyalty to country is impugned for having a long held, honest opinion, based on history. ...especially after I spent a career prepared to fight Russians of Muscovite, Ukrainian & other ethnic heritages. To me, they are not different. They're all corrupt & all squandered the opportunities they were presented when we defeated the USSR in the Cold War.

Ukraine's ability to continue fighting is totally dependent on western aid -- primarily & decisively continued US aid.

Yes. But that doesn't mean you know what he'll do if we change those circumstances.
I know what he won't be able to do.

We control what Zelensky can do.

No, we don't. Know how I know this? Because you can't tell me what he's going to do, or when.
I know that his ability to fight & run his country depends on US military & financial aid. We're still not providing the weapons necessary to mount a counteroffensive & drive out the Russians. Do you know why ? That's not a criticism. It's a statement of fact.

Stop being such a partisan cry baby. As you acknowledge above (threading the needle), I've been mostly supportive of the course Biden has followed.

What the heck are you talking about? You've been whining about what Biden is doing for months now. Blaming him for "prolonging the war".
I don't single out Biden. It's both parties, Congress, NATO & the West, in general. Anyone who questions total commitment is branded a Putin supporter.

You're just butt-hurt because I point out the reality that Putin waited until Biden was in office & Trump out of power, before he invaded.

Putin also waited for my daughter to turn 7 before invading. Oh, and for the year to end in the number 22. Oh, and for Betty White to die. And any number of things that have NOTHING to do with Putin's timing on the invasion. But yep, they happened, alright.

Trump waved Putin through----free pass, telling the world "America first". It's not my fault that you're the ONLY person on planet Earth who understands what Trump meant by that: China can invade Taiwan and Putin can invade Ukraine, and Trump will do NOTHING about it, militarily.
So why didn't they do it while Trump was in office. Why did they wait until Biden was in office & he bungled our Afghan pullout ?

And you can't stand that I was 100% fine with Trump's statement....because now you can't call me a partisan, making stuff up about Trump. Nope. Trump green lit the invasion. Putin didn't care....because unlike you, Putin's life doesn't revolve around D's and R's.
Trump greenlit the invasion ? So why didn't he invade while Trump was still in office ? Biden won the election 16 mos before Putin invaded.

Putin waited for a career old school Global Cop DC insider to take power before invading? If that's true (it's not), he's the dumbest leader Russia has ever had. I told you that Biden would restore America's role as Global Cop BEFORE he took office. Because: duh. Anyone could see that was coming. Biden did EXACTLY what you'd expect these paint-by-numbers American leaders to do.

Because I'm sick of the false choice of total defeat or total victory.

Yep..it's why you're trolling and throwing temper tantrums. You just made my point for me. Making dumb, outrageous statements because you're sick of DocB's statements. I certainly don't blame you for that....but I can only react to what you put on the page.

Unrealistic expectations are dangerous.

We've had unrealistic expectations for the dozens of proxy wars that you have supported for years, my man. And for real wars like Afghanistan. The media, too. And Republicans, in general. "They'll greet us a liberators" ring a bell? And yet you have chosen THIS war to whine about, and this war alone. You never complained before. Each one was different circumstances. None were as risky as this one with as little strategic value to the US. None of them had nucs or anywhere near the conventional power that Russia has.

We are nearing a point of diminishing returns in prolonging this war.
Stable, defensible post war borders are more important than Ukraine gaining back every inch of lost territory.
Restoration of Russian energy flow to EUrope, at least in the short term, is critical to the global economy as is restored Black Sea ag exports.
We need to push for a stable peace, even if it means both Putin & Zelensky remain in power for the foreseeable future. [/color]

How do you know what Biden is pushing for behind closed doors?
By the nature of the weapons he's not providing & he's cut back on the total victory rhetoric.

You're adult enough to understand that Biden CAN'T overtly tell the world that he's giving Zelensky just enough weapons to do well....but not so well that he can hit Russian homeland. And YET....you won't stop complaining.

It's absurd. You're asking the impossible, and you know it. Say one thing and doing another in the Fog of a proxy War is BOILER PLATE behavior for a wise US President....the fact that you're pretending that you don't know this is annoying, and is THE tell that you're griping at a Dem POTUS.
I only mention Biden when you cast my every comment as a specific critique of him. I'm arguing with the triumphalist keyboard warriors in this forum, not with Biden. I'm just not sure how far Biden will let the neocon hawks in his admin push him. Seeing scowling Victoria Nuland sitting behind Tony Blinken at the UN made my blood run cold. She's a prime mover in getting us into this mess.

[Kismet]

STOCKHOLM/COPENHAGEN, Sept 27 (Reuters) - European countries on Tuesday raced to investigate unexplained leaks in two Russian gas pipelines running under the Baltic Sea near Sweden and Denmark, infrastructure at the heart of an energy crisis since Russia's invasion of Ukraine."

"(Reuters) - Denmark's Prime Minister Mette Frederiksen said on Tuesday that leaks detected in the Nord Stream gas pipelines clearly were caused by deliberate actions and could not have been a result of accidents."

"Swedish seismologists detected two powerful tremors around the time and place of the Nord Stream leaks.
“We are pretty sure that the two events were blasts. They are not earthquakes.” - WSJ

[DocBarrister]

Again, show us my words saying that we should stand down or stop providing aid. What I'm pushing back against is the maximalist view that "total victory", total expulsion from all captured territory, total Russian defeat & driving Putin from office, is the only acceptable outcome.

Oh, you do that sometimes. Yep. But then you follow that with stupid comments about how Ukraine isn't a real country and is "invented". That's what I mean when I said you bob and weave. You're being intentionally vague to provoke responses....trolling.
No. That's my actual opinion, expressed in this forum as far back as 2014. ...& that has nothing to do with Biden or RvD team sports.
And then clutch pearls when you're called on it.
Not when I'm called on "it ". When I'm insulted or my patriotism questioned or loyalty to country is impugned for having a long held, honest opinion, based on history. ...especially after I spent a career prepared to fight Russians of Muscovite, Ukrainian & other ethnic heritages. To me, they are not different. They're all corrupt & all squandered the opportunities they were presented when we defeated the USSR in the Cold War.

Ukraine's ability to continue fighting is totally dependent on western aid -- primarily & decisively continued US aid.

Yes. But that doesn't mean you know what he'll do if we change those circumstances.
I know what he won't be able to do.

We control what Zelensky can do.

No, we don't. Know how I know this? Because you can't tell me what he's going to do, or when.
I know that his ability to fight & run his country depends on US military & financial aid. We're still not providing the weapons necessary to mount a counteroffensive & drive out the Russians. Do you know why ? That's not a criticism. It's a statement of fact.

Stop being such a partisan cry baby. As you acknowledge above (threading the needle), I've been mostly supportive of the course Biden has followed.

What the heck are you talking about? You've been whining about what Biden is doing for months now. Blaming him for "prolonging the war".
I don't single out Biden. It's both parties, Congress, NATO & the West, in general. Anyone who questions total commitment is branded a Putin supporter.

You're just butt-hurt because I point out the reality that Putin waited until Biden was in office & Trump out of power, before he invaded.

Putin also waited for my daughter to turn 7 before invading. Oh, and for the year to end in the number 22. Oh, and for Betty White to die. And any number of things that have NOTHING to do with Putin's timing on the invasion. But yep, they happened, alright.

Trump waved Putin through----free pass, telling the world "America first". It's not my fault that you're the ONLY person on planet Earth who understands what Trump meant by that: China can invade Taiwan and Putin can invade Ukraine, and Trump will do NOTHING about it, militarily.
So why didn't they do it while Trump was in office. Why did they wait until Biden was in office & he bungled our Afghan pullout ?

And you can't stand that I was 100% fine with Trump's statement....because now you can't call me a partisan, making stuff up about Trump. Nope. Trump green lit the invasion. Putin didn't care....because unlike you, Putin's life doesn't revolve around D's and R's.
Trump greenlit the invasion ? So why didn't he invade while Trump was still in office ? Biden won the election 16 mos before Putin invaded.

Putin waited for a career old school Global Cop DC insider to take power before invading? If that's true (it's not), he's the dumbest leader Russia has ever had. I told you that Biden would restore America's role as Global Cop BEFORE he took office. Because: duh. Anyone could see that was coming. Biden did EXACTLY what you'd expect these paint-by-numbers American leaders to do.

Because I'm sick of the false choice of total defeat or total victory.

Yep..it's why you're trolling and throwing temper tantrums. You just made my point for me. Making dumb, outrageous statements because you're sick of DocB's statements. I certainly don't blame you for that....but I can only react to what you put on the page.

Unrealistic expectations are dangerous.

We've had unrealistic expectations for the dozens of proxy wars that you have supported for years, my man. And for real wars like Afghanistan. The media, too. And Republicans, in general. "They'll greet us a liberators" ring a bell? And yet you have chosen THIS war to whine about, and this war alone. You never complained before. Each one was different circumstances. None were as risky as this one with as little strategic value to the US. None of them had nucs or anywhere near the conventional power that Russia has.

We are nearing a point of diminishing returns in prolonging this war.
Stable, defensible post war borders are more important than Ukraine gaining back every inch of lost territory.
Restoration of Russian energy flow to EUrope, at least in the short term, is critical to the global economy as is restored Black Sea ag exports.
We need to push for a stable peace, even if it means both Putin & Zelensky remain in power for the foreseeable future. [/color]

How do you know what Biden is pushing for behind closed doors?
By the nature of the weapons he's not providing & he's cut back on the total victory rhetoric.

You're adult enough to understand that Biden CAN'T overtly tell the world that he's giving Zelensky just enough weapons to do well....but not so well that he can hit Russian homeland. And YET....you won't stop complaining.

It's absurd. You're asking the impossible, and you know it. Say one thing and doing another in the Fog of a proxy War is BOILER PLATE behavior for a wise US President....the fact that you're pretending that you don't know this is annoying, and is THE tell that you're griping at a Dem POTUS.
I only mention Biden when you cast my every comment as a specific critique of him. I'm arguing with the triumphalist keyboard warriors in this forum, not with Biden. I'm just not sure how far Biden will let the neocon hawks in his admin push him. Seeing scowling Victoria Nuland sitting behind Tony Blinken at the UN made my blood run cold. She's a prime mover in getting us into this mess.

Nothing demonstrates a failure to learn the lessons of history than the absolutely false and misguided assertion that Ukraine has no strategic value to NATO or the United States.

Did the Sudetenland, Austria, Bohemia, Moravia, or Memel have any strategic value to the United States, France, and the UK?

A Ukrainian victory against Russia is of the greatest strategic importance to the United States.

Anyone who fails to understand that, doesn’t understand what is going on right now in Ukraine.

DocBarrister

[MDlaxfan76]

Look, you keep bobbing and weaving with your assertions. But underneath it all, your advice is, and has been, for Biden to stand down, stop helping Ukraine, and let Putin do what he wants, because you're certain that this will force Zelensky to negotiate. Oh, and also force Putin to stop what he's doing, and negotiate. You've been saying the same thing for months.
...& that's exactly what is happening. We're still holding back the weapons that Ukraine needs to mount an effective counteroffensive. Putin is concentrating his forces in the south to defend the landbridge & the southern Donbas. That's allowing the Ukrainians to take back territory in the NE near Kharkiv.

But you have no clue what Putin wants, or what he would do if Ukraine literally ran out of arms. And no clue if and when Zelensky would surrender, regardless of conditions. Those "tiny" details are entirely immaterial in your mind. You're trying to lay this all at the feet of Joe Biden...and you don't need a secret decoder ring to understand why. Ukraine won't run out of arms. We're carefully calibrating what we're providing. Far from everything they want & what they will need to drive Russia out of ALL the territory taken since 2014, but enough to prevent Russia from taking the entire country. Biden is in a position to determine the outcome -- he is in control of what military & financial aid Ukraine receives.

While I agree that the US and the rest of the West are not providing everything that Ukraine wants, nor as quickly as they want, there's been an ongoing progression of more and more extensive firepower, with training to support.

I think you (and probably many others) have underestimated the Ukrainians' capacity to utilize what they get very effectively and more swiftly so than many had expected. I won't claim to any direct insight on such, but it's been pretty darn remarkable.

I also won't second guess the US military's judgment on what the most cost effective strategies and weaponry have been needed at each stage or their assessment of what the Ukrainians' have been sufficiently trained to use, but seems to me that they have erred to the conservative, recognizing that our very most deadly and longer range capabilities may well be much less cost effective than what has been provided instead....in the hands of the Ukrainians.

There also appears to be some concern about utilizing the very most advanced technology at this stage and this conflict, whether because of potential tech capture by Russia or simply exposure to the tactics and capabilities we have in reserve for an even more dangerous and larger conflict should such occur.

And sure, there's clearly been a desire to not provide excuses for Russian escalation against the US and NATO allies, though I think that's been overblown by media and those who wish the current Admin ill.

What I see, instead, is an ongoing progression in capacities being provided, not with the objective of merely not giving up more territory, but rather to enable Ukraine to re-take occupied territories.

And all signals, military and diplomatic, appear to be in support of that goal, not some false sense of 'peace' in which we force Zelensky and Ukraine to stop fighting, with no accountability for the massive war crimes that have been committed by the aggressors.

[MDlaxfan76]

I do agree that an open ended, continuous threat of Russian aggression to Ukraine and any other neighbors would be very costly to the US and the West.

I don't see any end of that threat that is "negotiated" with Putin or any other Russian leader until Russia completely withdraws from all Ukrainian territory, including Crimea. There's no limit to Putin's ambition, so the threat will be continued until Russia is either forced out or withdraws under new leadership.

Which is why all this constant defeatism and Putin apologia is so misguided.

...& I think your idealistic, triumphalism is unhinged from reality, ....& is dangerous.

If Putin is driven from power, can you guarantee what will follow, collateral damage, unintended consequences. ?

Putin is contained. NATO is the limit to Putin's ambition. That is being demonstrated. That's why the Vikings are rushing to join.

ohhh, this is far from a moment to be triumphant...a hell of a lot of people are yet to die in this war of Russian aggression. Many of them unwilling conscripts from Russia. And many of them, unfortunately, in war crimes yet to be committed by Russians and their mercenaries.

It's awful.

But the idea that it will end with Putin being willing to agree (again) to Ukraine's sovereignty and actually following through, much less holding accountable those who have committed atrocities, and returning the 200,000 children stolen out of Ukraine...

I quite agree that there are no guarantees of what and who would replace Putin in a defeated Russia, but we have a pretty darn clear idea of what will continue to be the reality as long as he remains in power...there will be no peace, the West will need to spend massively to reinforce its defenses, trade will not resume, and Putin will continue to rule with an iron fist to the bitter end...and, of course, he'll continue to use any and all measures to undermine democracies around the world including our own.

White nationalist autocracies and ideologies will breathe further life from Putin's continued existence in power, claiming victory in Ukraine.

Ahhh, but now we're back to why some people are rooting for Biden to force Zelensky and Ukraine to capitulate.

[DocBarrister]

I do agree that an open ended, continuous threat of Russian aggression to Ukraine and any other neighbors would be very costly to the US and the West.

I don't see any end of that threat that is "negotiated" with Putin or any other Russian leader until Russia completely withdraws from all Ukrainian territory, including Crimea. There's no limit to Putin's ambition, so the threat will be continued until Russia is either forced out or withdraws under new leadership.

Which is why all this constant defeatism and Putin apologia is so misguided.

...& I think your idealistic, triumphalism is unhinged from reality, ....& is dangerous.

If Putin is driven from power, can you guarantee what will follow, collateral damage, unintended consequences. ?

Putin is contained. NATO is the limit to Putin's ambition. That is being demonstrated. That's why the Vikings are rushing to join.

ohhh, this is far from a moment to be triumphant...a hell of a lot of people are yet to die in this war of Russian aggression. Many of them unwilling conscripts from Russia. And many of them, unfortunately, in war crimes yet to be committed by Russia.

It's awful.

But the idea that it will end with Putin being willing to agree (again) to Ukraine's sovereignty and actually following through, much less holding accountable those who have committed atrocities, and returning the 200,000 children stolen out of Ukraine...

I quite agree that there are no guarantees of what and who would replace Putin in a defeated Russia, but we have a pretty darn clear idea of what will continue to be the reality as long as he remains in power...there will be no peace, the West will need to spend massively to reinforce its defenses, trade will not resume, and Putin will continue to rule with an iron fist to the bitter end...and, of course, he'll continue to use any and all measures to undermine democracies around the world including our own.

White nationalist autocracies and ideologies will breathe further life from Putin's continued existence in power, claiming victory in Ukraine.

Ahhh, but now we're back to why some people are rooting for Biden to force Zelensky and Ukraine to capitulate.

I agree.

There is no redeeming aspect of Putin.

His continuing rule of Russia will never result in peace and stability.

He has clearly committed war crimes and countless atrocities in Ukraine and elsewhere.

Putin is reckless and unhinged.

Putin has expressly threatened to use nuclear weapons.

There is nothing of redeeming value in Putin. It is truly astounding that anyone could think otherwise. Peace and stability in Europe and the world will only be possible after he is gone.

DocBarrister

[HooDat]

It's not a matter of Russia "owning" Ukraine. It's foolish to discount the historical reality that THE Ukraine was a significant component part of Russia until Russia was dismembered following the Cold War.

We were a significant part of the UK’s empire. And we were also on Native American land, my friend.

Let me know when you’re ready to hand over your home to either party, and I’ll buy what you’re selling here.

So you should be cheering for the Russian separatists in the Donbass fighting for their independence.

No… I should be cheering for everyone to avail themselves of the court system if they have a complaint. “It used to be like this” isn’t a solid legal argument.

Old Salt said Mexico should try to take back Texas…he found it funny.

Texas would have a better chance of survival that the nation of Ukraine will.

hmmm...

the lesson here?........




Don't Mess with Texas!

[HooDat]

I wonder who blew up Nordtream 1 and 2? ....

The US taking away Putin's last remaining negotiating chip while simultaneously eliminating any temptation for Germany to cave sounds like a fairly plausible explanation to me.....

[a fan]

No. That's my actual opinion, expressed in this forum as far back as 2014. ...& that has nothing to do with Biden or RvD team sports.

I agree that THIS isn't R' and D sports. It's just wrong. You don't get to decide if it's a country. Surely you understand why folks would mock this idea of yours? The Ukrainians are dying over sovereignty. So it's pretty obvious that your opinion is wrong.

Urkaine is a founding member of the UN, for heaven's sake (I didn't know that).

Not when I'm called on "it ". When I'm insulted or my patriotism questioned or loyalty to country is impugned for having a long held, honest opinion, based on history. ...especially after I spent a career prepared to fight Russians of Muscovite, Ukrainian & other ethnic heritages. To me, they are not different. They're all corrupt & all squandered the opportunities they were presented when we defeated the USSR in the Cold War.

Understandable that you're annoyed by DocB's BS. But dude, YOU don't get to decide if Ukraine isn't a country, any more than Putin does. Sorry, that's not how that works. Been a country for 30 years and counting. No one complained. No one voted to become a part of Russia via peaceful means, which is how adults handle such things, both legally and morally.

I know what he won't be able to do.

Yes. But that's not the same of knowing what or when he will surrender, negotiate, or keep fighting.

I know that his ability to fight & run his country depends on US military & financial aid. We're still not providing the weapons necessary to mount a counteroffensive & drive out the Russians. Do you know why ? That's not a criticism. It's a statement of fact.

Pretty obvious that Biden is trying to keep Putin from using nukes, and also trying to keep angry Ukrainians from hitting Russia. If nukes or attacks on Russia weren't on the table? Pretty obvious to me that Biden would give them whatever they want. That makes sense to me, at least.

I don't single out Biden. It's both parties, Congress, NATO & the West, in general. Anyone who questions total commitment is branded a Putin supporter.

As I said before: you and TeamWarMonger earned this from DECADES of doing the same to anyone who questions the American War Machine. Don't like it, do you? Well.....think about that next time you pull the same thing on guys like me who try to tell you that arming Saddam is stupid and reckless...and not in America's best interest.

So why didn't they do it while Trump was in office. Why did they wait until Biden was in office & he bungled our Afghan pullout ?

How many times do I need to explain this you? Putin FACTUALLY doesn't care who is in the White House. If he did? He would have invaded when Trump was pulling us back out of NATO, and pulling us away from being a Global Cop. Because: duh.

If he was worried about who was in the White House? Invading when a decades long, charter member of TeamAmericaAsGlobalCop was the DUMBEST thing Putin could have done. EG: look what the F happened? Scoreboard. And any Russian advisor with access to Google, and a spare hour or two could have told you that's how Biden would operate overseas.

Trump greenlit the invasion ? So why didn't he invade while Trump was still in office ?

Again, simple: because that CLEARLY didn't factor anywhere into Putin's calculus. The ONLY place this make sense in FoxNation, where they have visions of Trump riding shirtless on a horse, because he's SUCH a tough guy, and Biden and his little D is weak.

And for the 1,000th time, Biden's little D has proved more than a match for Putin's clearly overrated military. Pretty obviously that Putin thought he'd hit Kiev in under a week. And he may have done just that if he invaded when Trump's America First was in charge.

Putin waited for a career old school Global Cop DC insider to take power before invading? If that's true (it's not), he's the dumbest leader Russia has ever had. I told you that Biden would restore America's role as Global Cop BEFORE he took office. Because: duh. Anyone could see that was coming. Biden did EXACTLY what you'd expect these paint-by-numbers, Cold War era American leaders to do.....

Because I'm sick of the false choice of total defeat or total victory.

Yep..it's why you're trolling and throwing temper tantrums. You just made my point for me. Making dumb, outrageous statements because you're sick of DocB's statements. I certainly don't blame you for that....but I can only react to what you put on the page.

Each one was different circumstances. None were as risky as this one with as little strategic value to the US. None of them had nucs or anywhere near the conventional power that Russia has.

Meh. We fought in Syria with Russia right there. IMO, there's no strategic value to Syria, either. But that's my opinion, not yours.

The one thing that I know is that you yourself have told me numerous times about the value of Ukraine, their ports, and access to the Black Sea, and through to the ocean. Russia is plugging that up right now, at the very least for the global grain supply....your own words again.

So coming back and claiming there's no value? Come on.

By the nature of the weapons he's not providing & he's cut back on the total victory rhetoric.

So what? You have no idea what's happening behind the scenes.

I only mention Biden when you cast my every comment as a specific critique of him. I'm arguing with the triumphalist keyboard warriors in this forum, not with Biden.

Then focus your fire on DocB and his stupid, self-important ideas.

I'm not at all convinced this is the right thing to do.....but if we've given arms to everyone and their mom over just the last 20 years, I see no moral reason to exclude Ukraine from our stupid foreign policy games of "let's arm and back a corrupt dictator". The one thing that I DO know is that Biden was handed this sh*t sandwich by the guys who negotiated with Ukraine to give up their nukes...and Putin reneged on this deal, which is no small thing.

[DocBarrister]

No. That's my actual opinion, expressed in this forum as far back as 2014. ...& that has nothing to do with Biden or RvD team sports.

I agree that THIS isn't R' and D sports. It's just wrong. You don't get to decide if it's a country. Surely you understand why folks would mock this idea of yours? The Ukrainians are dying over sovereignty. So it's pretty obvious that your opinion is wrong.

Urkaine is a founding member of the UN, for heaven's sake (I didn't know that).

Not when I'm called on "it ". When I'm insulted or my patriotism questioned or loyalty to country is impugned for having a long held, honest opinion, based on history. ...especially after I spent a career prepared to fight Russians of Muscovite, Ukrainian & other ethnic heritages. To me, they are not different. They're all corrupt & all squandered the opportunities they were presented when we defeated the USSR in the Cold War.

Understandable that you're annoyed by DocB's BS. But dude, YOU don't get to decide if Ukraine isn't a country, any more than Putin does. Sorry, that's not how that works. Been a country for 30 years and counting. No one complained. No one voted to become a part of Russia via peaceful means, which is how adults handle such things, both legally and morally.

I know what he won't be able to do.

Yes. But that's not the same of knowing what or when he will surrender, negotiate, or keep fighting.

I know that his ability to fight & run his country depends on US military & financial aid. We're still not providing the weapons necessary to mount a counteroffensive & drive out the Russians. Do you know why ? That's not a criticism. It's a statement of fact.

Pretty obvious that Biden is trying to keep Putin from using nukes, and also trying to keep angry Ukrainians from hitting Russia. If nukes or attacks on Russia weren't on the table? Pretty obvious to me that Biden would give them whatever they want. That makes sense to me, at least.

I don't single out Biden. It's both parties, Congress, NATO & the West, in general. Anyone who questions total commitment is branded a Putin supporter.

As I said before: you and TeamWarMonger earned this from DECADES of doing the same to anyone who questions the American War Machine. Don't like it, do you? Well.....think about that next time you pull the same thing on guys like me who try to tell you that arming Saddam is stupid and reckless...and not in America's best interest.

So why didn't they do it while Trump was in office. Why did they wait until Biden was in office & he bungled our Afghan pullout ?

How many times do I need to explain this you? Putin FACTUALLY doesn't care who is in the White House. If he did? He would have invaded when Trump was pulling us back out of NATO, and pulling us away from being a Global Cop. Because: duh.

If he was worried about who was in the White House? Invading when a decades long, charter member of TeamAmericaAsGlobalCop was the DUMBEST thing Putin could have done. EG: look what the F happened? Scoreboard. And any Russian advisor with access to Google, and a spare hour or two could have told you that's how Biden would operate overseas.

Trump greenlit the invasion ? So why didn't he invade while Trump was still in office ?

Again, simple: because that CLEARLY didn't factor anywhere into Putin's calculus. The ONLY place this make sense in FoxNation, where they have visions of Trump riding shirtless on a horse, because he's SUCH a tough guy, and Biden and his little D is weak.

And for the 1,000th time, Biden's little D has proved more than a match for Putin's clearly overrated military. Pretty obviously that Putin thought he'd hit Kiev in under a week. And he may have done just that if he invaded when Trump's America First was in charge.

Putin waited for a career old school Global Cop DC insider to take power before invading? If that's true (it's not), he's the dumbest leader Russia has ever had. I told you that Biden would restore America's role as Global Cop BEFORE he took office. Because: duh. Anyone could see that was coming. Biden did EXACTLY what you'd expect these paint-by-numbers, Cold War era American leaders to do.....

Because I'm sick of the false choice of total defeat or total victory.

Yep..it's why you're trolling and throwing temper tantrums. You just made my point for me. Making dumb, outrageous statements because you're sick of DocB's statements. I certainly don't blame you for that....but I can only react to what you put on the page.

Each one was different circumstances. None were as risky as this one with as little strategic value to the US. None of them had nucs or anywhere near the conventional power that Russia has.

Meh. We fought in Syria with Russia right there. IMO, there's no strategic value to Syria, either. But that's my opinion, not yours.

The one thing that I know is that you yourself have told me numerous times about the value of Ukraine, their ports, and access to the Black Sea, and through to the ocean. Russia is plugging that up right now, at the very least for the global grain supply....your own words again.

So coming back and claiming there's no value? Come on.

By the nature of the weapons he's not providing & he's cut back on the total victory rhetoric.

So what? You have no idea what's happening behind the scenes.

I only mention Biden when you cast my every comment as a specific critique of him. I'm arguing with the triumphalist keyboard warriors in this forum, not with Biden.

Then focus your fire on DocB and his stupid, self-important ideas.

I'm not at all convinced this is the right thing to do.....but if we've given arms to everyone and their mom over just the last 20 years, I see no moral reason to exclude Ukraine from our stupid foreign policy games of "let's arm and back a corrupt dictator". The one thing that I DO know is that Biden was handed this sh*t sandwich by the guys who negotiated with Ukraine to give up their nukes...and Putin reneged on this deal, which is no small thing.

Hey … just because I destroyed you in the nuclear energy debate, don’t keep insulting me.

You lost that argument fair and square.

DocBarrister

[a fan]

Hey … just because I destroyed you in the nuclear energy debate, don’t keep insulting me.

You sure did win that debate! Enjoy your fossil fuel powered Tesla, Doc.

And remember: the most important thing is to pretend that California hasn't been burning fossil fuels for the last 60 years by choice.

[youthathletics]

I wonder who blew up Nordtream 1 and 2? ....

The US taking away Putin's last remaining negotiating chip while simultaneously eliminating any temptation for Germany to cave sounds like a fairly plausible explanation to me.....

Where are the Clinton's?

[Kismet]

I wonder who blew up Nordtream 1 and 2? ....

The US taking away Putin's last remaining negotiating chip while simultaneously eliminating any temptation for Germany to cave sounds like a fairly plausible explanation to me.....

Where are the Clinton's?

or the Deep State. Tucker Carlson is all over it!!

[youthathletics]

I wonder who blew up Nordtream 1 and 2? ....

The US taking away Putin's last remaining negotiating chip while simultaneously eliminating any temptation for Germany to cave sounds like a fairly plausible explanation to me.....

Where are the Clinton's?

or the Deep State.

One in the same.

[MDlaxfan76]

It's not a matter of Russia "owning" Ukraine. It's foolish to discount the historical reality that THE Ukraine was a significant component part of Russia until Russia was dismembered following the Cold War.

We were a significant part of the UK’s empire. And we were also on Native American land, my friend.

Let me know when you’re ready to hand over your home to either party, and I’ll buy what you’re selling here.

So you should be cheering for the Russian separatists in the Donbass fighting for their independence.

No… I should be cheering for everyone to avail themselves of the court system if they have a complaint. “It used to be like this” isn’t a solid legal argument.

Old Salt said Mexico should try to take back Texas…he found it funny.

Texas would have a better chance of survival that the nation of Ukraine will.

hmmm...

the lesson here?........




Don't Mess with Texas!

generally a sound sentiment.

Not too impressed with the rightward lurch these past few years...I wonder when it'll be "don't mess with Texan women"!