Who is supporting the immigrant caravan?

[a fan]

WHy do you keep repeating that their was NO bill, debate or proposed legislation ? It is just untrue. AFAN, I mostly respect your opinion and viewpoints, but on this issue, you are just flat out wrong. Congress is very much like John Lovitz character in big, fake busy (best stop watching infotainment, it's skewing reality )

Because they didn't work on the bill. They put something up they know wouldn't pass so they can look like they tried.

See, what's SUPPOSED to happen, and what happened for 200 years---particularly when the guys 6ft claims is trying to fix the problem has a massive majority-----is that they'd take that proposed bill, work on it until they get all R's on board, and pass the thing.

It's just as you say: fake busy.

So sure, if you want to call me wrong, and pretend that they tried, yeah...ok.

But look at who was in the way of the HR4760 passing: 41 Republicans. Whoops. It's almost as if they don't really want to fix the problem. Because if they DID want to fix the problem, they would have worked on it again, immediately after the vote, to get 41 votes on board. And then pass the thing. That's how our government is supposed to work. Instead? Nothing.

This is why we're stuck: Republican voters give those 41 Republicans who voted no a pass. They don't hammer them. Fox doesn't list them by name, and demand they be primary-ied. Why? Because Fox is owned by the 1%, and they don't want to fix the problem either.

[dislaxxic]

Here are 12 key truths about the border that keep getting ignored

"Borders are cruel. I know this because I’ve been studying the U.S.-Mexico border for more than 40 years. It features prominently in two of my books, written in different decades. It keeps pulling me back. Every time I cross that border, I say to myself that this is no big deal — I’m used to it. And every time, I feel that familiar fear-or-flight jolt of adrenaline and hear the inner warning: Watch out! Things go wrong here.

The border is cruel because it gives some people what they want and denies the needs of almost everybody else. Still, the hopeful come, lately in swelling numbers. Sadly, the cruelty of the border has ratcheted upward. It didn’t have to. U.S. policies have added unnecessary meanness to the innate hurt of the dividing line we share with Mexico. Here are a dozen “realities” of the border that I try to keep in mind while mulling the latest disasters."

..

[runrussellrun]

WHy do you keep repeating that their was NO bill, debate or proposed legislation ? It is just untrue. AFAN, I mostly respect your opinion and viewpoints, but on this issue, you are just flat out wrong. Congress is very much like John Lovitz character in big, fake busy (best stop watching infotainment, it's skewing reality )

Because they didn't work on the bill. They put something up they know wouldn't pass so they can look like they tried.

See, what's SUPPOSED to happen, and what happened for 200 years---particularly when the guys 6ft claims is trying to fix the problem has a massive majority-----is that they'd take that proposed bill, work on it until they get all R's on board, and pass the thing.

It's just as you say: fake busy.

So sure, if you want to call me wrong, and pretend that they tried, yeah...ok.

But look at who was in the way of the HR4760 passing: 41 Republicans. Whoops. It's almost as if they don't really want to fix the problem. Because if they DID want to fix the problem, they would have worked on it again, immediately after the vote, to get 41 votes on board. And then pass the thing. That's how our government is supposed to work. Instead? Nothing.

This is why we're stuck: Republican voters give those 41 Republicans who voted no a pass. They don't hammer them. Fox doesn't list them by name, and demand they be primary-ied. Why? Because Fox is owned by the 1%, and they don't want to fix the problem either.

Man...for a guy that accuses others of goal post moving, your back sure must be tired

You stated Congress did NOTHING......I proved you wrong. Somewho that morphed into being inept at drafting passable legislation.

TENS of Thousands of bills get drafted every Congressional session. In just three short months, the 116th Congress has proposed 3194 bills.

https://www.govtrack.us/

Boston U. is leading DIV 1 in shots taken (442), but is ranked 39th in one of the most important stats, shooting percentage, scoring on 123 of those shots for a % of .278. Like Congress, BU is very busy, (shots) just not good at passing legislation (goals). Doesn't mean they are trying.

[runrussellrun]

Here are 12 key truths about the border that keep getting ignored

"Borders are cruel. I know this because I’ve been studying the U.S.-Mexico border for more than 40 years. It features prominently in two of my books, written in different decades. It keeps pulling me back. Every time I cross that border, I say to myself that this is no big deal — I’m used to it. And every time, I feel that familiar fear-or-flight jolt of adrenaline and hear the inner warning: Watch out! Things go wrong here.

The border is cruel because it gives some people what they want and denies the needs of almost everybody else. Still, the hopeful come, lately in swelling numbers. Sadly, the cruelty of the border has ratcheted upward. It didn’t have to. U.S. policies have added unnecessary meanness to the innate hurt of the dividing line we share with Mexico. Here are a dozen “realities” of the border that I try to keep in mind while mulling the latest disasters."

..

I am dumberer for clicking on your link......didn't think THAT could happen.

[a fan]

Man...for a guy that accuses others of goal post moving, your back sure must be tired

That's totally fair. I was wrong about whether or not they did something. They took one bill to a vote, and that certainly counts as something.

[jhu72]

WHy do you keep repeating that their was NO bill, debate or proposed legislation ? It is just untrue. AFAN, I mostly respect your opinion and viewpoints, but on this issue, you are just flat out wrong. Congress is very much like John Lovitz character in big, fake busy (best stop watching infotainment, it's skewing reality )

Because they didn't work on the bill. They put something up they know wouldn't pass so they can look like they tried.

See, what's SUPPOSED to happen, and what happened for 200 years---particularly when the guys 6ft claims is trying to fix the problem has a massive majority-----is that they'd take that proposed bill, work on it until they get all R's on board, and pass the thing.

It's just as you say: fake busy.

So sure, if you want to call me wrong, and pretend that they tried, yeah...ok.

But look at who was in the way of the HR4760 passing: 41 Republicans. Whoops. It's almost as if they don't really want to fix the problem. Because if they DID want to fix the problem, they would have worked on it again, immediately after the vote, to get 41 votes on board. And then pass the thing. That's how our government is supposed to work. Instead? Nothing.

This is why we're stuck: Republican voters give those 41 Republicans who voted no a pass. They don't hammer them. Fox doesn't list them by name, and demand they be primary-ied. Why? Because Fox is owned by the 1%, and they don't want to fix the problem either.

It is known why those 41 republicans didn't vote for it. It authorized and funded the wall for $25 billion (IIRC). Those ex-Tea Party now Freedom Caucus republicans wouldn't vote for it and the democrats didn't vote for it for the same reason. Strange we are now criticizing those Tea Party folks. The republicans could have gotten a majority by removing the $25 billion funding authorization. Probably some democrats would have voted for it as well. As I have been saying for more than 10 years, you want to pass immigration reform, drop the nut fringe demands. The republican leaders knew going in - this bill would not pass. Just trying to appease Agent Orange. Orange Duce tried a full court press to convince those 41 republicans and failed miserably. HE IS A GREAT SALESMAN. Just ask him. Then again if you dropped the $25 billion in funding the republican nuts that voted for it, would not have voted for it. Welcome to the republican party.

[runrussellrun]

Man...for a guy that accuses others of goal post moving, your back sure must be tired

That's totally fair. I was wrong about whether or not they did something. They took one bill to a vote, and that certainly counts as something.

Clearly didn't read my posts or hit the links. Almost 400 immigration related bills during the 115th Congress (last) Like LP, this is a futile exercise and not void of onesided conversations. Try the links again, mighty tasty

[runrussellrun]

WHy do you keep repeating that their was NO bill, debate or proposed legislation ? It is just untrue. AFAN, I mostly respect your opinion and viewpoints, but on this issue, you are just flat out wrong. Congress is very much like John Lovitz character in big, fake busy (best stop watching infotainment, it's skewing reality )

Because they didn't work on the bill. They put something up they know wouldn't pass so they can look like they tried.

See, what's SUPPOSED to happen, and what happened for 200 years---particularly when the guys 6ft claims is trying to fix the problem has a massive majority-----is that they'd take that proposed bill, work on it until they get all R's on board, and pass the thing.

It's just as you say: fake busy.

So sure, if you want to call me wrong, and pretend that they tried, yeah...ok.

But look at who was in the way of the HR4760 passing: 41 Republicans. Whoops. It's almost as if they don't really want to fix the problem. Because if they DID want to fix the problem, they would have worked on it again, immediately after the vote, to get 41 votes on board. And then pass the thing. That's how our government is supposed to work. Instead? Nothing.

This is why we're stuck: Republican voters give those 41 Republicans who voted no a pass. They don't hammer them. Fox doesn't list them by name, and demand they be primary-ied. Why? Because Fox is owned by the 1%, and they don't want to fix the problem either.

It is known why those 41 republicans didn't vote for it. It authorized and funded the wall for $25 billion (IIRC). Those ex-Tea Party now Freedom Caucus republicans wouldn't vote for it and the democrats didn't vote for it for the same reason. Strange we are now criticizing those Tea Party folks. The republicans could have gotten a majority by removing the $25 billion funding authorization. Probably some democrats would have voted for it as well. As I have been saying for more than 10 years, you want to pass immigration reform, drop the nut fringe demands. The republican leaders knew going in - this bill would not pass. Just trying to appease Agent Orange. Orange Duce tried a full court press to convince those 41 republicans and failed miserably. HE IS A GREAT SALESMAN. Just ask him. Then again if you dropped the $25 billion in funding the republican nuts that voted for it, would not have voted for it. Welcome to the republican party.

TAATS is real, THE DWAYYO told me so. Not that details matter, but "only" $10 billion of that $25 billion was gonna go to the wall.

[jhu72]

WHy do you keep repeating that their was NO bill, debate or proposed legislation ? It is just untrue. AFAN, I mostly respect your opinion and viewpoints, but on this issue, you are just flat out wrong. Congress is very much like John Lovitz character in big, fake busy (best stop watching infotainment, it's skewing reality )

Because they didn't work on the bill. They put something up they know wouldn't pass so they can look like they tried.

See, what's SUPPOSED to happen, and what happened for 200 years---particularly when the guys 6ft claims is trying to fix the problem has a massive majority-----is that they'd take that proposed bill, work on it until they get all R's on board, and pass the thing.

It's just as you say: fake busy.

So sure, if you want to call me wrong, and pretend that they tried, yeah...ok.

But look at who was in the way of the HR4760 passing: 41 Republicans. Whoops. It's almost as if they don't really want to fix the problem. Because if they DID want to fix the problem, they would have worked on it again, immediately after the vote, to get 41 votes on board. And then pass the thing. That's how our government is supposed to work. Instead? Nothing.

This is why we're stuck: Republican voters give those 41 Republicans who voted no a pass. They don't hammer them. Fox doesn't list them by name, and demand they be primary-ied. Why? Because Fox is owned by the 1%, and they don't want to fix the problem either.

It is known why those 41 republicans didn't vote for it. It authorized and funded the wall for $25 billion (IIRC). Those ex-Tea Party now Freedom Caucus republicans wouldn't vote for it and the democrats didn't vote for it for the same reason. Strange we are now criticizing those Tea Party folks. The republicans could have gotten a majority by removing the $25 billion funding authorization. Probably some democrats would have voted for it as well. As I have been saying for more than 10 years, you want to pass immigration reform, drop the nut fringe demands. The republican leaders knew going in - this bill would not pass. Just trying to appease Agent Orange. Orange Duce tried a full court press to convince those 41 republicans and failed miserably. HE IS A GREAT SALESMAN. Just ask him. Then again if you dropped the $25 billion in funding the republican nuts that voted for it, would not have voted for it. Welcome to the republican party.

TAATS is real, THE DWAYYO told me so. Not that details matter, but "only" $10 billion of that $25 billion was gonna go to the wall.

TALTZ

[runrussellrun]

don't even care.........

[a fan]

Clearly didn't read my posts or hit the links.

Oh, I did. I'm just not ready to give Congress credit for passing fake bills that members of Congress know full well will never become law.

They also passed the bill to replace Obamacare. You gonna pretend those were sincere bills, too?

[kramerica.inc]

All this spin on both sides. Left is appalled that immigrants are being split from families and sent home. Right is appalled that states are providing sanctuary to obvious law breakers.
Meanwhile nothing has improved and no changes have occurred. Anywhere. The US remains an open border free for all, with infrastructure, schools and programs being sopped dry by non citizens. In the meantime the deficits grows exponentially.
Immigrants are the lifeblood of this country and needed. But the system needs to be fixed ASAP. The country can’t continue down this path. How does it get fixed?

[a fan]

Republican voters and their media have to shut up, stop talking about "what the libs are doing", and focus 100% of their attention on what their Republican representatives are doing. And hold them accountable.

And the Dem voters and their media needs to do the same.

Until this changes, the media...that is owned and operated by the 1%-ers...will continue to let the 1%ers fleece the rest of us 99%ers, with no one in their way.

The 1% benefits from the status quo on immigration. It's as clear as day that this is why nothing is getting done.

[holmes435]

All this spin on both sides. Left is appalled that immigrants are being split from families and sent home. Right is appalled that states are providing sanctuary to obvious law breakers.
Meanwhile nothing has improved and no changes have occurred. Anywhere. The US remains an open border free for all, with infrastructure, schools and programs being sopped dry by non citizens. In the meantime the deficits grows exponentially.
Immigrants are the lifeblood of this country and needed. But the system needs to be fixed ASAP. The country can’t continue down this path. How does it get fixed?

You have a few good points, but illegal immigrants aren't sopping the country dry money-wise, nor are they the cause of exploding deficits. Please show your work on why you think that if we're to believe it. It's more spin that you've fallen for.

[jhu72]

All this spin on both sides. Left is appalled that immigrants are being split from families and sent home. Right is appalled that states are providing sanctuary to obvious law breakers.
Meanwhile nothing has improved and no changes have occurred. Anywhere. The US remains an open border free for all, with infrastructure, schools and programs being sopped dry by non citizens. In the meantime the deficits grows exponentially.
Immigrants are the lifeblood of this country and needed. But the system needs to be fixed ASAP. The country can’t continue down this path. How does it get fixed?

The Bill has been available since 2013. Would have passed the Senate, would have passed the House. Boehner and then Ryan both kept it from coming to a vote in the House - because they knew it would pass! Republican leaders didn't want to piss off the nut fringe of the party that insisted on deporting all illegals, an impossible task. This would likely still pass although with a little more trouble. Stop trying to solve the legacy problem and concentrate on solving the problems going forward. A half or three quarters of a loaf is better than no loaf at all. Stop buying the nonsense that democrats just want to increase their base with brown people; these particular brown people are mostly catholic and would vote with republicans on the issue of abortion. There is near universal agreement something needs to be done, but the democrats are not going to agree to the level of deportation the republicans now require and they are not going to be willing to spend large dollars on a technology that has proven not to work. Democrats voted for walls in the past and do not believe they work. Doing e-verify with heavy penalties for all employers who have even minor violations would solve the problem, but for asylum seekers. That is a special problem and requires an agreement on what kind of country we want to be. At the moment there is no agreement and Trump is not helping to reach an agreement.

Gang of 8 Wiki.

Gang of 8 Bill Description.

[runrussellrun]

All this spin on both sides. Left is appalled that immigrants are being split from families and sent home. Right is appalled that states are providing sanctuary to obvious law breakers.
Meanwhile nothing has improved and no changes have occurred. Anywhere. The US remains an open border free for all, with infrastructure, schools and programs being sopped dry by non citizens. In the meantime the deficits grows exponentially.
Immigrants are the lifeblood of this country and needed. But the system needs to be fixed ASAP. The country can’t continue down this path. How does it get fixed?

The pretends didn't care ONE lick about family separations between 2009-2016. 70% disapproval rating. Would anyone have retain employment with that type of job review/performance? exactly

[jhu72]

Strangest thing happened last night. After posting the above I watched a documentary about the 16 election, from the perspective of folks living on the border. One of the ranchers living on the border in Cochise County AZ, a Trump voter / supporter was being interviewed standing by a section of the wall existing on the border. The section of wall looked exactly like the border wall Trump proposes to install. While the rancher was talking a drone flew over head. The rancher and interviewer took note of it. The interviewer said it looked like a border patrol drone. The rancher said, no, they see them all the time. This particular drone was a "bad guy" drone, probably just spying on them, noticed the camera lights and wanted to see what was up. The rancher then went on to say, sometimes the drones were just spying, some time they were drug mule drones. He said they were always seeing the drug mule drones flying across their property.

Now the accepted narrative is that most drugs cross at entry ports, not across the border at random points. Well this documentary proves that not all drugs move into the US at ports of entry. It also proves that walls don't and won't stop drugs entering the US.


A side note: The documentary was very informative. One cannot help but feel for these Trump voters, those interviewed not just the rancher mentioned above. They really are at a loss and feel totally alone, forgotten, ignored, etc. These were not bad people that I could see. Not hardcore racists, or hardcore xenophobes. They were people with problems and not unreasonably wanting and asking for help. One even referred to himself as a "deplorable". He certainly did not seem to be in the class of "deplorables" as defined by Hillary. He certainly was not one I would refer to as deplorable, based on what I saw of him. He had been "sold" or "convinced" he was being called deplorable perhaps by not understanding Hillary, being predisposed to hating her, or the fact that the concept needed more explanation or perhaps by being told by republican politicians "Hillary has called you a deplorable", most likely all three. How ever he came to the notion, it was clearly "a failure to communicate".

[ABV 8.3%]

All this spin on both sides. Left is appalled that immigrants are being split from families and sent home. Right is appalled that states are providing sanctuary to obvious law breakers.
Meanwhile nothing has improved and no changes have occurred. Anywhere. The US remains an open border free for all, with infrastructure, schools and programs being sopped dry by non citizens. In the meantime the deficits grows exponentially.
Immigrants are the lifeblood of this country and needed. But the system needs to be fixed ASAP. The country can’t continue down this path. How does it get fixed?

You have a few good points, but illegal immigrants aren't sopping the country dry money-wise, nor are they the cause of exploding deficits. Please show your work on why you think that if we're to believe it. It's more spin that you've fallen for.

In terms of payroll and payroll taxes, illegals have lots to do with financials in terms of revenue stream. The CBO (congressional budget office ) estimates that 50% to 75% of illegals pays taxes. You've got to be kidding with this estimate. According to the IRS, in 2015, 4.35 million people paid over 13.7 billion in net taxes using an ITIN. (ITIN should go away) That"s roughly $3,300 per person filing taxes. That means these illegals are making $28k a year, or roughly $14 dollars an hour (very close to the pathetically low "living wage" that some are advocating for. Should be $20 ) Who thinks illegals are getting paid this much?
No one knows the real number, ranging anywhere from 15 to 30 million illegals , but if even if you took the low end (15 million) those that pay taxes (illegals using ITIN) comes out to only 28%. Not even close to the CBO's claim of 50 to 70 percent.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/artic ... ne.0201193

And, of course, we are talking about illegals that have a moral compass. You know the drill, the vast majority are paid under the table. With no OT or any benefits.

Of course illegals take more than they give. Case in point, the kids detained at the border live in Mexico, but attend a school in the US. (mentioned this a few posts ago ) I am assuming these kids families are not paying rent, property tax or other taxes that fund the school districts they attend. While not sopping the country dry, how does a school district get it's revenue from an untaxed student base? From the sales or meals tax ? Sure, that will cover the cost per pupil. 45 states do NOT tax food purchases, so you ain't getting revenue from that. Clothing isn't taxed in about a bakers dozen states either. (mostly in the northeast)

I really don't know why the benefits of hiring illegals isn't discussed. It's so obvious. Anyone on here own a company? Would you rather pay a good worker $5 an hour, zero benefits and have them work 60-80 hours a week, with no overtime, sick or vacation days.Oh, and no FICA, workmans comp and zero chance of getting sued for abuse, harrassment, etc. Or, would you rather pay a good employee $15 an hour, with all the legally required benefits?

[holmes435]

Yes, we know that first generation immigrants generally take more than they give. We also know know that second and third generation immigrants are net givers to the economy that more than makes up for those first generation immigrants - the long term economic gains are pretty big. My main point was that they are not the massive drain on the economy that some people try to claim. They contribute to low priced goods which spurs our consumer driven economy, for good and bad.

I do like your analysis, but I guess my question is what's the difference between them coming in legally vs. illegally economically? It sounds like one of the only real differences would be possibly contributing more payroll taxes by some of them working legally?

A number of us have been advocating for enforcing e-verify on the boards for a long time, myself included. Take away the hiring incentive demand for illegals you'll drastically reduce illegal immigration. Much more than an expensive wall.

[a fan]

Of course illegals take more than they give. Case in point, the kids detained at the border live in Mexico, but attend a school in the US. (mentioned this a few posts ago ) I am assuming these kids families are not paying rent, property tax or other taxes that fund the school districts they attend. While not sopping the country dry, how does a school district get it's revenue from an untaxed student base? From the sales or meals tax ? Sure, that will cover the cost per pupil. 45 states do NOT tax food purchases, so you ain't getting revenue from that. Clothing isn't taxed in about a bakers dozen states either. (mostly in the northeast)

Alright, I'll bite: where do you think these kids are living that their guardians don't pay taxes?

Anyone on here own a company? Would you rather pay a good worker $5 an hour, zero benefits and have them work 60-80 hours a week, with no overtime, sick or vacation days.Oh, and no FICA, workmans comp and zero chance of getting sued for abuse, harrassment, etc. Or, would you rather pay a good employee $15 an hour, with all the legally required benefits?

I'd rather----and do----- pay a good employee $15 an hour, with all the legally required benefits.

You know: because I want to follow the law. And I'm not an unethical POS who wants to stick to not just to the immigrant, but also my fellow American business owners who think that following the law is important, and paying in to our communities and country is important.