Progressive Ideology

[a fan]

Nope.

The bar for our leaders is now President Trump. Start there.

Guess what? Now nothing any of our leaders says is stupid or cringeworthy anymore. Voters decided to wave it all through.

Isn't this exciting!!?!?

[6ftstick]

Nope.

The bar for our leaders is now President Trump. Start there.

Guess what? Now nothing any of our leaders says is stupid or cringeworthy anymore. Voters decided to wave it all through.

Isn't this exciting!!?!?

So much better to have a glib community organizer who can deliver speeches off the teleprompter eloquently. And have the middle east on fire. The Koreans launching rockets weekly at the Japanese and hawaians. Testing nuclear weapons regularly.

A stagnant economy GDP at 1%—the new norm he told us eloquently.

Who cares Trump's brought back manufacturing jobs that were scoffed at by the guy with sharply creased trousers."Whats he going to do, Obama asked wave a magic wand?" Unemployment in PITTSBURGH is the lowest its been since the 1970's.

13 million fewer Americans on food stamps than with that eloquent Obama. Beheadings and crucifixions OVER in the middle east. The stock market over 26K. There are a million more jobs available than Americans who can fill them.

GDP over 3% annually.

It's so cringeworthy. It has to stop.

Who needs substance when you can have style.

[cradleandshoot]

Nope.

The bar for our leaders is now President Trump. Start there.

Guess what? Now nothing any of our leaders says is stupid or cringeworthy anymore. Voters decided to wave it all through.

Isn't this exciting!!?!?

The bar for our leaders is now President Trump

But wait... Trump does not drink...

[jhu72]

Damn liberal scientists changing history again. Boys will be girls will be boys will be dogs will be cats. Heads will explode.

The father of American Cavalry was a woman, or the mother of American Cavalry was a man?

[old salt]

Back to the 737 Max story - it is now clear that the MCAS system failed (WaPo article link includes actual sensor data showing one of the sensors blowing up) and apparently there is yet another software issue that is blowing up the timeline to get the software fixes done/approved:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/af ... 6f1489fbea

And the preliminary report on the accident says the pilots tried (correctly) to deactivate the MCAS system to no avail...

The pilots initially tried correctly to deactivate the MCAS system, but they were by then going too fast to retrim the aircraft manually & they reactivated the MCAS, exacerbating the problem. They may have initially recognized the MCAS malfunction but they did not take the appropriate corrective action. John Cox again provides the most cogent analysis I've read :

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... boeing-max

The low time first officer made critical errors. Distracted by the stick shaker, he failed to reduce takeoff power on climb out, as directed by the captain. They maintained 94% power until impact. This produced speeds above the flight envelope for that altitude, making it impossible to manually trim with the trim control wheel, at that speed. This prompted the first officer to conclude that manual trim was inop, which prompted the capt to keep re-engaging the MCAS. Neither pilot tried the nose trim switches on their control yoke.

Boeing is on the hook for inadequate systems safety engineering & fault tree analysis, allowing a single point of failure by programming the MCAS to activate based on just 1 AOA indicator, when they could have programmed it to compare the 2 & consider/compare both airspeed sensors, as well.

Boeing should also have done better pilot training on the MCAS system & included this malfunction immediately after takeoff in simulator training.

Note that because they did not want to have to retrain pilots - they did not really divulge the system, and extra training for pilots was tablet based - it was supposed to be the "same" plane. This one is on Boeing/FAA.

Like most accidents, there are multiple cause factors. In both accidents, the pilots found themselves in an emergency situation which they did not recognize & completely understand. They were inadequately trained/experienced to function as a 2 man crew to recover, like the Lion Air crew did the day before their accident, thanks to the 3rd pilot in the cockpit who interceded.

Though tragic, it's good that both accidents seem to have the same cause that is not that difficult to correct.

This reflects poorly on Boeing, the FAA & the 2 air carriers involved.

Note that in the article you referenced - some pilots could see themselves doing all the (wrong) kinds of things regarding the attempts to regain control. But not throttling back the power after takeoff is certainly a critical error by the first officer.

It reflects well on AA, SWA, UA, Air Canada & all the other air carriers who've safely operated the 737 MAX whose crews have correctly responded to MCAS malfunctions. Consider the narrative & synopsis in these incident reports from US air carrier pilots.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethi ... SKCN1RG2PP

WHAT ARE THE PROPER PROCEDURES?
If MCAS misfires, forcing the nose down in a maneuver similar to a condition that pilots know as runaway trim, pilots are supposed to hit two cut-out switches at the plane’s center console to turn off power to the electric trim system.

Under normal circumstances, trim is used to keep an aircraft flying level, but the MCAS makes automated nose-down movements.

Data from the Ethiopian Airlines flight indicates the aircraft was flying nose-heavy and not in a “neutral” attitude when pilots hit the stabilizer cutout switches to disable the MCAS system, the preliminary report showed.

That would make the situation harder to manage, possibly accounting for their decision to turn the system back on.

Boeing’s checklist for pilots tells them to “control airplane pitch attitude manually with control column and main electric trim as needed” before hitting cut-out switches and turning to a rarely used manual wheel to keep the plane’s nose in the proper position. It does not describe a specific trim setting for the pilots to achieve.

WOULD THE PROCEDURES WORK?
Experts are questioning whether the procedures outlined after the Lion Air crash were comprehensive enough to ensure pilots could recover from a real-life cockpit emergency with several distractions at a low altitude shortly after take-off rather than in a pre-planned simulator ride.

A 737 MAX pilot said the resistance on the control yoke would be about four times normal and it could take a few dozen turns of the manual wheel to return the nose to the proper position, depending on the alignment when the switches were cut.

The preliminary report indicates the pilots tried to move their wheels together but were unable to raise the nose much at all by doing so.

“It appears the flight crew reactivated electric trim,” former Boeing engineer Peter Lemme said. “But they only made a very small nose up adjustment - I would have expected them to immediately and without stopping move the stabilizer back into trim. The last MCAS command comes 5 seconds after their last manual trim command.”

WHY COULDN’T THEY RAISE THE NOSE MANUALLY?
The proper response to MCAS emergencies, Leeham Co analyst Bjorn Fehrm said, is to correct the dangerous nose-down “trim” electronic thumb switches, then turn off MCAS and trim manually with the wheel.

But if the aircraft is going too fast, those electronic switches may not be effective, European regulators said in a 2016 memo. And failing to fully fix the trim before MCAS is deactivated can make it physically impossible for pilots to control the plane, Fehrm said.

Under normal circumstances, trim is used to keep an aircraft flying level.

At speeds up to 250 knots (288 mph) pilots can stabilize trim with the manual wheel. But when the speed rises towards 300 knots and higher, the wheel becomes impossible to turn as air rushing over control surfaces makes them harder to move, Fehrm said.

At the time when both pilots were unable to move the wheel, they were traveling at over 340 knots, the maximum operating speed of the airplane and clacker alarms were sounding. By the end of the fatal flight they had reached 500 knots.

WHY WAS THE ETHIOPIAN JET GOING SO FAST?
The plane’s engines were at 94 percent thrust on take-off and remained there for the rest of the flight.

That is consistent with the pilots leaving the thrust setting in take-off mode throughout, aviation experts said.

The 737’s air data computer also uses angle-of-attack (AOA) information to adjust airspeed readings. If it mistakenly thinks the angle of attack is high, it can trigger pilot warnings that airspeed and altitude data are unreliable on one of the pilot’s controls, according to former Boeing engineer Peter Lemme.

That leads to an unreliable airspeed checklist which involves turning off the autothrottle as well as setting engine thrust to 75 percent. The runaway stabilizer checklist to shut off MCAS also says to turn off autothrottle.

However, according to the flight data recorder, the pilots never reduced the thrust from 94 percent.

“The report does not address information about unreliable airspeed procedures which should be considered because they had erratic airspeed,” said Greg Feith, a former senior air safety investigator with the National Transportation Safety Board.

The pilots failed to use the trim thumb switches on the control yoke & never completely disengaged the autopilot (autothrottles & MCAS), so they could hand fly the aircraft. They never took full manual control of the aircraft. By not reducing power, they accelerated > 250 kts & could no longer manually trim the horizontal stabilizer.

Inadequate situational awareness & failure to take manual control of the aircraft. Had they followed the basic runaway nose down trim procedures taught in any aircraft, they would have completely disengaged all facets of the autopilot (including autithrottle) & manually controlled the aircraft before exceeding max airspeed & losing stabilizer manual trim authority.

Ethopian Airlines is trying to shift all the responsibility onto Boeing. Their pilots did not completely follow the emergency procedures, even if the procedures & systems were poorly explained in Boeing's AND the airline's differences training.

Over-reliance on the autopilot. Note the incident report from the US Captain who said he does not engage the autopilot until passing 10,000 ft in a stabilized climb. That keeps the pilot "in the loop" to immediately cope with any autopilot induced anomalies upon engagement, with fewer cockpit tasks & more altitude available for recovery.

[youthathletics]

AOC has developed a new accent....embarrassing. https://twitter.com/realsaavedra/status ... 55200?s=21

Nope.

The bar for our leaders is now President Trump. Start there.

Guess what? Now nothing any of our leaders says is stupid or cringeworthy anymore. Voters decided to wave it all through.

Isn't this exciting!!?!?

So much better to have a glib community organizer who can deliver speeches off the teleprompter eloquently. And have the middle east on fire. The Koreans launching rockets weekly at the Japanese and hawaians. Testing nuclear weapons regularly.

A stagnant economy GDP at 1%—the new norm he told us eloquently.

Who cares Trump's brought back manufacturing jobs that were scoffed at by the guy with sharply creased trousers."Whats he going to do, Obama asked wave a magic wand?" Unemployment in PITTSBURGH is the lowest its been since the 1970's.

13 million fewer Americans on food stamps than with that eloquent Obama. Beheadings and crucifixions OVER in the middle east. The stock market over 26K. There are a million more jobs available than Americans who can fill them.

GDP over 3% annually.

It's so cringeworthy. It has to stop.

Who needs substance when you can have style.

Afan, your reply implies that all politicians can now speak like Trump...you mean blunt and to the point? Or has Trump also added some ebonics to his speech? My parents, and I am sure your parents, told you the same things ..."If Johnny Jumps off a bridge are going to follow"...."Boy, use your head for more than a damned hat rack". AOC is pandering to the black community, that is just wrong.....much like HRC with her Hot Sauce comment. Would be interesting to hear how the black community received this?

I suppose your point was more about anything now goes...... I agree with that.

[MDlaxfan76]

AOC has developed a new accent....embarrassing. https://twitter.com/realsaavedra/status ... 55200?s=21

Nope.

The bar for our leaders is now President Trump. Start there.

Guess what? Now nothing any of our leaders says is stupid or cringeworthy anymore. Voters decided to wave it all through.

Isn't this exciting!!?!?

So much better to have a glib community organizer who can deliver speeches off the teleprompter eloquently. And have the middle east on fire. The Koreans launching rockets weekly at the Japanese and hawaians. Testing nuclear weapons regularly.

A stagnant economy GDP at 1%—the new norm he told us eloquently.

Who cares Trump's brought back manufacturing jobs that were scoffed at by the guy with sharply creased trousers."Whats he going to do, Obama asked wave a magic wand?" Unemployment in PITTSBURGH is the lowest its been since the 1970's.

13 million fewer Americans on food stamps than with that eloquent Obama. Beheadings and crucifixions OVER in the middle east. The stock market over 26K. There are a million more jobs available than Americans who can fill them.

GDP over 3% annually.

It's so cringeworthy. It has to stop.

Who needs substance when you can have style.

Afan, your reply implies that all politicians can now speak like Trump...you mean blunt and to the point? Or has Trump also added some ebonics to his speech? My parents, and I am sure your parents, told you the same things ..."If Johnny Jumps off a bridge are going to follow"...."Boy, use your head for more than a damned hat rack". AOC is pandering to the black community, that is just wrong.....much like HRC with her Hot Sauce comment. Would be interesting to hear how the black community received this?

I suppose your point was more about anything now goes...... I agree with that.

Seems to me that there's some wisdom in 'glass houses'.

I read a fan as simply saying start with criticizing at home (POTUS Trump) before getting incensed about some freshmen Representative.

No, Trump is not simply 'blunt and to the point'.
And you know that.

I find it amazing that people aren't embarrassed by the lies and stupidity in a President.
But then again, look at reality TV. A barrage of venality and stupidity.
I find it disgusting. But a whole lot of people apparently don't.

[MDlaxfan76]

But thanks for the link to that Twitter feed...what a piece of work he is!

A couple of tweets below is a claim that ACO said she has Jewish ancestry right before Hanukkah.

ok. May well be true.

But then the comment: I knew it! I sensed it!

What's that supposed to mean???

I also listened to ACO's message. Yeah, a little 'southern' attempt at first (then mostly not), but her message (which the right wing commenters want to also make seem racist) was spot on. And the crowd responded as such.

Her message started with "I'm proud to have been a bar tender"...and went on to a series of jobs that folks do to pay their bills. There's dignity in all work.

A lot of politicians shy away from referencing jobs that aren't middle class. Much easier to reference a school teacher, a plumber, an auto worker.

ACO is speaking to a lower working class message, with an authenticity she comes by through personal experience. Recent personal experience!

But hey, she has Jewish blood.

[foreverlax]

Nope.

The bar for our leaders is now President Trump. Start there.

Guess what? Now nothing any of our leaders says is stupid or cringeworthy anymore. Voters decided to wave it all through.

Isn't this exciting!!?!?

So much better to have a glib community organizer who can deliver speeches off the teleprompter eloquently. And have the middle east on fire. The Koreans launching rockets weekly at the Japanese and hawaians. Testing nuclear weapons regularly.

A stagnant economy GDP at 1%—the new norm he told us eloquently.

Who cares Trump's brought back manufacturing jobs that were scoffed at by the guy with sharply creased trousers."Whats he going to do, Obama asked wave a magic wand?" Unemployment in PITTSBURGH is the lowest its been since the 1970's.

13 million fewer Americans on food stamps than with that eloquent Obama. Beheadings and crucifixions OVER in the middle east. The stock market over 26K. There are a million more jobs available than Americans who can fill them.

GDP over 3% annually.Nope. Just like BHO, no 3%.

It's so cringeworthy. It has to stop.

Who needs substance when you can have style.

[Typical Lax Dad]

But thanks for the link to that Twitter feed...what a piece of work he is!

A couple of tweets below is a claim that ACO said she has Jewish ancestry right before Hanukkah.

ok. May well be true.

But then the comment: I knew it! I sensed it!

What's that supposed to mean???

I also listened to ACO's message. Yeah, a little 'southern' attempt at first (then mostly not), but her message (which the right wing commenters want to also make seem racist) was spot on. And the crowd responded as such.

Her message started with "I'm proud to have been a bar tender"...and went on to a series of jobs that folks do to pay their bills. There's dignity in all work.

A lot of politicians shy away from referencing jobs that aren't middle class. Much easier to reference a school teacher, a plumber, an auto worker.

ACO is speaking to a lower working class message, with an authenticity she comes by through personal experience. Recent personal experience!

But hey, she has Jewish blood.

Was this Alex’s first interaction with Black people? Is she from Scarsdale or is it Bronxville and she is mimicking “Black” people? How many time was Trump in Wheeling WV before he campaigned? Trump grew up in College Point or Bayside....deuces to Cardoza

[MDlaxfan76]

But thanks for the link to that Twitter feed...what a piece of work he is!

A couple of tweets below is a claim that ACO said she has Jewish ancestry right before Hanukkah.

ok. May well be true.

But then the comment: I knew it! I sensed it!

What's that supposed to mean???

I also listened to ACO's message. Yeah, a little 'southern' attempt at first (then mostly not), but her message (which the right wing commenters want to also make seem racist) was spot on. And the crowd responded as such.

Her message started with "I'm proud to have been a bar tender"...and went on to a series of jobs that folks do to pay their bills. There's dignity in all work.

A lot of politicians shy away from referencing jobs that aren't middle class. Much easier to reference a school teacher, a plumber, an auto worker.

ACO is speaking to a lower working class message, with an authenticity she comes by through personal experience. Recent personal experience!

But hey, she has Jewish blood.

Was this Alex’s first interaction with Black people? Is she from Scarsdale or is it Bronxville and she is mimicking “Black” people? How many time was Trump in Wheeling WV before he campaigned? Trump grew up in College Point or Bayside....deuces to Cardoza

Right...and that's her response: "I'm from the Bronx and I talk like it". "Especially when I'm home and get fired up"
https://www.aol.com/article/news/2019/0 ... /23707479/

[Typical Lax Dad]

But thanks for the link to that Twitter feed...what a piece of work he is!

A couple of tweets below is a claim that ACO said she has Jewish ancestry right before Hanukkah.

ok. May well be true.

But then the comment: I knew it! I sensed it!

What's that supposed to mean???

I also listened to ACO's message. Yeah, a little 'southern' attempt at first (then mostly not), but her message (which the right wing commenters want to also make seem racist) was spot on. And the crowd responded as such.

Her message started with "I'm proud to have been a bar tender"...and went on to a series of jobs that folks do to pay their bills. There's dignity in all work.

A lot of politicians shy away from referencing jobs that aren't middle class. Much easier to reference a school teacher, a plumber, an auto worker.

ACO is speaking to a lower working class message, with an authenticity she comes by through personal experience. Recent personal experience!

But hey, she has Jewish blood.

Was this Alex’s first interaction with Black people? Is she from Scarsdale or is it Bronxville and she is mimicking “Black” people? How many time was Trump in Wheeling WV before he campaigned? Trump grew up in College Point or Bayside....deuces to Cardoza

Right...and that's her response: "I'm from the Bronx and I talk like it". "Especially when I'm home and get fired up"
https://www.aol.com/article/news/2019/0 ... /23707479/

Not surprising at all. This girl is pandering but Trump of all people was speaking for the working class man.... I had a girlfriend from the Bronx... when she would come back to school from breaks it would always take a few days for her to lose her accent / dialect. Actually, Chappelle did a sketch about it...

[a fan]

I suppose your point was more about anything now goes...... I agree with that.

This. Sorry, complaints about what and how our leaders speak went bye bye with not just the arrival of Trump, but with the ridiculously high approval ratings Trump gets with Republican Voters.

Republican Voters set the bar. And now here we are.

[cradleandshoot]

I suppose your point was more about anything now goes...... I agree with that.

This. Sorry, complaints about what and how our leaders speak went bye bye with not just the arrival of Trump, but with the ridiculously high approval ratings Trump gets with Republican Voters.

Republican Voters set the bar. And now here we are.

Both Republicans and Democrats have been ignoring the needs of mainstream America for decades now. You scratch your ass wondering how someone like Trump gets elected. He got elected because enough people are fed up with the bull cookies both parties have been dishing out for so very long. It is astounding to me that a buttwipe like DJT was able to present himself as the best option available. That speaks volumes to the incompetence of Rs and Ds alike. Even more astounding... the Democrat party has not yet figured out how they effed up the election. Instead of telling Americans what their plans are all they can tell America is what a piece of excrement Trump is. Like most people in America don't already know that? So the options for mainstream America will be... more of DJT or a 180 turn to a radical, and I mean radical far left agenda. Looks like a perfect opportunity for the right third party candidate IMO.

[MDlaxfan76]

I suppose your point was more about anything now goes...... I agree with that.

This. Sorry, complaints about what and how our leaders speak went bye bye with not just the arrival of Trump, but with the ridiculously high approval ratings Trump gets with Republican Voters.

Republican Voters set the bar. And now here we are.

Both Republicans and Democrats have been ignoring the needs of mainstream America for decades now. You scratch your ass wondering how someone like Trump gets elected. He got elected because enough people are fed up with the bull cookies both parties have been dishing out for so very long. It is astounding to me that a buttwipe like DJT was able to present himself as the best option available. That speaks volumes to the incompetence of Rs and Ds alike. Even more astounding... the Democrat party has not yet figured out how they effed up the election. Instead of telling Americans what their plans are all they can tell America is what a piece of excrement Trump is. Like most people in America don't already know that? So the options for mainstream America will be... more of DJT or a 180 turn to a radical, and I mean radical far left agenda. Looks like a perfect opportunity for the right third party candidate IMO.

Which would ensure Trump's reelection. His 37% isn't going anywhere, no matter what. You could peel off 7-8% from the next cohort who just didn't like HRC, and arguably another 20% from the Dems, but you still fall way short of Trump's 37%.

Will the Dems really put up the furthest left of the lefties? There's no evidence as yet to suggest that's the most likely scenario.

Right now, the most old school Dem, who isn't even in the race, leads the pack. Sure, the next guy up is another very old white guy, though the furthest left. But there's a whole bunch of candidates who will be making their own pitch and a couple will build some momentum.

My hunch is that the person who will ultimately emerge from the pack will be positive in tone, not angry in tone, and will be more moderate than the far, far left wing. Sure, progressive, sufficiently so for the base, but less easily pigeonholed as a, shudder, "socialist". And if the bona fides of the Presidential candidate aren't sufficiently midwestern 'nice', he or she will pick up as VP candidate someone who addresses that part of the party, someone who wins midwestern rural and industrial blue collar votes. Alternatively, if a midwestern style candidate emerges at the top of the ticket, there will be a look for someone bringing more diversity, whether thats gender or race or coastal or whatever. It would certainly be a surprise to see 2 men given the plethora of credible women. I'd be less surprised by 2 women, depending on who they are. I'm not as sure whether we'll see a candidate of color on the ticket than at least one woman.

But it will surely be interesting.

[cradleandshoot]

I suppose your point was more about anything now goes...... I agree with that.

This. Sorry, complaints about what and how our leaders speak went bye bye with not just the arrival of Trump, but with the ridiculously high approval ratings Trump gets with Republican Voters.

Republican Voters set the bar. And now here we are.

Both Republicans and Democrats have been ignoring the needs of mainstream America for decades now. You scratch your ass wondering how someone like Trump gets elected. He got elected because enough people are fed up with the bull cookies both parties have been dishing out for so very long. It is astounding to me that a buttwipe like DJT was able to present himself as the best option available. That speaks volumes to the incompetence of Rs and Ds alike. Even more astounding... the Democrat party has not yet figured out how they effed up the election. Instead of telling Americans what their plans are all they can tell America is what a piece of excrement Trump is. Like most people in America don't already know that? So the options for mainstream America will be... more of DJT or a 180 turn to a radical, and I mean radical far left agenda. Looks like a perfect opportunity for the right third party candidate IMO.

Which would ensure Trump's reelection. His 37% isn't going anywhere, no matter what. You could peel off 7-8% from the next cohort who just didn't like HRC, and arguably another 20% from the Dems, but you still fall way short of Trump's 37%.

Will the Dems really put up the furthest left of the lefties? There's no evidence as yet to suggest that's the most likely scenario.

Right now, the most old school Dem, who isn't even in the race, leads the pack. Sure, the next guy up is another very old white guy, though the furthest left. But there's a whole bunch of candidates who will be making their own pitch and a couple will build some momentum.

My hunch is that the person who will ultimately emerge from the pack will be positive in tone, not angry in tone, and will be more moderate than the far, far left wing. Sure, progressive, sufficiently so for the base, but less easily pigeonholed as a, shudder, "socialist". And if the bona fides of the Presidential candidate aren't sufficiently midwestern 'nice', he or she will pick up as VP candidate someone who addresses that part of the party, someone who wins midwestern rural and industrial blue collar votes. Alternatively, if a midwestern style candidate emerges at the top of the ticket, there will be a look for someone bringing more diversity, whether thats gender or race or coastal or whatever. It would certainly be a surprise to see 2 men given the plethora of credible women. I'd be less surprised by 2 women, depending on who they are. I'm not as sure whether we'll see a candidate of color on the ticket than at least one woman.

But it will surely be interesting.

What do you mean? Outside of Uncle Joe the present Democrats are steamrolling over one another in the foot race to the far left. Have you listened to what some of then are actually saying? a Fan likes John Hickenlooper and I admire the man as well. I would rather have a rational liberal than any one of the butt cracks now running for the Democrat/Socialist/Communist nomination for POTUS. Do you really think that the 20 percent plus group of independent voters will back such a radical DSC agenda come 2020? I do not believe they can win going down that road, at least not yet.

[OCanada]

On key issues many of them are rushing to take positions that are supported by a majority of the country try but have been ignored or disregarded. They are t leading they are following.

[MDlaxfan76]

I suppose your point was more about anything now goes...... I agree with that.

This. Sorry, complaints about what and how our leaders speak went bye bye with not just the arrival of Trump, but with the ridiculously high approval ratings Trump gets with Republican Voters.

Republican Voters set the bar. And now here we are.

Both Republicans and Democrats have been ignoring the needs of mainstream America for decades now. You scratch your ass wondering how someone like Trump gets elected. He got elected because enough people are fed up with the bull cookies both parties have been dishing out for so very long. It is astounding to me that a buttwipe like DJT was able to present himself as the best option available. That speaks volumes to the incompetence of Rs and Ds alike. Even more astounding... the Democrat party has not yet figured out how they effed up the election. Instead of telling Americans what their plans are all they can tell America is what a piece of excrement Trump is. Like most people in America don't already know that? So the options for mainstream America will be... more of DJT or a 180 turn to a radical, and I mean radical far left agenda. Looks like a perfect opportunity for the right third party candidate IMO.

Which would ensure Trump's reelection. His 37% isn't going anywhere, no matter what. You could peel off 7-8% from the next cohort who just didn't like HRC, and arguably another 20% from the Dems, but you still fall way short of Trump's 37%.

Will the Dems really put up the furthest left of the lefties? There's no evidence as yet to suggest that's the most likely scenario.

Right now, the most old school Dem, who isn't even in the race, leads the pack. Sure, the next guy up is another very old white guy, though the furthest left. But there's a whole bunch of candidates who will be making their own pitch and a couple will build some momentum.

My hunch is that the person who will ultimately emerge from the pack will be positive in tone, not angry in tone, and will be more moderate than the far, far left wing. Sure, progressive, sufficiently so for the base, but less easily pigeonholed as a, shudder, "socialist". And if the bona fides of the Presidential candidate aren't sufficiently midwestern 'nice', he or she will pick up as VP candidate someone who addresses that part of the party, someone who wins midwestern rural and industrial blue collar votes. Alternatively, if a midwestern style candidate emerges at the top of the ticket, there will be a look for someone bringing more diversity, whether thats gender or race or coastal or whatever. It would certainly be a surprise to see 2 men given the plethora of credible women. I'd be less surprised by 2 women, depending on who they are. I'm not as sure whether we'll see a candidate of color on the ticket than at least one woman.

But it will surely be interesting.

What do you mean? Outside of Uncle Joe the present Democrats are steamrolling over one another in the foot race to the far left. Have you listened to what some of then are actually saying? a Fan likes John Hickenlooper and I admire the man as well. I would rather have a rational liberal than any one of the butt cracks now running for the Democrat/Socialist/Communist nomination for POTUS. Do you really think that the 20 percent plus group of independent voters will back such a radical DSC agenda come 2020? I do not believe they can win going down that road, at least not yet.

cradle, I fully commiserate with you in your alarm that some of Dems are further to the 'left' than you are. No doubt.

But there's a whole bunch of candidates who fit my description of more moderate views, people who have appealed to independents and even some R's. Several of them have won in red districts, others very close.

You need to look a little harder at those candidates and get off of Fox and other hyper-alarmist sources.

And OC is right that, other than the furthest extreme policy prescriptions, the candidates who are leaning left are really leaning into where the majority of the country is on those particular issues. Their 'takes' on these policies are more moderate and more practical than the most extreme statements by a few.

I think you'd find their actual views and policy prescriptions to be the sort of 'rational liberal' you'd be ok with having in the Oval Office.

I'd offer up Klobuchar, Ryan, and Mayor Pete, along with Hickenlooper, as prime examples with ample progressive bona fides yet capable of working with and appealing to traditional conservatives (I put Trumpists in a different box, because I don't think they're actually conservative). I'd even add Gillibrand, who has won in red districts. She tends to get a little out there to the left, but when she talks about the practical aspects of her policy ideas, she's actually pretty good, not as extreme as she's made out to be. Julian Castro is a pragmatist. Beto we don't really know yet about where he comes down specifically on policy, but his tone is certainly positive with a centrist/progressive appeal.

I hear that Booker has baggage, don't know for sure. Harris has a solid prosecutor background but is being challenged to tack leftward. Warren is hard left, Bernie hardest left.

AOC is not in the race, though you wouldn't know it over on Fox News.

[get it to x]

Trump used over the top insults to win the primaries. If he had acted like Jeb! he would never have won. Hilary revealed the Progressive (as well as the so called Establishment's), disdain for every day Americans. Trump got elected precisely because of these revelations, and he would be stupid to not continue to reveal them. Take the border issue. Any thinking person knows we have a porous border with all of the attendant problems, like fentanyl deaths. Rather than save what could be many lives they "resist" to avoid giving the President a win. We are in a rowboat that is spinning in a circle while drifting downstream because centralized power is more important to one party than serving the people.

[youthathletics]

Trump used over the top insults to win the primaries. If he had acted like Jeb! he would never have won. Hilary revealed the Progressive (as well as the so called Establishment's), disdain for every day Americans. Trump got elected precisely because of these revelations, and he would be stupid to not continue to reveal them. Take the border issue. Any thinking person knows we have a porous border with all of the attendant problems, like fentanyl deaths. Rather than save what could be many lives they "resist" to avoid giving the President a win. We are in a rowboat that is spinning in a circle while drifting downstream because centralized power is more important to one party than serving the people.

+1