old salt wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 4:43 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:06 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 3:17 pm
Our EU allies are terrified. They're not echoing our triumphalism. They're worried about surviving, not "winning".
They want a cease fire asap, so they can keep buying the Russian energy upon which their economies are still dependent.
SecDef can't promise a military victory when US forces are not involved.
He gave Putin the perfect talking point & justification for using a tac nuc.
He is creating false expectations among the US public.
Speak softly & wield a big stick, or better yet, give one to the Ukrainians.
No one can "win" without control of the airspace & the Black Sea.
This comes across as defeatist.
Our EU allies are not "terrified", though we all certainly should be very worried about Putin taking this nuclear when he's otherwise defeated. EU certainly. But as previously said, if he does, NATO should/will utterly destroy his conventional capacities and create that no fly zone. Don't escalate to respond with nuclear. The world, not just NATO, will rally in horror.
On energy, Poland is leading the way and everyone else in NATO is scrambling as well. But the entire region has decided that they MUST decouple from energy from Russia...the only reversal of that would be Putin's overthrow.
Defeatist ? It's not our war, or NATO's. It's a civil war between former Soviet states. Unresolved issues from the breakup of the USSR. We have chosen to support Ukraine with financial & military aid. That's it.
Watch the evening news from Germany, France & the UK. They're
-- asking their "experts" w.t.f is Sec Austin proposing ? You don't hear any of their retired Generals calling to fill the skies over Ukraine with F-35's. The EUroburghers don't want to humiliate Russia & devastate their military. They want the killing & destruction to end asap so they can return to the status quo & resume trading with Russia & buying their energy. It will be years before they don't need Russian energy.
Russia is still holding & slowly gaining territory. They still control the sea & the skies. They are free to lob missiles into Ukraine at their liesure. They are far from defeated.
So you'd trade a tac nuc strike for a no fly zone ? That's just nuts. Once a tac nuc flies, if we escalate conventionally, more will follow.
Yup, defeatist...thank goodness the Ukrainians aren't led by you, Salty. Just bend over and take and ask for another, please sir Putin, can I have another?
I totally agree with you that Russia is far from defeated. But they need to be, thoroughly. Repelled from Ukraine, choked from rebuilding their military capacities. That's likely to take many months if not years.
And you're kidding yourself if you think the bulk of Europeans don't know that, too. Maybe it's just your RT reading crowd that's whining about getting back to 'normal' dependence on Russian energy?
Would I trade a tac nuclear strike for a no fly zone? Of course not, no one is asking for a tactical nuclear strike...the point is that Putin's military sure as shooting should know that their forces will be utterly destroyed if they go nuclear. And no, we don't need to respond with nuclear to achieve that end. So, if Putin wants to go that path, he's going to need to overcome the generals and the rest of the forces who remain sane...of course, they may do it...and then we'll need to respond hard.
But if that happens, we should NOT go nuclear (or chem/bio)...our not doing so, yet utterly destroying their forces, will rally the world and set the stage for Putin's demise.