cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 8:33 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 8:20 am
cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 8:02 am
Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 7:48 am
Can we actually discuss something?
SCOTUS thread:
HS Football is a municipal employee, and therefore for our purposes an officer of the "state." At the end of every game, he insists that he gets to carry out, at the 50 year line and in the middle of the field, a 15 second prayer. School district asks him to stop because the public display of prayer by a public employee, in a position from which his actions might be gently but actually coercive, shouldn't be promoting or "establishing" religion. He says, no, these are my free exercise rights. Who should win? Why?
Okay counselor buzzkill, recess is over. IMO the coach should win. The coach is not promoting any established religion. i will admit that alot of Christians... and Muslims take prayer very seriously. IMO this goes strait to the heart of what the 1st amendment is all about... something called free speech. That is the same amendment that allows you to burn our flag in public but don't you dare take a knee and pray....
Nobody is being forced or being coerced into praying with the coach. They are doing so out of a bizarre and outdated concept called "freewill" imagine that... a concept completely foreign to most FLP liberal types especially if free speech contradicts their personal dogma. What is your opinion counselor?? Are you for or against the 1st amendment??
The facts of the case appear to be otherwise, cradle. Apparently there was coercion felt by his players, who felt forced to participate, and if they did not, they would face repercussions. That's their testimony. And yes, the prayers were specifically Christian.
The school said it would be just fine with the coach said his prayer
privately, but not in a manner that pressured others to join him. He refused and increased the pressure and the spectacle.
The coach has a right to free speech, but not to violate the rights of others, nor to perpetual employment.
I disagree a 100% I would never myself choose to pray because a coach on a team chose to do so. The solution is VERY VERY VERY simple. The coach says I'm going to pray now. Those of you who choose to join me are welcome. None of you students have to do anything you don't want to do. FTR, i would never have encouraged or discouraged my own two sons from praying if they chose to do so. Prayer has nothing to do with coercing students. Prayer is an act of faith that christians and muslims and folks of other religious beliefs engage in out of respect for their creator. Why that concept troubles so many of you is beyond me?? I'm more troubled by people who would burn our flag in public and claim that to be a patriotic display of their love for our country... also protected under the 1st amendment. I wonder if fellow flag burners are coerced into joining the flag burning festivities???
The two important values -- free speech/free exercise on the one hand, and the prohibition on the "state" advancing or promoting a religion -- can be reconciled, right? And that is by precluding the coach from the public display of his personal act of thanks to his supreme being. He can go to church; he can close his eyes and make a prayer in his head; he can wait until he gets in his car after the game is over. His free exercise rights are completely unimpeded by the prohibition on the public/with team display of religiosity. His free speech rights are balanced against the [erstwhile?] understanding that the school system cannot be seen as promoting any religion, and must give way to the other First Amendment value that government in a pluralistic society cannot endorse or be seen to endorse a religion.
Establishment of religion is endorsement, even indirect or tacit endorsement. That is what the coach is doing: he is promoting his notion of what pleases God.
'72 and MDLaxFan are right: in former times this is actually a pretty easy call.
C&S, respectfully, I think that you understate or underemphasize the desire for playing time, team "culture," and a sense of belonging to the unit. The coercive power of a charismatic coach or teacher or administrator, particularly one with the power to be seen to reward -- starting roles, playing time, etc. -- is absolutely real.