Sensible Gun Safety

[get it to x]

An example of a good guy with a gun, except it was a gal. Dude shows up at a party with an AR-15 and starts shooting, but not for long. She appears to have been well trained.

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavl ... t-n2607884

[Typical Lax Dad]

An example of a good guy with a gun, except it was a gal. Dude shows up at a party with an AR-15 and starts shooting, but not for long. She appears to have been well trained.

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavl ... t-n2607884

She should become an elementary school teacher.

[CU88]

Blame the door!
Blame the teachers!
Blame the kids!
Blame the video games!
Blame the Liberals!


Students in the room with the gunman called 911 many times.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/27/us/t ... rence.html

Student calls to 911:
12:03—whispered she's in room 112
12:10—said multiple dead
12:13—called again
12:16—says 8-9 students alive
12:19—student calls from room 111
12:21—3 shots heard on call
12:36—another call
12:43—asks for police
12:47—asks for police

[Seacoaster(1)]

Kid brought 58 magazines.

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1530 ... ePu7wqAAAA

And getittox wants to talk about some woman shooting back. Maybe the rest of us -- you know, citizens with constitutional and civil rights -- don't want to bring weapons, just in case, to the supermarket, the movies, the synagogue, the softball game, the workplace.

[get it to x]

Kid brought 58 magazines.

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1530 ... ePu7wqAAAA

And getittox wants to talk about some woman shooting back. Maybe the rest of us -- you know, citizens with constitutional and civil rights -- don't want to bring weapons, just in case, to the supermarket, the movies, the synagogue, the softball game, the workplace.

I live in a constitutional carry state and I never see anyone with a sidearm anywhere. They may have it concealed or in their glove compartment. I only posted the article because CU88 posted the following:

"All this "good guy with a gun" nonsense is over.

19 "good guys with guns" stood outside a door and listened to little kids beg for their lives before being cut to ribbons with bullets."

Don't conflate a situation commander's terrible judgement with a citizen taking down a threat.

[Peter Brown]

Kid brought 58 magazines.

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1530 ... ePu7wqAAAA

And getittox wants to talk about some woman shooting back. Maybe the rest of us -- you know, citizens with constitutional and civil rights -- don't want to bring weapons, just in case, to the supermarket, the movies, the synagogue, the softball game, the workplace.

I live in a constitutional carry state and I never see anyone with a sidearm anywhere. They may have it concealed or in their glove compartment. I only posted the article because CU88 posted the following:

"All this "good guy with a gun" nonsense is over.

19 "good guys with guns" stood outside a door and listened to little kids beg for their lives before being cut to ribbons with bullets."

Don't conflate a situation commander's terrible judgement with a citizen taking down a threat.

I’m not jumping (yet) on the ‘Uvalde police are worthless’ bandwagon, but their press conferences are unmitigated disasters. The guy handling the conference today was hard of hearing, he licked his lips every second, he didn’t seem to know pretty much any relevant detail, and he cried three times. Jeeebus. Disastrous.

I have no idea if what’s being reported is accurate or not, but these press conferences lead me to believe the police were total buffoons. I don’t think they were scared so much as incompetent. What’s happening with their press conferences is they look both scared and incompetent. And when our lib media sense a weak opponent on the other side of the political divide, as here, they are ruthless like pack animals.

Abbott has to own this cluster-eff. Desantis would’ve fired anyone mangling things like this, yesterday. Poor leadership on Abbott’s part.

[youthathletics]

I’m not jumping (yet) on the ‘Uvalde police are worthless’ bandwagon, but their press conferences are unmitigated disasters. The guy handling the conference today was hard of hearing, he licked his lips every second, he didn’t seem to know pretty much any relevant detail, and he cried three times. Jeeebus. Disastrous.

I have no idea if what’s being reported is accurate or not, but these press conferences lead me to believe the police were total buffoons. I don’t think they were scared so much as incompetent. What’s happening with their press conferences is they look both scared and incompetent. And when our lib media sense a weak opponent on the other side of the political divide, as here, they are ruthless like pack animals.

Abbott has to own this cluster-eff. Desantis would’ve fired anyone mangling things like this, yesterday. Poor leadership on Abbott’s part.

I just can not help thinking that they where scared to death of making "a wrong move", so much so, that they made no move.....frozen with indecision, which is a decision...just the wrong one.

That part that is unclear to me, is when did the shooter begin firing the gun at the students/teachers. Was it the gunfire the police claim was directed at them or was that when the shooter did the unthinkable or both....around 11:44 when they arrived then minutes later?

So that do nothing 40-50 minutes may have been just a surrounding of the hallway and exterior so he could not exit the classroom.

[MDlaxfan76]

https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/26/world/us ... index.html

CNN is just spinning

We have a 2nd amendment given to this nation by our founding fathers. I'm certain that came about for a good reason. Who knows, maybe they were bored that day and came up with it as filler until they figured out the 3rd amendment?? Maybe the 2nd was nothing more than a belated April Fools prank?

Who on this board, other than you and maybe Peter (fine company to be in, eh) keeps repeating that the 2nd Amendment should be eliminated? Who you like this weekend?

When or where did I say the 2nd was under threat from anyone or anything? I'm saying to ban handguns and semi automatic weapons you first have to address the right to keep and bear arms. No one on this forum yet had explained how to address this little conundrum.

Nope, I did.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The purpose of this "right of the people to keep and bear arms" is clearly stated; "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of the State"...the State, BTW, refers to the national union, not any specific or several states....it's important to the security of the country to have a well regulated Militia...in the era of the founding, there was no standing army, so being able to call up people to service was important, and to have them well "regulated" meant that they were well equipped and trained and organizable. Now, since then, we've addressed this need with our Reserves system, which enables actual well armed, equipped, trained "militia" to be ready for such action.

thus, far less need for the general citizenry...that said, we've decided as a country to recognize people's rights to have guns...to some extent...and we've also litigated and decided (SCOTUS) that this 'right" may be limited in the interests of public good. For instance, machine guns are not allowed for general citizen use and ownership. As well as all sorts of restrictions on how and where guns may be used. That alone, is sufficient precedent for any number of restrictions contemplated today.

So, to me, this 2nd amendment argument really has no actual bearing. The serious questions are simply what restrictions have made sense.

I've proposed that only certain kinds of weapons should be kept in homes, they should only be kept there by those licensed and trained to have such weapons, storage requirements, etc. Hunting being one such permitted, licensed usage. Other sorts of weapons such as handguns and semi and fully automatic weapons should not be in the home, rather they can be kept in regulated, licensed gun ranges and storage, useful for sport in such settings, and come the apocalypse, retrievable as necessary.

I read your input and agree you have some good points. Nowhere does the 2nd, no matter how you interpret well regulated, limits gun owners to only certain type of weapons. So your turning well regulated into something out government does very well.. over regulating. I'm not a fan of AR 15 type weapons. I understand why so many people prefer them as their home defence weapon of choice. The problem is since there are untold millions of these weapons already in American homes trying to regulate them now is more than problematic it is impossible. I agree with you that these weapo ns should be more regulated. The sticking point is what weapons the average citizen determine wants to keep and bear. I don't think they want or need the government making that choice for them. I own 2 rifles. My M1 carbine is sentimental to me. It is the same type of rifle my dad carried through France, Belgium and Germany. On rare occasions I take it out plinking. My other weapon for home defense would get the MD lax seal of approval, a single barrel 410 shotgun. It is my last line of defense if someone ever breaks into my home. I hope everyday that I never need it. I understand your position and I respect it. I wish the founding fathers had not left so much ambiguity built into the 2nd. Trying to define a list of semi automatic weapons has proven almost impossible. You need look no further than the SAFE ACT that king Andy rammed through in NYS. They became totally befuddled about how a certain rifle looks instead of understanding the dynamics and lethality of all of these 5.56 weapons. You want to ban them all and confiscate them from law abiding citizens good luck with that. I'm sure you understand just how impossible your solution is in realville USA. These people have been afraid for years that the government is coming for their guns you just verified all of their concerns by saying yeah.. the government SHOULD be coming for your guns.

You are misunderstanding and/or misrepresenting what I am saying.

No, I'm not relying on the words "well-regulated" to say that guns can be regulated. I'm saying that the purpose intended by the founders in having citizens have arms was to support a "well regulated Militia"...not for use against other citizens or the constitutional government itself, but rather for the "security of a free State". Protection of the country. In a "well regulated Militia". That's the purpose that the founders established. The right to have arms is dependent upon that purpose.

And, you are quite incorrect: SCOTUS has multiple times decided, including jurists like Scalia, that the Constitution allows for restrictions on the type of guns allowed and other such restrictions. Restrictions are therefore "constitutional'.

Yes, your shotgun would be acceptable in my own recommended set of restrictions. I'd be fine, however, if you and I were required to keep ours in a locked closet, cabinet, gun safe, etc such that access was limited to the licensed adults. I'm fine with any such being licensed, including required gun safety courses.

You can keep your M1 at a licensed, regulated gun range, gun safety storage unit, in my recommended regulatory regime.

Background checks on all gun transfers...red flag laws, all would be useful in my regulatory system, but far less necessary given the basic restrictions on where certain types of guns can be kept and used.

Yes, it would take time and patience to get this implemented.

I understand your point and I don't think I'm misrepresenting what you mean at all. It will be a cold day in hell before I ever let my M1 carbine to be stored in a government run safe place. That is a prime example of what over regulation gets you. I'm very lucky in the fact my M1 carbine was a gift from my brother. It is not registered in any government data base. The government can't regulate or confiscate something they don't even know exists. My M1 is something I own that reminds me of my dad and how much he suffered for this country. You think I don't have a right to own that weapon I will politely as I can tell you to go to hell. My 410 is located in a spot where I can get to it in 5 seconds if someone ever tries to break into my house. It would not do me much effing good if it was locked in a safe denying me immediate access to it. My wife knows where it is and understands the gameplan if it is ever needed. My 410 is the insurance policy I hope I will never need.

Yup, in my regulatory regime, you'd need to have gun safety course license to have such weapons. I'd be ok (as a regulator) in an 'antique' gun having its firing mechanism removed, and stored in a gun safe. Or in a private, but licensed, regulated gun range if you want to use it in such an environment.

I don't think we need to let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

BTW, on your safety issues, I know that you no longer have kids in the house...that's the most important reason to keep weapons in a safe. But it's also important for there to be at least some delay between wanting a weapon and using it, for a number of reason, including domestic issues...though I dunno that a gun safe really is much of a brake on that...but for safety versus intruders, I think there are layers of safety measures that should be in place prior to any reliance on a gun. A gun should never be used in surprise or panic, it should be only resorted to when no other measure can work and only when calm...else the wrong person gets shot.

Again, take a gun safety course...

I already passed my gun safety course way back in 1979. It was called US Army basic training and the program was laid out over 4 months at Ft Benning Georgia. I graduated with an expert rating on the M16 rifle. I understand the 5.56 weapon better than you or most of the posters on this forum. I have put more 5.56 rounds down range than I care to remember. I respect it enough to understand why most rank amateur owners of the rifle have zero comprehension how dangerous and lethal the weapon is. That is why a mandatory safety course for the weapon should be mandatory. You can't get a driver's license today without passing a basic course in safe driving. The same should be true for owning a firearm. My oldest son, who is a federal law enforcement agent owns several 5.56 rifles that he has very pricey laser dot scopes that cost him as much as the rifles. We learned advanced marksmanship with constant practice on the rifle range. Today, all you need to do is point the red dot on the target and shoot..I'm not sure where I'm going with this except to say that technology is replacing basic marksmanship.

I, too, am 'grandfathered', but I would not be at all opposed to needing every 10 years or so needing to take a refresher course. First time in person, subsequent times online. Yes, essential for handling an extremely dangerous weapon. But I also think that being familiar with the best practices for keeping a gun safe and secure when not in use is also very helpful.

[Kismet]

Kid brought 58 magazines.

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1530 ... ePu7wqAAAA

And getittox wants to talk about some woman shooting back. Maybe the rest of us -- you know, citizens with constitutional and civil rights -- don't want to bring weapons, just in case, to the supermarket, the movies, the synagogue, the softball game, the workplace.

I live in a constitutional carry state and I never see anyone with a sidearm anywhere. They may have it concealed or in their glove compartment. I only posted the article because CU88 posted the following:

"All this "good guy with a gun" nonsense is over.

19 "good guys with guns" stood outside a door and listened to little kids beg for their lives before being cut to ribbons with bullets."

Don't conflate a situation commander's terrible judgement with a citizen taking down a threat.

Maybe it is relevant that this 18YO shooter, after buying two AR-15 type rifles, also purchased 1700 rounds of ammunition without anybody asking a question. Who needs that amount of ammunition?

[Typical Lax Dad]

I’m not jumping (yet) on the ‘Uvalde police are worthless’ bandwagon, but their press conferences are unmitigated disasters. The guy handling the conference today was hard of hearing, he licked his lips every second, he didn’t seem to know pretty much any relevant detail, and he cried three times. Jeeebus. Disastrous.

I have no idea if what’s being reported is accurate or not, but these press conferences lead me to believe the police were total buffoons. I don’t think they were scared so much as incompetent. What’s happening with their press conferences is they look both scared and incompetent. And when our lib media sense a weak opponent on the other side of the political divide, as here, they are ruthless like pack animals.

Abbott has to own this cluster-eff. Desantis would’ve fired anyone mangling things like this, yesterday. Poor leadership on Abbott’s part.

I just can not help thinking that they where scared to death of making "a wrong move", so much so, that they made no move.....frozen with indecision, which is a decision...just the wrong one.

That part that is unclear to me, is when did the shooter begin firing the gun at the students/teachers. Was it the gunfire the police claim was directed at them or was that when the shooter did the unthinkable or both....around 11:44 when they arrived then minutes later?

So that do nothing 40-50 minutes may have been just a surrounding of the hallway and exterior so he could not exit the classroom.

Usually you are a police should shoot because they are scared kind of guy.

[youthathletics]

I’m not jumping (yet) on the ‘Uvalde police are worthless’ bandwagon, but their press conferences are unmitigated disasters. The guy handling the conference today was hard of hearing, he licked his lips every second, he didn’t seem to know pretty much any relevant detail, and he cried three times. Jeeebus. Disastrous.

I have no idea if what’s being reported is accurate or not, but these press conferences lead me to believe the police were total buffoons. I don’t think they were scared so much as incompetent. What’s happening with their press conferences is they look both scared and incompetent. And when our lib media sense a weak opponent on the other side of the political divide, as here, they are ruthless like pack animals.

Abbott has to own this cluster-eff. Desantis would’ve fired anyone mangling things like this, yesterday. Poor leadership on Abbott’s part.

I just can not help thinking that they where scared to death of making "a wrong move", so much so, that they made no move.....frozen with indecision, which is a decision...just the wrong one.

That part that is unclear to me, is when did the shooter begin firing the gun at the students/teachers. Was it the gunfire the police claim was directed at them or was that when the shooter did the unthinkable or both....around 11:44 when they arrived then minutes later?

So that do nothing 40-50 minutes may have been just a surrounding of the hallway and exterior so he could not exit the classroom.

Usually you are a police should shoot because they are scared kind of guy.

Scared, as in more continued public scrutiny, if matters went worse, b/c they just they rushed in like keystone cops.

[MDlaxfan76]

I’m not jumping (yet) on the ‘Uvalde police are worthless’ bandwagon, but their press conferences are unmitigated disasters. The guy handling the conference today was hard of hearing, he licked his lips every second, he didn’t seem to know pretty much any relevant detail, and he cried three times. Jeeebus. Disastrous.

I have no idea if what’s being reported is accurate or not, but these press conferences lead me to believe the police were total buffoons. I don’t think they were scared so much as incompetent. What’s happening with their press conferences is they look both scared and incompetent. And when our lib media sense a weak opponent on the other side of the political divide, as here, they are ruthless like pack animals.

Abbott has to own this cluster-eff. Desantis would’ve fired anyone mangling things like this, yesterday. Poor leadership on Abbott’s part.

I just can not help thinking that they where scared to death of making "a wrong move", so much so, that they made no move.....frozen with indecision, which is a decision...just the wrong one.

That part that is unclear to me, is when did the shooter begin firing the gun at the students/teachers. Was it the gunfire the police claim was directed at them or was that when the shooter did the unthinkable or both....around 11:44 when they arrived then minutes later?

So that do nothing 40-50 minutes may have been just a surrounding of the hallway and exterior so he could not exit the classroom.

I'm trying to give as much benefit of the doubt as I can to the police on the ground, but I'd agree with Petey (!) that, at a very minimum, the messaging has been abysmal both by the police representatives and by Abbott. Atrocious.

On the substance, it may well prove to be worse. The timeline on kids' calls, if accurate, is really bad...so, too, are deaths in multiple classrooms.

But there's still so much 'fog' about what went down and why, that being definitive still feels premature.

What we do know is that, for the past 2 decades, police have been trained to immediately breach until conclusion in such situations, not the way they did it pre-Columbine. That's the protocol, not surround and negotiate, nor to retreat if the assailant is heavily armed. They know this.

Ugh.

[Typical Lax Dad]

I’m not jumping (yet) on the ‘Uvalde police are worthless’ bandwagon, but their press conferences are unmitigated disasters. The guy handling the conference today was hard of hearing, he licked his lips every second, he didn’t seem to know pretty much any relevant detail, and he cried three times. Jeeebus. Disastrous.

I have no idea if what’s being reported is accurate or not, but these press conferences lead me to believe the police were total buffoons. I don’t think they were scared so much as incompetent. What’s happening with their press conferences is they look both scared and incompetent. And when our lib media sense a weak opponent on the other side of the political divide, as here, they are ruthless like pack animals.

Abbott has to own this cluster-eff. Desantis would’ve fired anyone mangling things like this, yesterday. Poor leadership on Abbott’s part.

I just can not help thinking that they where scared to death of making "a wrong move", so much so, that they made no move.....frozen with indecision, which is a decision...just the wrong one.

That part that is unclear to me, is when did the shooter begin firing the gun at the students/teachers. Was it the gunfire the police claim was directed at them or was that when the shooter did the unthinkable or both....around 11:44 when they arrived then minutes later?

So that do nothing 40-50 minutes may have been just a surrounding of the hallway and exterior so he could not exit the classroom.

Usually you are a police should shoot because they are scared kind of guy.

Scared, as in more continued public scrutiny, if matters went worse, b/c they just they rushed in like keystone cops.

maybe the shooter should have acted “big and bad”

[youthathletics]

I’m not jumping (yet) on the ‘Uvalde police are worthless’ bandwagon, but their press conferences are unmitigated disasters. The guy handling the conference today was hard of hearing, he licked his lips every second, he didn’t seem to know pretty much any relevant detail, and he cried three times. Jeeebus. Disastrous.

I have no idea if what’s being reported is accurate or not, but these press conferences lead me to believe the police were total buffoons. I don’t think they were scared so much as incompetent. What’s happening with their press conferences is they look both scared and incompetent. And when our lib media sense a weak opponent on the other side of the political divide, as here, they are ruthless like pack animals.

Abbott has to own this cluster-eff. Desantis would’ve fired anyone mangling things like this, yesterday. Poor leadership on Abbott’s part.

I just can not help thinking that they where scared to death of making "a wrong move", so much so, that they made no move.....frozen with indecision, which is a decision...just the wrong one.

That part that is unclear to me, is when did the shooter begin firing the gun at the students/teachers. Was it the gunfire the police claim was directed at them or was that when the shooter did the unthinkable or both....around 11:44 when they arrived then minutes later?

So that do nothing 40-50 minutes may have been just a surrounding of the hallway and exterior so he could not exit the classroom.

Usually you are a police should shoot because they are scared kind of guy.

Scared, as in more continued public scrutiny, if matters went worse, b/c they just they rushed in like keystone cops.

maybe the shooter should have acted “big and bad”

[youthathletics]

I’m not jumping (yet) on the ‘Uvalde police are worthless’ bandwagon, but their press conferences are unmitigated disasters. The guy handling the conference today was hard of hearing, he licked his lips every second, he didn’t seem to know pretty much any relevant detail, and he cried three times. Jeeebus. Disastrous.

I have no idea if what’s being reported is accurate or not, but these press conferences lead me to believe the police were total buffoons. I don’t think they were scared so much as incompetent. What’s happening with their press conferences is they look both scared and incompetent. And when our lib media sense a weak opponent on the other side of the political divide, as here, they are ruthless like pack animals.

Abbott has to own this cluster-eff. Desantis would’ve fired anyone mangling things like this, yesterday. Poor leadership on Abbott’s part.

I just can not help thinking that they where scared to death of making "a wrong move", so much so, that they made no move.....frozen with indecision, which is a decision...just the wrong one.

That part that is unclear to me, is when did the shooter begin firing the gun at the students/teachers. Was it the gunfire the police claim was directed at them or was that when the shooter did the unthinkable or both....around 11:44 when they arrived then minutes later?

So that do nothing 40-50 minutes may have been just a surrounding of the hallway and exterior so he could not exit the classroom.

I'm trying to give as much benefit of the doubt as I can to the police on the ground, but I'd agree with Petey (!) that, at a very minimum, the messaging has been abysmal both by the police representatives and by Abbott. Atrocious.

On the substance, it may well prove to be worse. The timeline on kids' calls, if accurate, is really bad...so, too, are deaths in multiple classrooms.

But there's still so much 'fog' about what went down and why, that being definitive still feels premature.

What we do know is that, for the past 2 decades, police have been trained to immediately breach until conclusion in such situations, not the way they did it pre-Columbine. That's the protocol, not surround and negotiate, nor to retreat if the assailant is heavily armed. They know this.

Ugh.

Fog is a good analogy. You'd certainly have to assume they've done this training plenty. But they also know they have a bullseye on their head by the gunman and a bullseye on their back by the general public. The last couple years have certainly taught us that.

And when you get in to the weeds. They had no idea if this was an inside job b/c that door should never have been propped. My wife is a school teacher and they often sweep the halls and reminded quite often to NEVER prop doors...its procedure to not do so.

[MDlaxfan76]

I’m not jumping (yet) on the ‘Uvalde police are worthless’ bandwagon, but their press conferences are unmitigated disasters. The guy handling the conference today was hard of hearing, he licked his lips every second, he didn’t seem to know pretty much any relevant detail, and he cried three times. Jeeebus. Disastrous.

I have no idea if what’s being reported is accurate or not, but these press conferences lead me to believe the police were total buffoons. I don’t think they were scared so much as incompetent. What’s happening with their press conferences is they look both scared and incompetent. And when our lib media sense a weak opponent on the other side of the political divide, as here, they are ruthless like pack animals.

Abbott has to own this cluster-eff. Desantis would’ve fired anyone mangling things like this, yesterday. Poor leadership on Abbott’s part.

I just can not help thinking that they where scared to death of making "a wrong move", so much so, that they made no move.....frozen with indecision, which is a decision...just the wrong one.

That part that is unclear to me, is when did the shooter begin firing the gun at the students/teachers. Was it the gunfire the police claim was directed at them or was that when the shooter did the unthinkable or both....around 11:44 when they arrived then minutes later?

So that do nothing 40-50 minutes may have been just a surrounding of the hallway and exterior so he could not exit the classroom.

I'm trying to give as much benefit of the doubt as I can to the police on the ground, but I'd agree with Petey (!) that, at a very minimum, the messaging has been abysmal both by the police representatives and by Abbott. Atrocious.

On the substance, it may well prove to be worse. The timeline on kids' calls, if accurate, is really bad...so, too, are deaths in multiple classrooms.

But there's still so much 'fog' about what went down and why, that being definitive still feels premature.

What we do know is that, for the past 2 decades, police have been trained to immediately breach until conclusion in such situations, not the way they did it pre-Columbine. That's the protocol, not surround and negotiate, nor to retreat if the assailant is heavily armed. They know this.

Ugh.

Fog is a good analogy. You'd certainly have to assume they've done this training plenty. But they also know they have a bullseye on their head by the gunman and a bullseye on their back by the general public. The last couple years have certainly taught us that.

And when you get in to the weeds. They had no idea if this was an inside job b/c that door should never have been propped. My wife is a school teacher and they often sweep the halls and reminded quite often to NEVER prop doors...its procedure to not do so.

Yup, fog.

But every tom, dick, and sally knows the protocol is to go in hard right away and keep going until you take down the assailant. They aren't going to negotiate, they're going to kill. It's not a bank robber hostage situation, it's a mass murder happening in real time.

They knew that, for sure.

"inside job" because a 'door was open"...even if they knew that the door had been open (which they very likely didn't), it would have made no difference, one assailant or two or more, the protocol's the same, breach and keep going until all secure. No delay.

Listen, if anything was known other than a young man with an AR-15 was inside, they would/should have known that he'd already shot his grandmother, there already had been a chase, that he'd entered the school...no way that they shouldn't have followed protocol and breached with whatever they had. No, you don't wait for SWAT...and SWAT, which they actually have, wasn't who eventually went in!

Man, I hope there's some better explanation for all this other than cowardice and/or incompetence in command, but it's not looking good.

I think the stuff about being afraid of public scrutiny is ridiculous...there's a protocol that's been trained; follow it. Don't make up excuses why not...(not that you are doing so).

[Typical Lax Dad]

I’m not jumping (yet) on the ‘Uvalde police are worthless’ bandwagon, but their press conferences are unmitigated disasters. The guy handling the conference today was hard of hearing, he licked his lips every second, he didn’t seem to know pretty much any relevant detail, and he cried three times. Jeeebus. Disastrous.

I have no idea if what’s being reported is accurate or not, but these press conferences lead me to believe the police were total buffoons. I don’t think they were scared so much as incompetent. What’s happening with their press conferences is they look both scared and incompetent. And when our lib media sense a weak opponent on the other side of the political divide, as here, they are ruthless like pack animals.

Abbott has to own this cluster-eff. Desantis would’ve fired anyone mangling things like this, yesterday. Poor leadership on Abbott’s part.

I just can not help thinking that they where scared to death of making "a wrong move", so much so, that they made no move.....frozen with indecision, which is a decision...just the wrong one.

That part that is unclear to me, is when did the shooter begin firing the gun at the students/teachers. Was it the gunfire the police claim was directed at them or was that when the shooter did the unthinkable or both....around 11:44 when they arrived then minutes later?

So that do nothing 40-50 minutes may have been just a surrounding of the hallway and exterior so he could not exit the classroom.

Usually you are a police should shoot because they are scared kind of guy.

Scared, as in more continued public scrutiny, if matters went worse, b/c they just they rushed in like keystone cops.

maybe the shooter should have acted “big and bad”

Is right….who you like tomorrow?

[Typical Lax Dad]

I’m not jumping (yet) on the ‘Uvalde police are worthless’ bandwagon, but their press conferences are unmitigated disasters. The guy handling the conference today was hard of hearing, he licked his lips every second, he didn’t seem to know pretty much any relevant detail, and he cried three times. Jeeebus. Disastrous.

I have no idea if what’s being reported is accurate or not, but these press conferences lead me to believe the police were total buffoons. I don’t think they were scared so much as incompetent. What’s happening with their press conferences is they look both scared and incompetent. And when our lib media sense a weak opponent on the other side of the political divide, as here, they are ruthless like pack animals.

Abbott has to own this cluster-eff. Desantis would’ve fired anyone mangling things like this, yesterday. Poor leadership on Abbott’s part.

I just can not help thinking that they where scared to death of making "a wrong move", so much so, that they made no move.....frozen with indecision, which is a decision...just the wrong one.

That part that is unclear to me, is when did the shooter begin firing the gun at the students/teachers. Was it the gunfire the police claim was directed at them or was that when the shooter did the unthinkable or both....around 11:44 when they arrived then minutes later?

So that do nothing 40-50 minutes may have been just a surrounding of the hallway and exterior so he could not exit the classroom.

I'm trying to give as much benefit of the doubt as I can to the police on the ground, but I'd agree with Petey (!) that, at a very minimum, the messaging has been abysmal both by the police representatives and by Abbott. Atrocious.

On the substance, it may well prove to be worse. The timeline on kids' calls, if accurate, is really bad...so, too, are deaths in multiple classrooms.

But there's still so much 'fog' about what went down and why, that being definitive still feels premature.

What we do know is that, for the past 2 decades, police have been trained to immediately breach until conclusion in such situations, not the way they did it pre-Columbine. That's the protocol, not surround and negotiate, nor to retreat if the assailant is heavily armed. They know this.

Ugh.

Fog is a good analogy. You'd certainly have to assume they've done this training plenty. But they also know they have a bullseye on their head by the gunman and a bullseye on their back by the general public. The last couple years have certainly taught us that.

And when you get in to the weeds. They had no idea if this was an inside job b/c that door should never have been propped. My wife is a school teacher and they often sweep the halls and reminded quite often to NEVER prop doors...its procedure to not do so.

In the last couple of years, name mass shooting situations where the police shot the bad guy and got grief? Particularly since we have been “taught” about it? Should be plenty? Not sure if George Floyd and the guy sleeping at KFC with a bucket of chicken in his lap counts….

[CU88]

A child at Robb Elementary repeatedly called 911 during the hour the gunman was inside, per press briefing just now.

Gunshots could be heard over the line.

"Please send the police now," the child asked.

[get it to x]

I’m not jumping (yet) on the ‘Uvalde police are worthless’ bandwagon, but their press conferences are unmitigated disasters. The guy handling the conference today was hard of hearing, he licked his lips every second, he didn’t seem to know pretty much any relevant detail, and he cried three times. Jeeebus. Disastrous.

I have no idea if what’s being reported is accurate or not, but these press conferences lead me to believe the police were total buffoons. I don’t think they were scared so much as incompetent. What’s happening with their press conferences is they look both scared and incompetent. And when our lib media sense a weak opponent on the other side of the political divide, as here, they are ruthless like pack animals.

Abbott has to own this cluster-eff. Desantis would’ve fired anyone mangling things like this, yesterday. Poor leadership on Abbott’s part.

I just can not help thinking that they where scared to death of making "a wrong move", so much so, that they made no move.....frozen with indecision, which is a decision...just the wrong one.

That part that is unclear to me, is when did the shooter begin firing the gun at the students/teachers. Was it the gunfire the police claim was directed at them or was that when the shooter did the unthinkable or both....around 11:44 when they arrived then minutes later?

So that do nothing 40-50 minutes may have been just a surrounding of the hallway and exterior so he could not exit the classroom.

I'm trying to give as much benefit of the doubt as I can to the police on the ground, but I'd agree with Petey (!) that, at a very minimum, the messaging has been abysmal both by the police representatives and by Abbott. Atrocious.

On the substance, it may well prove to be worse. The timeline on kids' calls, if accurate, is really bad...so, too, are deaths in multiple classrooms.

But there's still so much 'fog' about what went down and why, that being definitive still feels premature.

What we do know is that, for the past 2 decades, police have been trained to immediately breach until conclusion in such situations, not the way they did it pre-Columbine. That's the protocol, not surround and negotiate, nor to retreat if the assailant is heavily armed. They know this.

Ugh.

Fog is a good analogy. You'd certainly have to assume they've done this training plenty. But they also know they have a bullseye on their head by the gunman and a bullseye on their back by the general public. The last couple years have certainly taught us that.

And when you get in to the weeds. They had no idea if this was an inside job b/c that door should never have been propped. My wife is a school teacher and they often sweep the halls and reminded quite often to NEVER prop doors...its procedure to not do so.

Yup, fog.

But every tom, dick, and sally knows the protocol is to go in hard right away and keep going until you take down the assailant. They aren't going to negotiate, they're going to kill. It's not a bank robber hostage situation, it's a mass murder happening in real time.

They knew that, for sure.

"inside job" because a 'door was open"...even if they knew that the door had been open (which they very likely didn't), it would have made no difference, one assailant or two or more, the protocol's the same, breach and keep going until all secure. No delay.

Listen, if anything was known other than a young man with an AR-15 was inside, they would/should have known that he'd already shot his grandmother, there already had been a chase, that he'd entered the school...no way that they shouldn't have followed protocol and breached with whatever they had. No, you don't wait for SWAT...and SWAT, which they actually have, wasn't who eventually went in!

Man, I hope there's some better explanation for all this other than cowardice and/or incompetence in command, but it's not looking good.

I think the stuff about being afraid of public scrutiny is ridiculous...there's a protocol that's been trained; follow it. Don't make up excuses why not...(not that you are doing so).

+100 - Expect many lawsuits.