All Things Russia & Ukraine

[old salt]

You and frmanfan just got done making fun of posters who are upset by Trump and his cronies' behavior. How many times were Trump and his advisors caught in clear lies? And you made fun of anyone who dared say that they don't like being lied to. You retorted "that's not illegal". "That's just a process crime". And my personal favorite "he was tricked into lying".

And not two posts later, here you are, incensed at, you know....precisely the same stupid behavior that upset other posters when it came to Trump. Lying. Abuse of power. Conflicts of interest. Suddenly, truth matters.

VDH and the rest of the partisan hacks can go to hell.

Incensed ? I'm not upset. I'm enjoying watching the reckoning. We're finally getting the rest of the story.

.. ...VDH just came on FNC to talk about that article. They just showed a clip of Brennan saying -- "I don't know if I received bad information, but I think I suspected there was more than there actually was." ...that's Obama's CIA Director folks.

[a fan]

Incensed ? I'm not upset. I'm enjoying watching the reckoning. We're finally getting the rest of the story.

From whom?

Might as well get used to this: "that happened 4 years ago. I don't remember".

[OCanada]

The fact is Trump has advanced the major policy goals of Russia since taking office. There is also a pretty clear pattern of guid pro quo.

Trump’s daily ration of lies now exceeds 22 per day that doesn’t count the proliferation of lies, bad data, omissions that amount to lies from him, his family and appointees. Not to mention the suppression of transparency and failure to observe federal laws

[MDlaxfan76]

The fact is Trump has advanced the major policy goals of Russia since taking office. There is also a pretty clear pattern of guid pro quo.

Trump’s daily ration of lies now exceeds 22 per day that doesn’t count the proliferation of lies, bad data, omissions that amount to lies from him, his family and appointees. Not to mention the suppression of transparency and failure to observe federal laws

This probably belongs on the Orange Duce thread, but what the heck is going on in Trump's fevered mind that leads him to falsely claim that his father was born in Germany (while criticizing Germany but expressing fondness for the country...as a German).

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 346343002/

He has a pattern of projecting false critique on others when he feels critiqued or likely to be critiqued for the same thing accurately. That's a weird trick of mind.

So, too, is the creation of false narratives that somehow align with his aspirations. I'm a hugely successful billionaire, self-made really, who only got a little help from dear old dad....who was born in Germany? Not the current Germany, but the old Germany.

Make Germany Great Again? or make America like the old Germany? what's the aspiration he's twisting up?

Is his fondness for Germany under the Kaiser...or Der Fuhrer?
Authoritarianism.

Weird at a minimum.

Of much greater concern is his attack on the election process as "rigged" and that if he loses it will be because he was cheated.

Putin couldn't ask for more.

[dislaxxic]

THE PARALLEL TRACKS OF DISCLOSURE ON WHY MANAFORT SHARED CAMPAIGN POLLING DATA WITH HIS RUSSIAN CO-CONSPIRATOR

Randy's potty-mouthed girlfriend Marcy continues to kill it on this investigation, and tells us WHY we are nowhere NEAR "total exoneration"

..

[old salt]

THE PARALLEL TRACKS OF DISCLOSURE ON WHY MANAFORT SHARED CAMPAIGN POLLING DATA WITH HIS RUSSIAN CO-CONSPIRATOR

Randy's potty-mouthed girlfriend Marcy continues to kill it on this investigation, and tells us WHY we are nowhere NEAR "total exoneration"

Let's see if the Mueller report reveals details about the polling data Manafort gave to KK, if there's any intel on who KK gave it to, & if/how it was used.
Is there any correlation between the polling data & anything the Russians did, as in social media buys or bot patterns ?
That should have been part of any counter intel investigation. Remember, Gates co-operated fully.

[foreverlax]

THE PARALLEL TRACKS OF DISCLOSURE ON WHY MANAFORT SHARED CAMPAIGN POLLING DATA WITH HIS RUSSIAN CO-CONSPIRATOR

Randy's potty-mouthed girlfriend Marcy continues to kill it on this investigation, and tells us WHY we are nowhere NEAR "total exoneration"

Let's see if the Mueller report reveals details about the polling data Manafort gave to KK, if there's any intel on who KK gave it to, & if/how it was used.
Is there any correlation between the polling data & anything the Russians did, as in social media buys or bot patterns ?
That should have been part of any counter intel investigation. Remember, Gates co-operated fully.

Seems that would be exactly the type of "intelligence" that would be redacted from the public's view.

The fact that this information was given to a Russian, regardless of what was done with the information, shows an attempt at something....something you would want to hide and lie about. Otherwise, why do it?

[old salt]

The fact is Trump has advanced the major policy goals of Russia since taking office. There is also a pretty clear pattern of guid pro quo.

How ? US tanks are in Poland & US destroyers are in the Black Sea. Site surveys are underway for a Ft Trump in Poland.

The NATO SecGen is in the WH & before Congress, praising Trump for his support of NATO & his motivating other NATO members to contribute more to the common defense.

We've conducted the most provocative & confrontational military exercises, right up to Russia's borders, since the Cold War.
We've increased force levels & military spending in Europe. Our NATO allies are taking delivery of F-35's & deploying on USN aircraft carriers (for the first time in history). We've started sending US carrier groups back through the GIUK gap into the North Sea & above the Arctic Circle. Our Marines in Norway exercised right up to Russia's border.

The US, under Trump, is propping NATO up & giving the slackers a boot in the ass.
Germany won't commit to ever exceeding 1.25% of GDP on defense spending. German military readiness is a joke.

Our EU allies are lobbying us to reduce our sanctions on Russia. Trump has exposed the German-Russian trade & energy interests which are the major factor undermining NATO solidarity & putting our E EUro allies at risk.

[MDlaxfan76]

THE PARALLEL TRACKS OF DISCLOSURE ON WHY MANAFORT SHARED CAMPAIGN POLLING DATA WITH HIS RUSSIAN CO-CONSPIRATOR

Randy's potty-mouthed girlfriend Marcy continues to kill it on this investigation, and tells us WHY we are nowhere NEAR "total exoneration"

Let's see if the Mueller report reveals details about the polling data Manafort gave to KK, if there's any intel on who KK gave it to, & if/how it was used.
Is there any correlation between the polling data & anything the Russians did, as in social media buys or bot patterns ?
That should have been part of any counter intel investigation. Remember, Gates co-operated fully.

Seems that would be exactly the type of "intelligence" that would be redacted from the public's view.

The fact that this information was given to a Russian, regardless of what was done with the information, shows an attempt at something....something you would want to hide and lie about. Otherwise, why do it?

Why do it AND why lie about it?

[MDlaxfan76]

The fact is Trump has advanced the major policy goals of Russia since taking office. There is also a pretty clear pattern of guid pro quo.

How ? US tanks are in Poland & US destroyers are in the Black Sea. Site surveys are underway for a Ft Trump in Poland.

The NATO SecGen is in the WH & before Congress, praising Trump for his support of NATO & his motivating other NATO members to contribute more to the common defense.

We've conducted the most provocative & confrontational military exercises, right up to Russia's borders, since the Cold War.
We've increased force levels & military spending in Europe. Our NATO allies are taking delivery of F-35's & deploying on USN aircraft carriers (for the first time in history). We've started sending US carrier groups back through the GIUK gap into the North Sea & above the Arctic Circle. Our Marines in Norway exercised right up to Russia's border.

The US, under Trump, is propping NATO up & giving the slackers a boot in the ass.

Our EU allies are lobbying us to reduce our sanctions on Russia. Trump has exposed the German-Russian trade & energy interests which are the major factor undermining NATO solidarity & putting our E EUro allies at risk. Germany won't commit to ever exceeding 1.25% of GDP on defense spending. German military readiness is a joke.

Yup, that's the narrative.

See, we flex our muscles on the border, our military spending is up. Russia must be quaking in their boots.

But we undermine allied democracies, bolster authoritarians, and leave a vacuum for Russia and China.
Not to mention that damage done in the US.

[old salt]

THE PARALLEL TRACKS OF DISCLOSURE ON WHY MANAFORT SHARED CAMPAIGN POLLING DATA WITH HIS RUSSIAN CO-CONSPIRATOR

Randy's potty-mouthed girlfriend Marcy continues to kill it on this investigation, and tells us WHY we are nowhere NEAR "total exoneration"

Let's see if the Mueller report reveals details about the polling data Manafort gave to KK, if there's any intel on who KK gave it to, & if/how it was used.
Is there any correlation between the polling data & anything the Russians did, as in social media buys or bot patterns ?
That should have been part of any counter intel investigation. Remember, Gates co-operated fully.

Seems that would be exactly the type of "intelligence" that would be redacted from the public's view.

The fact that this information was given to a Russian, regardless of what was done with the information, shows an attempt at something....something you would want to hide and lie about. Otherwise, why do it?

So if Mueller doesn't address it, the TDS conspiracy theory will endure.

[foreverlax]

THE PARALLEL TRACKS OF DISCLOSURE ON WHY MANAFORT SHARED CAMPAIGN POLLING DATA WITH HIS RUSSIAN CO-CONSPIRATOR

Randy's potty-mouthed girlfriend Marcy continues to kill it on this investigation, and tells us WHY we are nowhere NEAR "total exoneration"

Let's see if the Mueller report reveals details about the polling data Manafort gave to KK, if there's any intel on who KK gave it to, & if/how it was used.
Is there any correlation between the polling data & anything the Russians did, as in social media buys or bot patterns ?
That should have been part of any counter intel investigation. Remember, Gates co-operated fully.

Seems that would be exactly the type of "intelligence" that would be redacted from the public's view.

The fact that this information was given to a Russian, regardless of what was done with the information, shows an attempt at something....something you would want to hide and lie about. Otherwise, why do it?

So if Mueller doesn't address it, the TDS conspiracy theory will endure.

Not what I was suggesting....Mueller may have addressed it fully and Barr may red line it, for whatever reasons he may chose. Still doesn't answer why he did it and why he lied about it. VDH may have some thoughts.

[old salt]

The fact is Trump has advanced the major policy goals of Russia since taking office. There is also a pretty clear pattern of guid pro quo.

How ? US tanks are in Poland & US destroyers are in the Black Sea. Site surveys are underway for a Ft Trump in Poland.

The NATO SecGen is in the WH & before Congress, praising Trump for his support of NATO & his motivating other NATO members to contribute more to the common defense.

We've conducted the most provocative & confrontational military exercises, right up to Russia's borders, since the Cold War.
We've increased force levels & military spending in Europe. Our NATO allies are taking delivery of F-35's & deploying on USN aircraft carriers (for the first time in history). We've started sending US carrier groups back through the GIUK gap into the North Sea & above the Arctic Circle. Our Marines in Norway exercised right up to Russia's border.

The US, under Trump, is propping NATO up & giving the slackers a boot in the ass.

Our EU allies are lobbying us to reduce our sanctions on Russia. Trump has exposed the German-Russian trade & energy interests which are the major factor undermining NATO solidarity & putting our E EUro allies at risk. Germany won't commit to ever exceeding 1.25% of GDP on defense spending. German military readiness is a joke.

Yup, that's the narrative.

See, we flex our muscles on the border, our military spending is up. Russia must be quaking in their boots.

But we undermine allied democracies, bolster authoritarians, and leave a vacuum for Russia and China.
Not to mention that damage done in the US.

Russia's not quaking in their boots, but our Baltic allies are.
All you care about is rhetoric, rather than results.

There's merit in Germany's instincts to de-escalate & de-militarize NATO's E frontier, but our TDS sore losers make any attempt to deal with Russia "treasonous" & politically radioactive. So the TDS zombies lurch into another expensive & dangerous Cold War.

[a fan]

There's merit in Germany's instincts to de-escalate & de-militarize NATO's E frontier, but our TDS sore losers make any attempt to deal with Russia "treasonous" & politically radioactive. So the TDS zombies lurch into another expensive & dangerous Cold War.

The TDS stuff has been going on for just two years. How were things going between Putin and the US the last ~20 years? Flawless, right? And then the whole Mueller thing wrecked it all. Great narrative. TDS wrecked what would surely have been a Trumpian masterstroke of foreign policy.

Can't blame Trump for how we handle Russia, because....wait, why can't we blame Trump for not handling Putin, again? You know: the guy we elected to handle foreign policy decisions?

The ONLY thing Trump can't do is roll over for Putin. Which, of course, is exactly what you want him to do. You think like Putin does: you think Russia "owns" the Ukraine, and the Ukraine can't make sovereign decisions...and if they do, that's "wrong".

So sure. Trump can't get rid of all sanctions just because he "feels like it". Well geez, he's really out of options if he can't do that.

Poor guy. Can I send him flowers or something?

[OCanada]

How? Where have you been hiding or perhaps better why aren’t you better acquainted with long standing Russian foreign policy goals. Oleg Kalugin described active measures as the”heart and soul’ of intelligence going back to Soviet days. In other words subversive, active measures “to weaken the West,to drive wedges in the western community alliances of ALL sorts, particularly NATO, to sow dischord among allies, to weaken the Ynited States in the eyes of the people of Europe, Asia, Africa, Latin America.... to make America more vulnerable to the anger and distrust of other people’s”

Of particular interest is the enormous reliance of the Trump businesses on Russian sourced money. “The West permitted the Russians oligarchs to turn its banks and businesses structures into machines for laundering Russian dirty money. “ Lila Shevtsova.

The Baltic States are very afraid of Russia with Tru o in office. The Russians have been very unhappy with the encroachment of NATO as it has added countries since founding on the Russian border

They annexed Crimea so why not Estonia or Latvia. Trump has done nothing but lessen the price that should be paying.

Trump has abolished the group that was created to prevent foreign powers or hackers from interfering in our elections.

I would love to play poker with him. He has a tell. He protects his activities and desires onto everyone else.

[old salt]

I don't think you gents have been reading my posts since Putin grabbed Crimea, but thanks for the tutorial.
We've had good times & bad times with Putin since he came to power. We had 3 reset attempts before Trump came into office.

If you're concerned about the Baltics, compare the combat power we've deployed there since Trump took office to before.

Putin supported us in Desert Storm. He warned us about Islamic terrorism & shared intel before & after 9-11. He worked with NATO in the Balkans (until we bombed Belgrade). He helped us in Afghanistan & let us move logistics through Russia & his"stan allies.

How did we thank him ? We brought former Soviet Republics & the remaining Warsaw Pact nations into NATO -- right up to Russia's borders, while offering NATO & EU menbership to Ukraine & Georgia.

I just finished reading this. It's now avail in public libraries. I recommend it if you'd like to have a fact based discussion.
https://www.npr.org/2019/02/24/69748132 ... utin-wants

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/ ... 9a9874e0bd

The short answer: Russia actually conducts diplomacy.

For the longer answer, Stent expertly walks readers through Moscow’s relations with every region in the world, avoiding the hysteria that warps discussion of the country.

Aware that too many books about Russian foreign policy arrive instantly obsolete because they lack a foundation in history or political culture, Stent opens with those subjects. Of the Russia-West clash, she writes that “it has been tempting to personalize the answer: it is all due to Vladimir Putin and his small group of Kremlin insiders,” but she adds that “behind the new tsar stands a thousand-year-old state with traditions and self-understanding that precede Putin and will surely outlast him.” Nonetheless, we get a book mostly about the czars — Mikhail Gorbachev’s, Boris Yeltsin’s and especially Putin’s official meetings, in minute detail. There is little about institutional makeup, interest group brawling or internal policy differences.


Stent clarifies that James Baker, George H.W. Bush’s secretary of state, did not formally agree in 1990 to refrain from enlarging NATO in connection with German unification. But she also illuminates how in 1993, Warren Christopher, President Bill Clinton’s secretary of state, ineptly assured Yeltsin that a so-called Partnership for Peace program would not entail NATO membership for Eastern European states, a vow that Clinton promptly broke. At the same time, she stresses that Moscow has not fleshed out the critical details in its persistent call for a new security architecture in Europe that would replace NATO and satisfy all parties, including former Russian satellites and possessions.

What does not come through is the larger strategic failure of U.S.-Russia policy under Obama. The president was suitably wary of American overextension, hyper-militarization and leading with democracy promotion, but he stocked his administration with regime change zealots, whom he did not empower to do what they were clamoring to do, but whom the Kremlin and others could point to and say, Aha, they are the real U.S. policy.

Stent shows how Russia seizes upon the wealth of opportunities gifted again and again by U.S. blundering or inattention. She recounts the leverage Moscow derives from its exceptional tool kit: a U.N. Security Council veto, a massive doomsday arsenal, heavy investment in its military, global weapons sales, vast hydrocarbon reserves and tactical daring (hacking, disinformation, assassinations). She further underscores the country’s web of long-standing relationships, inherited from the ideological Soviet Union. But unlike the latter, Russia’s global engagement is coldly pragmatic. She notes of the Middle East — in an observation that applies broadly — that Russia’s “appeal as an opponent of regime change and supporter of existing governments endears it to all governments in the area, authoritarian and democratic.”


Additional advantage accrues from a certain amorality. And spoliation is a far easier game to play than nation building.

Stent’s regionally compartmentalized tour of Russian foreign policy lacks a compelling narrative arc. Still, chapters about the interminable deadlock in Russia-Japan relations or the economic sanctions imposed by Europe illuminate the flaws in any depiction of Russia as some global power broker, and the book culminates in a clear-eyed portrayal of the inescapably troubled U.S.-Russia relationship. She argues for strong pushback against Russian aggression combined with a proactive quest for areas of common interest, such as counterterrorism or arms control and nonproliferation. At the same time, though, she acknowledges that three failed efforts to reset the bilateral relationship have demonstrated that engagement has worked no better than attempts at isolation.

Injecting a dose of reality, Stent notes that “Eurasia represents an intermittent, as opposed to a core, interest for the West,” so that “there are limits to which [the West] will go to challenge Russia’s interests in the region.” She deems the end of loose talk about further NATO expansion to places such as Ukraine or Georgia a victory for Putin, but in light of her analysis, this sobriety could be seen as inevitable. In any case, Russia’s challenge to the United States long ago transcended its own backyard.

But Putin’s foreign policy judo — a martial art that turns the strength of an opponent against that opponent — works only if the United States and its allies put themselves into vulnerable positions, such as Europe’s adoption of the euro without fiscal integration, the second Iraq War, the global financial crisis, pervasive social media platforms that are cheaply weaponizable.

Ultimately, whether Russia obtains much, if any, enduring strategic gain from its heightened activism abroad remains doubtful, considering the country’s fraught relations with Europe and its gathering eclipse by China. Vital technology transfer and major investment do not follow from ever-nastier one-upmanship of the West or rhetorical tribute paid by Beijing.

[runrussellrun]

There's merit in Germany's instincts to de-escalate & de-militarize NATO's E frontier, but our TDS sore losers make any attempt to deal with Russia "treasonous" & politically radioactive. So the TDS zombies lurch into another expensive & dangerous Cold War.

The TDS stuff has been going on for just two years. How were things going between Putin and the US the last ~20 years? Flawless, right? And then the whole Mueller thing wrecked it all. Great narrative. TDS wrecked what would surely have been a Trumpian masterstroke of foreign policy.

Can't blame Trump for how we handle Russia, because....wait, why can't we blame Trump for not handling Putin, again? You know: the guy we elected to handle foreign policy decisions?

The ONLY thing Trump can't do is roll over for Putin. Which, of course, is exactly what you want him to do. You think like Putin does: you think Russia "owns" the Ukraine, and the Ukraine can't make sovereign decisions...and if they do, that's "wrong".

So sure. Trump can't get rid of all sanctions just because he "feels like it". Well geez, he's really out of options if he can't do that.

Poor guy. Can I send him flowers or something?

Ukraine equals Puerto Rico. Or Guam. Or the PHillipines. Or Mexico. Or any place we have a military base. We leaving any of those any time soon. Anyone give the USA sanctions for invading Iraq or ....or....or.....or.

What Russian sanctions. STOP saying this........there are NO russian sanctions. They are a myth. Prove me wrong.

[a fan]

https://www.state.gov/e/eb/tfs/spi/ukrainerussia/

[a fan]

How did we thank him ? We brought former Soviet Republics & the remaining Warsaw Pact nations into NATO -- right up to Russia's borders, while offering NATO & EU menbership to Ukraine & Georgia

There it is. You think Ukraine and Georgia are owned by Putin, and therefore America and the Ukraine and Georgia are "wrong". I'm sure Putin shares your view. You're both wrong.

They are free to sign with anyone they wish. That's what "sovereignty" means.

[old salt]

How did we thank him ? We brought former Soviet Republics & the remaining Warsaw Pact nations into NATO -- right up to Russia's borders, while offering NATO & EU menbership to Ukraine & Georgia

There it is. You think Ukraine and Georgia are owned by Putin, and therefore America and the Ukraine and Georgia are "wrong". I'm sure Putin shares your view. You're both wrong.

They are free to sign with anyone they wish. That's what "sovereignty" means.

If we invite them into NATO, we're obligated to defend their borders. You ok with that ? The rest of our NATO allies are not.