All Things Russia & Ukraine

[Typical Lax Dad]

Putin had the green light under Trump. Even I understand that.

That makes no sense. If that were true, Putin would have invaded while Trump was in office

Nope. I know, this is going over your head because you think everything...and I mean everything..... that happens outside of America is 1000% dependent on the party affiliation of the American President....

.....maybe who was in the White House had NOTHING to do with Putin's timing on his invasion? I know, i know....this means that you Republican don't get to puff up and pretend like Dems are weak, and Republicans like Trump (snicker) are streetwise tough-guys. Because nothing says I'm a tough-guy more than crapping on a gold plated toilet, am-I-right, OS?

.....& Trump would not have provided the massive US aid which has allowed Ukraine to survive. You are now seeing the impact of US military support & training provided before the war which increased under Trump.

Right. All the arms and money sent by Biden, naturally, hasn't been any help whatsoever.

It's all Trump. Only Republicans handle foreign policy perfectly, OS. We get it.

Obama (advised by his Ukraine point-man VP Biden, declined to provide lethal military aid.

Right. So.....why didn't Putin invade from 12-18, while "weak" Obama was in charge? Was he busy putting the finishing touches on his baseball card collection, and just couldn't be bothered? Six years is a big window. And you just told us that Obama refused to send the neat-o stuff that Trump sent so.....tell me why Putin didn't invade under Obama?

Yeah, there it is....you figured it out.......it's pretty obvious that Putin has his own internal reasons for invading when he did, and that had NOTHING to do with who was in the White House. As we can see, his timing was sh(t, among other problems.

But make no mistake: Trump told the world that he'd stop "endless wars" about a million times, OS. What the F do you think that signaled to Putin about Ukraine? It meant: we're not gonna get involved, not our problem. And Trump was CLEARLY not going to send US troops, just like Biden...or Obama, for that matter.

Putin was going to invade when Obama was in his second term but saw that Trump was going to win and was afraid….when Joe won, he figured Old Weak Joe would let him have The Ukraine as Old Strategist suggested.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Putin had the green light under Trump. Even I understand that.

That makes no sense. If that were true, Putin would have invaded while Trump was in office

Nope. I know, this is going over your head because you think everything...and I mean everything..... that happens outside of America is 1000% dependent on the party affiliation of the American President....

.....maybe who was in the White House had NOTHING to do with Putin's timing on his invasion? I know, i know....this means that you Republican don't get to puff up and pretend like Dems are weak, and Republicans like Trump (snicker) are streetwise tough-guys. Because nothing says I'm a tough-guy more than crapping on a gold plated toilet, am-I-right, OS?

.....& Trump would not have provided the massive US aid which has allowed Ukraine to survive. You are now seeing the impact of US military support & training provided before the war which increased under Trump.

Right. All the arms and money sent by Biden, naturally, hasn't been any help whatsoever.

It's all Trump. Only Republicans handle foreign policy perfectly, OS. We get it.

Obama (advised by his Ukraine point-man VP Biden, declined to provide lethal military aid.

Right. So.....why didn't Putin invade from 12-18, while "weak" Obama was in charge? Was he busy putting the finishing touches on his baseball card collection, and just couldn't be bothered? Six years is a big window. And you just told us that Obama refused to send the neat-o stuff that Trump sent so.....tell me why Putin didn't invade under Obama?

Yeah, there it is....you figured it out.......it's pretty obvious that Putin has his own internal reasons for invading when he did, and that had NOTHING to do with who was in the White House. As we can see, his timing was sh(t, among other problems.

But make no mistake: Trump told the world that he'd stop "endless wars" about a million times, OS. What the F do you think that signaled to Putin about Ukraine? It meant: we're not gonna get involved, not our problem. And Trump was CLEARLY not going to send US troops, just like Biden...or Obama, for that matter.

Speaking of dropping deuces…

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8EEhFm7Ua6c

Old Soldier believes Tyrone Biggums cuts deals for the Big Guy….Here is Hunter getting paid to give a seminar….

[old salt]

Putin had the green light under Trump. Even I understand that.

That makes no sense. If that were true, Putin would have invaded while Trump was in office

Nope. I know, this is going over your head because you think everything...and I mean everything..... that happens outside of America is 1000% dependent on the party affiliation of the American President....

.....maybe who was in the White House had NOTHING to do with Putin's timing on his invasion? I know, i know....this means that you Republican don't get to puff up and pretend like Dems are weak, and Republicans like Trump (snicker) are streetwise tough-guys. Because nothing says I'm a tough-guy more than crapping on a gold plated toilet, am-I-right, OS? Time Out. You're the one who brought into the discussion who was the US President. You chose to make it a factor. I'm saying that made no sense. Putin invaded after Zelensky declared his intent to pursue NATO & EU membership. Biden was more likely than Trump to support that NATO expansion.

.....& Trump would not have provided the massive US aid which has allowed Ukraine to survive. You are now seeing the impact of US military support & training provided before the war which increased under Trump.

Right. All the arms and money sent by Biden, naturally, hasn't been any help whatsoever.
...AFTER the invasion. It has been just enough to not lose or to provoke an escalation. If Biden was committed to a proxy war, he should have started the buildup in military aid when Russia began massing their forces near the border with Ukraine & in Belarus.

It's all Trump. Only Republicans handle foreign policy perfectly, OS. We get it.
You have a conveniently short memory. I was critical of the W Bush admin for the final NATO expansion & offering NATO membership to Ukraine & fomenting the Orange Revolution & regime change. That's when we started down this path toward civil war between 2 former Russian states. You may have noticed that Belarus has not gone to war with the rest of the former Russia. ...modern history did not start in 1992.

Obama (advised by his Ukraine point-man VP Biden, declined to provide lethal military aid.

Right. So.....why didn't Putin invade from 12-18, while "weak" Obama was in charge? Was he busy putting the finishing touches on his baseball card collection, and just couldn't be bothered? Six years is a big window. And you just told us that Obama refused to send the neat-o stuff that Trump sent so.....tell me why Putin didn't invade under Obama? He took Crimea & territory in the Donbas in 2014 while Obama watched & hurled rhetorical thunderbolts, then sent blankets & stale MREs. You don't remember it because the corrupt Ukrainian patriots did not care enough to defend their "Ukrainian" homeland.
Yeah, there it is....you figured it out.......it's pretty obvious that Putin has his own internal reasons for invading when he did, and that had NOTHING to do with who was in the White House. You just told us Putin had a GreenLight under Trump. You think sending Javelins & deploying an armored brigade to Poland & the Baltic allied states wasn't at least a Yellow light.As we can see, his timing was sh(t, among other problems.
Putin invaded after Zelensky declared his intent to pursue NATO & EU membership.

But make no mistake: Trump told the world that he'd stop "endless wars" about a million times, OS. What the F do you think that signaled to Putin about Ukraine? It meant: we're not gonna get involved, not our problem. And Trump was CLEARLY not going to send US troops, just like Biden...or Obama, for that matter.Tell that to the soldiers in Ft Collins who had to take all their tanks with them to Poland, or all the US soldiers who served as trainers in Ukraine, while Trump was their CinC. Again. You chose to insert Trump into the discussion, not me.

[a fan]

Time Out. You're the one who brought into the discussion who was the US President. You chose to make it a factor.

No. That was Get it to X. I was responding to the trope that Putin waiting for Trump to leave office before invading.

I'm saying that made no sense. Putin invaded after Zelensky declared his intent to pursue NATO & EU membership.

Bzzt. Wrong. In 2008, the Ukrainian people held a referendum to join Nato. Bush, Obama, and even McCain supported the move.

Putin did nothing.

The point? You can't square why Putin chose to invade when he did. There's no rhyme or reason to it, and you can't blame a US potus for Putin's decisions, no matter how hard Republicans want to play their silly game of "Dems are always weak".

...AFTER the invasion. It has been just enough to not lose or to provoke an escalation. If Biden was committed to a proxy war, he should have started the buildup in military aid when Russia began massing their forces near the border with Ukraine & in Belarus.

? What does this have to do with what we are talking about here...you're implying that Trump won the war in Ukraine. Which is absurd. Credit for helping? Without question.

You have a conveniently short memory. I was critical of the W Bush admin for the final NATO expansion & offering NATO membership to Ukraine & fomenting the Orange Revolution & regime change. That's when we started down this path toward civil war between 2 former Russian states. You may have noticed that Belarus has not gone to war with the rest of the former Russia. ...modern history did not start in 1992.

A short memory? That was over 14 years ago! But yep, you're right, I guess....I have no recollection of your position on Ukraine in 2008. Mea culpa.

You just told us Putin had a GreenLight under Trump. You think sending Javelins & deploying an armored brigade to Poland & the Baltic allied states wasn't at least a Yellow light.

Is this a serious question? Did Putin invade after Trump did those things, or not?

What the heck do you think "America First" meant? Speech after speech about endless wars? Come on. He had the green light under Trump.

And in case you missed it? In no way is this a criticism of Trump. Just stating facts.

Tell that to the soldiers in Ft Collins who had to take all their tanks with them to Poland, or all the US soldiers who served as trainers in Ukraine, while Trump was their CinC.

A. Poland has NOTHING to do with Ukraine.

B. You're implying here that Trump would have sent US Troops to fight Putin in Ukraine...and signaled to the world that that's what he would have done. That's the red light, OS: invade, and you're in a fight with US troops.

I was reacting to get it to x's claim that Putin waited for Trump to exit before invading......which means he thinks that Trump would have hit Putin with US forces, and Putin was scared of that. This is silly, of course.

[old salt]

Time Out. You're the one who brought into the discussion who was the US President. You chose to make it a factor.

No. That was Get it to X. I was responding to the trope that Putin waiting for Trump to leave office before invading.

I'm saying that made no sense. Putin invaded after Zelensky declared his intent to pursue NATO & EU membership.

Bzzt. Wrong. In 2008, the Ukrainian people held a referendum to join Nato. Bush, Obama, and even McCain supported the move.
Bzzt yourself. Ukraine was never offered NATO membership.
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/2 ... membership
In nod to Russia, Ukraine says no longer insisting on NATO membership
Issued on: 08/03/2022 -

Washington (AFP) – President Volodymyr Zelensky said he is no longer pressing for NATO membership for Ukraine, a delicate issue that was one of Russia's stated reasons for invading its pro-Western neighbor.

In another apparent nod aimed at placating Moscow, Zelensky said he is open to "compromise" on the status of two breakaway pro-Russian territories that President Vladimir Putin recognized as independent just before unleashing the invasion on February 24.

"I have cooled down regarding this question a long time ago after we understood that ... NATO is not prepared to accept Ukraine," Zelensky said in an interview aired Monday night on ABC News.

"The alliance is afraid of controversial things, and confrontation with Russia," the president added.

Referring to NATO membership, Zelensky said through an interpreter that he does not want to be president of a "country which is begging something on its knees."

Russia has said it does not want neighboring Ukraine to join NATO, the transatlantic alliance created at the start of the Cold War to protect Europe from the Soviet Union.

In more recent years the alliance has expanded further and further east to take in former Soviet bloc countries, infuriating the Kremlin.

Russia sees NATO enlargement as a threat, as it does the military posture of these new Western allies on its doorstep.

Shortly before he shocked the world by ordering the invasion of Ukraine, Putin recognized as independent two separatist pro-Russian "republics" in eastern Ukraine -- Donetsk and Lugansk -- that have been at war with Kyiv since 2014.

Putin now wants Ukraine, too, to recognize them as sovereign and independent.

When ABC asked him about this Russian demand, Zelensky said he was open to dialogue.

"I'm talking about security guarantees," he said.

He said these two regions "have not been recognized by anyone but Russia, these pseudo republics. But we can discuss and find the compromise on how these territories will live on."

"What is important to me is how the people in those territories are going to live who want to be part of Ukraine, who in Ukraine will say that they want to have them in," Zelensky said.

"So the question is more difficult than simply acknowledging them," the president said.

"This is another ultimatum and we are not prepared for ultimatums. What needs to be done is for President Putin to start talking, start the dialogue instead of living in the informational bubble without oxygen."

Poroshenko & predecessors were able to reassure & placate Putin on this issue.
Zelensky did not try until after the invasion. He blew off the Minsk process.
Putin did nothing.

The point? You can't square why Putin chose to invade when he did. There's no rhyme or reason to it, and you can't blame a US potus for Putin's decisions, no matter how hard Republicans want to play their silly game of "Dems are always weak".
No rhyme or reason TO YOU.

...AFTER the invasion. It has been just enough to not lose or to provoke an escalation. If Biden was committed to a proxy war, he should have started the buildup in military aid when Russia began massing their forces near the border with Ukraine & in Belarus.

? What does this have to do with what we are talking about here...you're implying that Trump won the war in Ukraine. Which is absurd.
No. I've credited Trump for increasing the military aid & training which enabled Ukraine to endure the Russian invasion & survive to fight on, ...with further increased aid.Credit for helping? Without question.

You have a conveniently short memory. I was critical of the W Bush admin for the final NATO expansion & offering NATO membership to Ukraine & fomenting the Orange Revolution & regime change. That's when we started down this path toward civil war between 2 former Russian states. You may have noticed that Belarus has not gone to war with the rest of the former Russia. ...modern history did not start in 1992.

A short memory? That was over 14 years ago! But yep, you're right, I guess....I have no recollection of your position on Ukraine in 2008. Mea culpa.
We had a lengthy discussion on LP in 2014 after Ukraine's capitulation when Russia seized Crimea & much of the Donbas. We had a long discussion on the post-Cold War breakup of the USSR & Warsaw Pact, NATO/EU expansion, & the potential Finland-ization of the CIS states

You just told us Putin had a GreenLight under Trump. You think sending Javelins & deploying an armored brigade to Poland & the Baltic allied states wasn't at least a Yellow light.

Is this a serious question? Did Putin invade after Trump did those things, or not?

What the heck do you think "America First" meant? Speech after speech about endless wars? Come on. He had the green light under Trump.

And in case you missed it? In no way is this a criticism of Trump. Just stating facts.

Tell that to the soldiers in Ft Collins who had to take all their tanks with them to Poland, or all the US soldiers who served as trainers in Ukraine, while Trump was their CinC.

A. Poland has NOTHING to do with Ukraine.Poland borders Ukraine. Where are Ukraine's supply lines. How do you think the massive military & humanitarian aid is getting to Ukraine ? Where do you think the NATO ISR aircraft are flying from that provide the intel & targeting data that make the US provided weapons so effective.

B. You're implying here that Trump would have sent US Troops to fight Putin in Ukraine...and signaled to the world that that's what he would have done. That's the red light, OS: invade, and you're in a fight with US troops.
What ??? That's absurd, as is your entire simplistic G-Y-R light analogy.

I was reacting to get it to x's claim that Putin waited for Trump to exit before invading......which means he thinks that Trump would have hit Putin with US forces, and Putin was scared of that. This is silly, of course.Your attempt to tell pizzasnake what he thinks is what's silly. I would not have replied had you not included it in your reply to me. I'm out. Time wasted.

[Farfromgeneva]

Always fun to declare something w a waste of time and that theyre out while spending an hour in a rebuttal.

Somebody has to have the last word.

[a fan]

You made this claim.......

Putin invaded after Zelensky declared his intent to pursue NATO & EU membership.

Here, you're telling us that it was the mere intent to join NATO is what triggered the invasion.

And I responded...

Bzzt. Wrong. In 2008, the Ukrainian people held a referendum to join Nato. Bush, Obama, and even McCain supported the move.

Pretty simple retort....obviously the INTENT to join NATO wasn't enough to provoke an invasion of Ukraine. Because that happened way the F back in 2008....giving Putin plenty of time to invade before Trump arrived.

Bzzt yourself. Ukraine was never offered NATO membership.

Yeah, I know. That's not what I wrote.

In nod to Russia, Ukraine says no longer insisting on NATO membership
Issued on: 08/03/2022 -

So you're telling me you can't follow the logic?

1. you claim that Zelensky seeking NATO membership is what triggered the invasion
2. I tell you nope, that ain't it----Ukraine did that waaaay back in 2008, and Putin didn't invade
3. you then cite that Zelensky tells the work he's NOT seeking NATO membership way back in August....and Putin didn't shut down the war
4. CLEARLY, seeking NATO membership isn't what triggered the invasion, and it was simply Putin's own made-up nonsense that triggered his decision to invade. Because if was all about NATO? Putin would have been negotiating with Z for weeks now, having gotten what YOU claim he wanted out of Zelensky. You're projecting rationality on Putin, OS. Putin doesn't have rational reasons for invading.......he has, at best, nonsense historically based reasons for wanting to restore the Soviet empire.

As for your ridiculous idea that you get to pick and choose which words leaders say are important, and which words are not.......Trump ran his government on "America First", Old Salt. You don't get to ignore that when it suits your narrative, sorry.

Trump wasn't going to send US Troops to Ukraine.....disavowing the "strategic ambiguity" you've touted in other situations. Green light.

Same green light given by both Obama and Biden.......none of them were going to send US Troops, OS. Putin knew/knows this. Pretty important chunk of information if you're considering an invasion.

[kramerica.inc]

Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania to restrict entry of Russians:

https://www.politico.eu/article/baltics ... ngen-visa/

[old salt]

Here, you're telling us that it was the mere intent to join NATO is what triggered the invasion.
Bzzt. Wrong. In 2008, the Ukrainian people held a referendum to join Nato. Bush, Obama, and even McCain supported the move.
Pretty simple retort....obviously the INTENT to join NATO wasn't enough to provoke an invasion of Ukraine. Because that happened way the F back in 2008....giving Putin plenty of time to invade before Trump arrived.

Trump wasn't going to send US Troops to Ukraine.....disavowing the "strategic ambiguity" you've touted in other situations. Green light.

Same green light given by both Obama and Biden.......none of them were going to send US Troops, OS. Putin knew/knows this. Pretty important chunk of information if you're considering an invasion.

Strawman. One of many. I never claimed any US President would send troops.

You simplistically restrict strategic ambiguity. In this case it applies to the possible US &/or NATO response to Russian escalation in the war in Ukraine. Things like the Russian use of tac nucs, shelling of a nuc pwr plant, breaking the naval blockade for grain shipments, etc.

You skip over portions of relevant history. A lot happened regarding NATO & EU membership after 2008, like the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement, the Revolution of Dignity & the resulting regime change, prompting the Russian incursions into Crimea & the Donbas, then the Minsk process negotiations.

You've thrown so much irrelevant spaghetti against the wall, I forget the initial difference of opinion.
It was probably the usual red vs blue team crybaby stuff. FTR-- feel free to have the last word.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Here, you're telling us that it was the mere intent to join NATO is what triggered the invasion.
Bzzt. Wrong. In 2008, the Ukrainian people held a referendum to join Nato. Bush, Obama, and even McCain supported the move.
Pretty simple retort....obviously the INTENT to join NATO wasn't enough to provoke an invasion of Ukraine. Because that happened way the F back in 2008....giving Putin plenty of time to invade before Trump arrived.

Trump wasn't going to send US Troops to Ukraine.....disavowing the "strategic ambiguity" you've touted in other situations. Green light.

Same green light given by both Obama and Biden.......none of them were going to send US Troops, OS. Putin knew/knows this. Pretty important chunk of information if you're considering an invasion.

Strawman. One of many. I never claimed any US President would send troops.

You simplistically restrict strategic ambiguity. In this case it applies to the possible US &/or NATO response to Russian escalation in the war in Ukraine. Things like the Russian use of tac nucs, shelling of a nuc pwr plant, breaking the naval blockade for grain shipments, etc.

You skip over portions of relevant history. A lot happened regarding NATO & EU membership after 2008, like the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement, the Revolution of Dignity & the resulting regime change, prompting the Russian incursions into Crimea & the Donbas, then the Minsk process negotiations.

You've thrown so much irrelevant spaghetti against the wall, I forget the initial difference of opinion.
It was probably the usual red vs blue team crybaby stuff. FTR-- feel free to have the last word.

[a fan]

Trump wasn't going to send US Troops to Ukraine.....disavowing the "strategic ambiguity" you've touted in other situations. Green light.

Same green light given by both Obama and Biden.......none of them were going to send US Troops, OS. Putin knew/knows this. Pretty important chunk of information if you're considering an invasion.

Strawman. One of many. I never claimed any of them would send troops.

Oh, I know. But what you and FoxNation have claimed, repeatedly----is that Putin waited for Trump to leave before invading. Naturally, you leave out WHY you think that's the case...

You simplistically restrict strategic ambiguity. In this case it applies to the possible US &/or NATO response to Russian escalation in the war in Ukraine.

Moving the goalposts because you don't like that I"m right: there was zero strategic ambiguity that Bush, Obama, Trump, and Biden wouldn't sent troops into Ukraine....and Putin and the world knew this. And.....was Putin and the world right?

Yep. No US Troops in Ukraine. Scoreboard. By all means, try and tell me that's wrong.

You skip over portions of relevant history. A lot happened regarding NATO & EU membership after 2008, like the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement, the Revolution of Dignity & the resulting regime change, prompting the Russian incursions into Crimea & the Donbas.

Irrelevant. You claimed that the trigger for Putin's invasion was the stated desire to join NATO. Nope. This is wrong, sorry. Dance all you want.

They signaled that desire in 2008, and Putin did nothing in the following years. That wasn't the trigger, sorry.

You've thrown so much irrelevant spaghetti against the wall,

Nope. That's you. I have keep the goalposts in place this entire time. YOU are the one who brought up a bunch of irrelevant nonsense to try and distract from the scoreboard: Putin didn't wait for Trump to leave before invading. It was plainly immaterial to his choices and decisions. I have calmly demonstrated why.

[old salt]

Trump wasn't going to send US Troops to Ukraine.....disavowing the "strategic ambiguity" you've touted in other situations. Green light.

Same green light given by both Obama and Biden.......none of them were going to send US Troops, OS. Putin knew/knows this. Pretty important chunk of information if you're considering an invasion.

Strawman. One of many. I never claimed any of them would send troops.

Oh, I know. But what you and FoxNation have claimed, repeatedly----is that Putin waited for Trump to leave before invading. Naturally, you leave out WHY you think that's the case...

You simplistically restrict strategic ambiguity. In this case it applies to the possible US &/or NATO response to Russian escalation in the war in Ukraine.

Moving the goalposts because you don't like that I"m right: there was zero strategic ambiguity that Bush, Obama, Trump, and Biden wouldn't sent troops into Ukraine....and Putin and the world knew this. And.....was Putin and the world right?

Yep. No US Troops in Ukraine. Scoreboard. By all means, try and tell me that's wrong.
You greatly over-simplify strategic ambiguity, e.g....
https://nationalinterest.org/commentary ... guity-9992
https://warontherocks.com/2021/12/strat ... r-ukraine/
It means different things (right now) for Ukraine vs Taiwan
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... cy/670930/
https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pa ... -on-Taiwan

You skip over portions of relevant history. A lot happened regarding NATO & EU membership after 2008, like the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement, the Revolution of Dignity & the resulting regime change, prompting the Russian incursions into Crimea & the Donbas.

Irrelevant. You claimed that the trigger for Putin's invasion was the stated desire to join NATO. Nope. This is wrong, sorry. Dance all you want.

They signaled that desire in 2008, and Putin did nothing in the following years. That wasn't the trigger, sorry.
History didn't stop in 2008. The events of 2014 prompted Putin to seize Crimea because he feared (& still does) the loss of his Black Sea naval base to NATO. The 2014 revolution & regime change greatly alarmed the Russian military & generated much of the domestic support that Putin still enjoys for this war. imo -- Putin will fully mobilize & declare all out war on Ukraine before he abandons Crimea. That is why (imo) the battle for the land bridge territory S of the Dneiper will be decisive to the final outcome.

You've thrown so much irrelevant spaghetti against the wall,

Nope. That's you. I have keep the goalposts in place this entire time. YOU are the one who brought up a bunch of irrelevant nonsense to try and distract from the scoreboard: Putin didn't wait for Trump to leave before invading. It was plainly immaterial to his choices and decisions. I have calmly demonstrated why.
I've pointed out the fact that Putin did not invade while Trump was still in power as evidence that there was no payback by Trump for Russian collusion in the 2016 election. If Trump was Putin's puppet, Putin would have invaded while Trump was still CinC. The fact remains that Putin started the buildup & massing of forces on Ukraine's border shortly after Biden took office. The historians will tell us what went on inside the Kremlin leading up to the invasion.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Trump wasn't going to send US Troops to Ukraine.....disavowing the "strategic ambiguity" you've touted in other situations. Green light.

Same green light given by both Obama and Biden.......none of them were going to send US Troops, OS. Putin knew/knows this. Pretty important chunk of information if you're considering an invasion.

Strawman. One of many. I never claimed any of them would send troops.

Oh, I know. But what you and FoxNation have claimed, repeatedly----is that Putin waited for Trump to leave before invading. Naturally, you leave out WHY you think that's the case...

You simplistically restrict strategic ambiguity. In this case it applies to the possible US &/or NATO response to Russian escalation in the war in Ukraine.

Moving the goalposts because you don't like that I"m right: there was zero strategic ambiguity that Bush, Obama, Trump, and Biden wouldn't sent troops into Ukraine....and Putin and the world knew this. And.....was Putin and the world right?

Yep. No US Troops in Ukraine. Scoreboard. By all means, try and tell me that's wrong.
You greatly over-simplify strategic ambiguity, e.g....
https://nationalinterest.org/commentary ... guity-9992
https://warontherocks.com/2021/12/strat ... r-ukraine/
It means different things (right now) for Ukraine vs Taiwan
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... cy/670930/
https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pa ... -on-Taiwan

You skip over portions of relevant history. A lot happened regarding NATO & EU membership after 2008, like the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement, the Revolution of Dignity & the resulting regime change, prompting the Russian incursions into Crimea & the Donbas.

Irrelevant. You claimed that the trigger for Putin's invasion was the stated desire to join NATO. Nope. This is wrong, sorry. Dance all you want.

They signaled that desire in 2008, and Putin did nothing in the following years. That wasn't the trigger, sorry.
History didn't stop in 2008. The events of 2014 prompted Putin to seize Crimea because he feared (& still does) the loss of his Black Sea naval base to NATO. The 2014 revolution & regime change greatly alarmed the Russian military & generated much of the domestic support that Putin still enjoys for this war. imo -- Putin will fully mobilize & declare all out war on Ukraine before he abandons Crimea. That is why (imo) the battle for the land bridge territory S of the Dneiper will be decisive to the final outcome.

You've thrown so much irrelevant spaghetti against the wall,

Nope. That's you. I have keep the goalposts in place this entire time. YOU are the one who brought up a bunch of irrelevant nonsense to try and distract from the scoreboard: Putin didn't wait for Trump to leave before invading. It was plainly immaterial to his choices and decisions. I have calmly demonstrated why.
I've pointed out the fact that Putin did not invade while Trump was still in power as evidence that there was no payback by Trump for Russian collusion in the 2016 election. If Trump was Putin's puppet, Putin would have invaded while Trump was still CinC. The fact remains that Putin started the buildup & massing of forces on Ukraine's border shortly after Biden took office. The historians will tell us what went on inside the Kremlin leading up to the invasion.

The “historians” can’t even tell us what Trump and Putin spoke about and this is The United States of America.

[old salt]

The “historians” can’t even tell us what Trump and Putin spoke about and this is The United States of America.

They'll know after Trump's trial when it's revealed what was in the MaL moving boxes.
That's when our Kremiln source will be burned.
Hopefully, Carrie Mathison will be back in the USA by then.

[Typical Lax Dad]

The “historians” can’t even tell us what Trump and Putin spoke about and this is The United States of America.

They'll know after Trump's trial when it's revealed what was in the MaL moving boxes.

That’s just Hillary’s emails and Hunter’s laptop downloads

[old salt]

The “historians” can’t even tell us what Trump and Putin spoke about and this is The United States of America.

They'll know after Trump's trial when it's revealed what was in the MaL moving boxes.
That's when our Kremiln source will be burned.
Hopefully, Carrie Mathison will be back in the USA by then.

[a fan]

You greatly over-simplify strategic ambiguity

In this specific case? Nope. It's a simple question with a simple answer: would US troops be sent into direct battle if Putin invaded Ukraine?

The answer for each President in the 21st century was a big, fat, no. Simple question. Simple answer.

IF you want to ask more complicated questions? Yep, you're right....you'll need more complicated answers.

I've pointed out the fact that Putin did not invade while Trump was still in power as evidence that there was no payback by Trump for Russian collusion in the 2016 election. If Trump was Putin's puppet, Putin would have invaded while Trump was still CinC.

That's not true, either.

You asked me what led to "my trolling" of you----it's nonsense like this. Only a Republican who is DESPERATE to defend Trump would give out this half-*ssed logic, Old Salt. The fact that Putin did or did not invade while Trump was in office wouldn't....and doesn't.... prove diddly, in terms of "is Trump Putin's puppet". Heck, you could borrow a fat page from your TeamTinFoilHat and declare that "the reason Putin didn't invade under Trump's rule is that he didn't want to blow Trump's cover, and waste a valuable asset".

How many more examples do you need before you understand that there's plain-as-day no connection between who is in the White House, and what Putin does. Putin has his own reasons for doing what he does. He CLEARLY doesn't care who is running other countries when doing his math. If he did, and he wasn't an idiot....invading while Trump was in office, and unity between world powers was at an all time low (Can you name any world leaders that didn't hate Trump?) was Putin's BEST move.

He didn't do that.....which tells you that in the end, he didn't care who was in the White House, just as he didn't for all the years he was in power. I don't get how you can't see this.

The historians will tell us what went on inside the Kremlin leading up to the invasion.

No they won't. And Putin will never be honest about why he did what when. We'll never know.

[Typical Lax Dad]

You greatly over-simplify strategic ambiguity

In this specific case? Nope. It's a simple question with a simple answer: would US troops be sent into direct battle if Putin invaded Ukraine?

The answer for each President in the 21st century was a big, fat, no. Simple question. Simple answer.

IF you want to ask more complicated questions? Yep, you're right....you'll need more complicated answers.

I've pointed out the fact that Putin did not invade while Trump was still in power as evidence that there was no payback by Trump for Russian collusion in the 2016 election. If Trump was Putin's puppet, Putin would have invaded while Trump was still CinC.

That's not true, either.

You asked me what led to "my trolling" of you----it's nonsense like this. Only a Republican who is DESPERATE to defend Trump would give out this half-*ssed logic, Old Salt. The fact that Putin did or did not invade while Trump was in office wouldn't....and doesn't.... prove diddly, in terms of "is Trump Putin's puppet". Heck, you could borrow a fat page from your TeamTinFoilHat and declare that "the reason Putin didn't invade under Trump's rule is that he didn't want to blow Trump's cover, and waste a valuable asset".

How many more examples do you need before you understand that there's plain-as-day no connection between who is in the White House, and what Putin does. Putin has his own reasons for doing what he does. He CLEARLY doesn't care who is running other countries when doing his math. If he did, and he wasn't an idiot....invading while Trump was in office, and unity between world powers was at an all time low (Can you name any world leaders that didn't hate Trump?) was Putin's BEST move.

He didn't do that.....which tells you that in the end, he didn't care who was in the White House, just as he didn't for all the years he was in power. I don't get how you can't see this.

The historians will tell us what went on inside the Kremlin leading up to the invasion.

No they won't. And Putin will never be honest about why he did what when. We'll never know.

Someone will speculate the reasons and write it in a book and Old Sage will claim it as fact because he read it in a book.

[old salt]

....but I won't believe it until I see it in a youtube comedy clip.

[cradleandshoot]

....but I won't believe it until I see it in a youtube comedy clip.

Right on!!!!! That is the only functional tool that TLD has for expressing himself.