PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:28 pm
OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:12 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:29 pm
OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 2:34 pm
In the gospel of John, 8th chapter, 12th verse, Jesus makes an astounding declaration about himself: “I am the light of the world.” Who in their right mind would say that? How could a mere man make that claim? It makes me wonder if anyone else down through the annals of history has ever said that or anything similar.
Really?
There have been quite a few cult leaders as well as political leaders who've made similar grandiose statements...heck, whole lot of kings claimed divinity.
Which isn't to say that Jesus is simply such as they, but for that matter, we don't really know that he used those words or that they were translated accurately, we don't really even know for sure who wrote the Gospel of John.
I'm not arguing the veracity of the statement, I'm just saying that I don't see it as persuasive in and of itself. Certainly not unique.
I'll amend my comment/question and make it more specific: Has anyone ever said,
"I am the light of the world" ?
Other mortals have claimed divinity but their lives proved anything but.
Jesus also claimed that his shed blood would forgive sins:
"And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, 'Drink from it, all of you; for this is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.'" (Matt 26.27, 28)
Has anyone in history ever claimed that their death and shed blood would forgive sin?
Also--when you say "we" in reference to the Gospel of John and what "we" don't know--who are you referring to? Who are the "we"?
Jeebus was a Jew. Are you familiar with Yom Kippur? The sacrifice of Jesus, a god, would yield an atonement that was good for ever, obviating the need for the Temple and the Jewish priesthood. Politics, plain and simple.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur
Sound point.
ONW is obviously making an argument based on personal faith, which makes it quite personal and subjective.
And yes, ONW, other figures have claimed various levels of divinity throughout history. And have claimed all sorts of grandiose capacities.
While I, as a follower, consider the Jesus
story to be especially compelling, I dunno that we necessarily know with sufficient certainty that his "life" was actually more holy than other claimants of divinity...I choose to believe so, but hey, that's my tradition and I find that the story resonates powerfully for me. On the other hand, it's also quite possible that Jesus, his life and death, his 'words', were not actually as later composed by those who wrote the story down. Other gospels purporting to tell the same story of Jesus had different takes, some of which contradicted those that ended up being adopted much later as holy scripture by men with decidedly political purposes in doing so.
By "we", I mean historians and those who are looking at the facts, best they can, not from a position of faith, but rather based on evidence. And that "we" is pretty darn sure, based on evidence, that the Gospel of John is a second hand account at best. Not eyewitness, though the story as told to those who ultimately wrote it down, amended it, etc, may well have been from an original eyewitness. But 4 decades of 'telephone tag' and the writing is bound to include the perspective of the writers, not simply 100% accuracy.
That said, I totally respect your beliefs, and, if you are true to them, all the better.