Middies Wins Championships

[jrn19]

You can’t really have one glaring weakness and win a championship, at least by championship weekend. UVA’s defense in ‘21 wasn’t great for the whole season but it played great in the tournament before the championship. Every unit has to be about Top 10-15 or so in the country.

However there are some areas that tend to overlap as ones all championship teams have. For awhile there every championship team seemed to have a dominant X attackmen. Crotty, Stanwick, Wolf, Cannizzaro, Rambo, Reeves, Kraus/Moore, Shellenberger. Loyola was an outlier, I suppose you could say UNC was but Pontrello was p great. Offense was played from behind the cage and up. I wonder if that begins to change more as we see more and more teams embrace just putting their 6 best guys out there regardless of position or where they attack from on the field.

The last few years since the shot clock I do think you have begun to notice a trend of the best teams being really good in the middle of the field. Virginia in 19 and 21 was great with Conrad and Conners in 19 and then Conners in 21. Maryland was similarly great this year with that rope unit. You gotta be able to have two way athletes with the shot clock. I don’t know if there’s been a long enough trend yet to say midfield specifically wins championships but it seems to be going that way

[DMac]

probably just best fogo. but if i had a v good fogo, i might choose goalie. and vice versa.

but as asked... #1 draft pick, starting a team... i'd take fogo. and it's not close.

Am curious, wgdsr, were you thinking of me when you wrote that?

Had you chosen TD first in building the Danes, or the Bulldogs, or the Pioneers,
nary a championship you would have.

[PizzaSnake]

pizza going back 30-50 years.

I'm just pleased that not one person is claiming that Coaching wins D1 Lax Championships. Sounds like the crew has finally figured it out!

Related tot he conversation......I did a poll in the early days of Laxpower that would have been fun to revisit now that it's 20 years later.

...If you had to pick one, which would you pick:

-The best Goalie in D1
-The best Attackman in D1
-The best fogo in D1

in history? or now?

Now. 2023 season. Picking for your team, assuming you have no other players (yet).

In other words, what would you build your team around?

entenmann (like the improvement of mcananey)
shellenberger
wiermann

@ mid - bundy and handley are terrific, if you made me choose bundy
@ close d - adler over makar just for his ability to take over, makar's great 1 v 1
@ ssdm - rezanka
@ lsm haven't seen enough of the top guys

You're naming the top players in D1, and that's not what I'm asking you.

I'm doing a lousy job of communicating today, sorry. I'm thinking of the current thread "middies win championships", where the poster is generalizing about the importance of having the best middies in the game in order to win championships. So I'm recalling a poll I asked 20 years ago where we were asking fans, essentially: which position is THE key position to have the best D1 player?

So without discussing specific players/names, and just speaking in generalized terms, which would you rather have:

-The best Goalie in D1
-The best Attackman in D1
-The best fogo in D1

Is that more clear?

Goalie

[wgdsr]

probably just best fogo. but if i had a v good fogo, i might choose goalie. and vice versa.

but as asked... #1 draft pick, starting a team... i'd take fogo. and it's not close.

Am curious, wgdsr, were you thinking of me when you wrote that?

Had you chosen TD first in building the Danes, or the Bulldogs, or the Pioneers,
nary a championship you would have.

there are other guys on team.
a possession is worth ~ 0.33 goals. if i get 10 more than you, that's 3.3 goals.

if instead you get 10 more than me, i'm now down 6.6 goals from being 10 up. even at half that number (5... or even less), no one else is worth that # vs an alternative.

#moneyball

[10stone5]

You can’t really have one glaring weakness and win a championship, at least by championship weekend. UVA’s defense in ‘21 wasn’t great for the whole season but it played great in the tournament before the championship.

They really did,
Rode and that defense may have been that slight difference
that got them the title.
I think I enjoyed watching that defense at least as much as
I enjoyed watching Moore, Shellenberger, Aitken and Bertrand.

[DMac]

Just had a four week sample size of this in the UA Women's Lacrosse League where new teams are chosen each week by team captains. Choosing from the best in the country (minus a few who have now retired) Ally Mastroianni, an absolute workhorse who is a force at both ends of the field and a darn good draw control girl too (a complete player) was chosen number one two out of the four weeks. Charolette North, strictly an offensive player and big threat to score who can also take draws (not dominating there though), was chosen number one two weeks too. The teams that chose Mastroianni first faired better than the teams that chose North first but there's a whole lot more going on there than just those two. Ultimately it was the GK, Moreno, who was crowned the champion though. A good GK is definitely high on the list when choosing a team.

[MDlaxfan76]

Just had a four week sample size of this in the UA Women's Lacrosse League where new teams are chosen each week by team captains. Choosing from the best in the country (minus a few who have now retired) Ally Mastroianni, an absolute workhorse who is a force at both ends of the field and a darn good draw control girl too (a complete player) was chosen number one two out of the four weeks. Charolette North, strictly an offensive player and big threat to score who can also take draws (not dominating there though), was chosen number one two weeks too. The teams that chose Mastroianni first faired better than the teams that chose North first but there's a whole lot more going on there than just those two. Ultimately it was the GK, Moreno, who was crowned the champion though. A good GK is definitely high on the list when choosing a team.

+1

[HooDat]

...If you had to pick one, which would you pick:

-The best Goalie in D1
-The best Attackman in D1
-The best fogo in D1

No hesitation - I build my team around a goalie. Period full stop.

[Typical Lax Dad]

...If you had to pick one, which would you pick:

-The best Goalie in D1
-The best Attackman in D1
-The best fogo in D1

No hesitation - I build my team around a goalie. Period full stop.

Goalie.

[jrn19]

I still think I’d go with attackmen, at the end of the day the name of the game on offense is always can you beat your man and draw a slide. And in a shot clock world where goals are up, having the guy who can create the most goals is a big luxury

But…goalie is so, so much more important than it used to be. There used to be years where the team who won the championship had pretty meh goalie play (I think of a couple of those Duke title teams.) now you look at the teams in the Final Four every year and their goalies have just played amazing in those first two rounds. Goalie has become a must strength to win

[allthingsODAC]

Face-off wins championships in todays game, so pivotal and the traditional FOGO is becoming more and more athletic-- look how UVA "struggled" in games without LaSalle even though they have a championship caliber team

[HooDat]

Face-off wins championships in todays game, so pivotal and the traditional FOGO is becoming more and more athletic-- look how UVA "struggled" in games without LaSalle even though they have a championship caliber team

shhh, they will outlaw face offs again.

[1766]

Middies, fogo, goalie play.

If you are really strong in those areas, you can compete with and likely beat anyone.

[DMac]

Face-off wins championships in todays game, so pivotal and the traditional FOGO is becoming more and more athletic-- look how UVA "struggled" in games without LaSalle even though they have a championship caliber team

How many championships did Baptise and Ierlan have between them?
It's really pretty much complete teams that win championships, all phases
of the game matter.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Face-off wins championships in todays game, so pivotal and the traditional FOGO is becoming more and more athletic-- look how UVA "struggled" in games without LaSalle even though they have a championship caliber team

How many championships did Baptise and Ierlan have between them?
It's really pretty much complete teams that win championships, all phases
of the game matter.

+1.

[Chousnake]

Just had a four week sample size of this in the UA Women's Lacrosse League where new teams are chosen each week by team captains. Choosing from the best in the country (minus a few who have now retired) Ally Mastroianni, an absolute workhorse who is a force at both ends of the field and a darn good draw control girl too (a complete player) was chosen number one two out of the four weeks. Charolette North, strictly an offensive player and big threat to score who can also take draws (not dominating there though), was chosen number one two weeks too. The teams that chose Mastroianni first faired better than the teams that chose North first but there's a whole lot more going on there than just those two. Ultimately it was the GK, Moreno, who was crowned the champion though. A good GK is definitely high on the list when choosing a team.

I get, but you can''t compare men's lax to women's lax. They are two completely different sports.

[rolldodge]

Obviously, you need a team that is very good from top to bottom to win a championship.

However, I think the biggest predictor of championship caliber is having a top attack unit that can consistently break down any defense.

Plenty of teams have won with average/just above average goalies and fOGOs. But I think you’d be pressed to find a champion with just an average or above average attack.

[kramerica.inc]

I will take a well-balanced team over anything. But for the sake of discussion-

A pretty good coach once told me that lacrosse is all about runs.
One goal doesn't break a team. 2 or 3 in a row does.
So always try to stop the bleeding with a ground ball or save and then a good offensive possession.
Give up less runs and smaller runs than the opponent and your team wins.

So gimme the best goalie in the nation and a pretty good fogo. A top goalie can save everything he should and a few he shouldn't stop. It gets an opponent thinking to themselves and doubting every shot. Possession also helps at limiting opponents. And it creates those runs. That goes a long way at accomplishing the mission.

[kramerica.inc]

At the end of the day, lacrosse is won on the field.

The great teams have great teams.

But if you have to break it down, great FO’s keep great middies off the field (and then the rules get changed), great goalies don’t care who is shooting, great attackers make middies jobs easier, great defenses slow down (don’t stop) great offenses.

+100

Great defenders also make good goalies look VERY good. The Loyola defense for the past few years ago did such a good job staying on their men's hands that it was remarkable.
Seemed like they mostly gave up shots where their goalies got a full, contested great look at the stick and could anticipate the shot. It was like the shooters were just playing catch with the goalie. Fun to watch.

[DMac]

Just had a four week sample size of this in the UA Women's Lacrosse League where new teams are chosen each week by team captains. Choosing from the best in the country (minus a few who have now retired) Ally Mastroianni, an absolute workhorse who is a force at both ends of the field and a darn good draw control girl too (a complete player) was chosen number one two out of the four weeks. Charolette North, strictly an offensive player and big threat to score who can also take draws (not dominating there though), was chosen number one two weeks too. The teams that chose Mastroianni first faired better than the teams that chose North first but there's a whole lot more going on there than just those two. Ultimately it was the GK, Moreno, who was crowned the champion though. A good GK is definitely high on the list when choosing a team.

I get, but you can''t compare men's lax to women's lax. They are two completely different sports.

UA women's lacrosse is very similar to mlax (some might see it as the most shining example of wlax's inexorable march to mlax ). 10 v 10, 6 v 6 at each end, 3 v 3 at the draw, no shooting space, no 3 seconds. Draws, possessions, GKs, TOs, CTOs, GBs, etc, equally as important in that game.