Oh jeez, I wasn't being entirely serious when I mentioned inventing a new statistic, but if someone was able to find a way to give it meaning I guess it wouldn't hurt. I think it would be difficult because you'd really have to know beforehand what each player taking the draw is intending to do with the ball and if it went as planned. Maybe you could look at information that already exists and compare numbers? You could maybe look at the number of draws taken and compare it to how many are won by the draw taker herself vs how many are won by her team vs how many are lost to the opposing draw taker vs how many are lost to the opposing team. I'm sure coaches keep additional stats than the official game stats and that may be one of them.Can Opener wrote: ↑Sun May 29, 2022 9:49 amAs I mentioned in my earlier post, I can't tell if you are serious with this post or not. As Mrs. CO might tell you, it wouldn't be the first time I failed to read the room. In case this was a sincere post, I will offer a few responses.njbill wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 9:31 amHere's a pet peeve of mine. People who try to make a change to the women's game based on something done on the men's side.Can Opener wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 8:23 am You are correct, Schleicher got the ball, but North took the DC. This has been a pet peeve of mine for some time. DCs should be recorded as in men’s lacrosse where the person taking the draw/FO gets the win if their team gains control. That is a more accurate portrayal of DC success.
How about if we do the reverse? I have an idea to change the men's game. Adopt the women's draw rules instead of the face down or face plant or whatever it is they call the play to start the men's game. The draw takes much more skill. The face plant only requires brute force. Two pigs rolling around in the mud, grunting and squealing, until one emerges with the ball. Not only does the draw take more skill to execute, but it is much more fun to watch from a fan's perspective. Who wants to watch two sumo wrestlers go at it?
So let's make a change to men's lacrosse, adopting a women's rule, for a change.
Now, to your point, which you have made before. It depends on the particular draw as to whether the center should get any credit if her team, but not she, wins the draw. If the center intends to, and does, direct the ball to a teammate on the circle, then, yes, she should get some credit. But if the ball simply squirts out in this direction or that, then, no, she shouldn't because she did nothing to help her team win the draw. Perhaps if there were a PFF type organization, they could provide this type of micro-analysis.
Edit to add: Maryland won the draw 23-14. In your view then, does North get all the blame for BC getting so badly beaten on the draw?
I am not trying to change the women's game, I was really just making a nerdy stat-keeping point about how DC success is measured. Maybe, as WLP alluded to, tracking who took the draw could be a supplemental stat, not a replacement. It would actually be quite simple to do. Either the men's way or the women's way of measuring FO/DC success has flaws. In the men's game, you could win control of the clamp, direct it perfectly to a teammate on the wing who flubs it and the other FO specialist gets credit for the win when his teammate makes a spectacular GB pick up. OTOH, a woman taking the draw could direct it perfectly to her teammate who gathers in the easy "pass" and the receiver gets credit for a DC. Recording who took the draw and whether her team gained control is a relevant stat, and yes, in the case of the MD game, I would be arguing against interest in supporting CN's case for the Tewy.
On the larger point of getting upset about "people who try to make a change to the women's game based on something done on the men's side," I really don't see why it's a problem to learn from what's done in the other gender's version of the game or in other sports. Women's NCAA basketball and lacrosse implemented a shot clock before NCAA men did. In each case, the men's pro league in the sport had adopted the shot clock before the NCAA women. Nothing evil there, just good iteration in both directions -- sometimes the men lead, sometimes the women lead. You would be hard-pressed to find many folks today who would say that free movement was a bad rule change. Or that adding fixed sideline and end line boundaries to women's lacrosse was a mistake. Or limiting the number of players involved in the draw area was dumb. Those changes all moved the women's game closer to the men's, but just because they were improvements, it doesn't mean that the women's game should add helmets and padded gloves or eliminate shooting space. Measured, thoughtful progress and evolution is a good thing.
I am confident that your description of the men's faceoff was just hyperbole, but I will address it anyway: "The face plant only requires brute force." Men's FO specialists are highly skilled athletes who need extremely quick reaction time, strategy, multiple moves/counter moves, grit and durability. Conor Calderone, BU's excellent Second Team All Patriot League FO man is listed generously in the program at 5' 7" and 170 pounds. Petey Lasalla, the All American from Virginia, is also 5' 7" and has 27 career goals and 11 assists. Of course you are free to campaign for the men to adopt the women's draw control, but I think you will have an easier time convincing the NRA to renounce the Second Amendment.
Otherwise, not much has changed since you and I agreed about the basic contours of the Tewaaraton race. The most likely scenario is that the winner of today's game will also produce the Tewy winner. That's really cool and exciting. I don't know why you got so angry yesterday when I think we are agreeing on this. Even on the "edge cases" where Carolina wins, but JO has a so-so day while CN has an outstanding individual performance, I don't think we are very far apart. I'd say 60-40 CN in that case, while I think you would acknowledge at least some probability greater than zero for her.
Peace, love & lacrosse.
I don't mean to split hairs, but It is very rare that you have a player standing alone on our outside of the circle. From what I've seen, 99 times out of 100 the players on the circle will have an opponent standing not just next to them, but often so close that they are touching one another. There will be nothing almost "easy" about catching a ball that is "passed" from the draw taker. It will be contested heavily. Every player on the circle is likely the top 3-4 scrappy, competitive 50/50 ball winners on the team.
In the scenario you described above during a men's face-off - the wing player who picks up the ball is credited with a gb, correct? So they are credited with something, in the women's game it's a draw control. I don't fully understand the point of crediting the face-off win separately from who actually gains possession, but I'm sure there's a reason for it. Perhaps it's because during the men's face-off you aren't allowed to touch the ball so the statistic of a FO win has it's own value because it shows how much success a FO man has beating an opponent to the ball? They were able to "possess it" vs the draw where both players start out with equal "possession" and are both placing force on the ball until it is up in the air. I have no idea, I'm just thinking out loud. All I know is that from my experience and IMO, any ball that is outside of a stick is a 50/50 ball and whoever gains possession of it should be credited.