NCAA Tournament Selection

[fitzlax]

No way Colorado College makes the tournament this year. Why do you think Woods left after making the final 8 last year?

CC is in the Heartland Conference and is the favorite to wins its AQ.

[InsiderRoll]

No way Colorado College makes the tournament this year. Why do you think Woods left after making the final 8 last year?

Probably for the $20-$30k pay bump.

[droliver]

No way Colorado College makes the tournament this year. Why do you think Woods left after making the final 8 last year?

CC is in the Heartland Conference and is the favorite to wins its AQ.

This. Although I wouldn't be stunned if Southwestern (TX) or Hanover beat Colorado College. They're all kind of good but not elite level teams in the middle of D3.

[JustOneTime]

When they are choosing the Pool C teams does anyone know the main criteria the NCAA uses? I know they look at the Region rankings first, so you have to be ranked higher then someone else in your region. From there what do they look at? How do they decide between a team that's ranked third in one region and 6th in another region? Do they look at strength of schedule, head to head, the eye test? Do they have to take pool C teams from each region?

[relaxedfan]

My bad. I didn't think that confrence got an AQ. I'm sure the money and having full-time assistant coaches influenced the move for Coach Woods as well.

[ah23]

This. Although I wouldn't be stunned if Southwestern (TX) or Hanover beat Colorado College. They're all kind of good but not elite level teams in the middle of D3.

Ehhhhhhhh Hanover got absolutely annihilated by both Concordia-Wisconsin (18-3) and Albion (22-1). CC and Southwestern are probably at a similar place in the middle of D-III (CC does have a 19-14 H2H win from early April), but I would be astonished if Hanover is anywhere close to either of them.

And yeah - Colorado College is a very good school with a good lacrosse program, but the ceiling is just so much higher at Amherst. One of the top schools in the country + high-level recruiting destination + national contender in D-III's best conference for the past decade...yeah. The pay + likelihood of having a larger/more competitive staff doesn't hurt.

[generalsfan01]

If W&L loses to Lynchburg in ODAC finals, who would take that last Pool C bid? Would W&L still remain in the tournament or would another team snag the at-large bid? What are the bubble Pool C teams that could sneak in if we had some conference tournament upsets?

[Laxdds]

Since this is a general critique/discussion of the way the NCAA runs the D3 men's lacrosse tournament, let me just say. A very good friend is a D1 referee (not lacrosse) and has worked a national championship game and several final fours, he has said for years, if you think the NCAA gives a damn about the student athlete your crazy. It's about $$ and a little PC thrown in there for good measure.

Anyway I am enjoying the conversation and am looking forward to the tournament.

[JustOneTime]

When they are choosing the Pool C teams does anyone know the main criteria the NCAA uses? I know they look at the Region rankings first, so you have to be ranked higher then someone else in your region. From there what do they look at? How do they decide between a team that's ranked third in one region and 6th in another region? Do they look at strength of schedule, head to head, the eye test? Do they have to take pool C teams from each region?

[InsiderRoll]

If W&L loses to Lynchburg in ODAC finals, who would take that last Pool C bid? Would W&L still remain in the tournament or would another team snag the at-large bid? What are the bubble Pool C teams that could sneak in if we had some conference tournament upsets?

At this point if that scenario will played out W&L would likely be the last team in or first team out. Their resume would be weighed against Stevenson and F&M mostly. If they won in the semis then lost to Lynchburg then they would pick up an extra win vs a regionally ranked opponent. Stevenson would not. F&Ms resume is complete and they would likely be out. Stevie has a win over Denison who beat W&L. W&L has a the best win of the 2 over Lynchburg. W&L went undefeated in conference in arguably a better conference. It’ll be close. There are some teams that could play spoiler in the conference tournaments. The NEWMAC, MIAA, OAC, and NCAC need to be won by the favorites for them to feel good about it as well.

[DeepPocket]

When they are choosing the Pool C teams does anyone know the main criteria the NCAA uses? I know they look at the Region rankings first, so you have to be ranked higher then someone else in your region. From there what do they look at? How do they decide between a team that's ranked third in one region and 6th in another region? Do they look at strength of schedule, head to head, the eye test? Do they have to take pool C teams from each region?

By no means am I an expert, though there are a few here who fancy themselves as such but won’t share their vast knowledge. So this is the best I’ve got. If someone has more, or better information PLEASE SHARE.

Selection Sunday is May 8th, there’s a selection show.
27 PoolA (AQs), 1 PoolB, 10 PoolC.
For PoolC the system used to grade teams is a combination of;
-W/L% in general
-Wins over regionally ranked opponents (ranked in THAT TEAM’s region - NCAA regionally ranked, NOT POLLS).
-Comparing those above to teams in their region
-Strength of schedule, which is compromised of 2 factors, the team’s opponent’s win% (representing 2/3) and the team’s opponent’s opponent’s win% (representing 1/3).
That strength of schedule calculation is a NCAA wide calculation, not lacrosse specific.

All that is used to generate a single metric that can be compared to the results of the same calculation for teams in other regions. Again, anyone, please share any other insight, it’s the same question every year. All the “know it alls” get frustrated by constantly hearing it, but never just try to answer it….

Those two Midwest conference upsets for the AQs will likely throw a wrench in PoolCs, as the runner ups (who were favorites) from those two conferences have stronger REGIONAL resumes than say, a great team from a fantastic conference with a .500 record, who they’ll be competing with for PoolC bids.

Savvy?

[JustOneTime]

Do they only compare teams that are not in the same region by this single metric? There is no conversation about one team being considered over another? Is it simply whoever has the better metric?

[mailsy]

For those arguing against pool B. The 2019 Cabrini University Cavaliers became National Champions. Are you saying they weren't worthy to be in the Tourney because they came from pool B? Just asking for a friend.

[DeepPocket]

For those arguing against pool B. The 2019 Cabrini University Cavaliers became National Champions. Are you saying they weren't worthy to be in the Tourney because they came from pool B? Just asking for a friend.

No. From my reading what they’re writing, they’re saying the PoolB bid should just be another PoolC bid. A great team in a conference without and AQ, such as your referenced 19’ Cabrini, or Salisbury and CNU of this year, could and would still get in on it’s merits as a PoolC.

And if one year there happens to be stronger teams in other conferences that didn’t get their AQ, they should have a crack at that bid, not have it penciled in exclusively for “the best team from conferences without an AQ.”

[DeepPocket]

Do they only compare teams that are not in the same region by this single metric? There is no conversation about one team being considered over another? Is it simply whoever has the better metric?

I can’t say for certain, but I would imagine this is it. Because it would be tough to quantify an “eye test” adjusted score if someone called you out on it or disagreed at the table.

[ICGrad]

For those arguing against pool B. The 2019 Cabrini University Cavaliers became National Champions. Are you saying they weren't worthy to be in the Tourney because they came from pool B? Just asking for a friend.

I'm not saying they didn't deserve to be in the tourney at all. I'm saying they should have earned a Pool C bid along with the rest of the teams that didn't earn an AQ.

D1 doesn't have Pool B. ACC teams "earn" at-large bids with the rest of 'em.

[InsiderRoll]

For those arguing against pool B. The 2019 Cabrini University Cavaliers became National Champions. Are you saying they weren't worthy to be in the Tourney because they came from pool B? Just asking for a friend.

I'm not saying they didn't deserve to be in the tourney at all. I'm saying they should have earned a Pool C bid along with the rest of the teams that didn't earn an AQ.

D1 doesn't have Pool B. ACC teams "earn" at-large bids with the rest of 'em.

I don’t know what to tell you. Every NCAA D3 sport has Pool B. Enough D3 ADs voted for it and felt that it was good for Division 3. Perhaps there are forces having nothing to do with mens lacrosse at play. I know it’s surprising, but the NCAA isn’t actually some evil organization that just makes things up, it’s rules and bylaws are created and written by it’s membership.

[DeepPocket]

... I know it’s surprising, but the NCAA isn’t actually some evil organization that just makes things up...

[ICGrad]

I don’t know what to tell you. Every NCAA D3 sport has Pool B. Enough D3 ADs voted for it and felt that it was good for Division 3. Perhaps there are forces having nothing to do with mens lacrosse at play. I know it’s surprising, but the NCAA isn’t actually some evil organization that just makes things up, it’s rules and bylaws are created and written by it’s membership.

Fair enough. I'm not an NCAA hater; I just think Pool B needs to be reconsidered. Looking at the numbers, it seems in many sports Pool B is shrinking considerably, which is good.

[ah23]

Every NCAA D3 sport has Pool B.

I don’t think that’s true. I went through the various ‘marquee’ sports (football, basketball, soccer, baseball, hockey, etc.) earlier on Monday and it’s a mixed bag. Some sports have just AQs and at-large bids. Other sports do have Pool B (whether or not it ends up being used is a bit of a mixed bag though).