Trump's Russian Collusion

[tech37]

There is NO WAY you, old salt, tech37, 6ft, or anyone else would "take Barr's word for it", when you have the report, in hand, ready to give to the American public...if this report was about Hillary or the Deep State.

OK a fan...

I have been for transparency since day one (as you know) but I have a hunch you're going to be disappointed when/if this is seen in an unredacted version.

Here's some logic for you... IMO, if Barr had mischaracterized the report, someone, someone out of those 19 democrat lawyers, 40 FBI agents, or "Bobby Three Sticks" (as the enamored resistance hopefuls like to refer to him) himself, by now, would have come forward and corrected the AG's summary.

Of course you'll disagree and/or tell me I said something I never did.

[RedFromMI]

Maybe this will clarify (letter to talkingpointsmemo.com's publisher and main editor Josh Marshall):

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/the-barr-gambit

I'll summarize:

1. The letter is from a former federal prosecutor.

2. A quote (from the former prosecutor): "A few thoughts on the Barr Gambit, which I think will go down as a singular achievement in the annals of intellectual dishonesty and bad faith legal jujitsu:"

3. The letter writer points out that there is no real dispute that the Russian government "brazenly interfered" in the 2016 election _in support_ of Trump. Committing several crimes (hacking, conspiracy to defraud among them). The intended beneficiaries of the criminal behavior was Putin/Russian governemt and Trump.

4. Trump and his campaign "joyfully used and weaponized" the stolen information re: Hillary.

5. Mueller's team did not find enough evidence to charge Trump criminally (at least apparently), but there is no question Trump/Putin were the biggest beneficiaries of the crimes.

6. It appears to the letter writer that Mueller had significant evidence of obstruction. Barr relied apparently in part on Mueller's conclusion he could not bring charges of conspiracy/whatever to argue that Barr must therefore indicate the lack of Trump's corrupt intent to obstruct.

7. This is legally wrong (obstruction does not depend on the existence of an underlying crime - just the fact of an investigation or proceeding is occurring. He/she gives an example: if you receive and use stolen money, even if not involved in the theft, you have interest in the thwarting of an investigation to continue to keep and not forfeit the ill-gotten money. The Mueller investigation was a direct threat to the Presidency, as well as a threat to investigations of his "shady business empire." The argument Barr uses might hold up if the election interference were intended to help Hillary and Trump's campaign were not under investigation.

8. There had to be evidence on failure of evidence of conspiracy or coordination - you would not be able to get 500 search warrants, for example. The failure was to reach the threshold of proving a case beyond a reasonable doubt.

9. Declining to prosecute for obstruction (by Mueller, not Barr) could have been because: a) you don't indict a sitting President, you defer to executive authority, or you defer to the legislative prerogative of impeachment.

10. The former prosecutor expects if the actual Mueller report to contain a devastating case against Trump for obstruction of justice, and expects Barr, the White House, and Republicans in Congress to "fight like hell to keep as much of the report as possible away from the public and House Judiary. Democrats cannot let this go."

[a fan]

Fer fack's sake. You guys are all smarter than this.

Barr could have shot completely straight pool, and told the 100% truth. No need for correction by anyone. Frankly, I have no doubts
whatsoever that he told the truth. I'm not a tinfoil hat ranger.

But:

How long is the Mueller report?

How long was Barr summary?

Ya think maybe, just maybe, Barr left stuff out....and still shot straight pool? Left out things, just as one single example, that have nothing to do with Russian collusion, but either don't look so hot for any number of people, including Trump... or could be directed to other prosecutors for further indictments?

We don't know. We haven't a clue. Stop acting like we do. Or more importantly, stop acting like the libs are nuts for wanting to see the report.

You and the rest of the gang have, for 2 years now, acted like if Trump didn't conspire with Russia, that there are no other laws in our nation that Trump and his crew could possibly break. Or that there is no possibility that there are details of horribly unethical actions by Trump or his crew in that report.

Russia isn't the only stuff in there. Ask Bill Clinton about how this works. He's sort you out real quick. Or Manafort. Or Cohen.

Hell, Benghazi was where they found Hill's server, remember? Doing illegal crap has a way of catching up with you in this country.

Thankfully.

[old salt]

There is NO WAY you, old salt, tech37, 6ft, or anyone else would "take Barr's word for it", when you have the report, in hand, ready to give to the American public...if this report was about Hillary or the Deep State.

OK a fan...

I have been for transparency since day one (as you know) but I have a hunch you're going to be disappointed when/if this is seen in an unredacted version.

Here's some logic for you... IMO, if Barr had mischaracterized the report, someone, someone out of those 19 democrat lawyers, 40 FBI agents, or "Bobby Three Sticks" (as the enamored resistance hopefuls like to refer to him) himself, by now, would have come forward and corrected the AG's summary.

Of course you'll disagree and/or tell me I said something I never did.

It's been reported that Mueller & members of his team who were DoJ employees are still working with Barr, Rosenstein & others in the DoJ & IC to determine what can be released in an unclassified report & what classified material needs to be briefed to the Gang of 8 &/or full Intel Comm's.
IF Barr has mis-characterized anything, then he will lose all credibility, ...& his wife will be shunned from Bible study group with Mrs Mueller.
I wonder if Barr & Mueller considered & consulted on how to best roll this thing out ?

[tech37]

How long is the Mueller report?

No s_ _t a fan...I said I'm all for transparency...go for it...I'm just saying I think you'll be disappointed.

Guess we'll know someday...or not.

[WOMBAT, Mod Emeritus]

Geez, I wondered over here for the first time in a long while.

Did you all hear that the full special prosecutor’s report was released just a couple of years ago? That one was about Watergate.

Good luck reading the full Mueller.

And, before I head back to the drama in the Hopkins thread:

Where’s the pee tape?

Actually I think you can find them on the web. There were multiple, but all fake.

How do you know they were fake?

[youthathletics]

afan you are waaaaay too smart not to understand what is going on. This is more posturing by the left who is looking for any nook and cranny to run with and be the new and improved Take Down Trump theory. We are witnessing political warfare before our very eyes, only this time it is out in front ,not behind closed doors.

See the forest: Trump is not going down, just like HRC did not go down (although Monica did on her behalf ). The Russians are the bad guys, always have been always will be, Americans are not going to allow that to happen in our lifetime. Maybe if this was some small inconsequential country that effed with us, we'd bury them. Interesting how sanction began in 2014 and then fully escalated in 12/2016...which implies they (the russians) are the guilty party.

[frmanfan]

Maybe he was Trump's body double for those tapes, so he knows absolutely for sure, ya ever think of that?

[a fan]

How long is the Mueller report?

No s_ _t a fan...I said I'm all for transparency...go for it...I'm just saying I think you'll be disappointed.

Guess we'll know someday...or not.

Well, if it's "no *hit" , then why are you and others giving the libs grief for wanting to see the doggone thing?

As for me, I have my fingers crossed that there's zero there. I said that from the word go, and you can look it up on this site. If there's a whole bunch of bread crumbs that Mueller is simply giving to other Fed prosecutors or the NY AG, this will drag on for years. I DON"T want that.

Trump will go away when he goes away. I've said numerous times how I think he's screwing the 99%, and handing guys like me money that I don't need, but it falls on deaf ears. I feel nothing but pity for the 99%. They are too stubborn to understand what's happening.

I'm HOPING that Trump is cleared for us rational Americans. What worries me is money laundering and the like that will make this country a mess.

Well that, and "who comes after Trump". Republican voters have lowered the bar so much for this guy, and thrown out pretty much every value that they had all of ten minutes ago, all because he has a little R by his name, and because he sticks it to the libs.

If all you have to do is stick it to the libs and voters are happy----you can do ANYTHING as a President. Scary.

[jhu72]

I suppose this is the crux of both sides on this topic. Jim Jordan video.

https://twitter.com/Jim_Jordan/status/1 ... 0679742464

For F's sake, Jordan isn't quoting Mueller. He's pretending he is. He's not. He's quote what Barr thinks. Sorry, Barr isn't Mueller.

Did anyone----anyone--- in America take a single logic class in college?

There is NO WAY you, old salt, tech37, 6ft, or anyone else would "take Barr's word for it", when you have the report, in hand, ready to give to the American public...if this report was about Hillary or the Deep State.

So just stop. If you're going to call out libs for not letting it go, the stupid thing has to be actually over. How many times did old salt himself tell everyone to wait for the report?

We still don't have the report. Literally nothing has changed from six months ago. Nothing. Mueller is still prosecuting. He's not done, and no one has seen the doggone report.

When we, the public, have the report.....and it's clear that Trump has done nothing wrong? THEN you get to make fun of the libs for not letting go of something.

You know, like HIll's emails, Benghazi, and the Deep State....

Let them have their fun. No harm. They are good Trumpnista, just following orders. Its what Orange Duce wants / demands.

I don't agree that nothing has changed in 6 months, would agree with 2, until yesterday. The news now being reported by multiple sources is that the Mueller DC Grand Jury remains active. There is at least one Mueller "overhang" case they are dealing with, the mystery foreign Bank refusing to cooperate. Others are suspected. SCOTUS on Monday refused to give the Bank relief from the subpoena they are under. The Mueller Grand Jury met yesterday. A DOJ lawyer and associates has now replaced Mueller. Various news organizations and citizen ombudsman groups are working the courts to release all the court and GJ documents associated with the various cases. Based on the reported behavior of the judge being petitioned yesterday I would say the judge is pretty much disposed to releasing the requested information as early as practical at least in the foreign Bank case. Also doesn't appear DOJ is opposed to it. There are indications this process could play out in about 1 month allowing for the judge and DOJ attorneys to meet. As I read it the judge is not making closing of the GJ enquiry a requirement for the release of some of the information requested. I suspect this is because the case deals with a corporate entity, a foreign one to boot. Judge seems to be an advocate of as mush transparency as possible.

In other news, Barr is working to redact the GJ and IC information from the Mueller report. Indicating this will take a good deal of time, months, or at minimum a month. This does not ring true to me. I believe Mueller to be an incredibly organized individual and understands the normal process well. I would have thought this information would have been made into its own appendices, making redaction a breeze! The report body should not need massaging, if Mueller is as capable as I suspect / hope. Many ex - DOJ / FBI talking heads who have worked with Mueller make the same point. There is nothing else which should be redacted.

[old salt]

How long is the Mueller report?

No s_ _t a fan...I said I'm all for transparency...go for it...I'm just saying I think you'll be disappointed.

Guess we'll know someday...or not.

Well, if it's "no *hit" , then why are you and others giving the libs grief for wanting to see the doggone thing?

As for me, I have my fingers crossed that there's zero there. I said that from the word go, and you can look it up on this site. If there's a whole bunch of bread crumbs that Mueller is simply giving to other Fed prosecutors or the NY AG, this will drag on for years. I DON"T want that.

Trump will go away when he goes away. I've said numerous times how I think he's screwing the 99%, and handing guys like me money that I don't need, but it falls on deaf ears. I feel nothing but pity for the 99%. They are too stubborn to understand what's happening.

I'm HOPING that Trump is cleared for us rational Americans. What worries me is money laundering and the like that will make this country a mess.

Well that, and "who comes after Trump". Republican voters have lowered the bar so much for this guy, and thrown out pretty much every value that they had all of ten minutes ago, all because he has a little R by his name, and because he sticks it to the libs.

If all you have to do is stick it to the libs and voters are happy----you can do ANYTHING as a President. Scary.

Who's giving the libs grief for wanting to see it ? Everybody wants to see it.

Barr, Rosenstein, Mueller & Coats need to be given time to comply with the law in preparing it for release.
It not just Barr's decision on what & how to release, without consultation.
We've been told be to patient for 22 wks, we can wait a few more to let them do it legally.
That's why Barr released an Exec Summary, to prevent rampant speculation.
That summary along with the statement there'll be no more indictments tells us a lot.
It already answers what I was most concerned about. All that's left is spinning & quibbling over the details.
...& looking for more fodder to construct a Kompromat Chupacabra.

[a fan]

afan you are waaaaay too smart not to understand what is going on.

And you guys give me grief for the little D's and R's thing. You're doing it again.

What you are describing is what the D's and the libs want. Of COURSE I understand what the Maddow's of the world want.

I'm not Maddow, I'm not a lib, I never believed there was conspiracy with Russians. Although those idiots did their level best to conspire in the Hotel meeting....and I don't forgive that unethical, near-treasonous sh*t.

But here's the thing, and this is what you boys on the fringes don't get. I want to see the damn report for myself. This is a Representative Democracy, and that report is mine as a citizen. I don't care what the left or the right thinks about it. Not even a little.

Make sense?

[jhu72]

Geez, I wondered over here for the first time in a long while.

Did you all hear that the full special prosecutor’s report was released just a couple of years ago? That one was about Watergate.

Good luck reading the full Mueller.

And, before I head back to the drama in the Hopkins thread:

Where’s the pee tape?

Actually I think you can find them on the web. There were multiple, but all fake.

How do you know they were fake?

Various ex-IC types inhabiting the blogspere, twittisphere and the web claim there are a number of pee tapes out there which are rooskie disinformation. One of these, John Schindler, is highly thought of. He sometimes, but infrequently, appears on the Sunday talk shows. He knows his beans.

[a fan]

Who's giving the libs grief for wanting to see it ? Everybody wants to see it....

Don't make me pull quotes. You boys have been making fun for pages now. Come on. I'm not just making stuff up here.

Barr, Rosenstein, Mueller & Coats need to be given time to comply with the law in preparing it for release.
It not just Barr's decision on what & how to release, without consultation.
We've been told be to patient for 22 wks, we can wait a few more to let them do it legally.
That's why Barr released an Exec Summary, to prevent rampant speculation.
That summary along with the statement there'll be no more indictments tells us a lot.
It already answers what I was most concerned about

That's swell. It hasn't answered all my questions. Hopefully that's ok with you.

Correction: there will be no more indictments from Mueller's team. Mueller isn't speaking for anyone but his team.

[old salt]

...those idiots did their level best to conspire in the Hotel meeting....and I don't forgive that unethical, near-treasonous sh*t.

Your darn tootin', dog gummit. The patriotic way to do it is to hire a washed up Brit spy to pay his Russian cronies to gin up some plauasable, but uncomfirmable, oppo & pass it off as intel.

[a fan]

Ah, FoxNation logic. Delightful.

1. You hate Hillary
2. You and Foxnation want Hillary and other investigated and prosecuted for getting info from a foreign entity, and using it to hit her opponent
3. You can't now say it's ok for Trump's crew to try the same thing, except in a hotel room, in person
4. Because look at #1. And #2

What you and FoxNation forget----shocker---- is that Hillary was voted off the island. And one reason for this is that she's a corrupt pos.

Trump, on the other hand, is still here. So the "Hillary did it too" doesn't work. Because you hate her for corrupt cr*p like the Fusion thing, remember?

Up is down. Down is up. But go right ahead and keep supporting Trump for doing the same things that made you hate Hillary. It makes zero sense, but it's your deal, not mine.

[Chips O'Toole]

I'm HOPING that Trump is cleared for us rational Americans.

Trump being "cleared" is NOT ON THE TABLE HERE. That's what "does not exonerate him" means. Barr wrote what any credible person would admit is a highly partisan summary of the Mueller report. Consider that Barr himself decided to add the "does not exonerate" quote. Why would he do that? Because he needs some small thread to hang on to when the report is made public and we see how bad it is -- "look, I said it didn't exonerate him".

There is absolutely no legitimate reason why the report has not yet been made public. Redactions could have been completed by now, very easily. They are delaying only because they know the media frenzy over seeing the report will invariably die down. Barr already made a great effort at dulling the impact of the report with his summary. My guess is they will slowly release pieces of it, mostly redacted, so that everyone will grow numb to it. That, and they want to delay until we get to that cutoff date (which is pretty soon, and maybe even already passed) where Dems will decide an impeachment is not worth the risk with an election right around the corner.

There is no good ending to any of this, for anyone.

[jhu72]

Speaking of Hillary - could we please start another investigation of her?

LOCK HER UP, LOCK HER UP.

[jhu72]

How long is the Mueller report?

No s_ _t a fan...I said I'm all for transparency...go for it...I'm just saying I think you'll be disappointed.

Guess we'll know someday...or not.

Well, if it's "no *hit" , then why are you and others giving the libs grief for wanting to see the doggone thing?

As for me, I have my fingers crossed that there's zero there. I said that from the word go, and you can look it up on this site. If there's a whole bunch of bread crumbs that Mueller is simply giving to other Fed prosecutors or the NY AG, this will drag on for years. I DON"T want that.

Trump will go away when he goes away. I've said numerous times how I think he's screwing the 99%, and handing guys like me money that I don't need, but it falls on deaf ears. I feel nothing but pity for the 99%. They are too stubborn to understand what's happening.

I'm HOPING that Trump is cleared for us rational Americans. What worries me is money laundering and the like that will make this country a mess.

Well that, and "who comes after Trump". Republican voters have lowered the bar so much for this guy, and thrown out pretty much every value that they had all of ten minutes ago, all because he has a little R by his name, and because he sticks it to the libs.

If all you have to do is stick it to the libs and voters are happy----you can do ANYTHING as a President. Scary.

Who's giving the libs grief for wanting to see it ? Everybody wants to see it.

Barr, Rosenstein, Mueller & Coats need to be given time to comply with the law in preparing it for release.
It not just Barr's decision on what & how to release, without consultation.
We've been told be to patient for 22 wks, we can wait a few more to let them do it legally.
That's why Barr released an Exec Summary, to prevent rampant speculation.
That summary along with the statement there'll be no more indictments tells us a lot.
It already answers what I was most concerned about. All that's left is spinning & quibbling over the details.
...& looking for more fodder to construct a Kompromat Chupacabra.

Yea, that worked out really great. I would have said he released it to create rampant speculation.

[Typical Lax Dad]

I'm HOPING that Trump is cleared for us rational Americans.

Trump being "cleared" is NOT ON THE TABLE HERE. That's what "does not exonerate him" means. Barr wrote what any credible person would admit is a highly partisan summary of the Mueller report. Consider that Barr himself decided to add the "does not exonerate" quote. Why would he do that? Because he needs some small thread to hang on to when the report is made public and we see how bad it is -- "look, I said it didn't exonerate him".

There is absolutely no legitimate reason why the report has not yet been made public. Redactions could have been completed by now, very easily. They are delaying only because they know the media frenzy over seeing the report will invariably die down. Barr already made a great effort at dulling the impact of the report with his summary. My guess is they will slowly release pieces of it, mostly redacted, so that everyone will grow numb to it. That, and they want to delay until we get to that cutoff date (which is pretty soon, and maybe even already passed) where Dems will decide an impeachment is not worth the risk with an election right around the corner.

There is no good ending to any of this, for anyone.

The cheering for the crooked politician is hysterical. Better than arguments about Hopkins vs Maryland. We have fallen as a society. USA beyond it’s peak. Just look at the intellect of what is probably many among the top 5% of the socio-economic spectrum that occupy this board. With these folks in the bag, politicians can do anything...the support of the Gentry class.