Sensible Gun Safety

[Matnum PI]

I will say you are certainly correct that this will fall out of the public eye sooner rather than later. Many are unfortunately becoming desensitized to it. Then you have people (some here) saying it's too early to talk about politics, or it's political grandstanding to demand action. And to them I say, is it still too early to talk about action in response to Sandy Hook? Or Parkland? Or Las Vegas?

I'm all for everything and anything anyone is doing to amend this issue. With this said, the root causes of this issue interest me more than any others. And, in terms of root causes, I think one would be hard-pressed not to admit that guns and gun violence is part of American culture. I'm not saying that video games caused this horrible occurrence, these horrible occurrences. I am saying that our national obsession with guns and gun violence plays no small role in the amount of people killed by guns. That, for whatever reason, gun violence is explicitly tied into the American DNA.

[JoeMauer89]

If you want/need a gun, prove that you can handle a gun. Japan's process for buying a gun requires an interview with the police about why you need a gun, a psych evaluation, 3 different permits and a background check that includes interviews of family and neighbors.

Every country has pluses and minuses. America isn’t Japan and vice versa. Their culture is very different than ours. It’s of zero help contrasting gun laws there to here.

^^^ comedian!

Sounds like a gored ox to me!

Man, you are incapable of self-awareness...'

Joe

... here you go Joe. An excuse that will resonate with your psyche.

Take a break from the site dude, you are losing your mind. When did I ever give you any indication that I watch, listen, or follow anything that Tucker Carlson has to say?? Your level of political anger is very sad. More to life than politics. Read a book, go play golf or tennis, etc. You will be much happier for it.

Joe

[cradleandshoot]

The weird thing is I agree with Robert on some of his ideas. The difficult thing when you listen to that Twitter speech is he seems disingenuous, mildly performative...

Who cares? He could be waving his arms and slapping cymbals between his knees and I wouldn't care. The point is, Now is the time. Now.

For what, exactly? It helps if you reveal what steps you’re seeking.

‘Gun control’ is complicated.

As a conservative, I’d support (I support) defined red flag laws (not “loosely” defined red flag laws, because otherwise anyone could deny anyone their right to self defense with any flimsy accusation), no guns til 21 (as well as voting), no semi or autos til 30, violent felons no guns at all, massive sweeps of known illegal gun activity (mostly cities like Baltimore), and universal background checks at all points of sale excepting shotguns.

And of course the biggie, which is the hardest, there has to be some focus on young introverted males who evidence disturbing behavior like this kid and all the others. Not sure what to do here but it’s clearly the #1 issue.

... what a troll? What bullsh*t?

a little less coffee in the morning might go a long way for you

just sayin’

.. don't drink coffee or any other caffeine delivery solution. Not deflected by bulls*t either.

No wonder you aren't, you spew so much of it on a daily basis!!

Joe

... must be goring your ox eh snowflake.

Not in the slightest. It's just par for the course with you. Find a hobby, get some fresh air. It will do wonders for you. More to life than the FLP Politics Thread!

Joe

Good advice for yourself.

You entered this discussion with a personal insult of a specific poster.

MD,

What's your point? If it's an issue the moderator will take it up with me. I'm not going to give you what you want to hear, as much as that bothers you. JHU72 went off the deep end a LONG time ago. We can all agree that guns are the issue here. But, for anyone in this thread to admit that they are the ONLY root cause of this mass school shooting epidemic, they have their head buried DEEP in the sand. We also have a Mental Health epidemic in this country, that plays a role into the mass shooting epidemic whether you like to admit it or not. We should be passing as much legislature as we can to make guns harder to obtain, that's a given. But that alone won't solve the problem. If you disagree with that, you are only kidding yourself! That enough substance for you Chucky?

Joe

Very good post. +1

... ass kissing post -1

Spoken by a Commie Lib who knows all about ass kissing. The man who keeps the folks at Chapstick in the black...

[jhu72]

Daniel Defense - more republiCON cowards.

[cradleandshoot]

If you want/need a gun, prove that you can handle a gun. Japan's process for buying a gun requires an interview with the police about why you need a gun, a psych evaluation, 3 different permits and a background check that includes interviews of family and neighbors.

Every country has pluses and minuses. America isn’t Japan and vice versa. Their culture is very different than ours. It’s of zero help contrasting gun laws there to here.

^^^ comedian!

Sounds like a gored ox to me!

Man, you are incapable of self-awareness...'

Joe

... here you go Joe. An excuse that will resonate with your psyche.

Take a break from the site dude, you are losing your mind. When did I ever give you any indication that I watch, listen, or follow anything that Tucker Carlson has to say?? Your level of political anger is very sad. More to life than politics. Read a book, go play golf or tennis, etc. You will be much happier for it.

Joe

That is why the good doctor deserves the moniker of the dumbest smart guy on this forum. An honor he works hard to earn every day.

[JoeMauer89]

If you want/need a gun, prove that you can handle a gun. Japan's process for buying a gun requires an interview with the police about why you need a gun, a psych evaluation, 3 different permits and a background check that includes interviews of family and neighbors.

Every country has pluses and minuses. America isn’t Japan and vice versa. Their culture is very different than ours. It’s of zero help contrasting gun laws there to here.

^^^ comedian!

Sounds like a gored ox to me!

Man, you are incapable of self-awareness...'

Joe

... here you go Joe. An excuse that will resonate with your psyche.

Take a break from the site dude, you are losing your mind. When did I ever give you any indication that I watch, listen, or follow anything that Tucker Carlson has to say?? Your level of political anger is very sad. More to life than politics. Read a book, go play golf or tennis, etc. You will be much happier for it.

Joe

That is why the good doctor deserves the moniker of the dumbest smart guy on this forum. An honor he works hard to earn every day.

1000% agreed. He manages to double and triple-down on it on a daily basis! Truly amazing!!

Joe

[jhu72]

If you want/need a gun, prove that you can handle a gun. Japan's process for buying a gun requires an interview with the police about why you need a gun, a psych evaluation, 3 different permits and a background check that includes interviews of family and neighbors.

Every country has pluses and minuses. America isn’t Japan and vice versa. Their culture is very different than ours. It’s of zero help contrasting gun laws there to here.

^^^ comedian!

Sounds like a gored ox to me!

Man, you are incapable of self-awareness...'

Joe

... here you go Joe. An excuse that will resonate with your psyche.

Take a break from the site dude, you are losing your mind. When did I ever give you any indication that I watch, listen, or follow anything that Tucker Carlson has to say?? Your level of political anger is very sad. More to life than politics. Read a book, go play golf or tennis, etc. You will be much happier for it.

Joe

... my mind is just fine Karen. Carlson is proposing COVID as an excuse.

[jhu72]

If you want/need a gun, prove that you can handle a gun. Japan's process for buying a gun requires an interview with the police about why you need a gun, a psych evaluation, 3 different permits and a background check that includes interviews of family and neighbors.

Every country has pluses and minuses. America isn’t Japan and vice versa. Their culture is very different than ours. It’s of zero help contrasting gun laws there to here.

^^^ comedian!

Sounds like a gored ox to me!

Man, you are incapable of self-awareness...'

Joe

... here you go Joe. An excuse that will resonate with your psyche.

Take a break from the site dude, you are losing your mind. When did I ever give you any indication that I watch, listen, or follow anything that Tucker Carlson has to say?? Your level of political anger is very sad. More to life than politics. Read a book, go play golf or tennis, etc. You will be much happier for it.

Joe

That is why the good doctor deserves the moniker of the dumbest smart guy on this forum. An honor he works hard to earn every day.

1000% agreed. He manages to double and triple-down on it on a daily basis! Truly amazing!!

Joe

Wow ... double teamed by dumber and dumbest.

[MDlaxfan76]

The weird thing is I agree with Robert on some of his ideas. The difficult thing when you listen to that Twitter speech is he seems disingenuous, mildly performative...

Who cares? He could be waving his arms and slapping cymbals between his knees and I wouldn't care. The point is, Now is the time. Now.

For what, exactly? It helps if you reveal what steps you’re seeking.

‘Gun control’ is complicated.

As a conservative, I’d support (I support) defined red flag laws (not “loosely” defined red flag laws, because otherwise anyone could deny anyone their right to self defense with any flimsy accusation), no guns til 21 (as well as voting), no semi or autos til 30, violent felons no guns at all, massive sweeps of known illegal gun activity (mostly cities like Baltimore), and universal background checks at all points of sale excepting shotguns.

And of course the biggie, which is the hardest, there has to be some focus on young introverted males who evidence disturbing behavior like this kid and all the others. Not sure what to do here but it’s clearly the #1 issue.

... what a troll? What bullsh*t?

a little less coffee in the morning might go a long way for you

just sayin’

.. don't drink coffee or any other caffeine delivery solution. Not deflected by bulls*t either.

No wonder you aren't, you spew so much of it on a daily basis!!

Joe

... must be goring your ox eh snowflake.

Not in the slightest. It's just par for the course with you. Find a hobby, get some fresh air. It will do wonders for you. More to life than the FLP Politics Thread!

Joe

Good advice for yourself.

You entered this discussion with a personal insult of a specific poster.

MD,

What's your point? If it's an issue the moderator will take it up with me. I'm not going to give you what you want to hear, as much as that bothers you. JHU72 went off the deep end a LONG time ago. We can all agree that guns are the issue here. But, for anyone in this thread to admit that they are the ONLY root cause of this mass school shooting epidemic, they have their head buried DEEP in the sand. We also have a Mental Health epidemic in this country, that plays a role into the mass shooting epidemic whether you like to admit it or not. We should be passing as much legislature as we can to make guns harder to obtain, that's a given. But that alone won't solve the problem. If you disagree with that, you are only kidding yourself! That enough substance for you Chucky?

Joe

Well at least you got a +1 from Petey, so there's that...
And now from cradle too!

First, thank you for engaging on the actual topic being discussed.

However, I believe you mischaracterized 'Red's response to Salty, whether because you simply misunderstood him or because you were overly eager to insult him, as you did again re 72 re "off the deep end a LONG time ago" just above.

At least as I read his post, Red did Not "admit that they (guns) are the ONLY root cause of this mass school shooting epidemic"; Red neither 'admitted' nor stated such to be the case.

He did say that the list of factors offered up by salty, that didn't include guns, was a "deflection".

JoeMauer89 wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 10:05 pm
RedFromMI wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 8:03 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 7:58 pm

Salty: Anti-depressant drugs, covid isolation, violent video games, social media, breakdown of family structure

Red: Which are present in pretty much a lot of the Western world in fairly similar ways to the US. Not the reason why the problem is so severe here. Just deflection.

Joe: Is your head really that far in the sand to say the above is "deflection"?!?! It's not the only factor, but to be so dismissive of it is just utter lunacy. Those are all bigger factors than you think. It doesn't mean that guns don't remain the single biggest problem... Everything issue in life is not myopically cause/focused by one single factor..

Red:They are NOT the biggest factors. The biggest factors are the number of guns, their easy availability, their increased lethality, and the availability of a shooter to armor themselves to be less vulnerable.

The 1920s had a huge increase in lethality of firearms with the wide availability of devices such as the Thomson submachine gun. The gun legislation of the 1930s (mostly found legal by the SC) redefined sawed off shotguns as "destructive devices" and made the possession of fully automatic weapons illegal with big penalties. It did fix the problem of those guns until the advent of the very small Uzi type weapons.

Until you deal with the actual problem (number of weapons, availability, lethality) you are allowing the problem to continue.

You and Red appear to agree that guns are at the heart of the issue, or at least a critical part. Fine. Good to find common ground.

Red is arguing that the rest of the list (eg mental health issues) exists in many countries, yet the massacre spree is much, much worse in this country.

I don't think that Red would disagree with you (or at least I wouldn't) that mental health problems are present in these massacres, and perhaps fundamental to them as well...but that doesn't explain why they happen with our population and not elsewhere (wealthy developed countries) to nearly the same degree.

Is it your hypothesis that the US has a qualitatively different or worse incidence of mental health issues, that you describe as a "Mental Health epidemic in this country", relative to all of the other modern, wealthy countries in the world?

Ok, if so, why is the US so 'exceptional' in this regard, and what could be done differently from a policy view given this being true?

BTW, we also have hugely higher incidence of guns being used to murder in drug trade and in accidental and suicide deaths.

[MDlaxfan76]

If you want/need a gun, prove that you can handle a gun. Japan's process for buying a gun requires an interview with the police about why you need a gun, a psych evaluation, 3 different permits and a background check that includes interviews of family and neighbors.

Every country has pluses and minuses. America isn’t Japan and vice versa. Their culture is very different than ours. It’s of zero help contrasting gun laws there to here.

^^^ comedian!

Sounds like a gored ox to me!

Man, you are incapable of self-awareness...'

Joe

... here you go Joe. An excuse that will resonate with your psyche.

Take a break from the site dude, you are losing your mind. When did I ever give you any indication that I watch, listen, or follow anything that Tucker Carlson has to say?? Your level of political anger is very sad. More to life than politics. Read a book, go play golf or tennis, etc. You will be much happier for it.

Joe

... my mind is just fine Karen. Carlson is proposing COVID as an excuse.

Again Joe offers up sage advice that he himself struggles to take...

[cradleandshoot]

If you want/need a gun, prove that you can handle a gun. Japan's process for buying a gun requires an interview with the police about why you need a gun, a psych evaluation, 3 different permits and a background check that includes interviews of family and neighbors.

Every country has pluses and minuses. America isn’t Japan and vice versa. Their culture is very different than ours. It’s of zero help contrasting gun laws there to here.

^^^ comedian!

Sounds like a gored ox to me!

Man, you are incapable of self-awareness...'

Joe

... here you go Joe. An excuse that will resonate with your psyche.

Take a break from the site dude, you are losing your mind. When did I ever give you any indication that I watch, listen, or follow anything that Tucker Carlson has to say?? Your level of political anger is very sad. More to life than politics. Read a book, go play golf or tennis, etc. You will be much happier for it.

Joe

That is why the good doctor deserves the moniker of the dumbest smart guy on this forum. An honor he works hard to earn every day.

1000% agreed. He manages to double and triple-down on it on a daily basis! Truly amazing!!

Joe

Wow ... double teamed by dumber and dumbest.

You wouldn't know dumb if it walked up behind you and bit you in your fat ass. Stick to science doc, sarcasm does not work well in your wheelhouse. I'm smart enough to understand that you should have figured that out by now. Why don't you go back to saving the planet? That only makes you look semi stupid in your analysis.

[cradleandshoot]

If you want/need a gun, prove that you can handle a gun. Japan's process for buying a gun requires an interview with the police about why you need a gun, a psych evaluation, 3 different permits and a background check that includes interviews of family and neighbors.

Every country has pluses and minuses. America isn’t Japan and vice versa. Their culture is very different than ours. It’s of zero help contrasting gun laws there to here.

^^^ comedian!

Sounds like a gored ox to me!

Man, you are incapable of self-awareness...'

Joe

... here you go Joe. An excuse that will resonate with your psyche.

Take a break from the site dude, you are losing your mind. When did I ever give you any indication that I watch, listen, or follow anything that Tucker Carlson has to say?? Your level of political anger is very sad. More to life than politics. Read a book, go play golf or tennis, etc. You will be much happier for it.

Joe

... my mind is just fine Karen. Carlson is proposing COVID as an excuse.

Again Joe offers up sage advice that he himself struggles to take...

And right on cue, the FLP republican peanut gallery chimes in...

[JoeMauer89]

The weird thing is I agree with Robert on some of his ideas. The difficult thing when you listen to that Twitter speech is he seems disingenuous, mildly performative...

Who cares? He could be waving his arms and slapping cymbals between his knees and I wouldn't care. The point is, Now is the time. Now.

For what, exactly? It helps if you reveal what steps you’re seeking.

‘Gun control’ is complicated.

As a conservative, I’d support (I support) defined red flag laws (not “loosely” defined red flag laws, because otherwise anyone could deny anyone their right to self defense with any flimsy accusation), no guns til 21 (as well as voting), no semi or autos til 30, violent felons no guns at all, massive sweeps of known illegal gun activity (mostly cities like Baltimore), and universal background checks at all points of sale excepting shotguns.

And of course the biggie, which is the hardest, there has to be some focus on young introverted males who evidence disturbing behavior like this kid and all the others. Not sure what to do here but it’s clearly the #1 issue.

... what a troll? What bullsh*t?

a little less coffee in the morning might go a long way for you

just sayin’

.. don't drink coffee or any other caffeine delivery solution. Not deflected by bulls*t either.

No wonder you aren't, you spew so much of it on a daily basis!!

Joe

... must be goring your ox eh snowflake.

Not in the slightest. It's just par for the course with you. Find a hobby, get some fresh air. It will do wonders for you. More to life than the FLP Politics Thread!

Joe

Good advice for yourself.

You entered this discussion with a personal insult of a specific poster.

MD,

What's your point? If it's an issue the moderator will take it up with me. I'm not going to give you what you want to hear, as much as that bothers you. JHU72 went off the deep end a LONG time ago. We can all agree that guns are the issue here. But, for anyone in this thread to admit that they are the ONLY root cause of this mass school shooting epidemic, they have their head buried DEEP in the sand. We also have a Mental Health epidemic in this country, that plays a role into the mass shooting epidemic whether you like to admit it or not. We should be passing as much legislature as we can to make guns harder to obtain, that's a given. But that alone won't solve the problem. If you disagree with that, you are only kidding yourself! That enough substance for you Chucky?

Joe

Well at least you got a +1 from Petey, so there's that...

First, thank you for engaging on the actual topic being discussed.

However, I believe you mischaracterized 'Red's response to Salty, whether because you simply misunderstood him or because you were overly eager to insult him, as you did again re 72 re "off the deep end a LONG time ago" just above.

At least as I read his post, Red did Not "admit that they (guns) are the ONLY root cause of this mass school shooting epidemic"; Red neither 'admitted' nor stated such to be the case.

He did say that the list of factors offered up by salty, that didn't include guns, was a "deflection".

JoeMauer89 wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 10:05 pm
RedFromMI wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 8:03 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 7:58 pm

Salty: Anti-depressant drugs, covid isolation, violent video games, social media, breakdown of family structure

Red: Which are present in pretty much a lot of the Western world in fairly similar ways to the US. Not the reason why the problem is so severe here. Just deflection.

Joe: Is your head really that far in the sand to say the above is "deflection"?!?! It's not the only factor, but to be so dismissive of it is just utter lunacy. Those are all bigger factors than you think. It doesn't mean that guns don't remain the single biggest problem... Everything issue in life is not myopically cause/focused by one single factor..

Red:They are NOT the biggest factors. The biggest factors are the number of guns, their easy availability, their increased lethality, and the availability of a shooter to armor themselves to be less vulnerable.

The 1920s had a huge increase in lethality of firearms with the wide availability of devices such as the Thomson submachine gun. The gun legislation of the 1930s (mostly found legal by the SC) redefined sawed off shotguns as "destructive devices" and made the possession of fully automatic weapons illegal with big penalties. It did fix the problem of those guns until the advent of the very small Uzi type weapons.

Until you deal with the actual problem (number of weapons, availability, lethality) you are allowing the problem to continue.

You and Red appear to agree that guns are at the heart of the issue, or at least a critical part. Fine. Good to find common ground.

Red is arguing that the rest of the list (eg mental health issues) exists in many countries, yet the massacre spree is much, much worse in this country.

I don't think that Red would disagree with you (or at least I wouldn't) that mental health problems are present in these massacres, and perhaps fundamental to them as well...but that doesn't explain why they happen with our population and not elsewhere (wealthy developed countries) to nearly the same degree.

Is it your hypothesis that the US has a qualitatively different or worse incidence of mental health issues, that you describe as a "Mental Health epidemic in this country", relative to all of the other modern, wealthy countries in the world?

Ok, if so, why is the US so 'exceptional' in this regard, and what could be done differently from a policy view given this being true?

BTW, we also have hugely higher incidence of guns being used to murder in drug trade and in accidental and suicide deaths.

Japan has a major issue with mass stabbing attacks, again with mental health playing a role. I believe that the US is not alone in this phenomenon. I do however think that, our Media is the absolute worst in the entire world and play a large role in negatively affecting mental health. Making guns harder to obtain is priority number 1, 2 and 3. But simultaneously, we need to improve our mental health awareness, infrastructure and support. Both of these things will go a long way towards slowly chipping away at this problem. By no mean's is at a "deflection" on ANYTHING in regards to this issue. Not everything is black and white. What OS said, by no means implies that guns are not the issue, it implies that there are multiple layers to it. If you can't see this, don't want to see it, or some combination of both then I do not what to tell you. You cannot defend the "deflection" remark, it simply does not apply for what OS was trying to say. Take politics out of the equation for one second in your life, and you just might see the whole picture!

Joe

[JoeMauer89]

If you want/need a gun, prove that you can handle a gun. Japan's process for buying a gun requires an interview with the police about why you need a gun, a psych evaluation, 3 different permits and a background check that includes interviews of family and neighbors.

Every country has pluses and minuses. America isn’t Japan and vice versa. Their culture is very different than ours. It’s of zero help contrasting gun laws there to here.

^^^ comedian!

Sounds like a gored ox to me!

Man, you are incapable of self-awareness...'

Joe

... here you go Joe. An excuse that will resonate with your psyche.

Take a break from the site dude, you are losing your mind. When did I ever give you any indication that I watch, listen, or follow anything that Tucker Carlson has to say?? Your level of political anger is very sad. More to life than politics. Read a book, go play golf or tennis, etc. You will be much happier for it.

Joe

... my mind is just fine Karen. Carlson is proposing COVID as an excuse.

Again Joe offers up sage advice that he himself struggles to take...

I take long breaks from posting on the politics thread regularly. You just can't help yourself, can you? Boy you live in some kind fairy-tale world. Take my advice here and take a nice break from posting in the Politics Threads. You will only better yourself for it. But you won't because you feel the need to control the discourse and discussion in every political thread on this site. That's not a good character trait to have. This isn't DinnerTime, where you can control everything. This is an anonymous LACROSSE forum that happens to have a political thread. Give it a rest, you couldn't be more out of touch with reality..

Joe

[Peter Brown]

The weird thing is I agree with Robert on some of his ideas. The difficult thing when you listen to that Twitter speech is he seems disingenuous, mildly performative...

Who cares? He could be waving his arms and slapping cymbals between his knees and I wouldn't care. The point is, Now is the time. Now.

For what, exactly? It helps if you reveal what steps you’re seeking.

‘Gun control’ is complicated.

As a conservative, I’d support (I support) defined red flag laws (not “loosely” defined red flag laws, because otherwise anyone could deny anyone their right to self defense with any flimsy accusation), no guns til 21 (as well as voting), no semi or autos til 30, violent felons no guns at all, massive sweeps of known illegal gun activity (mostly cities like Baltimore), and universal background checks at all points of sale excepting shotguns.

And of course the biggie, which is the hardest, there has to be some focus on young introverted males who evidence disturbing behavior like this kid and all the others. Not sure what to do here but it’s clearly the #1 issue.

... what a troll? What bullsh*t?

a little less coffee in the morning might go a long way for you

just sayin’

.. don't drink coffee or any other caffeine delivery solution. Not deflected by bulls*t either.

No wonder you aren't, you spew so much of it on a daily basis!!

Joe

... must be goring your ox eh snowflake.

Not in the slightest. It's just par for the course with you. Find a hobby, get some fresh air. It will do wonders for you. More to life than the FLP Politics Thread!

Joe

Good advice for yourself.

You entered this discussion with a personal insult of a specific poster.

MD,

What's your point? If it's an issue the moderator will take it up with me. I'm not going to give you what you want to hear, as much as that bothers you. JHU72 went off the deep end a LONG time ago. We can all agree that guns are the issue here. But, for anyone in this thread to admit that they are the ONLY root cause of this mass school shooting epidemic, they have their head buried DEEP in the sand. We also have a Mental Health epidemic in this country, that plays a role into the mass shooting epidemic whether you like to admit it or not. We should be passing as much legislature as we can to make guns harder to obtain, that's a given. But that alone won't solve the problem. If you disagree with that, you are only kidding yourself! That enough substance for you Chucky?

Joe

Well at least you got a +1 from Petey, so there's that...

First, thank you for engaging on the actual topic being discussed.

However, I believe you mischaracterized 'Red's response to Salty, whether because you simply misunderstood him or because you were overly eager to insult him, as you did again re 72 re "off the deep end a LONG time ago" just above.

At least as I read his post, Red did Not "admit that they (guns) are the ONLY root cause of this mass school shooting epidemic"; Red neither 'admitted' nor stated such to be the case.

He did say that the list of factors offered up by salty, that didn't include guns, was a "deflection".

JoeMauer89 wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 10:05 pm
RedFromMI wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 8:03 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 7:58 pm

Salty: Anti-depressant drugs, covid isolation, violent video games, social media, breakdown of family structure

Red: Which are present in pretty much a lot of the Western world in fairly similar ways to the US. Not the reason why the problem is so severe here. Just deflection.

Joe: Is your head really that far in the sand to say the above is "deflection"?!?! It's not the only factor, but to be so dismissive of it is just utter lunacy. Those are all bigger factors than you think. It doesn't mean that guns don't remain the single biggest problem... Everything issue in life is not myopically cause/focused by one single factor..

Red:They are NOT the biggest factors. The biggest factors are the number of guns, their easy availability, their increased lethality, and the availability of a shooter to armor themselves to be less vulnerable.

The 1920s had a huge increase in lethality of firearms with the wide availability of devices such as the Thomson submachine gun. The gun legislation of the 1930s (mostly found legal by the SC) redefined sawed off shotguns as "destructive devices" and made the possession of fully automatic weapons illegal with big penalties. It did fix the problem of those guns until the advent of the very small Uzi type weapons.

Until you deal with the actual problem (number of weapons, availability, lethality) you are allowing the problem to continue.

You and Red appear to agree that guns are at the heart of the issue, or at least a critical part. Fine. Good to find common ground.

Red is arguing that the rest of the list (eg mental health issues) exists in many countries, yet the massacre spree is much, much worse in this country.

I don't think that Red would disagree with you (or at least I wouldn't) that mental health problems are present in these massacres, and perhaps fundamental to them as well...but that doesn't explain why they happen with our population and not elsewhere (wealthy developed countries) to nearly the same degree.

Is it your hypothesis that the US has a qualitatively different or worse incidence of mental health issues, that you describe as a "Mental Health epidemic in this country", relative to all of the other modern, wealthy countries in the world?

Ok, if so, why is the US so 'exceptional' in this regard, and what could be done differently from a policy view given this being true?

BTW, we also have hugely higher incidence of guns being used to murder in drug trade and in accidental and suicide deaths.

Japan has a major issue with mass stabbing attacks, again with mental health playing a role. I believe that the US is not alone in this phenomenon. I do however think that, our Media is the absolute worst in the entire world and play a large role in negatively affecting mental health. Making guns harder to obtain is priority number 1, 2 and 3. But simultaneously, we need to improve our mental health awareness, infrastructure and support. Both of these things will go a long way towards slowly chipping away at this problem. By no mean's is at a "deflection" on ANYTHING in regards to this issue. Not everything is black and white. What OS said, by no means implies that guns are not the issue, it implies that there are multiple layers to it. If you can't see this, don't want to see it, or some combination of both then I do not what to tell you. You cannot defend the "deflection" remark, it simply does not apply for what OS was trying to say. Take politics out of the equation for one second in your life, and you just might see the whole picture!

Joe

MD really hates it when I applaud your posts. He thinks it’s about him.

What he doesn’t realize is I’m not applauding your posts to jump on MD, I just happen to think you had some very logical and substantive thoughts to share. As you do again above.

So, MD, sorry, but +1 again for Joe who continually adds more solid comments here than anyone excepting maybe Cradle.

[jhu72]

If you want/need a gun, prove that you can handle a gun. Japan's process for buying a gun requires an interview with the police about why you need a gun, a psych evaluation, 3 different permits and a background check that includes interviews of family and neighbors.

Every country has pluses and minuses. America isn’t Japan and vice versa. Their culture is very different than ours. It’s of zero help contrasting gun laws there to here.

^^^ comedian!

Sounds like a gored ox to me!

Man, you are incapable of self-awareness...'

Joe

... here you go Joe. An excuse that will resonate with your psyche.

Take a break from the site dude, you are losing your mind. When did I ever give you any indication that I watch, listen, or follow anything that Tucker Carlson has to say?? Your level of political anger is very sad. More to life than politics. Read a book, go play golf or tennis, etc. You will be much happier for it.

Joe

That is why the good doctor deserves the moniker of the dumbest smart guy on this forum. An honor he works hard to earn every day.

1000% agreed. He manages to double and triple-down on it on a daily basis! Truly amazing!!

Joe

Wow ... double teamed by dumber and dumbest.

You wouldn't know dumb if it walked up behind you and bit you in your fat ass. Stick to science doc, sarcasm does not work well in your wheelhouse. I'm smart enough to understand that you should have figured that out by now. Why don't you go back to saving the planet? That only makes you look semi stupid in your analysis.

... someone is playing with my ass, I just figured it was you (dumbest).

[MDlaxfan76]

The weird thing is I agree with Robert on some of his ideas. The difficult thing when you listen to that Twitter speech is he seems disingenuous, mildly performative...

Who cares? He could be waving his arms and slapping cymbals between his knees and I wouldn't care. The point is, Now is the time. Now.

For what, exactly? It helps if you reveal what steps you’re seeking.

‘Gun control’ is complicated.

As a conservative, I’d support (I support) defined red flag laws (not “loosely” defined red flag laws, because otherwise anyone could deny anyone their right to self defense with any flimsy accusation), no guns til 21 (as well as voting), no semi or autos til 30, violent felons no guns at all, massive sweeps of known illegal gun activity (mostly cities like Baltimore), and universal background checks at all points of sale excepting shotguns.

And of course the biggie, which is the hardest, there has to be some focus on young introverted males who evidence disturbing behavior like this kid and all the others. Not sure what to do here but it’s clearly the #1 issue.

... what a troll? What bullsh*t?

a little less coffee in the morning might go a long way for you

just sayin’

.. don't drink coffee or any other caffeine delivery solution. Not deflected by bulls*t either.

No wonder you aren't, you spew so much of it on a daily basis!!

Joe

... must be goring your ox eh snowflake.

Not in the slightest. It's just par for the course with you. Find a hobby, get some fresh air. It will do wonders for you. More to life than the FLP Politics Thread!

Joe

Good advice for yourself.

You entered this discussion with a personal insult of a specific poster.

MD,

What's your point? If it's an issue the moderator will take it up with me. I'm not going to give you what you want to hear, as much as that bothers you. JHU72 went off the deep end a LONG time ago. We can all agree that guns are the issue here. But, for anyone in this thread to admit that they are the ONLY root cause of this mass school shooting epidemic, they have their head buried DEEP in the sand. We also have a Mental Health epidemic in this country, that plays a role into the mass shooting epidemic whether you like to admit it or not. We should be passing as much legislature as we can to make guns harder to obtain, that's a given. But that alone won't solve the problem. If you disagree with that, you are only kidding yourself! That enough substance for you Chucky?

Joe

Well at least you got a +1 from Petey, so there's that...

First, thank you for engaging on the actual topic being discussed.

However, I believe you mischaracterized 'Red's response to Salty, whether because you simply misunderstood him or because you were overly eager to insult him, as you did again re 72 re "off the deep end a LONG time ago" just above.

At least as I read his post, Red did Not "admit that they (guns) are the ONLY root cause of this mass school shooting epidemic"; Red neither 'admitted' nor stated such to be the case.

He did say that the list of factors offered up by salty, that didn't include guns, was a "deflection".

JoeMauer89 wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 10:05 pm
RedFromMI wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 8:03 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 7:58 pm

Salty: Anti-depressant drugs, covid isolation, violent video games, social media, breakdown of family structure

Red: Which are present in pretty much a lot of the Western world in fairly similar ways to the US. Not the reason why the problem is so severe here. Just deflection.

Joe: Is your head really that far in the sand to say the above is "deflection"?!?! It's not the only factor, but to be so dismissive of it is just utter lunacy. Those are all bigger factors than you think. It doesn't mean that guns don't remain the single biggest problem... Everything issue in life is not myopically cause/focused by one single factor..

Red:They are NOT the biggest factors. The biggest factors are the number of guns, their easy availability, their increased lethality, and the availability of a shooter to armor themselves to be less vulnerable.

The 1920s had a huge increase in lethality of firearms with the wide availability of devices such as the Thomson submachine gun. The gun legislation of the 1930s (mostly found legal by the SC) redefined sawed off shotguns as "destructive devices" and made the possession of fully automatic weapons illegal with big penalties. It did fix the problem of those guns until the advent of the very small Uzi type weapons.

Until you deal with the actual problem (number of weapons, availability, lethality) you are allowing the problem to continue.

You and Red appear to agree that guns are at the heart of the issue, or at least a critical part. Fine. Good to find common ground.

Red is arguing that the rest of the list (eg mental health issues) exists in many countries, yet the massacre spree is much, much worse in this country.

I don't think that Red would disagree with you (or at least I wouldn't) that mental health problems are present in these massacres, and perhaps fundamental to them as well...but that doesn't explain why they happen with our population and not elsewhere (wealthy developed countries) to nearly the same degree.

Is it your hypothesis that the US has a qualitatively different or worse incidence of mental health issues, that you describe as a "Mental Health epidemic in this country", relative to all of the other modern, wealthy countries in the world?

Ok, if so, why is the US so 'exceptional' in this regard, and what could be done differently from a policy view given this being true?

BTW, we also have hugely higher incidence of guns being used to murder in drug trade and in accidental and suicide deaths.

Japan has a major issue with mass stabbing attacks, again with mental health playing a role. I believe that the US is not alone in this phenomenon. I do however think that, our Media is the absolute worst in the entire world and play a large role in negatively affecting mental health. Making guns harder to obtain is priority number 1, 2 and 3. But simultaneously, we need to improve our mental health awareness, infrastructure and support. Both of these things will go a long way towards slowly chipping away at this problem. By no mean's is at a "deflection" on ANYTHING in regards to this issue. Not everything is black and white. What OS said, by no means implies that guns are not the issues, it implies that there are multiple layers to it. If you can't see this, don't want to see it, or some combination of both then I do not what to tell you. You cannot defend the "deflection" remark, it simply does not apply for what OS was trying to see. Take politics out of the equation for one second in your life, and you just might see the whole picture!

Joe

At least on my part, Joe, I don't see this through a political lens...I'm interested in policy solutions.

Again, thanks for engaging on the substance. I disagree that Salty was simply adding layers of complexity, not a 'deflection', but I do certainly agree that there are such layers and by no means would I argue that mental health issues should be ignored (for all sorts of reasons they are important, super important).

But I don't think that doing better (somehow) on mental heath is the primary means to alter gun violence, especially these rampant massacres. On that, I do think it's important to get to the binary. Guns, easy access and extreme lethality, are the issue that matter most.

I'm puzzled by "our Media is the absolute worst in the entire world"...can you detail this thought further and how our media uniquely contributes, relative to other places in the world, and what policies might help with that?

[cradleandshoot]

Greg Abbott comments.

These are the people who blather about "American Exceptionalism," but who have made us into a Third World country. Bad infrastructure, political paralysis, and 350,000,000 guns.

Of course liberals such as yourself will gladly exclude yourself and your ideology from contributing to the mess we are in. if the solution is to ban all guns let me know how that works out. All of those many people who own illegal firearms will gladly turn them in. Everybody is looking at the guns and ignoring the crazy people behind the guns. What scares the hell out of me is the plethora of unstable people in this country that are willing to shoot innocent people for no reason. It appears this person celebrated his 18th birthday by purchasing the weapons he used. It could be time to raise the age to purchase a firearm to 18. It should also be mandatory to complete a firearm safety course. This is certainly not a solution, but it is a start.

Grow up. No one is insisting all guns must be banned. Americans have owned guns since forever and never had this problem until high capacity, high rate of fire weapons were made legal. Until we made acquiring and carrying a gun in public easier than acquiring a drivers license. I am sorry if it offends you, but this is a problem that is almost totally the responsibility of the republican party.

Back up the bus didn't Doc Barrister propose that just a few posts above. He appeared to be serious as a heart attack in doing so. FTR aquirering a hand gun in NYS legally is a monumental task that can take as long as a year depending on what county you live in. Buying any weapon in NYS legally requires an FBI background check from the firearms dealer. I agree that different states are very lax on gun ownership. I've said this a 1000 times, step one should be the BATF cracking down on the sale of firearms across state lines. If the solution is the sale of all firearms be regulated at the federal level.. there are 50 states that will take exception to that and the court cases will go on for many years. I'm all for keeping firearms out of the hands of unstable people. How our nation goes about doing that is no simple task. FTR I'm becoming more and more on the side of limiting the sales of AR-15 type weapons. IMO they are not a practical weapon for home defense. I don't think most folks that own these weapons understand how far a 5.56 round can travel and still be lethal. That would be in excess of 300 meters. That is farther than most people can see.

No he did not. He was specific. Ban hand guns, ban assault rifles.
I own a half dozen guns for hunting. None would be banned under Doc's suggestion.

Yes, this needs to be national legislation and it needs to stand up in SCOTUS.

I'm in favor of legal gun range situations that enable citizens to train on weapons, use them in sport, but not keep them in their homes, nor use them in supermarkets, schools, and churches.

I'm in favor of universal background checks of all guns, all situations, including, even, family transfers. No exceptions.

National legislation.

I corrected my mistake a few posts above yours. You abviously didn't read it. FTR how do you ban semi automatic weapons? It sounds easy until you understand what a semi automatic weapon is. If you ban AR 15 types weapons do you ban the venerable M1 Garland? Both are semi automatic weapons. Both are very lethal weapons with the M1 being much more deadly? I own an M1 carbine. A semi automatic rifle. Hell king Andy couldn't define what a semi automatic assault weapon was when he passed the SAFE ACT. For all the weapons he banned he allowed the Ruger Mini 14 to be sold. The same damn 5.56 round fired by the AR-15. The folks at Ruger are very grateful to king Andy. Their sales went thru the roof.

Thanks. Yes, I'd written my response before seeing your correction.

Yes, I'd ban the M1 and the Ruger, as kept at home. I think setting up licensed gun ranges where such weapons could be stored and used in a regulated, safe fashion would be just fine. Including continued 'ownership' of a specific weapon, much like bottles of wine may be stored at a wine storage facility by the owner. You'd simply need to keep and use it there. Come the invasion of the Chinese or the Martians or the zombie apocalypse, you could retrieve it then...

If we imagine a world in which this could actually be passed at a national level, there would certainly be a substantial transition period in getting folks to comply and I'd have a light hand at first to give folks time to adjust, gun storage and range facilities being set up, etc. But the # of guns sold and unsecured would drop substantially and policing could target gun usage by criminals. Community expectations would adjust.

Over time, this would reduce substantially the sorts of gun violence we see all too often, both these massacre sorts of actions, and the gun violence in the streets...the latter, though, I think also requires drug decriminalization and treatment reform, taking the profit out of the illicit trade, making 'street corners' far less critical to fight over.

And not for nothing, hand gun elimination would dramatically reduce accidental deaths in the home and suicides.

MD you make some interesting points. I can only say that until the folks on your side find a way to circumvent the 2nd amendment your peeing in the wind. THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO KEEP AND BARE ARMS SHALL NOT BE INFRINGE D has no ambiguity. How it can be regulated is where the rubber meets the road. I have no intentions of ever owning an AR 15 type of weapon. When people scream with spittle coming out of their mouth that nobody needs an assault rifle.. that ain't the point. The point is the 2nd amendment guarantees that as protected by the constitution. If you choose to you have that right. King Andy tried to ban/regulate these weapons in NYS via the SAFE ACT. There is no half-ass way of doing it. King Andy tried and only made trying to define an assault weapon into a convoluted FLP cluster fudge. That was the cluster fudge that allowed the Buffalo shooter to legally buy his 5.56 rifle in full compliance with NYS SAFE ACT.

[jhu72]

Wow ... GOP Senators have a plan to prevent more mass shooting.

[jhu72]

Herschel Walker's plan.