Orange Duce

The odds are excellent that you will leave this forum hating someone.
Farfromgeneva
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by Farfromgeneva »

njbill wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:20 pm This is a civil case. Huge difference between civil and criminal in a case like this. I think criminal charges would be much harder to prove for all of the reasons you have been giving. In a criminal case, the state has to prove each element of the offense beyond a reasonable doubt. I can see lots of “reasonable doubt” surrounding valuation issues and a lender’s reliance or lack thereof on information provided by the borrower.
You’re a tri state guy you know they’re all scumbags. Rexlers, Cherri, Ruby Schron, Joe Moinan, Bill Mack, Harry Macklowe (on bank bad borrower list for years after paying a guy to sit in jail for demolishing a SRO in towns square against injunction) and on and on. Stephen Ross and anyone in the tax credit game. And the financiers all have eyes wide open with these cats. Criminal aside the idea that there’s an aggrieved party on the civil side seems specious but maybe winnable.

BTW if you’re in N NJ, speaking of Bill Mack, I got very close to John and Brant Cali of the Cali family who were investors in a fund I worked for before leaving NYC. Interesting guys. That merger was a disaster between Mack and Cali from their perspective.
Now I love those cowboys, I love their gold
Love my uncle, God rest his soul
Taught me good, Lord, taught me all I know
Taught me so well, that I grabbed that gold
I left his dead ass there by the side of the road, yeah
Typical Lax Dad
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

Farfromgeneva wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:54 am
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:33 am https://www.economist.com/united-states ... ew-lawsuit

Many americans who harbour nearly religious reverence for Donald Trump—especially those steeped in qAnon mythology—speak of the former president as a sort of Messiah. Of late he has resembled more the beleaguered biblical character of Job, beset by one legal woe after the next. The latest blow came on September 21st when Letitia James, the attorney-general for the state of New York, filed a lawsuit against Mr Trump, three of his children and his real-estate business alleging a “staggering” level of fraud extending over a decade. Ms James is seeking to permanently bar the Trump family from operating a business in New York and to recover $250m in ill-gotten gains. She has also referred the findings of her investigation, which has taken three years, to federal prosecutors for possible criminal charges.

A lesser man with Mr Trump’s legal burdens might have already been bowled over. A criminal investigation into possible mishandling of some of the nation’s most sensitive secrets—which led to the spectacle of fbi agents dropping by unannounced to Mr Trump’s estate of Mar-a-Lago in Florida—is likely to stretch for months. The January 6th committee in the House of Representatives has already unearthed many unflattering details of the president’s actions the day his supporters stormed the Capitol, and may seek to release more before the end of the current congressional term. The Department of Justice appears to be following its work closely. In Georgia, Fani Willis, the district attorney for Fulton County, has empanelled a grand jury to investigate the efforts of Mr Trump and his allies to overturn the election results in that state. Even someone as famously litigious and avowedly rich as Mr Trump is reportedly struggling to find enough attorneys.

Ms James’s inquiry concerns more mundane matters than election tampering and sedition. The 214-page complaint alleges that Mr Trump and his businesses flagrantly misrepresented and inflated his net worth and the value of his properties in order to mislead prospective lenders and secure preferential financing. In the 11 annual statements put out by Mr Trump’s company between 2011 and 2021, the ample team of investigating government lawyers have compiled 200 specific instances in which the assets were presented with fraudulently inflated values.

Some of the specifics are risible in their audacity. In 2015 Mr Trump’s personal flat was allegedly valued as though it were 30,000 square feet (2,787 square metres) when it was actually 10,996 square feet. The complaint also alleges that Mar-a-Lago was valued at $739m on the premise that the land could be sold and developed for residential use, when Mr Trump had in fact signed away these rights (and sought an income-tax deduction for doing so). An honest evaluation of the property’s value would have been little more than one-tenth the amount claimed, the attorney-general writes.

One of the central actors identified, Allen Weisselberg, the chief financial officer for the Trump Organisation, pleaded guilty last month to unrelated charges of tax fraud. He has agreed to testify in a separate criminal trial against the company. That trial begins in October.

But dismissing damning facts and specific allegations—whether they concern insurance fraud or mishandled nuclear secrets—has never been hard for Mr Trump. In the Trumpian alternative universe, which friendly media outlets help to create, all legal investigations against him, including Ms James’s, are simply part of a great political “witch hunt”. Before an expected presidential run in 2024, the president’s legal team is seeking to delay the inquiries until at least the election year, at which point their political motives would look even more suspicious.

Mr Trump takes his supporters’ loyalty for granted, and is not scared to invoke it to shield himself from legal scrutiny. When he was asked on September 17th by a conservative radio host what would follow after an indictment, he answered: “You’d have problems in this country the likes of which perhaps we’ve never seen before. I don’t think the people of the United States would stand for it.”

Despite years of legal jeopardy, no one can credibly challenge Mr Trump’s hold over the Republican Party. Enough of his supporters see him as a latter-day Job—a good and prophetic man put upon for no reason other than his own virtue. And they hope that their hero has the same happy ending: after a long despondency, restoration to a glory even greater than before.
I still think DB knew exactly what he had and what he was worth. Ladder too even if they didn’t care since they were writing conduit loans and selling off the risk anyways (and those are non recourse too)
What about the IRS?
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Typical Lax Dad
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

And these guys:

https://www.businessinsurance.com/artic ... titia-Jame

Assets on PFS are under and over stated all the time. I am less interested in that.
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Farfromgeneva
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by Farfromgeneva »

Typical Lax Dad wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:04 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:54 am
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:33 am https://www.economist.com/united-states ... ew-lawsuit

Many americans who harbour nearly religious reverence for Donald Trump—especially those steeped in qAnon mythology—speak of the former president as a sort of Messiah. Of late he has resembled more the beleaguered biblical character of Job, beset by one legal woe after the next. The latest blow came on September 21st when Letitia James, the attorney-general for the state of New York, filed a lawsuit against Mr Trump, three of his children and his real-estate business alleging a “staggering” level of fraud extending over a decade. Ms James is seeking to permanently bar the Trump family from operating a business in New York and to recover $250m in ill-gotten gains. She has also referred the findings of her investigation, which has taken three years, to federal prosecutors for possible criminal charges.

A lesser man with Mr Trump’s legal burdens might have already been bowled over. A criminal investigation into possible mishandling of some of the nation’s most sensitive secrets—which led to the spectacle of fbi agents dropping by unannounced to Mr Trump’s estate of Mar-a-Lago in Florida—is likely to stretch for months. The January 6th committee in the House of Representatives has already unearthed many unflattering details of the president’s actions the day his supporters stormed the Capitol, and may seek to release more before the end of the current congressional term. The Department of Justice appears to be following its work closely. In Georgia, Fani Willis, the district attorney for Fulton County, has empanelled a grand jury to investigate the efforts of Mr Trump and his allies to overturn the election results in that state. Even someone as famously litigious and avowedly rich as Mr Trump is reportedly struggling to find enough attorneys.

Ms James’s inquiry concerns more mundane matters than election tampering and sedition. The 214-page complaint alleges that Mr Trump and his businesses flagrantly misrepresented and inflated his net worth and the value of his properties in order to mislead prospective lenders and secure preferential financing. In the 11 annual statements put out by Mr Trump’s company between 2011 and 2021, the ample team of investigating government lawyers have compiled 200 specific instances in which the assets were presented with fraudulently inflated values.

Some of the specifics are risible in their audacity. In 2015 Mr Trump’s personal flat was allegedly valued as though it were 30,000 square feet (2,787 square metres) when it was actually 10,996 square feet. The complaint also alleges that Mar-a-Lago was valued at $739m on the premise that the land could be sold and developed for residential use, when Mr Trump had in fact signed away these rights (and sought an income-tax deduction for doing so). An honest evaluation of the property’s value would have been little more than one-tenth the amount claimed, the attorney-general writes.

One of the central actors identified, Allen Weisselberg, the chief financial officer for the Trump Organisation, pleaded guilty last month to unrelated charges of tax fraud. He has agreed to testify in a separate criminal trial against the company. That trial begins in October.

But dismissing damning facts and specific allegations—whether they concern insurance fraud or mishandled nuclear secrets—has never been hard for Mr Trump. In the Trumpian alternative universe, which friendly media outlets help to create, all legal investigations against him, including Ms James’s, are simply part of a great political “witch hunt”. Before an expected presidential run in 2024, the president’s legal team is seeking to delay the inquiries until at least the election year, at which point their political motives would look even more suspicious.

Mr Trump takes his supporters’ loyalty for granted, and is not scared to invoke it to shield himself from legal scrutiny. When he was asked on September 17th by a conservative radio host what would follow after an indictment, he answered: “You’d have problems in this country the likes of which perhaps we’ve never seen before. I don’t think the people of the United States would stand for it.”

Despite years of legal jeopardy, no one can credibly challenge Mr Trump’s hold over the Republican Party. Enough of his supporters see him as a latter-day Job—a good and prophetic man put upon for no reason other than his own virtue. And they hope that their hero has the same happy ending: after a long despondency, restoration to a glory even greater than before.
I still think DB knew exactly what he had and what he was worth. Ladder too even if they didn’t care since they were writing conduit loans and selling off the risk anyways (and those are non recourse too)
What about the IRS?
My very first comments were IRS, obviously this classified doc stupidity of his, and many other things are rock solid it seems.

IRS probably is more political in that they could be accused of selective enforcement but that should be a easier path. Sort of my point, why push more difficult to prove items when it cousin distract and open the door for more/other public defenses and related.
Now I love those cowboys, I love their gold
Love my uncle, God rest his soul
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Farfromgeneva
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by Farfromgeneva »

Typical Lax Dad wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:21 pm And these guys:

https://www.businessinsurance.com/artic ... titia-Jame

Assets on PFS are under and over stated all the time. I am less interested in that.
That could be more interesting. As insurance is highly regulated as well I suspect this one could cause him more trouble.
Now I love those cowboys, I love their gold
Love my uncle, God rest his soul
Taught me good, Lord, taught me all I know
Taught me so well, that I grabbed that gold
I left his dead ass there by the side of the road, yeah
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

It’s important to understand that James is an elected official, unlike the prosecutors who will be considering federal criminal prosecution. As such, she is answerable to the voters as well as the rule of law.

From a legal perspective; the civil charges require a much lower proof standard and Trumps taking the 5th may be considered adversely to him.

SO, I think what James is doing with the massive recitation of lies made by Trump and his family is to show the persistent pattern of fraudulent activity, and conspiracy to defraud, rather than a specific concern about any particular aggrieved party, especially the most sophisticated such. Rather it is to demonstrate that Trump and co was effectively a persistent fraudulent enterprise.

It is in the interest of NY taxpayers, voters, etc to shut down and punish such persistent and aggravated fraud.

Specific aggrieved parties may separately sue to recover damages, if they wish… that’s not James’ task.

And criminal prosecutors will make their own decisions as to which offenses they wish to charge based upon probability of successful prosecution.

And they may well decide not to focus on the bank fraud, unless they have slam dunk cases for particular transactions.

But there’s plenty of other criminal fraud.
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:59 pm It’s important to understand that James is an elected official, unlike the prosecutors who will be considering federal criminal prosecution. As such, she is answerable to the voters as well as the rule of law.

From a legal perspective; the civil charges require a much lower proof standard and Trumps taking the 5th may be considered adversely to him.

SO, I think what James is doing with the massive recitation of lies made by Trump and his family is to show the persistent pattern of fraudulent activity, and conspiracy to defraud, rather than a specific concern about any particular aggrieved party, especially the most sophisticated such. Rather it is to demonstrate that Trump and co was effectively a persistent fraudulent enterprise.

It is in the interest of NY taxpayers, voters, etc to shut down and punish such persistent and aggravated fraud.

Specific aggrieved parties may separately sue to recover damages, if they wish… that’s not James’ task.

And criminal prosecutors will make their own decisions as to which offenses they wish to charge based upon probability of successful prosecution.

And they may well decide not to focus on the bank fraud, unless they have slam dunk cases for particular transactions.

But there’s plenty of other criminal fraud.
Yes. The tax fraud is state level, I believe.
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

I’d think that it would be both state and federal, given that the fraud would effect underpayment of taxes at both levels.
Typical Lax Dad
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:56 pm I’d think that it would be both state and federal, given that the fraud would effect underpayment of taxes at both levels.
I was focusing on this activity didn’t think about feds. More trouble for him.

https://www.politico.com/amp/news/2022/ ... x-00058178

A lawsuit that New York Attorney General Letitia James filed Wednesday against Trump, family members and his business conglomerate accuses the former president of artificially inflating land appraisals to get bigger tax breaks for keeping some land at his properties off limits for development.

“Conservation easements,” as the donations are known in tax parlance, are perfectly legal and supported by conservation advocates who consider them a valuable tool for preserving open space for wildlife, protecting wetlands and other purposes.

But unscrupulous landowners and investors can game the system.
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Farfromgeneva
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by Farfromgeneva »

Typical Lax Dad wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:08 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:56 pm I’d think that it would be both state and federal, given that the fraud would effect underpayment of taxes at both levels.
I was focusing on this activity didn’t think about feds. More trouble for him.

https://www.politico.com/amp/news/2022/ ... x-00058178

A lawsuit that New York Attorney General Letitia James filed Wednesday against Trump, family members and his business conglomerate accuses the former president of artificially inflating land appraisals to get bigger tax breaks for keeping some land at his properties off limits for development.

“Conservation easements,” as the donations are known in tax parlance, are perfectly legal and supported by conservation advocates who consider them a valuable tool for preserving open space for wildlife, protecting wetlands and other purposes.

But unscrupulous landowners and investors can game the system.
Think I mentioned this earlier. It’s a totally fraudulent activity Industry wide but the IRS has been cracking down last few years because it made no sense how the new appraisals were justifying massive values for donated, weak land parcels. I’ve utilized it for friends a few times but it’s total BS.

https://cenrep.ncsu.edu/cenrep/wp-conte ... -017-1.pdf

https://news.bloombergtax.com/daily-tax ... egulations

https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/ ... intentions

https://dc.law.utah.edu/cgi/viewcontent ... cholarship
Now I love those cowboys, I love their gold
Love my uncle, God rest his soul
Taught me good, Lord, taught me all I know
Taught me so well, that I grabbed that gold
I left his dead ass there by the side of the road, yeah
Seacoaster(1)
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

https://aaronrupar.substack.com/p/trump ... mar-a-lago

"On the same day that he endured legal setbacks on two fronts, Donald Trump recorded an interview with Sean Hannity in which he made things much worse.

That’s not an easy thing to do. Hannity has spent years fawning over Trump and doing interviews with him that are the epitome of puffy. The latest installment was no different. Hannity even spent part of it workshopping legal defenses for Trump. But these days, just letting the former guy talk on TV is all it takes for him to do a lot of self-inflicted damage.

As you’re no doubt aware, Trump is under criminal investigation for mishandling classified documents he took to Mar-a-Lago — the target of a recent FBI search and the location of Wednesday’s interview. Even as Hannity coached him, Trump’s defense of his conduct was so ridiculous that it should’ve aired on Comedy Central.

There is a process presidents must follow for declassifying documents. Trump didn’t do that. But to hear him tell it, all it took was some mind power.

“These doesn’t have to be a process,” Trump told Hannity. “You can declassify by just thinking about it.”

Even more preposterously, Trump went on to claim the FBI may have been looking for Hillary’s emails at Mar-a-Lago. He didn’t really seem to be joking.

Watch the whole clip:

https://twitter.com/BGrueskin/status/15 ... 6515532803

Trump later suggested, without evidence, that the FBI planted evidence at his residence.

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1572762940666949633

So Trump’s version of events is that he declassified documents that were planted by the FBI. Or something. Along similar lines, at another point Trump told Hannity that he both completed the wall and would’ve completed it if he had just a few more weeks in office.

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1572756446760284160

Absurdities of this sort may be enough for Hannity, who would nod along if Trump told him 2+2=5. They may not bother Fox News viewers either. But they’re not going over well in court.

It’s one thing to lie about the wall. But as I’ve written about in this newsletter elsewhere, by confusing his legal problems with PR ones and trying to BS his way out of them, Trump is creating headaches for his lawyers and possibly increasing his criminal exposure.

Thank goodness he doesn’t know better."
njbill
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by njbill »

I think it is terrible Trump is now being prosecuted for thought crimes.
ggait
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by ggait »

Where the other side are sophisticated lenders, I think the "everyone knows I'm completely full of it" defense is going to be pretty strong. If no one relies on the BS, hard to prove anyone was defrauded.

So Trump said his Trump Tower apartment was an absurd 33k square feet, rather than the accurate 11,000 squares.

Same guy who said for years his place is on the 68th floor of Trump Tower. Which has 58 floors.
Last edited by ggait on Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Boycott stupid. If you ignore the gator troll, eventually he'll just go back under his bridge.
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HooDat
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by HooDat »

ggait wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:16 pm Same guy who said for years his place is on the 68th floor of Trump Tower. Which has 58 floors.
:lol: :lol:
STILL somewhere back in the day....

...and waiting/hoping for a tinfoil hat emoji......
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/22/opin ... -joke.html

"Donald Trump’s so-called big lie is not big because of its brazen dishonesty or its widespread influence or its unyielding grip over the Republican Party. It is not even big because of its ambition — to delegitimize a presidency, disenfranchise millions of voters, clap back against reality. No, the lie that Donald Trump won the 2020 election has grown so powerful because it is yoked to an older deception, without which it could not survive: the idea that American politics is, in essence, a joke, and that it can be treated as such without consequence.

The big lie depends on the big joke. It was enabled by it. It was enhanced by it. It is sustained by it.

When politicians publicly defend positions they privately reject, they are telling the joke. When they give up on the challenge of governing the country for the rush of triggering the enemy, they are telling the joke. When they intone that they must address the very fears they have encouraged or manufactured among their constituents, they are telling the joke. When their off-the-record smirks signal that they don’t really mean what they just said or did, they are telling the joke. As the big lie spirals ever deeper into unreality, with the former president mixing election falsehoods with call-outs to violent, conspiratorial fantasies, the big joke has much to answer for.

Recent books like “Why We Did It: A Travelogue From the Republican Road to Hell” by a former Republican operative and campaign consultant, Tim Miller, and “Thank You for Your Servitude: Donald Trump’s Washington and the Price of Submission” by The Atlantic’s Mark Leibovich place this long-running gag at the center of American politics. The big joke drains language of meaning, divorces action from responsibility and enables all manner of lies. “Getting the joke” means understanding that nothing you say need be true, that nobody expects it to be true — at least nobody in the know. “The truth of this scam, or ‘joke,’ was fully evident inside the club,” Leibovich writes. “We’re all friends here. Everyone knew the secret handshake, spoke the native language, and got the joke.”

Without the big joke, the big lie would not merit its adjective. Its challenge to democracy would be ephemeral, not existential.

The chroniclers of Donald Trump’s election lie typically seek out an origin story, a choose-your-own adventure that always leads to the Capitol steps on Jan. 6, 2021. In his book, “The Big Lie: Election Chaos, Political Opportunism, and the State of American Politics After 2020,” Politico’s Jonathan Lemire pinpoints an August 2016 campaign rally in Columbus, Ohio, during which Trump first suggested that the contest against Hillary Clinton would be rigged against him. This, Lemire writes, was when “the seeds of the big lie had been planted.”

Tim Alberta of The Atlantic starts six months earlier, when Trump accused Senator Ted Cruz of Texas of cheating in the Iowa caucuses. “That episode was a bright red, blinking light foreshadowing everything that was to come,” Alberta told PBS Frontline. In “The Destructionists: The Twenty-Five Year Crack-Up of the Republican Party,” the Washington Post columnist (and my former colleague) Dana Milbank offers a far longer accumulation of lies from the right: The notion that Bill and Hillary Clinton were involved in the death of the White House lawyer Vince Foster, the illusions behind President George W. Bush’s invasion of Iraq, the birther concoctions, the death-panel ravings — all building toward the big one. “The G.O.P.’s quarter-century war on facts had come to this, a gargantuan fabrication aimed at discrediting democracy itself,” Milbank sums up. And Leibovich quotes Representative Adam Schiff’s view of how his House colleagues slowly submitted to Trump’s fantasies. “It’s one small lie, followed by a demand for a bigger lie and a bigger concession, a bigger moral lapse, until, you know, these folks that I admired and respected, because I believe that they believe what they were saying, had given themselves up so completely to Donald Trump.”

Such accounts reflect the common understanding that the big lie is really all the little lies we told along the way — a cycle of deceit and submission, culminating in a myth so powerful that it transcends belief and becomes a fully formed worldview. Lemire notes how Trump’s assertion that he had been wiretapped by President Barack Obama during the 2016 campaign seemed like a pretty gargantuan lie at the time, one that Trump tweeted “without any evidence.” (Journalists love to note that the former president utters falsehoods “without evidence,” an adorable euphemism for “making stuff up.”) But even this one dissipates in the wake of the big lie. After “big,” the term “unprecedented” may be the election lie’s most common descriptor.

But it is not without precedent. After all, what was birtherism if not the same lie? Its underlying racism rendered the grotesque theory about Obama’s birthplace especially repugnant, but the basic assertion is familiar: that a president whom the American people lawfully chose is not legitimate, is something less than the real thing.

The 2020 election lie is not bigger than birtherism. History should not remember the effort to delegitimize Obama’s presidency as just another rung on the ladder toward the big lie. The lies are akin even in their power of persuasion. Leibovich recalls how in 2016, 72 percent of Republicans said they believed Trump’s lies about Obama’s background. This figure is comparable with the 71 percent of Republicans who said in late 2021 that they believed President Biden was not a fully legitimate president. And much as support for the 2020 election lie provides a loyalty test in the Trumpified Republican Party, a willingness to believe the worst of Obama was a near-requirement in the party during his presidency. “A testing ground for Republican squishiness was how strongly, and how bitterly, one opposed Obama,” the historian Nicole Hemmer recalls in her new book, “Partisans: The Conservative Revolutionaries Who Remade American Politics in the 1990s,” on the rise of the post-Reagan right. “To match the response of the party’s base, politicians would need to reflect the emotions gripping it.” And they did.

For Hemmer, the Republican Party’s evolution from the party of Reagan to the party of Trump began with Pat Buchanan, the White House aide, television pundit and authoritarian-curious presidential candidate who “fashioned grievance politics into an agenda,” she writes — a program that emphasized identity, immigration and race as its battlegrounds. For Milbank, it was Newt Gingrich, the former House speaker, and the “savage politics he pioneered” in advance of the Republican Revolution of 1994. “There was nobody better at attacking, destroying, and undermining those in power,” Milbank writes. Gingrich made compromise a thought crime and labeled his opponents as sick and traitorous, tactics that should also sound familiar.

You needn’t pick between Buchanan and Gingrich — it’s enough to say that Buchanan gave the modern Republican Party its substance and Gingrich provided its style. (I imagine they’d both be honored by the distinctions.) When Trump dispatched his supporters to the Capitol on Jan. 6, telling them to “fight like hell,” urging them to preserve a country that was slipping away, calling them patriots who could take back an election stolen by the radical left, he was channeling both men. The big lie is part of their legacy, too.

In his j’accuse-y yet semi-confessional “Why We Did It,” Miller, now a writer at large for the anti-Trump conservative forum The Bulwark, tries to grasp why his old colleagues followed Trump all the way to his rally at the Ellipse on Jan. 6. “I needed to figure out where our parting had started,” he writes. Miller grasps the futility of seeking a single origin story — “I’m sure a student of history might be able to trace it back to the Southern Strategy or Lee Atwater or, hell, maybe even Mark Hanna (give him a Google),” Miller writes — but he does hazard some explanations. He points to Republicans’ ability to compartmentalize concerns about Trump. Their unquenchable compulsion to be in the mix. Their self-serving belief that they could channel dark arts for noble purposes. Their desire to make money. (Miller acknowledges his own paid work helping the confirmation of Scott Pruitt as Trump’s Environmental Protection Agency administrator, a stint that makes Miller more of a Barely Trumper than a Never Trumper.) Most of all, his old colleagues succumbed to Trump because they believed they were playing “some big game devoid of real-world consequences.”

Miller lingers on this game — the amoral world of tactics, messaging and opposition research, the realm of politics where facts matter less than cleverness and nothing matters more than results. He once thought of it as winning the race, being a killer, just a dishonest buck for a dishonest day’s work. “Practitioners of politics could easily dismiss moralistic or technical concerns just by throwing down their trump card: ‘It’s all part of the Game,’” Miller writes. He has a nickname for the comrades so immersed in the game that they are oblivious to its consequences: the LOL Nothing Matters Republicans. “The LOLNMRs had decided that if someone like Trump could win, then everything that everyone does in politics is meaningless.”

The big lie thrives on LOL Nothing Matters.

What Miller calls “the game” becomes “the joke” in Leibovich’s book, the depressing tale of the high-level supplicants who surrounded Trump during his presidency and continue to grovel in what they hope will be an interregnum. If the purely transactional nature of Washington power was the subject of Leibovich’s 2013 best seller, “This Town,” the mix of mendacity and subservience behind every transaction is the theme of his latest work. Reince Priebus, during his incarnation as Republican National Committee chairman before his six-month sojourn as Trump’s White House chief of staff, explained to Leibovich that of course, he got the joke. “This was his way of reassuring me that he understood what was really happening beyond his surface niceties about unity, tolerance, grace, or the idea that Trump could ever ‘pivot,’” Leibovich writes. In other words, don’t take his words seriously. “He got the joke and knew that I did, too.”

The platonic ideal of the big joke was immortalized in The Washington Post the week after the 2020 election, uttered by an anonymous senior Republican official reflecting on Trump’s election claims. “What is the downside for humoring him for this little bit of time? No one seriously thinks the results will change. He went golfing this weekend. It’s not like he’s plotting how to prevent Joe Biden from taking power on Jan. 20.” It was wrong in so many ways — the downside would prove enormous, the believers would become legion, the plotting was underway.

The big lie is that the election was stolen; the big joke is that you can prolong that lie without consequence. The former is a quest for undeserved power; the latter is an evasion of well-deserved responsibility.

Other renditions of the big joke were more subtle. A few days after the election, a reporter asked Secretary of State Mike Pompeo if the State Department was preparing to work with the Biden team to facilitate a “smooth transition” of power. “There will be a smooth transition,” Pompeo responded, making the slightest of pauses before adding, “to a second Trump administration.” He then chuckled, a possible signal that he was aware of the truth, and that he “hoped that perhaps everyone understood his position,” Leibovich writes.

Pompeo got the big joke about the big lie. Yet the man charged with representing American values to the world still felt he had to tell both.

Representative Adam Kinzinger, one of 10 Republican House members to vote in favor of Trump’s second impeachment, says the joke is well understood among his party colleagues. “For all but a handful of members, if you put them on truth serum, they knew that the election was fully legitimate and that Donald Trump was a joke,” Kinzinger told Leibovich. “The vast majority of people get the joke. I think Kevin McCarthy gets the joke. Lindsey gets the joke. The problem is that the joke isn’t even funny anymore.” Humoring Trump has grown humorless.

There was a time when even Trump grappled with the truth. Alyssa Farah Griffin, who served as communications director in the Trump White House, told PBS’s “Frontline” that the president admitted defeat in the days after the election was called for Biden. “There was one moment where in this period he was watching Joe Biden on TV and says, ‘Can you believe I lost to this (blank) guy?’”

But what once may have sounded like a rhetorical lament — can you believe I lost? — now seems like a challenge to anyone questioning the big lie. Can you believe I lost? There is only one acceptable answer. In his rally last weekend in Youngstown, Ohio, Trump reiterated his commitment to the lie. “I ran twice. I won twice,” he declared. For a moment, when bragging about how many more votes he won in 2020 than in 2016, the veil almost fell. “We got 12 million more and we lost,” Trump said, before recovering. “We didn’t lose,” he continued. “We lost in their imagination.” It was a classic Trumpian projection: The lie is true and the truth is fake.

The big lie appeared to crescendo on Jan. 6, 2021. The big joke, however, was retold during the early hours of Jan. 7, when the election results were certified, with 147 Republican lawmakers — more than half of the total — having voted to overturn them. As Milbank puts it, “once you’ve unhitched yourself from the truth wagon, there’s no limit to the places you can visit.” You can use exaggerated warnings of voter fraud to justify state-level initiatives tightening ballot access. (Lemire warns that the big lie has “metastasized” from a rallying cry into the “cold, methodical process of legislation.”) You can select election deniers to carry the party banner in midterm contests. And yes, you can visit the Capitol on the day the voters’ will is being affirmed, trash the place and tell yourself, as the Republican National Committee suggested, that you’re engaging in “legitimate political discourse.”

The R.N.C.’s statement, part of a resolution censuring Kinzinger and Representative Liz Cheney for participating in the House’s Jan. 6 investigation, seemed to rebrand the assault as an exercise in civic virtue. The R.N.C. soon backtracked, professing that the resolution had not endorsed the violence at the Capitol.

In a perverse sense, though, the R.N.C. was right. Not about the rioters, but about the discourse. Political debate has become so degraded that it includes every kind of offense, be it anonymous officials humoring the former president, QAnon conspiracists exalting him or frenzied die-hards perpetrating violence on his behalf. Together, the big joke and the big lie have turned the nation’s political life into a dark comedy, one staged for the benefit of aggrieved supporters who, imagining that the performance is real and acting on that belief, become its only punchline."
njbill
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Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:35 am

Re: Orange Duce

Post by njbill »

I’d be interested in what comes out in discovery. In particular, what do the banks’ internal underwriting documents say about the values Trump provided? What do the bank people say when they are deposed? I bet the state already has the banks’ records and has already deposed at least some number of the bank folks.

Not sure if his plea agreement requires Allen the weasel to testify in this new case, but if it does, that’s yet another nail in the coffin.

We are all discussing the case in the context of the elements of a common law fraud claim. I haven’t read the entire 200+ page complaint, and don’t plan to, but I suspect there are at least some number of claims or counts in there that don’t pertain to a traditional fraud claim, which requires reasonable reliance on the part of the person defrauded.

If, as many expect, the case will be settled, I think any settlement will not be very favorable to Trump because, while it is theoretically possible he could win before a jury, I think the odds of that are not good at all. And he knows that. He is a New Yorker and knows how hated he is in New York.
DocBarrister
Posts: 6688
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:00 pm

Accused Rapist Donald Trump

Post by DocBarrister »

Just how much trouble is Trump in? So much trouble that two potential civil litigation matters in which the plaintiff has accused Trump of raping her barely garner any attention.

NEW YORK, Sept 20 (Reuters) - A writer who accused Donald Trump of raping her more than a quarter-century ago plans to file a new lawsuit against the former U.S. president, whose lawyer called the effort "extraordinarily prejudicial."

In a letter made public on Tuesday, a lawyer for E. Jean Carroll said the former Elle magazine columnist plans to sue Trump for battery and intentional infliction of emotional distress under New York state's Adult Survivors Act.

That law, recently signed by New York Governor Kathy Hochul, gives adult accusers a one-year window to bring civil claims over alleged sexual misconduct regardless of how long ago it occurred.

Carroll has accused Trump of raping her in late 1995 or early 1996 in a dressing room at the Bergdorf Goodman department store in Midtown Manhattan.


https://www.reuters.com/legal/trump-rap ... 022-09-20/

The plaintiff’s defamation case against Trump goes to trial next February.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/07/19/tri ... duled.html


DocBarrister :shock:
@DocBarrister
get it to x
Posts: 1365
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:58 pm

Re: Accused Rapist Donald Trump

Post by get it to x »

DocBarrister wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:45 pm Just how much trouble is Trump in? So much trouble that two potential civil litigation matters in which the plaintiff has accused Trump of raping her barely garner any attention.

NEW YORK, Sept 20 (Reuters) - A writer who accused Donald Trump of raping her more than a quarter-century ago plans to file a new lawsuit against the former U.S. president, whose lawyer called the effort "extraordinarily prejudicial."

In a letter made public on Tuesday, a lawyer for E. Jean Carroll said the former Elle magazine columnist plans to sue Trump for battery and intentional infliction of emotional distress under New York state's Adult Survivors Act.

That law, recently signed by New York Governor Kathy Hochul, gives adult accusers a one-year window to bring civil claims over alleged sexual misconduct regardless of how long ago it occurred.

Carroll has accused Trump of raping her in late 1995 or early 1996 in a dressing room at the Bergdorf Goodman department store in Midtown Manhattan.


https://www.reuters.com/legal/trump-rap ... 022-09-20/

The plaintiff’s defamation case against Trump goes to trial next February.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/07/19/tri ... duled.html


DocBarrister :shock:
She has the same eyes as your emoji. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
"I would never want to belong to a club that would have me as a member", Groucho Marx
get it to x
Posts: 1365
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:58 pm

Re: Accused Rapist Donald Trump

Post by get it to x »

get it to x wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:08 pm
DocBarrister wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:45 pm Just how much trouble is Trump in? So much trouble that two potential civil litigation matters in which the plaintiff has accused Trump of raping her barely garner any attention.

NEW YORK, Sept 20 (Reuters) - A writer who accused Donald Trump of raping her more than a quarter-century ago plans to file a new lawsuit against the former U.S. president, whose lawyer called the effort "extraordinarily prejudicial."

In a letter made public on Tuesday, a lawyer for E. Jean Carroll said the former Elle magazine columnist plans to sue Trump for battery and intentional infliction of emotional distress under New York state's Adult Survivors Act.

That law, recently signed by New York Governor Kathy Hochul, gives adult accusers a one-year window to bring civil claims over alleged sexual misconduct regardless of how long ago it occurred.

Carroll has accused Trump of raping her in late 1995 or early 1996 in a dressing room at the Bergdorf Goodman department store in Midtown Manhattan.


https://www.reuters.com/legal/trump-rap ... 022-09-20/

The plaintiff’s defamation case against Trump goes to trial next February.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/07/19/tri ... duled.html


DocBarrister :shock:
She has the same eyes as your emoji. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I would add that the NY law looks like a Bill of Attainder to me. A one year window. How convenient.
"I would never want to belong to a club that would have me as a member", Groucho Marx
DocBarrister
Posts: 6688
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:00 pm

Re: Accused Rapist Donald Trump

Post by DocBarrister »

get it to x wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:08 pm
DocBarrister wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:45 pm Just how much trouble is Trump in? So much trouble that two potential civil litigation matters in which the plaintiff has accused Trump of raping her barely garner any attention.

NEW YORK, Sept 20 (Reuters) - A writer who accused Donald Trump of raping her more than a quarter-century ago plans to file a new lawsuit against the former U.S. president, whose lawyer called the effort "extraordinarily prejudicial."

In a letter made public on Tuesday, a lawyer for E. Jean Carroll said the former Elle magazine columnist plans to sue Trump for battery and intentional infliction of emotional distress under New York state's Adult Survivors Act.

That law, recently signed by New York Governor Kathy Hochul, gives adult accusers a one-year window to bring civil claims over alleged sexual misconduct regardless of how long ago it occurred.

Carroll has accused Trump of raping her in late 1995 or early 1996 in a dressing room at the Bergdorf Goodman department store in Midtown Manhattan.


https://www.reuters.com/legal/trump-rap ... 022-09-20/

The plaintiff’s defamation case against Trump goes to trial next February.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/07/19/tri ... duled.html


DocBarrister :shock:
She has the same eyes as your emoji. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
What is it that you find so funny?

That Donald Trump has been credibly accused of rape?

Or do you customarily mock alleged rape victims?

DocBarrister :?
@DocBarrister
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