Next Programs To Win National Titles For The First Time?

[blue angels]

-I think Georgetown is going to be fine. Their recruiting continues to be great. Yes, these excuses can only go so far. But I hope that at least a few of you agree with me that the following two things might have gotten the best of them against Delaware. All the power to the Blue Hens, and Coach Ben DeLuca, but:

-Georgetown played in a very down Big East Conference.
-Georgetown played against a Delaware team that wasn't just peaking, but who was also more in the game-groove due to having played much more recently.

And Delaware had a head coach let go by the next opponent in Cornell and head assistant let go by Georgetown. Couple that with a Georgetown team that was rolling but hadn’t really been tested in over a month and you have insane motivation on Hens side and a Georgetown team that was too comfortable. Perfect storm. No excuse but that is basically how this played out. Georgetown had an incredible opportunity and let it get away.

Agree with all of these points, but I’d also argue that Georgetown wins that game going away if SSDM #10 Will Godine doesn’t break his hand that week in practice. Geddes played well on the rope unit, but the truth is that Godine’s replacements made bad decisions and were physically taken advantage of that night. Godine will be an All American next year, and frankly should have been at least an HM AA this year with his 48 ground balls and 9 caused turnovers.

Was Georgetown the only team to have key injuries impact them in the tournament???? I think not and I don't hear anyone else grousing about those what ifs... Time to stop these excuses every year for why they cannot get far in the tournament. They got beat by the better team, Delaware. End of story.

[MDlaxfan76]

-I think Georgetown is going to be fine. Their recruiting continues to be great. Yes, these excuses can only go so far. But I hope that at least a few of you agree with me that the following two things might have gotten the best of them against Delaware. All the power to the Blue Hens, and Coach Ben DeLuca, but:

-Georgetown played in a very down Big East Conference.
-Georgetown played against a Delaware team that wasn't just peaking, but who was also more in the game-groove due to having played much more recently.

And Delaware had a head coach let go by the next opponent in Cornell and head assistant let go by Georgetown. Couple that with a Georgetown team that was rolling but hadn’t really been tested in over a month and you have insane motivation on Hens side and a Georgetown team that was too comfortable. Perfect storm. No excuse but that is basically how this played out. Georgetown had an incredible opportunity and let it get away.

Agree with all of these points, but I’d also argue that Georgetown wins that game going away if SSDM #10 Will Godine doesn’t break his hand that week in practice. Geddes played well on the rope unit, but the truth is that Godine’s replacements made bad decisions and were physically taken advantage of that night. Godine will be an All American next year, and frankly should have been at least an HM AA this year with his 48 ground balls and 9 caused turnovers.

Was Georgetown the only team to have key injuries impact them in the tournament???? I think not and I don't hear anyone else grousing about those what ifs... Time to stop these excuses every year for why they cannot get far in the tournament. They got beat by the better team, Delaware. End of story.

Well, the better team that day...it's a stretch to say definitely "better" otherwise. But your fundamental point is correct, Georgetown needs to actually win some rounds in the NCAA's before making claims. Can't blame injuries, they happen to everyone. Definitely can't be too "comfortable"...

[1766]

Rutgers program built on transfers. Not a long term recipe for success.

Recruiting at the high school level has never been better at Rutgers.

[ICGrad]

-Georgetown played in a very down Big East Conference.

Well, the better team that day...it's a stretch to say definitely "better" otherwise. But your fundamental point is correct, Georgetown needs to actually win some rounds in the NCAA's before making claims. Can't blame injuries, they happen to everyone. Definitely can't be too "comfortable"...

Of course, the other angle is that maybe Georgetown just wasn't that good.

As gymman points out, the BE conference struggled through a down season this year. Georgetown posted a great record, but didn't play a single top 10 team after their (relatively early-season) loss to Princeton.

On the eave of the tourney, I suggested that they might be overrated and was roundly dismissed when I said I wouldn't be that surprised if they made an early exit. Aside from a couple of impressive early season wins (Penn and Notre Dame, both very solid wins), Georgetown turned in extremely solid performance against a slate of opponents who were mostly outside of the top 20. After the Richmond win (a nice win, but again...on March 12!) they played 3 more games against top 20 teams: Villanova x2 (19) and Denver (20). In the two+ months between their win over Richmond and their loss to Delaware, their toughest game was against #19 Villanova.

Yeah, they did more than take care of business, but they were hardly battle tested, and maybe they weren't nearly as good as their record and/or their ranking suggested.

[MDlaxfan76]

-Georgetown played in a very down Big East Conference.

Well, the better team that day...it's a stretch to say definitely "better" otherwise. But your fundamental point is correct, Georgetown needs to actually win some rounds in the NCAA's before making claims. Can't blame injuries, they happen to everyone. Definitely can't be too "comfortable"...

Of course, the other angle is that maybe Georgetown just wasn't that good.

As gymman points out, the BE conference struggled through a down season this year. Georgetown posted a great record, but didn't play a single top 10 team after their (relatively early-season) loss to Princeton.

On the eave of the tourney, I suggested that they might be overrated and was roundly dismissed when I said I wouldn't be that surprised if they made an early exit. Aside from a couple of impressive early season wins (Penn and Notre Dame, both very solid wins), Georgetown turned in extremely solid performance against a slate of opponents who were mostly outside of the top 20. After the Richmond win (a nice win, but again...on March 12!) they played 3 more games against top 20 teams: Villanova x2 (19) and Denver (20). In the two+ months between their win over Richmond and their loss to Delaware, their toughest game was against #19 Villanova.

Yeah, they did more than take care of business, but they were hardly battle tested, and maybe they weren't nearly as good as their record and/or their ranking suggested.

Fair enough. The most important wins were early in the season.
But that's a heck of a lot of wins, including over Penn and Notre Dame (who some want to tell us was really a #6 ) .

So, pretty darn good team, but fair point that they may well have not been in top level fighting trim down the back stretch, vulnerable to an upset. Including to a team that had lost 6 games, including losing to some teams outside the top 20 and hadn't beaten any team in the top 20 after a 1 goal win back mid-February over #17 St. Josephs.

[1766]

-Georgetown played in a very down Big East Conference.

Well, the better team that day...it's a stretch to say definitely "better" otherwise. But your fundamental point is correct, Georgetown needs to actually win some rounds in the NCAA's before making claims. Can't blame injuries, they happen to everyone. Definitely can't be too "comfortable"...

Of course, the other angle is that maybe Georgetown just wasn't that good.

As gymman points out, the BE conference struggled through a down season this year. Georgetown posted a great record, but didn't play a single top 10 team after their (relatively early-season) loss to Princeton.

On the eave of the tourney, I suggested that they might be overrated and was roundly dismissed when I said I wouldn't be that surprised if they made an early exit. Aside from a couple of impressive early season wins (Penn and Notre Dame, both very solid wins), Georgetown turned in extremely solid performance against a slate of opponents who were mostly outside of the top 20. After the Richmond win (a nice win, but again...on March 12!) they played 3 more games against top 20 teams: Villanova x2 (19) and Denver (20). In the two+ months between their win over Richmond and their loss to Delaware, their toughest game was against #19 Villanova.

Yeah, they did more than take care of business, but they were hardly battle tested, and maybe they weren't nearly as good as their record and/or their ranking suggested.

They were clearly overrated.

[HGK]

-Georgetown played in a very down Big East Conference.

Well, the better team that day...it's a stretch to say definitely "better" otherwise. But your fundamental point is correct, Georgetown needs to actually win some rounds in the NCAA's before making claims. Can't blame injuries, they happen to everyone. Definitely can't be too "comfortable"...

Of course, the other angle is that maybe Georgetown just wasn't that good.

As gymman points out, the BE conference struggled through a down season this year. Georgetown posted a great record, but didn't play a single top 10 team after their (relatively early-season) loss to Princeton.

On the eave of the tourney, I suggested that they might be overrated and was roundly dismissed when I said I wouldn't be that surprised if they made an early exit. Aside from a couple of impressive early season wins (Penn and Notre Dame, both very solid wins), Georgetown turned in extremely solid performance against a slate of opponents who were mostly outside of the top 20. After the Richmond win (a nice win, but again...on March 12!) they played 3 more games against top 20 teams: Villanova x2 (19) and Denver (20). In the two+ months between their win over Richmond and their loss to Delaware, their toughest game was against #19 Villanova.

Yeah, they did more than take care of business, but they were hardly battle tested, and maybe they weren't nearly as good as their record and/or their ranking suggested.

They were clearly overrated.

Surprising to me there is this much negative banter about a school that has been to one Final Four and never played on Memorial Day. You can look at Hoya thread for years and it is optimism always but nobody ever says we are “going to win it all”. Yes they underachieved expectations this year and as a Hoya that sucks, but this program is legit and can “possibly “ contend for a National Championship in next few years if things break their way. Away from ACC , top of Big10 and the top IVY schools nobody else can really make that claim. Lot to be optimistic about for Hoyas going forward.

[1766]

-Georgetown played in a very down Big East Conference.

Well, the better team that day...it's a stretch to say definitely "better" otherwise. But your fundamental point is correct, Georgetown needs to actually win some rounds in the NCAA's before making claims. Can't blame injuries, they happen to everyone. Definitely can't be too "comfortable"...

Of course, the other angle is that maybe Georgetown just wasn't that good.

As gymman points out, the BE conference struggled through a down season this year. Georgetown posted a great record, but didn't play a single top 10 team after their (relatively early-season) loss to Princeton.

On the eave of the tourney, I suggested that they might be overrated and was roundly dismissed when I said I wouldn't be that surprised if they made an early exit. Aside from a couple of impressive early season wins (Penn and Notre Dame, both very solid wins), Georgetown turned in extremely solid performance against a slate of opponents who were mostly outside of the top 20. After the Richmond win (a nice win, but again...on March 12!) they played 3 more games against top 20 teams: Villanova x2 (19) and Denver (20). In the two+ months between their win over Richmond and their loss to Delaware, their toughest game was against #19 Villanova.

Yeah, they did more than take care of business, but they were hardly battle tested, and maybe they weren't nearly as good as their record and/or their ranking suggested.

They were clearly overrated.

Surprising to me there is this much negative banter about a school that has been to one Final Four and never played on Memorial Day. You can look at Hoya thread for years and it is optimism always but nobody ever says we are “going to win it all”. Yes they underachieved expectations this year and as a Hoya that sucks, but this program is legit and can “possibly “ contend for a National Championship in next few years if things break their way. Away from ACC , top of Big10 and the top IVY schools nobody else can really make that claim. Lot to be optimistic about for Hoyas going forward.

I agree. Definitely a lot to be excited about. There are a lot of players in the program. The question is can the coach and staff get them to keep progressing. For all the talent they have and how much hype they were getting, they still got beat in the first round. That has to be somewhat concerning.

[gymman1031]

Not many programs are currently, or have recently been, recruiting better then Georgetown. Let’s see if that pays off in the future. I will admit that, if you combine the talent the program has gotten throughout the years and all they have to offer, having been to only one Final Four is definitely underachieving.

[Farfromgeneva]

Urick built the program in the late 90s. Was fairly regular in the quarters in the 2000s. What’s Notre Dame or OSU done that’s so much better?

Let me restate it, Urick took over in 1990. Their cumulative historical record was 44-150 since 1971. Took him until 1997 to get them into the playoffs, despite always having winning seasons and being 63-29 between 90-96.

Then quarters in 98,2000, 02-07 w first round losses in 97 & 01. Final four in 99.

Where is the underachieving? Supposedly Urick dragged the program back down at the end which sucks why Warne got a 3-4yr grace period to perform worse than anything Urick did since he got to DC. Then since 2018 they’ve been to 3 straight playoffs, 6-0 in 20 though a gaudy record against weaker SOS than 2000s teams. But still been 44-13 since 2018.

Far better than Denver or anyone else in conference. Better and more consistent over a 20yr stretch than Loyola, Navy, Army, Albany, UMass, Udel, Towson, Brown, Penn, PSU, OSU, ND and far better off than Cuse or Hop last few years.

[Creasedive]

1-4 in the NCAA tournament over the past four years and two embarrassing defeats. All the transfers in the world aren’t going to fix having the players prepared and ready to go. They clearly weren’t vs UVA or Delaware. Time for them to reassess how they do things. Lots of talent on that roster - much of it on the bench. Evolve or die.

[MoralTerpitude]

The perception issue with Georgetown this year is that they were considered behind only Maryland, in a tier by themselves, and well above the rest of the country. They had very good early season wins, plus the loss to Princeton. Then they got into the heart of their season against a weaker Big East. If you judge them by those early games, they were within that second tier behind Maryland with teams like Princeton, Penn, UVa, and Rutgers… but not clearly above it. Recency bias and the weaker stretch run schedule led to them being overrated going into the tournament.

Very interested to see how they do in next year’s tournament, assuming they make it. If they underachieve again… it may just be a coaching issue.

[Farfromgeneva]

Understood but perception isn’t reality. Haley is talented but can be shut down by a strong athlete with quick feet. Upsets happen like UVA in BB, that’s why they’re upsets. Usually takes those unique positions like a exceptional D Man (Grant is in that top 4-5 in the country, FOGO (not in this case Reilly was better), exceptional goalie play (which they got 61% in that game on 23 SOG) and how many times does even a talent like MIke Robinson make that shot which is probably the greatest score I’ve honestly seen the way he was running “south” towards GLE at a declining angle without changing his pace behind the back from 10+ yards out? In a one goal game.

And it seemed like DeLuca out-coached Warne that day a little which is something that happens and is often part of the process of improvement to get to that level.

(Re)Building up to that level takes time. It’s going to take some hard to digest losses, an iterative approach by the staff and players to learn from failure and endurance of commitment. But none of that means they were overrated or just blew it. It means we all as fans and outsiders need to take a harder look at what our beliefs were and adjust those accordingly. Of course it’s easier to point the finger and ask others to do the hard work.

Not saying this is you, MoralTerp (does that mean you never went to Cluck U based on your name?), but for the people that want to sit around and say “you choked because I had a certain perception of you and if you don’t do better then I’m within my rights to demand accountability from you guys that I am not holding myself to”.

[ICGrad]

I think both MTerp and I are essentially saying the same thing: Not that Georgetown choked, but that they were overrated going into the tourney and that the fact that they didn't reach Memorial Day weekend was less surprising than it might first appear.

I personally thought they would get by Delaware, but I thought that Cornell would give them serious issues. They simply hadn't played an opponent of that caliber for over 2 months; me, I tend to place a little less emphasis on early-season wins because teams evolve so much during the course of the season, so while the wins over Penn, ND, and even Richmond were all strong wins, I wasn't sure they were indicative of who Georgetown was going into May.

Ultimately, too, I'm not sure how you even solve for this if you're Georgetown; I'm not blaming them in any way. After all, most teams play the meat of their conference schedule over the last 6+ weeks of the season, and you can't really blame Georgetown if their conference is having a down year. And I don't really have an issue with them grabbing the #2 seed; they had exceptional results playing the games on their schedule, and really had few close games over those last 2 months. Coupled with strong early-season wins and the great record, a #2 seed seemed earned. But that doesn't mean they weren't over-rated and doesn't mean they were tourney-ready going into May.

[Farfromgeneva]

How does “I’m fine with them having earned the 2 seed” Square with they were overrated? They seem related.

[ICGrad]

I mean, you look at their results. They won every game but one, against a reasonably hard schedule; I'm not sure who you put @ #2 if not them. Just because I personally feel that games won in early March are less indicative of who a team is than games won in late May doesn't invalidate those wins. They won their games.

That said, going into the tournament, I didn't personally feel they were the #2 team in the country.

[Farfromgeneva]

I mean, you look at their results. They won every game but one, against a reasonably hard schedule; I'm not sure who you put @ #2 if not them. Just because I personally feel that games won in early March are less indicative of who a team is than games won in late May doesn't invalidate those wins. They won their games.

That said, going into the tournament, I didn't personally feel they were the #2 team in the country.

I understand that they’re lack of late season challenges led them to be suspect and more at risk of an upset. And maybe the seeding aspect which is more “qualitative” evaluation should’ve been more skewed towards teams w late season challenges. Though that kind is the same issue you have with using RPI once you get into conference play-everyone is elevated quantitatively due to early season, 2mo old, OOC games rather than contemporary ones.

Maybe Del shouldn’t have been there and it should’ve been St Joes, Richmond (whom they beat later in their OOC in the snow) or BU and it’s a different outcome. Did they seem more at risk because the Big East was down? Yes, though I think that had a lot more to do with the weakness in depth with where Marquette, Prov and St Johns we’re this season than Denver being a little off their prior trajectory (though they did beat OSU) and Nova (whom I thought did just fine with their season against a pretty tough overall schedule).

I’m focused on the ones who talk like it was the worst choke job since my Kansas Jayhawks came back against Memphis in BB in 09 or the Red Sox/Yankees in 04.

[Creasedive]

It was a pretty bad choke. #2 seed losing at home.

[wahoomurf]

Rutgers program built on transfers. Not a long term recipe for success.

Recruiting at the high school level has never been better at Rutgers.

If Rutgers can recruit more kids from NJ and L.I. they'll be a constant presence in the mix for Memorial Day.

[MoralTerpitude]

Geneva, I did state before the tournament that I believed GU was within that second tier, but not above it. I also stated that they should be wary of Cornell. And, to some degree I think they choked as well - they made some poor defensive plays at the end, and seemed really tight when shooting, uncharacteristically so. Don't think the 19.5% shooting effort was entirely down to Delaware's D. In terms of accountability, yeah, I did not expect them to get knocked out in the first round, but conversely would not have been surprised if they had progressed and then lost in the quarterfinals.

It's entirely possible for a team to earn the #2 seed (which Georgetown undoubtedly did), but still be overrated. They earned their seed based on strong early season performance, unblemished conference play, and a high RPI. Separate from that, the lacrosse media at large said for the better part of the year that they stood alone as the biggest threat to the Terps.

I don't always eat Cluck U, but when I do I prefer to go Nuclear. I would think my name would imply more debaucherous and drunken trips to that fine establishment.